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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Jun 2018 : 23:44:55
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Yes, don't buy anything, so they stop publishing anything and we thus destroy the thing we love. That makes sense. 
Not all of us bash every single thing WotC does. And not all of us are interested in entirely rewriting and changing every part of a setting we claim to love, despite almost continuously bitching about it.
Me, I'm going to be over here giving every bit of new Realmslore a shot. I'll evaluate it on its merits, use what's good, and disregard that which isn't. I'm not going to pre-judge everything as soon as its announced. I'm not going to jump on the herd hate bandwagon. I'm going to give it all a fair shot.
And I'm going to hold out the hope that things will come around again, and that development of the published setting will get back to those who care about it. It's obviously not going to happen soon, but it'll never happen if we just bitch and don't buy anything.
If you look at something that's published and then opt not to buy it, that's one thing. Blindly refusing to even look, or to even consider that it might be worthwhile? That's just childish -- especially since you could miss some really awesome stuff because you're too busy with the petulant whining.
No company in the world is going to bother trying to cater to someone who just stomps their feet and screams like a little kid. And heck, even my seven year old is more mature than that, and can be persuaded to try something new rather than turning his nose up at everything.
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Varl
Learned Scribe
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2018 : 14:26:02
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quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
That said, if I had to guess, I think the more likely issue is that FR is so big that it became an impediment to playing the game (much like the implicit requirement for minis in 3.5 and especially 4E caused some to not play or even start playing) for some (probably a lot, especially more casual players) who felt they needed to know all the lore so they don't want to overproduce. I think this is partially why they got out of novels. In the beginning it was a great selling, ahem, novelty, but over time saturated the setting with so much lore (and again became another impediment to new players) you needed the PhD in Realmslore that we all have to get it right.
Getting out of producing novels because they're 'overlore'd'? Seriously? Why do novels have to be official lore? I'm currently reading Red Magic of the Harper series, and I finished up Parched Sea and Elfshadow, both of which I could easily conclude were stories self-contained. Sure, they have some new NPCs, spells and other "lore" I could add to my game, but I don't read them for any possible lore I can mine out of them; I read them for the stories. The crunch is a positive side effect of reading the stories.
Why do stories have to be internally consistent? Fantasy fiction if replete with exceptions to the rules. You can either choose to use said exceptions in your tabletop game or not. That isn't a WotC choice. For all the loremasters out there that might find issue with any single exception, I know a lot of us already have made a choice such as that when we decided the changes made post-2e FR never happened. So, to expect fiction authors to have to know all the lore of the Realms before they write a novel for it is silly. All they need to know are the players, locales and events they're writing about within the self-contained manuscript. |
I'm on a permanent vacation to the soul. -Tash Sultana |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2018 : 14:37:00
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| From what I've heard from long-time TSR/WotC people, the issue was that the company was never comfortable with novels -- because they regarded themselves as a gaming company, not a novel-publishing company. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2018 : 17:38:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Varl
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
That said, if I had to guess, I think the more likely issue is that FR is so big that it became an impediment to playing the game (much like the implicit requirement for minis in 3.5 and especially 4E caused some to not play or even start playing) for some (probably a lot, especially more casual players) who felt they needed to know all the lore so they don't want to overproduce. I think this is partially why they got out of novels. In the beginning it was a great selling, ahem, novelty, but over time saturated the setting with so much lore (and again became another impediment to new players) you needed the PhD in Realmslore that we all have to get it right.
Getting out of producing novels because they're 'overlore'd'? Seriously? Why do novels have to be official lore? I'm currently reading Red Magic of the Harper series, and I finished up Parched Sea and Elfshadow, both of which I could easily conclude were stories self-contained. Sure, they have some new NPCs, spells and other "lore" I could add to my game, but I don't read them for any possible lore I can mine out of them; I read them for the stories. The crunch is a positive side effect of reading the stories.
Why do stories have to be internally consistent? Fantasy fiction if replete with exceptions to the rules. You can either choose to use said exceptions in your tabletop game or not. That isn't a WotC choice. For all the loremasters out there that might find issue with any single exception, I know a lot of us already have made a choice such as that when we decided the changes made post-2e FR never happened. So, to expect fiction authors to have to know all the lore of the Realms before they write a novel for it is silly. All they need to know are the players, locales and events they're writing about within the self-contained manuscript.
Yes and no. It's fun to read about lore in the novels (I learned quite a bit of lore from the novels, then checked source books for more info and background). Often, the novels drove the setting forward. I understand this may not have been the best approach, as the novels were ultimately secondary, but I enjoyed it.
The novels should at least honor the setting. I read a lot of fantasy, but when I read a Realms novel, I want to be able to feel like it's a *Realms* novel, not just any fantasy novel (and any fantasy series should have a well established world, anyway). I agree the authors don't need to know all the lore, but they should know the lore for the area, time period, and races they are writing about (and check if they are uncertain about something). |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 04 Jun 2018 17:40:32 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2018 : 18:16:30
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I agree the authors don't need to know all the lore, but they should know the lore for the area, time period, and races they are writing about (and check if they are uncertain about something).
Starting in the 3E era, we saw a lot less emphasis given to maintaining continuity with what had come before, up to and including changes literally made on the whim of the author/designer. I think that blowing up the setting, having a timejump, and then staying vague on things is more of that same attitude.
And it is my opinion that it's not how daunting the amount of Realmslore is, it's that some of the designers simply don't recognize the value of continuity -- so after an edition of disregarding it, they simply decided to chuck it out the window and start from scratch.
I don't have any current Realms designers/authors in mind when I say this, though -- this is my opinion after watching the development of 3E and 4E. I don't have enough information to make that call on the current group, though with what the Chult book did to Ras Nsi and with what I've been reading about changes to Vhaeraun, I can't say I'm convinced that this corporate attitude has greatly changed. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2018 : 22:10:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I agree the authors don't need to know all the lore, but they should know the lore for the area, time period, and races they are writing about (and check if they are uncertain about something).
Starting in the 3E era, we saw a lot less emphasis given to maintaining continuity with what had come before, up to and including changes literally made on the whim of the author/designer. I think that blowing up the setting, having a timejump, and then staying vague on things is more of that same attitude.
Which is why I said that the authors should at least know the history of the region and race they are writing about. Not saying they do (thus the lack of continuity), but they should. If they can't be expected to know all the Realmslore, then they should at least be up to date on whatever it is they *are* are writing about. For instance, if I were writing about dwarves, I would make sure I knew their culture, history, gods, big events that have taken place, the location I am writing in, etc. And checking with editors to make sure I am accurate. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2018 : 22:14:15
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I agree the authors don't need to know all the lore, but they should know the lore for the area, time period, and races they are writing about (and check if they are uncertain about something).
Starting in the 3E era, we saw a lot less emphasis given to maintaining continuity with what had come before, up to and including changes literally made on the whim of the author/designer. I think that blowing up the setting, having a timejump, and then staying vague on things is more of that same attitude.
Which is why I said that the authors should at least know the history of the region and race they are writing about. Not saying they do (thus the lack of continuity), but they should. If they can't be expected to know all the Realmslore, then they should at least be up to date on whatever it is they *are* are writing about. For instance, if I were writing about dwarves, I would make sure I knew their culture, history, gods, big events that have taken place, the location I am writing in, etc. And checking with editors to make sure I am accurate.
Oh, I agree that they should -- I'm just saying that once 3E hit, that became less and less important from a design point of view. |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2018 : 02:41:08
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I have to say there were plenty of inconsistencies in pre-3E lore. Basically it took Steven Schend and Eric Boyd to clean them up throughout 2E and Eric to try to continue that process through 3E.
The very nature of the Old Empires's Babylonian, Egyptian, and Greek cultures (which were not generally contemporaries) both fascinates me and makes me cringe, not to mention the I series of modules, unceremoniously shoved into the Durpar region with gods from across Planescape that had no reason to be there. Heck the whole reason we have a St. Dionysius of Ilmater is a goof. And how many Arabian-esque cultures do we have scattered Gods know where. Oh, and the Utter East's mix of Ffolk and Northmen who somehow teamed up and sailed halfway around the world to settle because they decided to either retrofit a videogame into the Realms or because the video game company had no idea about the Realms. And don't get me started on the Blade Kingdoms. Now, I say that only in defense of the inconsistencies that have popped up in every edition. I don't think 3E was any worse or better in that regard. 4E was like a different world in my opinion. In the end, it what's the clean up crews do with it that makes it work or no, and some of it has turned into gold. Steven was the avatar of this. He constantly argued that every consistency was a reason for a good story, and I think he was right.
I think it's fairer to say that 3E and 4E (and now 5E) were less lore focused than 2E (and maybe 1E, but 1E was just new, most of the supplements were pretty skinny), especially with Steven, Eric, and Julia Martin in particular. The three of them also relied heavily on the predecessor to this community the REALMSListserv where a lot of us started. For that matter, there were others from the 3E era (like Sean Reynolds or Rich Baker) who sometimes consulted these boards or certain folks on the boards. In 4E, it appears that Brian James, Eric, and others got consulted sometimes.
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2018 : 03:02:16
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| There is bound to be inconsistencies. It is a shared world, after all. But there used to be the sense that enough designers cared about the setting not to mess it up completely (YMMV). |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2018 : 03:17:38
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quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
I have to say there were plenty of inconsistencies in pre-3E lore. Basically it took Steven Schend and Eric Boyd to clean them up throughout 2E and Eric to try to continue that process through 3E.
You hit the nail on the head right there -- there were inconsistencies in pre-3E lore, but someone was trying to clean them up. Some of the 3E designers didn't care if there were inconsistencies or not -- and they cared less if they created such inconsistencies themselves. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2018 : 04:09:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-The weird thing is, with things like the FR wiki and online communities and other in-house stuff we don't have access to/know about, it's easier than ever to keep internal continuity.
This is why it's obvious that they simply don't care. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2018 : 13:48:08
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| Let's face it folks... I've been watching the realms since it came out. I can't keep up with everything that's happening. Hell, as I've stated, its only in the past few years when the railroad slowed down that I've started to catch up with all the 2e and 3e stuff that was published... much less the 4e changes... meanwhile, they're rolling out new 5e changes, and I'm not able to keep up with all of them. I have probably 3 years worth of dungeon magazines that I've never even opened, yet I'd still be happily buying them if they were still publishing. At the same time, I'm talking about my own developments I'd like to see for the realms. But, that's also why I love the realms. I love designing, even if its only for my own entertainment. I love sharing ideas here, because I occasionally see someone else pick up on them and develop something. Sometimes it even makes it into the games (for instance, I can't help but notice that all my talk about jungles and Katashaka and Lopango and Maztica, etc... and suddenly a book comes out for Chult of all places). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Balmar Foghaven
Learned Scribe
Canada
124 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2018 : 17:33:06
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
There is bound to be inconsistencies. It is a shared world, after all. But there used to be the sense that enough designers cared about the setting not to mess it up completely (YMMV).
Exactly, inconsistencies are one of the drawbacks of having a shared world. That being said, the Realms is one of the best shared settings I've ever read, and is hands-down my favorite despite the small lore oversights. My second favorite is the Thieves' World setting, which surprisingly has few inconsistencies, because its lore seems to be made up on the spot as stories move along (not a bad way to work with shared settings). |
"Despair not, for in the end all things shall work out for the best - in at least one timeline." |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2018 : 20:23:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Balmar Foghaven
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
There is bound to be inconsistencies. It is a shared world, after all. But there used to be the sense that enough designers cared about the setting not to mess it up completely (YMMV).
Exactly, inconsistencies are one of the drawbacks of having a shared world. That being said, the Realms is one of the best shared settings I've ever read, and is hands-down my favorite despite the small lore oversights. My second favorite is the Thieves' World setting, which surprisingly has few inconsistencies, because its lore seems to be made up on the spot as stories move along (not a bad way to work with shared settings).
That's exactly how inconsistencies happen, though... If author A says Bahb Nounsilver is a fighter, and author B decides he needs Bahb to be a rogue, then there's an inconsistency. Now, if author B checks, and either writes into the story how Bahb changed careers, or decides to make up a new NPC, Rahb Goldverb, then it's all good. |
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Any sources for the current status of the setting?
