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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
572 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Apr 2018 : 02:22:05
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According to the Realmspace accessory, the Arcane have a Spelljamming Dock in the Wu Pi Te Shao mountains, but all of the AD&D maps of the area I'm aware of were published before Realmspace. Did The Dock ever make it onto any later maps?
Jeff
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My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2018 : 03:07:46
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quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
According to the Realmspace accessory, the Arcane have a Spelljamming Dock in the Wu Pi Te Shao mountains, but all of the AD&D maps of the area I'm aware of were published before Realmspace. Did The Dock ever make it onto any later maps?
Jeff
I'm not sure that area ever got mapped after that.
Realmspace also mentions spelljammers landing at Lantan, and later write-ups of the island didn't say a word about that, and Realmspace talks about Waterdeep becoming more popular among spelljammers -- another thing that was ignored in later publications.
Those are some of the reasons I disregard anything Realmspace has to say about Toril. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 26 Apr 2018 03:08:47 |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2018 : 04:05:55
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| I kinda wonder if SPelljammers was even liked by wotc...... |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2018 : 05:22:06
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| Spelljammer is in some serious need of a reboot - mechanically definitely, but even moreso lore wise as far as it pertains to the Forgotten Realms. Been waiting since the early 90s... |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2018 : 06:17:33
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Canon maps? NO.
It made it onto my very old Utter East map (embarrassing to look at now), hosted here at the keep, as well as my old Hordelands map (which did get one update once, so its not quite as bad), which is also, fortunately, hosted here at the 'Keep.
So NO, not any canon maps. Not even the trail maps, FRIA, or the Fonstad FR Atlas. I placed it on what looked to me like the highest point (going by the Karen Fonstad maps). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
572 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2018 : 07:33:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm not sure that area ever got mapped after that.
I suspected as much. I couldn't recall any publications covering the area, but I figured I might have missed something. The isolated nature of The Dock means it is easily usable even if people feel other information isn't.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Canon maps? NO.
It made it onto my very old Utter East map (embarrassing to look at now), hosted here at the keep, as well as my old Hordelands map (which did get one update once, so its not quite as bad), which is also, fortunately, hosted here at the 'Keep.
So NO, not any canon maps. Not even the trail maps, FRIA, or the Fonstad FR Atlas. I placed it on what looked to me like the highest point (going by the Karen Fonstad maps).
Isn't that a bit far north for the Wu Pi Te Shao mountains? Height doesn't seem to really be an issue in the description. Thanks for the links though. :)
Jeff |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2018 : 19:31:59
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quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
Isn't that a bit far north for the Wu Pi Te Shao mountains? Height doesn't seem to really be an issue in the description. Thanks for the links though. :)
Jeff
Not really - the whole chain is the Wu Pi Te Shao Mountains. Parts of it have their own, 'lesser' names, but the whole range is known by that.
I just wanted to get it both centralized (east-to-west), so its really remote (in 'the middle of the impassable mountains'), and also on the glacier itself, which is another very good defense against Torillians accidentally stumbling upon it. If we moved it further south, we start to encroach on other 'realms' within the mountain chain, like the fabled land of Langdarma & the Kingdom of Nix, etc (from Double Diamond novels and the Blood & Magic video game). There is some back-and-forth going on across those mountains down there, so I felt it was best to just avoid the south entirely.
The only thing near my location is the Cave of Monkey, and he probably hangs out at the bar in the Starport (I'm picturing a 'Creature Catina' a'la SW). 
_________________________________________________________________________________________________
I have some purely homebrew lore myself to go with The Dock - its the top of the highest mountain in the range (ya know... closer to space an all that - I'm thinking at least a third higher than Everest), and the Arcane (Mercane) have added some magitech machinery to provide a stable atmosphere (so no breathing problems due to altitude). In fact, it would be an adaption of a SJ-helm, because I am picturing a 'bubble' around the starport (maybe something thats a cross between a helm and mythal-like field). Anyhow, the mountain's 'peak' is actually a large, completely flat plain, and thats how the Arcane found it (I have more about that...). You see, a Netherese arcanist - wanting to build the largest enclave possible - found the largest mountain he could and sheared off the top.
But as I said, that part if PURE hmebrew - it connects to some stuff I did in K-T with an Archwizard named Enrev Seluj. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 26 Apr 2018 19:36:07 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2018 : 20:09:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
Isn't that a bit far north for the Wu Pi Te Shao mountains? Height doesn't seem to really be an issue in the description. Thanks for the links though. :)
Jeff
Not really - the whole chain is the Wu Pi Te Shao Mountains. Parts of it have their own, 'lesser' names, but the whole range is known by that.
I just wanted to get it both centralized (east-to-west), so its really remote (in 'the middle of the impassable mountains'), and also on the glacier itself, which is another very good defense against Torillians accidentally stumbling upon it. If we moved it further south, we start to encroach on other 'realms' within the mountain chain, like the fabled land of Langdarma & the Kingdom of Nix, etc (from Double Diamond novels and the Blood & Magic video game). There is some back-and-forth going on across those mountains down there, so I felt it was best to just avoid the south entirely.
The only thing near my location is the Cave of Monkey, and he probably hangs out at the bar in the Starport (I'm picturing a 'Creature Catina' a'la SW).
_________________________________________________________________________________________________
I have some purely homebrew lore myself to go with The Dock - its the top of the highest mountain in the range (ya know... closer to space an all that - I'm thinking at least a third higher than Everest), and the Arcane (Mercane) have added some magitech machinery to provide a stable atmosphere (so no breathing problems due to altitude). In fact, it would be an adaption of a SJ-helm, because I am picturing a 'bubble' around the starport (maybe something thats a cross between a helm and mythal-like field). Anyhow, the mountain's 'peak' is actually a large, completely flat plain, and thats how the Arcane found it (I have more about that...). You see, a Netherese arcanist - wanting to build the largest enclave possible - found the largest mountain he could and sheared off the top.
But as I said, that part if PURE hmebrew - it connects to some stuff I did in K-T with an Archwizard named Enrev Seluj.
I like that idea... But tell me, did the legendary Enrev Seluj also try to make his enclave submersible? |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2018 : 20:47:31
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As a matter of fact Wooly, 'when the power went out', it crashed in the Celestial Sea, off the coast, and is now an Atlantis-like enclave (Seafolk).
As for the moutaintop enclave - Seluj (his mother was Calishite) used a Helm of Two Minds, and cast the Enclave-making spell twice, because he wanted a perfectly flat disk (which is what helped save his enclave when it crashed into the sea, unlike the ones that crashed into water in the west). He took the true peak of the mountain which he sheared off the part he wanted, and sent it into orbit (perhaps for later use and experimentation as an SJ base). What he hadn't realized (because of the sheer hubris of the Netherese) is that the mountain was occupied, and many dwarves were trapped in the part he sent into space. These dwarves were soon approached by the arcane, who offered to design a method of empowering their new 'flying Citadel', if they had something to trade. What they traded was the only thing they had of any value - the knowledge of what just happened to them.
Thus, the Arcane became aware of the lovely, FLAT moutaintop in a very remote part of Toril, and 'moved in'. This, of course, occurred AFTER Karsus cast his spell (one might surmise this is what drew the Arcane's attention to Toril and those dwarves in the first place - they do NOT like anything 'shutting down their Helms'... its bad for business). So the Arcane would have arrived soon after Enrev Seluj plummeted into the sea (actually, his enclave did - he was still flying about himself, doing other things to add to his new enclave - he fell like a meteor into the Yehimals somewhere, never to be seen again). Thus, the Nautilus Enclave was born.
Thats my story and I'm sticking to it. 
And BTW, he was friends with the Chronomancer (helped him fake his own death), and the Mountainpeak was said to journey 'from the earth to the moon'. Some Sages speculate that he lived, and that after his spectacular failure, he retired to another crystal Sphere and became a writer. The portal he used is presumably still functional... in an Earth National Park.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 26 Apr 2018 20:58:16 |
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BadCatMan
Senior Scribe
Australia
401 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2018 : 02:19:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Not really - the whole chain is the Wu Pi Te Shao Mountains. Parts of it have their own, 'lesser' names, but the whole range is known by that.
Actually, the whole range is the Yehimal, the Wu Pi Te Shao Mountains are just a region of it in the south, lying between the southern Utter East, Tabot, and the Sempadan Forest. I did some extensive comparisons of the maps and lore to sort out all those mountains on the wiki.
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Yehimal_Mountains
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Wu_Pi_Te_Shao_Mountains
So The Dock should be much further south. Realmspace puts it in the middle of the largest glacial ridge in the Wu Pi Te Shao. The Kara-Tur Trail Map puts only one glacier in the Wu Pi Te Shao. It's fairly easy to find the centre of that, so The Dock can be located almost exactly.
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/The_Dock
Coincidentally, as it lies on the same glacier, it would be basically in the goblin/harpy Kingdom of Nix from the Blood & Magic game.
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Kingdom_of_Nix
Which isn't unreasonable. Even if the port trades everything back out into space, it stills needs some kind of support and protection: storage, workers, supplies, waste disposal. I don't see the Arcane/mercane getting their hands dirty doing that, and they're weird enough that they'd be more likely to work with "monsters" than humans. So a semi-civilised goblin realm could provide all that. Imagine goblin workers on the ground, harpies who can fly up and guide a spelljammer in or provide aerial defences, for their Arcane masters. |
BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
Scientific technical editor
Head DM of the Realms of Adventure play-by-post community
Administrator of the Forgotten Realms Wiki |
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
572 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2018 : 04:34:09
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quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Not really - the whole chain is the Wu Pi Te Shao Mountains. Parts of it have their own, 'lesser' names, but the whole range is known by that.
Actually, the whole range is the Yehimal, the Wu Pi Te Shao Mountains are just a region of it in the south, lying between the southern Utter East, Tabot, and the Sempadan Forest. I did some extensive comparisons of the maps and lore to sort out all those mountains on the wiki.
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Yehimal_Mountains
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Wu_Pi_Te_Shao_Mountains
Yeah, that's what I thought from the name positioning on the Trail Map and Fonstad's Forgotten Realms Atlas.
quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan
Coincidentally, as it lies on the same glacier, it would be basically in the goblin/harpy Kingdom of Nix from the Blood & Magic game.
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Kingdom_of_Nix
Holy cow, I've never even heard of that game. Wonder how I missed it.
Thanks for the info, guys. I might be utilizing The Dock in an upcoming adventure in my Spelljammer campaign, and just wanted to verify my suspicion that it never made it onto any canon maps. :)
Jeff |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2018 : 17:42:59
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Okay, its been awhile since I've been over that way, lore-wise. You are right - I was thinking 'Yehimals', but saying 'Wu Pi Te Shao'.
Regardless, I stand by placement - it doesn't make any sense putting it in the center of a monster kingdom ruled by something that looks like a powerful fiend-lord. Thus, I chose the next best glacier.*
@AuldDragon - On that map (link) I posted earlier for the Utter East - that was from a project we worked on on the old WotC boards. Although I'd have to drastically change the coastlines at this point (and bring the mountains closer to them), because it was based on the terrible 3e geography, I believe every single site on that map is canon, or quasi-canon (stuff from the Video Game or DD novels). Unlike some of my latest maps, which do contain some homebrewed places, back then I was stickler for canon. Downright fanatical about it, actually. How times have changed.
You'll also note its missing a VERY important site - the city of Lipo, which should be on the coast there between the Utter East and Zakhara. It is a YAKFOLK settlement, where they have a port and trade with the outside world! I hadn't known about the article in Dragon Magazine #241 until long after that map was completed. I do plan to do a newer version when I get to that region with my new mapping project (trying to release a map that is part of that project latter today... so MANY distractions!)
*If & when I return to the uE, I 'may' decide to move it to where you say, if I can spin some decent lore around it. Since I already have Raksasha all over that mountain range (mostly homebrew - if you recall, we {mostly YOU, BCM} sort of figured that they should have a presence, based upon the encounter charts for surrounding areas), I may be inclined to turn Redfang into a Rakshasa (not all of them looked like cats), and then say he has some sort of deal with the Arcane (who may even think having a 'monster kingdom' surrounding them would aid them in their privacy from the Groundlings of the world). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
572 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2018 : 23:33:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Regardless, I stand by placement - it doesn't make any sense putting it in the center of a monster kingdom ruled by something that looks like a powerful fiend-lord. Thus, I chose the next best glacier.*
The kingdom wasn't there when The Dock's placement was made, though. In addition, it's in the middle of a high mountainous glacier; it's easy enough to say the kingdom claims those mountains, without knowledge of The Dock's existence. From the description, no one can walk from The Dock off the glacier, so it is not unreasonable to assume no one can walk to The Dock from outside. It's really easy to have them both co-exist.
Jeff |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2018 : 17:11:18
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Just thinking on this concept of the docks a little more and what I was playing with for the "after the sundering".... gonna throw out an idea....
So, one of the things I've been writing up was that Zulkir Mythrell'aa prior to the spellplague by a little over 2 decades has found the lost Netherese Flying Enclave known as "Doubloon". It is actually up in orbit, was fitted with several spelljamming helms capable of moving it SLOWLY, and was populated by humans from Nimbral centuries ago (who had stolen the enclave from Halruuans when they fled Halruaa, the Halruaans having recovered the enclave following Karsus' Folly). This enclave is noted as being capable of turning itself invisible in canon lore, so its been amongst the Tears of Selune for centuries. Mythrell'aa had secretly set herself up as its ruler prior to the spellplague (secretly to people on the surface of Toril, not to the people living on "Doubloon").
So, that being said, one of the things I was doing was actually having OUR moon and the moon from Abeir (which are supposedly the same, but different) have "swapped" during the spellplague. I also had the enclave of "Doubloon" (renamed Luneira) swap. Mythrell'aa and her people soon hook up with the other "United Tharchs of Toril" which get established in Anchorome, Katashaka, Lopango, and a transferred section of the eastern Shaar. Mulans rule the colony mostly, but those of Nimbraii blood are not treated as second class citizens if they can prove themselves worthy. Also, Mythrell'aa and her people establish contact with some island off the coast of Osse, where the natives look upon them with incredulence when they arrive in their strange sky vessels (in the two decades prior to the spellplague, Mythrell'aa had built several "Quads of Thay" spelljammers).
However, I'm not making it that they were the only spelljamming folk who transferred over. In the skies high above Katashaka, I'm having a few shou dragonships and Wa Tsunami that were in combat when the spellplague happened. These ships rapidly fell towards the earth below, and only just recovered their ability to fly before crashing. However, being right above Katashaka these giant ships that look draconic and like a caterpillar drew the attention of a powerful nyama-nummo which flew up and assaulted the craft and forced these people of Kara-tur to crash deep in the jungles of Katashaka. These people turn to aid each other and actually survive in the jungle. However, more importantly for this conversation is WHY these two groups were fighting in orbit. Basically, the people of Wa had secretly been building a base of operations in orbit which periodically would cross over Shou Lung. They planned to develop the means to drop objects upon Shou Lung from orbit for planetary bombardment (they did not understand the concept of things burning up as they entered the atmosphere at high speed). This group also gets transferred to Abeir, but they don't know what happened to their fellows who dropped to Katashaka and are stranded. In the fallout of the transfer to Abeir though, this group loses contact with their home country of Wa, but they are contacted by Zulkir Mythrell'aa of Luneira, and these people of Kara-Tur and the people of Luneira develop good relations while in Abeir (and despite Mulan values, there is a lot of cross-breeding between these 3 sub-races of humans).
Ok, now that we understand THAT, let's flash to another spelljamming group that "happened" to be in orbit over Anchorome. A trio or pair of Neogi deathspiders begins plummeting to earth above northwestern Anchorome. Like the ones above Katashaka, they manage to recover just before crashing, but they find their spelljammer only strong enough to slow their descent enough to not crash. They land in the "land of the insect men" which is northwest of Michaca/Pasocada Basin (i.e. City of Gold resource). This colony is actually a colony of spellweavers who rule over a savage group of thri-kreen, bacar (antmen), and keep Ankhegs and other types of giant beetles, scorpions, etc... as cattle/beasts of burden. They are also somewhat in conflict with a nearby colony of Abeil (bee people) who live in good relations with the Poscadari elves. These Neogi quickly join with the spellweavers, and they tell them of the dock. A few decades later, the insect folk, along with a small force of summoned gelugon devils, invade "The Dock" all the way on the other side of the world and capture numerous spelljammers. The arcane flee to the Wa enclave in orbit, where they are accepted. The insect men army occupy "The Dock" and some even begin breeding with Gelugons, gaining fiendish abilities heretofore unknown. It is rumored that they begin construction on some kind of deep dark pit of despair beneath "The Dock", wherein rituals to beings of power (particularly one known as Hadar) are performed.
How's this work for folks, and do we know much about Hadar from any resource? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
572 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2018 : 04:56:24
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I don't really have any opinion on post-Sundering stuff, but I will say anyone who "conquered" The Dock would find themselves on the bad side of the Arcane, which is a sure fire way to never get good dealings on Spelljammer trade. No new helms, ships, or equipment from the Arcane, and the Arcane would likely lean on other traders to shun them as well. You do NOT want to be on the bad side of the Arcane.
Also, the Arcane most definitely can afford to hire a large platoon of heavily armed Giff* (or two, or four, or ten...) to take back The Dock.
Jeff
*And, of course, adventurers, should a DM want to turn this into an adventure rather than just setting information. |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2018 : 13:03:47
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quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
I don't really have any opinion on post-Sundering stuff, but I will say anyone who "conquered" The Dock would find themselves on the bad side of the Arcane, which is a sure fire way to never get good dealings on Spelljammer trade. No new helms, ships, or equipment from the Arcane, and the Arcane would likely lean on other traders to shun them as well. You do NOT want to be on the bad side of the Arcane.
Also, the Arcane most definitely can afford to hire a large platoon of heavily armed Giff* (or two, or four, or ten...) to take back The Dock.
Jeff
*And, of course, adventurers, should a DM want to turn this into an adventure rather than just setting information.
Yes, and that would be the point. If "The Dock" had been in Abeir for the last century and unable to access the phlogiston, then they would not have been able to contact those resources. However, the Sundering JUST happened. So these particular Arcane who have been cut off from their brethren for decades have only been back now for a few years. Maybe they have to transport themselves across wildspace to some other Arcane held space, raise an army, and come back. However, maybe they don't want to appear incompetent either, and so they want to recover their homeland using in-world resources... and so they turn to the Shou or Wa or Nimbral, etc...
Thus, the creation of an adventure path directly related as a response to the sundering. It would also allow for some development of other cultures in the area (such as the Kingdom of Nix and other cultures in the Yehimals such as the Yak Folk, plus the kingdoms of the Utter East).
*********OR AS ANOTHER OPTION*************
The Arcane fled to the Wa Enclave after being assaulted as described, where they were accepted. However, the Thayans even prior to the Spellplague had been developing the "science" of making their own version of Helms for the Quad of Thay (i.e. the Grand Helm which worked with the border ethereal and could not transfer to the Phlogiston AND was prohibitively expensive). So, these Arcane are cut off from the rest of the multiverse by being in Abeir, and thus any pain felt by them would maybe only be felt by those arcane found locally.
So, taking THAT into account, perhaps Mythrell'aa and her red wizards either torture the secret of making spelljamming helms OR over decades of magical interrogation using illusion, enchantment, and abjuration magics (and maybe even psionics) they break the arcane and discover the secret via trickery through implanted memories, manipulation of memories, illusions to make them think they're somewhere else, etc.... If this were the case, they may have killed these remaining arcane after discovering the secret prior to the sundering. When the sundering occurs, there's no reason to believe that the Arcane would instinctively know about it (at least not necessarily right away... it may take decades for them to find out, since no one has been travelling to realmspace this past century since the crystal sphere quit functioning).
In this instance though, the Shou and Wa DO know of "The Docks" and after the sundering they may determine that they want to reopen communications.... only to arrive and find a spellweave/thri-kreen/bacar/neogi/umber hulk settlement also working with the inhabitants of the nearby kingdom of nix (and possibly demon or far realm entities). They red wizards of the United Tharchs of Toril (my homebrew) may also be interested in trying to invade this place as well. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 30 Apr 2018 15:27:34 |
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The Arcane's Dock in the Wu Pi Te Shao Mountains
