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Archmage of Nowhere
Seeker
USA
64 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Jun 2018 : 14:16:14
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So I wasn't sure how phrase this in the subject but essentially I got in a conversation with a friend of mine about what would be considered a valid servant of a god.
In this case we defined Valid as: Their methods are accepted (If not liked) by the god; They still receive Blessings/Prayers answered by their god; They wholeheartedly believe in their god (Thus aren't faithless or false).
Part of this came about when the question was posed:
"Abstracted from game mechanics: Would a Paladin who performed Lawful Evil actions still receive prayers from his god so long as they still upheld the dogma?"
Its obviously subjective but the situation was this:
A Paladin of Torm and his Order has been tasked with protecting a town ravaged by a nearby tribe or Orcs. The tribe has been smashed several times before but has reformed from the tatters and come back stronger and more aggressive each time. So this time when the Order marches on the tribe he commands them to slay all of them men, woman, and children and from now on any Orc peoples or tribes who settle in the area will be dealt with in the same manner.
To preface I am aware that if the deity was Helm or another Grey themed god it would be no issue but the conversation was directed towards gods with iron clad moralities.
Mandating Genocide being a Evil act (normally, more on this below), would Torm support this as his portfolio is Loyalty, Obedience, and Duty all Grey area concepts to begin with.
- Does his personal feelings trump his cosmic duty?
- There has been sentencing in the past named "Incompetence by Humanity" referring to gods acting on personal feelings or not in the interest of the cosmic order. could Torm refusing his follower here fall under that?
-In publications gods have said straight out that some creatures were entirely evil in nature (Mielikki on orcs was what came to mind) is that just like, a case by case basis for them?
-If they were considered evil by nature, would genocide even be considered evil cosmically?
We were discussing the likelihood of religious schisms were both sides were receiving prayers from their god
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Edited by - Archmage of Nowhere on 05 Jun 2018 14:20:26
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Balmar Foghaven
Learned Scribe
Canada
124 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2018 : 15:21:37
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I have a feeling that Cattie-Brie's pronouncement of Mielikki's final word on orcs might be an example of human fallibility. I suspect that the goddess may have meant something along the lines of "the nature of orcs is inherently evil" which, based on their war-like society, is true. However, being inherently evil doesn't mean that every member of the race will 100% of the time fall under this category. I'm sure Corellon has said "all drow are inherently evil" and here Drizzt is the obvious counter-example.
So perhaps we can't assume that Mielikki actually meant "bring genocide to the orcs" just because her mortal servant interpreted her words that way. |
"Despair not, for in the end all things shall work out for the best - in at least one timeline." |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2018 : 15:30:55
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This gets into the question of inherent evil versus learned evil, and also gets into the question of when or if genocide or total war is justified.
A related issue is that evil to deity A and evil to deity B are not necessarily the same.
Me, I'd say that even for a paladin of Torm, advocating the murder of non-combatants is going too far. |
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Balmar Foghaven
Learned Scribe
Canada
124 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2018 : 15:31:16
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| As for the original question in regards to Torm, it would depend on the paladin's sworn oath. If the oath was to protect, then I assume that killing the orcs in self-defense and the defense of the town would be fine. However, leading a retributive strike on the clan's families would be crossing the line IMO. Genocide is genocide, regardless of the disposition and alignment of the victims. |
"Despair not, for in the end all things shall work out for the best - in at least one timeline." |
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Archmage of Nowhere
Seeker
USA
64 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2018 : 15:31:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Balmar Foghaven
I have a feeling that Cattie-Brie's pronouncement of Mielikki's final word on orcs might be an example of human fallibility. I suspect that the goddess may have meant something along the lines of "the nature of orcs is inherently evil" which, based on their war-like society, is true. However, being inherently evil doesn't mean that every member of the race will 100% of the time fall under this category. I'm sure Corellon has said "all drow are inherently evil" and here Drizzt is the obvious counter-example.
So perhaps we can't assume that Mielikki actually meant "bring genocide to the orcs" just because her mortal servant interpreted her words that way.
I agree, but that's the crux of the conversation. She is still held in favor by Mielikki even though she did interpret her words in a rather genocidal way. She wasn't a priest so we don't have a direct example of her losing the support of Mielikki for it or not unfortunately, but I agree with you. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2018 : 19:16:38
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I agree about Mielikki. Genocide is not in her nature, and actually goes against her dogma.
It is going to depend on the deity. Shevarash encourages the genocide of drow (at least until 5e. Now, he is simply the elven god of vengeance, rather than vengeance against the drow). For a deity like Torm...as others have said, if it was in self-defense or defense of a town. However, I don't think he would support going out and actively raiding every orc camp. That said, for deities like Tyr and Torm, the lines can blur into radicalization, especially if there is a sense of justice involved, however skewed it might be. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Archmage of Nowhere
Seeker
USA
64 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2018 : 19:57:59
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So I think to help focus the topic because we could potentially talk about it on a god by god basis.
Do you think the gods can be flexible on the morality of the action so long as the god's portfolio doesn't directly contradict those actions?
Specifically to the point were they would grant you spells, thus supporting your actions.
The reason I am unsure is due to my favorite deific tale, Kelemvor. It really tried to impress the idea that There is NOTHING human about being a god. So while the gods are characters should we consider them shackled by their own portfolios. In this case Torm who would not support the actions of this paladin based on his personality but his portfolio does not contradict the actions taken and the creatures affected are of a evil nature.
Edit - Similar to Mystra and her support of evil wizards despite her Neutral Good nature. |
Edited by - Archmage of Nowhere on 05 Jun 2018 19:59:34 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2018 : 20:26:28
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The gods are not unthinking, unfeeling beings. They have personalities and desires (however mortals may not always be able to understand said desires). Deities also tend to look at things long-term (YMMV), so if genocide is a step in the "right" direction for said goal, then perhaps they would allow some flexibility. Genocide goes against Mielikki's doctrine, so it confuses me a little that she is condoning it, however, if I think about it, perhaps it is because goblins and orcs are viewed as inherently evil, and have been known to destroy nature, something that is sacred to Mielikki. If killing them helps protect the natural world, then perhaps she allows for the graying of morality.
I do think it comes down to a god-by-god basis, as some just wouldn't allow it, period, and others would say, "yeah, go for it!" And, then, perhaps others, like Mielikki, allow for the blurring of lines in certain circumstances. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2018 : 20:31:48
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I think the gods are more importantly representatives (well, the ultimate representative of) certain dogmas rather than certain alignments. Any action a believer enacts should be judged based on what the god represents and secondarily towards what we Earth human beings today consider to be good. This is going to get to deep into rw religion/faith for me, which I desperately want to avoid - but I think there are absolute “goods and evils” and ones that are subjective based on the culture (or in this case the fictional Realmsian deity’s) particular dogma.
Applying this specifically - genocide is evil to us, but this is a fantasy deity. Torn or Meilikki or whomever might think it fits right in with their particular sphere of influence. I wouldn’t sweat whatever decision you make too much.
On another note - this makes me miss the old alignment qualifiers from 3e. “Often” and “Always” or “Usually” helped to understand what a particular race of creatures was all about. |
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Edited by - Seethyr on 05 Jun 2018 20:34:21 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2018 : 21:10:55
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FR orcs have never been 100% evil. In 5e, Mearls even addressed it specifically in one of their videos.
Honestly, when it comes to lore, I don't give too much credit to what Salvatore does. Especially as of late, he made huge mistakes that could have been a avoided by a mere google search. He just does whatever he wants for his story. If anything, I'd say that Catti just spoke out of her own bias.
Mielikki has no reason to believe that killing orc babies is ok. Think that Eldath, one of Miekikki's closest allies, has a whole subrace of orcs worshiping her. Eilistraee, another close ally of Mielikki, firmly believes that everyone can live in harmony. Why would Mielikki be in favor of genocide? |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 05 Jun 2018 21:13:57 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2018 : 21:26:58
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| ^That's a good point. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Archmage of Nowhere
Seeker
USA
64 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2018 : 21:45:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
If anything, I'd say that Catti just spoke out of her own bias.
Mielikki has no reason to believe that killing orc babies is ok. Think that Eldath, one of Miekikki's closest allies, has a whole subrace of orcs worshiping her. Eilistraee, another close ally of Mielikki, firmly believes that everyone can live in harmony. Why would Mielikki be in favor of genocide?
I mean the topic wasn't really about whether or not Mielikki condoned genocide. It was expressing that, in her own words, she condemned the orcs as having a evil nature. What mortals do with those words is their business.
Why would Mielikki govern her faith based on the values and portfolios of other gods? That doesn't really make any sense. Tons of gods have relations, animosity, and friendships with each other but don't have similar or opposing portfolios or dogmas. There are churches that have conflict and strife with each other and the gods themselves are friends.
They are characters, yes
They have relationships that effect their decision making, yes
The question is to what extent can their actions be based on their feelings as characters before they MUST adhere to their cosmic duties as gods. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2018 : 22:10:43
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It's not about governing her faith based on other deities. It's about having undeniable proof that the statement "orcs are irredeemably evil" is wrong, about the proof being under her own eyes, and--on top of that--supported by 2 close friends of hers.
Mielikki's dogma is: protect nature and live in harmony with it. It also states that all sentient creatures can live in harmony with the wilds. Nothing more, nothing less. It's not about defending people from the orcs or whatever. Nothing about orcs being 100% evil in her portfolio either, so no cosmic duty to adhere to. If you assume that protect nature means killing orcs, then it must also be about killing humans, because they too destroy nature to build their cities.
Salvatore really pulled that out of thin air. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 05 Jun 2018 22:12:01 |
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Archmage of Nowhere
Seeker
USA
64 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2018 : 22:22:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
It's not about governing her faith based on other deities. It's about having undeniable proof that the statement "orcs are irredeemably evil" is wrong, about the proof being under her own eyes, and--on top of that--supported by 2 close friends of hers.
Mielikki's dogma is: protect nature and live in harmony with it. It also states that all sentient creatures can live in harmony with the wilds. Nothing more, nothing less. It's not about defending people from the orcs or whatever. Nothing about orcs being 100% evil in her portfolio either, so no cosmic duty to adhere to. If you assume that protect nature means killing orcs, then it must also be about killing humans, because they too destroy nature to build their cities.
Salvatore really pulled that out of thin air.
So I get that you dont like that Salvatore had her say that and I agree that of all gods she probably shouldn't have been the one to make that statement. But she did, in not so unmistakable terms say that orc kind is evil. There are good orcs and it is supported by her friends but in her opinion they are evil by nature. *shrug* not a lot of wiggle room.
What I find far more interesting a statement you made is that her followers could rationalize attacking orc civilization just as easily as human civilization. Which is a fantastic point, they could. Thats what this topic is about, if a extremist group of Mielikki rangers or druids systematically attacked towns and cities that were in fact not living in harmony with nature could she condemn them? |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2018 : 22:31:57
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Yes, that is indeed an interesting point. What Salvatore did wa just trying to enforce his and/or WotC's view, and he did by warping a deity and adding nothing to her character.
Now, onto the other topic, it depends. I think that Mielikki would tolerate human civilization to a point. Is this civilization trying to take only as little as they need? Are they making sure that they don't kill animals in the process? Are they making sure that there aren't dryads in that forest? Also, has diplomacy been tried before the attack? And so on. if everything else failed and the humans went on destroying forests, then yes, I think that Mielikki could forgive the violence committed by her followers, because--in her eyes--it would be a violent act made to stop cruelty. That's because Mielikki is good, but not in the sense that she's about being a generally "good person". She has a specific goal and concept.
Most humans give far more value to a human life than they associate to other creatures' lives. In Mielikki's eyes, that scale of values is far different. That means that the woodcutters would see the rangers of Mielikki as murderers, while Mielikki would see the woodcutters as murderers and tyrants to be stopped. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 05 Jun 2018 22:37:04 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2018 : 23:24:09
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I agree about Mielikki. Genocide is not in her nature, and actually goes against her dogma.
It is going to depend on the deity. Shevarash encourages the genocide of drow (at least until 5e. Now, he is simply the elven god of vengeance, rather than vengeance against the drow). For a deity like Torm...as others have said, if it was in self-defense or defense of a town. However, I don't think he would support going out and actively raiding every orc camp. That said, for deities like Tyr and Torm, the lines can blur into radicalization, especially if there is a sense of justice involved, however skewed it might be.
So, if Shevarash is the elven god of vengeance, and Kiaransalee is the drow goddess of vengeance..... how hot would it be if the two of them got it on.... you know, a little Marvin Gay, a little bloodwine, etc...  |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2018 : 23:50:59
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| LOL I don't think Shev would go for that XD |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2018 : 23:56:03
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| Even in MToF, from what I've seen, Shev still has the "hatred for the drow" portfolio? |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2018 : 00:29:15
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| Shev doesn't get a description, he's just listed under the elven deities, and all it says about his portfolio (or province, as it is called in MToF) is "vengeance, loss, hatred". So, it sounds like, as of 5e, they changed his portfolio to just vengeance in general. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2018 : 00:39:02
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| Ah, yes, you're right. Even in SCAG he doesn't get hatred for drow. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Corruption
Acolyte
32 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2018 : 12:36:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Archmage of Nowhere
So I get that you dont like that Salvatore had her say that and I agree that of all gods she probably shouldn't have been the one to make that statement. But she did, in not so unmistakable terms say that orc kind is evil. There are good orcs and it is supported by her friends but in her opinion they are evil by nature. *shrug* not a lot of wiggle room.
What I find far more interesting a statement you made is that her followers could rationalize attacking orc civilization just as easily as human civilization. Which is a fantastic point, they could. Thats what this topic is about, if a extremist group of Mielikki rangers or druids systematically attacked towns and cities that were in fact not living in harmony with nature could she condemn them?
There is actually an Elf group that seeks to kill all humans for their destruction of Nature
According to the Players Handbook, in refferance to Half Orcs, it mentions that even Half Orcs can feel the influence of Gruumsh in their blood.
Now this can be surpressed, or even directed to good. I remember reading one novel with an Orc Paladin of Tyr!
Dieties are required to act in the interest of their Domains. If the Orcs are upsetting the balance, then nature Gods would more against them. If they are not, then I don't see the nature Gods getting involved. In fact, I can imagine that would appreciate theOrcs living in wilderness, preserving the balance of Nature, then removing them to allow some humans to come in and destroy the forrests!
Now, what makes a valid servant? That was the original question, and we got side tracked.
One would be someone recognized as a servant by the Diety, like a Cleric, Shaman, Paladin, Warlock someone else shown their favor.
In a way, Drizzt was a servant of Lloth, doing her bidding, even if he was unaware of it and opposed her.
This was setting up the fight between the Drow city, and the alliance of Deep Gnomes, Dwarves, and humans. Part of the aim was the destruction of the Deep Gnome city as it was preventing the Drow city from spreading out and going chaotic. Another move to bring the chaos Lloth desired was the death of the Matron Mother of the First House.
There is even a recognized herasy in that city named after Drizzt's House!
Some priestesses of Lloth dare not oppose him in case he is doing Lloth's will!
However, he was never properly recognized, so he would be a grey area. |
When all, even Gods, must die, then live a life worth living |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2018 : 12:40:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Even in MToF, from what I've seen, Shev still has the "hatred for the drow" portfolio?
Yeah, but hate sex.... yeah, baby.... speaking of babies... the love child of Shevarash and Kiaransalee... yeah, I'm gonna say that's where the shadow elves of Mystara came from |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2018 : 13:18:26
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Ahh, the whole "baby goblins" thing came to live again. Good, good. 
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Shev doesn't get a description, he's just listed under the elven deities, and all it says about his portfolio (or province, as it is called in MToF) is "vengeance, loss, hatred". So, it sounds like, as of 5e, they changed his portfolio to just vengeance in general.
Now that he outlived his usefulness, could Kiaransalee annoyed at such a "colleague" catch him on some misstep and terminate with extreme prejudice, please? 
For one, the Revenancer needs some fresh "street cred" after being evicted by resurrected Orcus and living on the fringe of Lolth's Web like her poor relative for a while.
There's no way she doesn't have a long and venomous grudge against Shevarash of all entities. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Archmage of Nowhere
Seeker
USA
64 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2018 : 14:52:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Corruption
quote:
Originally posted by Archmage of Nowhere
So I get that you dont like that Salvatore had her say that and I agree that of all gods she probably shouldn't have been the one to make that statement. But she did, in not so unmistakable terms say that orc kind is evil. There are good orcs and it is supported by her friends but in her opinion they are evil by nature. *shrug* not a lot of wiggle room.
What I find far more interesting a statement you made is that her followers could rationalize attacking orc civilization just as easily as human civilization. Which is a fantastic point, they could. Thats what this topic is about, if a extremist group of Mielikki rangers or druids systematically attacked towns and cities that were in fact not living in harmony with nature could she condemn them?
There is actually an Elf group that seeks to kill all humans for their destruction of Nature
According to the Players Handbook, in refferance to Half Orcs, it mentions that even Half Orcs can feel the influence of Gruumsh in their blood.
Now this can be surpressed, or even directed to good. I remember reading one novel with an Orc Paladin of Tyr!
Dieties are required to act in the interest of their Domains. If the Orcs are upsetting the balance, then nature Gods would more against them. If they are not, then I don't see the nature Gods getting involved. In fact, I can imagine that would appreciate theOrcs living in wilderness, preserving the balance of Nature, then removing them to allow some humans to come in and destroy the forrests!
Now, what makes a valid servant? That was the original question, and we got side tracked.
One would be someone recognized as a servant by the Diety, like a Cleric, Shaman, Paladin, Warlock someone else shown their favor.
In a way, Drizzt was a servant of Lloth, doing her bidding, even if he was unaware of it and opposed her.
This was setting up the fight between the Drow city, and the alliance of Deep Gnomes, Dwarves, and humans. Part of the aim was the destruction of the Deep Gnome city as it was preventing the Drow city from spreading out and going chaotic. Another move to bring the chaos Lloth desired was the death of the Matron Mother of the First House.
There is even a recognized herasy in that city named after Drizzt's House!
Some priestesses of Lloth dare not oppose him in case he is doing Lloth's will!
However, he was never properly recognized, so he would be a grey area.
That's what I find interesting is the difference between someone the god is currently interested in / using and a full priest.
So as a example lets take those extremist elves from your comment, if they came into conflict with a more moderate church or ranger group would Mielikki be justified in intervening in any way?
Granting one side's prayer and not the other; Actively working against a distasteful element of her mortal church etc... or are gods more shackled to the outcome? |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2018 : 19:16:58
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Even in MToF, from what I've seen, Shev still has the "hatred for the drow" portfolio?
Yeah, but hate sex.... yeah, baby.... speaking of babies... the love child of Shevarash and Kiaransalee... yeah, I'm gonna say that's where the shadow elves of Mystara came from
*snorts* whether you hate or love sex, I doubt Shev would actively seek sexual relations with anyone in the drow pantheon lol. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2018 : 19:22:14
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Ahh, the whole "baby goblins" thing came to live again. Good, good.
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Shev doesn't get a description, he's just listed under the elven deities, and all it says about his portfolio (or province, as it is called in MToF) is "vengeance, loss, hatred". So, it sounds like, as of 5e, they changed his portfolio to just vengeance in general.
Now that he outlived his usefulness, could Kiaransalee annoyed at such a "colleague" catch him on some misstep and terminate with extreme prejudice, please?
For one, the Revenancer needs some fresh "street cred" after being evicted by resurrected Orcus and living on the fringe of Lolth's Web like her poor relative for a while.
There's no way she doesn't have a long and venomous grudge against Shevarash of all entities.
Actually, even though I like drow and don't relish a genocidal cult targeting them, I find Sheverash and his followers to be fascinating, and I am kind of bummed he's been sidelined. Then again, perhaps just having him as an elven god of vengeance is for the best.
Of course, this just shows another WotC dichotomy. On the one hand, they are favoring the "all drow are evil except for Drizzt" approach, but at the same time, ignoring a religion (albeit a small one) that specifically targets these "evil" drow. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2018 : 23:22:35
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| yeah, they are one of the sub-races |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2018 : 03:19:08
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I'd suggest you check out this website on alignments,http://easydamus.com/alignment.html, it collates nearly all the official and semiofficial (Dragon magazine articles) on the alignments. I think you will find that wholesale slaughter/genocide of intelligent creatures is a no no even for neutral alignments. It's just wrong. Now casualties of war, might be more acceptable to neutral alignments, but slaughter is still slaughter.
(I also happen to really like the discussion of "real" alignments as it plays well with the game's alignments IMO.) |
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Archmage of Nowhere
Seeker
USA
64 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2018 : 12:45:16
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quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
I'd suggest you check out this website on alignments,http://easydamus.com/alignment.html, it collates nearly all the official and semiofficial (Dragon magazine articles) on the alignments. I think you will find that wholesale slaughter/genocide of intelligent creatures is a no no even for neutral alignments. It's just wrong. Now casualties of war, might be more acceptable to neutral alignments, but slaughter is still slaughter.
(I also happen to really like the discussion of "real" alignments as it plays well with the game's alignments IMO.)
The topic was more about if a deity would support a priest (Support being granting their prayers for spellcasting) if they were doing something that was
A) In favor of the god's portfolio/domain
B) In direct conflict with the god's personal alignment
Example being Torm who is LG but whose portfolio has 0% to do with being good. Duty, Loyaly, and obedience are all neutral concepts.
There was a example earlier that I hope gets some citation of Mielikki supporting a Anti-Human group of rangers which would be in favor of "Yes, gods will grant spells to off-alignment organizations" now my only question is how does this work with Schisms in a church. when two factions are both working in favor of a portfolio but one matches the alignment of their god and the other doesn't.
Can the deity pick and choose who he wants to win with his support or are their hands tied by the cosmic shackles of their positon and they just have to wait and see who win granting the prayers of both. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2018 : 13:16:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Archmage of Nowhere
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
I'd suggest you check out this website on alignments,http://easydamus.com/alignment.html, it collates nearly all the official and semiofficial (Dragon magazine articles) on the alignments. I think you will find that wholesale slaughter/genocide of intelligent creatures is a no no even for neutral alignments. It's just wrong. Now casualties of war, might be more acceptable to neutral alignments, but slaughter is still slaughter.
(I also happen to really like the discussion of "real" alignments as it plays well with the game's alignments IMO.)
The topic was more about if a deity would support a priest (Support being granting their prayers for spellcasting) if they were doing something that was
A) In favor of the god's portfolio/domain
B) In direct conflict with the god's personal alignment
Example being Torm who is LG but whose portfolio has 0% to do with being good. Duty, Loyaly, and obedience are all neutral concepts.
There was a example earlier that I hope gets some citation of Mielikki supporting a Anti-Human group of rangers which would be in favor of "Yes, gods will grant spells to off-alignment organizations" now my only question is how does this work with Schisms in a church. when two factions are both working in favor of a portfolio but one matches the alignment of their god and the other doesn't.
Can the deity pick and choose who he wants to win with his support or are their hands tied by the cosmic shackles of their positon and they just have to wait and see who win granting the prayers of both.
NOTE: in what I'm about to say, the genocide thing is an out. I'm just talking about a follower of Torm putting loyalty/duty before good for what people might call "gray areas" (again putting people in a camp and slaughtering them has no gray area). For a lay worshipper of Torm, the ideas of gray areas would definitely hold. For a divine champion of Torm (i.e. the prestige class), it could very well hold, as your tenets of faith are the only things of importance. For a cleric or favored soul of Torm, again, depending on the situation... it might hold. For a paladin of Torm though, their vows are first and foremost to the tenets of a paladin and not their deity. A paladin that breaks his OWN vows who follows Torm... I'm seeing atonement in their future (and Torm might be a particular stickler here, because in essence he's a god of taking and keeping vows).
However, I think this is the topic where you wanted to discuss various deities. Tyr and Torm are two deities that I see as very much about your vow / keeping your end of the bargain. Other deities having paladins may forgive things that may break their paladin tenets if its in service to the religion. For instance, a paladin of Mystra who steal a book of vile necromantic magic and returns it to the church of Mystra instead of seeing to its destruction. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 07 Jun 2018 22:22:47 |
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Deities: on Gray Areas
