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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6380 Posts |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3807 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Jun 2018 : 22:30:33
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True, but Sharess was changed because we know that Shar acted on her, and it was a short-lived change. For Helm, he actually suffered the consequences of his clerics going awry, but it was in the form of loss of followers. He--personally--didn't change that much (he has never been goodly, he's always been LN). OTOH, that I recall, the backlash that his church's reputation suffered forced them to work to recover, so the followers kinda had to make things clear and make sure to adhere more closely to the true teachings of Helm.
That said, I agree that a deity can change based on his followers' action (although I wouldn't say that it should be the only possible cause), but it should:
1)be a gradual change
2)I don't see a dramatic change that makes the god no longer themselves happening, simply because those who choose to mainly follow--say--a god of tyranny, aren't going to steer so far from that to become freedom fighters. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 18 Jun 2018 22:31:14 |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
879 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2018 : 00:09:54
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Just for future reference, if anyone wants to know anything about Bast/Sharess please disregard the "pertaining" references in this thread (which are not based on anything even remotely related to canon information) and go to this old repository of knowledge:
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12963
Thanks.
I'm out, but I'll come back in to say if and when someone is utterly wrong on other points and this is not promptly pointed out by other Scribes. |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1565 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2018 : 03:18:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
No one is trying to have both sides of an argument. The new lore about Vhaeraun is entirely contrary to prior lore about Vhaeraun. The argument there is that the new canon is almost a 180 degree turn from the old canon. It'd be like making Bane the god of puppies and sharing.
Bane's pet corgi, Lord Wuffles, is the most feared entity in the Black Bastion. Legend has it he once had a white cat, but it set off his allergies. |
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2018 : 07:09:43
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
No one is trying to have both sides of an argument. The new lore about Vhaeraun is entirely contrary to prior lore about Vhaeraun. The argument there is that the new canon is almost a 180 degree turn from the old canon. It'd be like making Bane the god of puppies and sharing.
Bane's pet corgi, Lord Wuffles, is the most feared entity in the Black Bastion. Legend has it he once had a white cat, but it set off his allergies.
The cat became the Cat Lord thanks to the power of divine snot, and waits longingly for Daddy Bane to come back after being left to play with yarn...
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My Blog: https://www.facebook.com/Johnnys-Tabletop-RPG-Design-Blog-1697026710539149/?ref=aymt_homepage_panel
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Balmar Foghaven
Learned Scribe
Canada
124 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2018 : 13:49:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Aside from Mystra and her Chosen, even the most powerful priest will never speak directly with their deity -- at least, not while that priest is still alive.
And Mask, apparently. IIRC, he allowed Erevis Cale to stab him repeatedly to vent some frustrations. |
"Despair not, for in the end all things shall work out for the best - in at least one timeline." |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36867 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2018 : 15:18:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Balmar Foghaven
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Aside from Mystra and her Chosen, even the most powerful priest will never speak directly with their deity -- at least, not while that priest is still alive.
And Mask, apparently. IIRC, he allowed Erevis Cale to stab him repeatedly to vent some frustrations.
I do not recall that. Not doubting you; just saying I don't remember that from my one reading of those books. I was not a fan of the Erevis Cale books. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 19 Jun 2018 15:19:59 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2018 : 03:57:21
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| Yup, Mask appeared to Cale, disguised at first as a beggar, then revealing himself. He let Cale attack him a bit, to vent frustration, then put a stop to it lol. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2018 : 04:33:05
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
The problem is that gods if a god is dependant upon a portfolio and obedience of worshippers and have the option to control people to the degree that many believe then they would almost certainly do so.
Tyr is the god of law, he cannot allow his faithful to break the law and will prevent and punish those that try. Vhaeraun cannot allow his church to suddenly change into something that supports Lolth and so it cannot happen otherwise Vhaeraun vastly loses his power and risks deific death.
If a being has the power to be aware of almost anything and achieve almost anything then they will almost certainly do so to preserve their own existence.
Or the alternative is that they are not all aware and people can generally behave as they desire allowing all manner of people into a church (the greedy and self serving, the normal and unsure, and the fanatically pious). All a god can do is try and influence things to their desire through signs and portents and the occasional divine servant.
As Wooly said, it is somewhere in between. Mortals also have free will, and the gods know this. They don't control a mortal's every move. Granted, the rigidity of control will vary from deity to deity (Lolthite society vs Eilistraeen, for example). Tyr also holds his followers to more rigid, higher standards, because they are the upholders of law. However, I doubt he would strike down an individual who slipped up, unless he did something *really* bad.
To use a quote from F&A in regards to the spheres (regions on Toril) of influence: A pantheon holds ultimate sway within its own sphere of influence (if it is uncontested). Priests from other pantheons may cross into its sphere of influence, receive spells, and remain relatively unnoticed and unmolested by the deities whose sphere of influence they are in, provided they do not attempt to convert the inhabitants of the region, set up a temple, or engage in holy war. Any of these last activities provokes a pantheon to act in its own self-interest. At this point, most powers have their priesthoods or knightly/military orders take action to eject the foreign influence (most good and nuetral deities) or expunge it (most evil powers).. (pg 4).
Most deities are not going to care about a followers day-to-day activities, or the way in which they choose to worship (though many have basic rituals or preferred placings for their followers to leave offerings), so long as that action does not go against the dogma. Deities expect their clergy to uphold their values (again, some more rigidly than others), but they aren't watching your every single move. This is one of the point's of prayer--it gets the deity's attention (and why some cringe when certain names are invoked). A deity will take notice of "big moves", so to speak, but not every little thing. Some deities are also just more actively involved with their followers than others.
In regards to Vhaeraun: I agree, it's bad writing, and there was no explanation for the change. It was treated (written) as if that was the way it has always been. Really, that's how MToF treated all the ridicluous changes to the drow lore.
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Sweet water and light laughter |
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Cross-pantheon aspects?
