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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Apr 2018 : 14:07:59
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Also, just since I had been talking about the whole Tyr, Lathander (Frey), Sune (Freya), Helm (Heimdall), thing in relation to Cyric's (Loki's) imprisonment in the Supreme Throne, etc... where he's to be tortured and driven mad by the dropping of a giant snake's venom (I mean, um, the winds drive him mad and torture him)....
I find it MUCH more palatable of a story that Helm's, Lathander's and Tyr's deaths are just a ruse.... because telling the populace of the world "we have to go away because we have to stop an incursion of great evil from an alternate universe from coming over and overwhelming you all" is not as welcome a story to hear than "Um, Tyr got jealous and smacked Helm because .... Um, there was a misunderstanding about who was in love with the goddess of luck". Also, that Sune is involved with all of this (sending the goddess of luck to Tyr... taking Ilmater and Siamorphe in... and later helping lock away Cyric) makes me think it would be a good storyline if she was a "lifeline" of some sort for Helm, Tyr, and Lathander outside of the Supreme Throne. Throw into all of this mix the involvement of Savras, Leira, and Mask to help foresee things, fake things, and engender various intrigues (and possibly lead Kezef the Chaos Hound on a merry chase for a century or so, so that it doesn't pursue Tyr).
And as long as I'm releasing a bunch of vestiges.... just because I like Chupoclops... maybe the great soul eating primordial spider was also released from the place where vestiges go.... wouldn't Lolth just possibly either hate OR love that. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2018 : 18:21:37
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Note that the Red Wizards adopted wholesale the racialist policies of Mulhorandi priesthoods and while there certainly exist examples whose pureblood Mulan bloodlines are more or less fraudulent*, it simply doesn't make sense for such a racial restriction to exist at all unless the original Red Wizards were pureblooded Mulan.
And while the 3e sources say 'Mulan', as far as I can tell, the actual practice is someone who can trace their bloodline to an upper class Mulhorandi family, of the ruling class of the Priador and other provinces where modern Thay now stands. There is no suggestion that visiting Untheri archmages have ever been accepted as Red Wizards, or indeed, as anything but foreigners. Probably viewed as a marginally better class of foreigner, but still foreign.
*In precisely the same way as subjects of the Spanish crown would sometimes procure forged certificates of blood purity. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
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Edited by - Icelander on 24 Apr 2018 18:23:18 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2018 : 01:32:22
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Ah, I'll disagree there. Most of the red wizards were Mulhorandi because the territory was held by Mulhorand, but I don't see them having an issue with say Untheric Mulans. They were after all separating themselves from Mulhorand and disavowing the gods there. So, the majority were probably Mulhorandi blooded, but it was a Mulan movement.
The issue I see coming in was with the Narfellian blooded, the Rashemi blooded, and the Halruaans that all joined in (which the question naturally becomes what percentage of wizards came from these factions, and I'd probably put them at less than 20%... but probably they were also more powerful than the average red wizard) . Granted, after say a generation, I'm betting some of this became moot, as these other groups probably bred with Mulans (even if of a lesser social stratum). Then after several generations when the actual Zulkirate formed, these "outsiders", such as Velsharoon and probably Zhengyi, were most likely forced out by the racially biased Mulans. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2018 : 03:48:42
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I have to admit Thay's history is a weak spot of mine (along with the Old Empires) - I find it all very confusing. My bad for screwing up the timeline in regards to when Thay was founded. I forget that somehow Thay was founded and named after Thayd a couple of thousand years after he died... which makes ZERO sense. Just one more reason why I avoid all the OE stuff. I had meant that they had gone there around the time Thay itself was being founded - forget I mentioned Thayd.
You are very insistent that the Black Flames guys all died. 'Canon' is pretty much meaningless - its only good until the next edition arrives (I'm figuring another year and we get a 6e announcement). What I did way back in the Utter East stuff - and still trying to do here - is figure out how some of them may have carried on in secret, or become something else. YES, nothing official connects the two groups, but it is still fun to theorize on how it may be possible. They could be useful to someone wanting an interesting plothook for there games (like finding a journal from a member who was part of a small enclave that fled north, to avoid persecution).
And when Ed writes, he dosn't use official timelines, he uses his own. When he wrote that throw-away timeline entry he probably meant for it to be connected to Thay's founding, but 'official' timelines screw it all up (I've heard stories about how hard it was to try and get all of Ed's lore into one, consistent timeline - it is an on-going and monumental task). Thus, I would be more apt to change HIS date and have stuff align better with what was most-likely intended.
I forget where we were going with all that in the Utter East material - i think we had imagined a color-based magic system for the OE back then (mages wearing colors corresponding to what today would be thought of as 'schools'). In fact, there is at least one magic school (in Chessenta, IIRC, but maybe Unther) that does just that - the students and faculty wear colors representing their 'schools' of speciality. And almost parallel to Eberron lore, we figured the 'Black' school was Necromancy and that why the other schools (and the Mulan) turned on them (and in Eberron - that Dragonmark still exists in secret - House Vol). I think we had a 'White Order' that represented the Mulan priesthood ('life'/Divine magic), and a gray order that was druidic in nature ('neutrality'). Its been so many years since we came up with all that - i need to go find that thread and archive it soon.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2018 : 04:18:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
No, I mean in 4e they killed him off and turned his corpse into abyssal carpet.
Well, I've never played a Realms game set later than 1373 DR, so that doesn't matter for any game I'm likely to play.
Sooo...does that mean Merrshaulk is Yig?
It might interest you to know that the "lesser" Great Old Ones are described in Pathfinder. They basically occupy the same strata of power as demon lords and the Lords of the Nine, and range from CR 27 - 30.
http://archivesofnethys.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Tsathoggua |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2018 : 14:09:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I have to admit Thay's history is a weak spot of mine (along with the Old Empires) - I find it all very confusing. My bad for screwing up the timeline in regards to when Thay was founded. I forget that somehow Thay was founded and named after Thayd a couple of thousand years after he died... which makes ZERO sense. Just one more reason why I avoid all the OE stuff. I had meant that they had gone there around the time Thay itself was being founded - forget I mentioned Thayd.
You are very insistent that the Black Flames guys all died. 'Canon' is pretty much meaningless - its only good until the next edition arrives (I'm figuring another year and we get a 6e announcement). What I did way back in the Utter East stuff - and still trying to do here - is figure out how some of them may have carried on in secret, or become something else. YES, nothing official connects the two groups, but it is still fun to theorize on how it may be possible. They could be useful to someone wanting an interesting plothook for there games (like finding a journal from a member who was part of a small enclave that fled north, to avoid persecution).
And when Ed writes, he dosn't use official timelines, he uses his own. When he wrote that throw-away timeline entry he probably meant for it to be connected to Thay's founding, but 'official' timelines screw it all up (I've heard stories about how hard it was to try and get all of Ed's lore into one, consistent timeline - it is an on-going and monumental task). Thus, I would be more apt to change HIS date and have stuff align better with what was most-likely intended.
I forget where we were going with all that in the Utter East material - i think we had imagined a color-based magic system for the OE back then (mages wearing colors corresponding to what today would be thought of as 'schools'). In fact, there is at least one magic school (in Chessenta, IIRC, but maybe Unther) that does just that - the students and faculty wear colors representing their 'schools' of speciality. And almost parallel to Eberron lore, we figured the 'Black' school was Necromancy and that why the other schools (and the Mulan) turned on them (and in Eberron - that Dragonmark still exists in secret - House Vol). I think we had a 'White Order' that represented the Mulan priesthood ('life'/Divine magic), and a gray order that was druidic in nature ('neutrality'). Its been so many years since we came up with all that - i need to go find that thread and archive it soon.
Per Ed, Thayd was involved in the revolution. So, he may have died two thousand years prior, but he was back to aid the Thayan revolution. However, we also have this story that Ythazz Buvarr ALSO led the revolution. Occam's Razor then says that there was more than one leader, and history is somewhat being rewritten by the "victor" (as in Ythazz survived Thayd... though Ythazz then got trapped beneath Bezantur). So, SOMEHOW Thayd came back, and WHILE he was back he acted much like a Suel Lich. Where he was prior... where he is now... all up for grabs, and I'm leaning vestige.
As to the black flame all dying out, per canon that's not the case. The statement says some were "lost in other planes".... hell, that could scream vestige. It could also scream some just went somewhere else (even the elemental planes). If they survive several centuries with occasional contact with the realms, they could easily return to join in the revolution (hell, they could be another faction leading said revolution... maybe they still harbor resentment).
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2018 : 16:11:29
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If Thayd was a Suel Lich, why couldn't he also be Ythazz? -That would be a perfect example of Occam's Razor.
Ythazz gets too close to wherever Thayd had his phylactory hidden, and Thayd possesses Ythazz, thus both of them are involved in the revolution.
Now, since we are already theorizing that Ythazz was sticking his nose in where it didn't belong, there may have been other potent 'things of magic' he was after, and amongst all that could have been a copy of a Black Flame spell book, and from that the order of 'Red Wizards' came about (and created Thay).
Now, I know Icelander is going to chime in here that thayd predated the Black Flame guys by 1200 years. So what if that cache Ythazz found had belonged to that order, and that order itself had come about - over the years - as the descendants of the followers of Thayd? It would have been a very small, secret order for several centuries, until it finally grew enough in size and power to be recognized as such around 229 DR (in other words, it DIDN'T 'just spring-up out of nowhere', but had been around a VERY long time, and it had only become pubic knowledge in 229 DR). During that time, they kept their existence a secret because Thayd had become public enemy #1 in the Mulan lands. Also, his direct disciples - his apprentices - would have known about his power and contingencies. Suppose Thayd trapped his soul in an amulet of great power. His followers then took said amulet and stored it in a special box made out of magic-dead wood (or whatever other material your heart desires), for safe-keeping until such a time when they would grow in power enough for Thayd to return (in other words, none of them wanted to be possessed by him LOL).
Then that group gets wiped-out (or nearly so - I still need to use an arm of it down in the uE), but most of their horde of magic remained in hidden caches around the OE. Ythazz comes along and researches them, and finds one of the hiding spots - the main one. He opens the box, and detects great magic off the amulet... and dons it. And that is that - he gets taken-over by Thayd (who is probably kind of pissed his followers locked him away for 1200 years). Now, we can imagine that Ythazz may have broken-free of the control at some point, or perhaps he was old, or had gotten sorely wounded, and Thayd switched bodies (or maybe he just managed to fight for control against Thayd - maybe he was fighting him the whole time). That part of the story doesn't matter - it can be spun any way someone wants it to have gone. In the end, both men were 'involved' in the revolution.
I just had an interesting idea - what if 'Thayd' was an alias? What if he was actually Ambuchar Devyam (Tan Chin) the whole time? It would explain what Tan Chin was doing for several thousand years. Thus, after the Thayan revolution, he returns to Solon? It's not a necessary add, but it might be fun to spin things that way. Ed had originally meant for Thay to be his 'Far East' type of Realm, so if we wanted to give it a bit of an eastern vibe (at least, early on), having that guy be involved in its founding would make sense. It would also explain Thayd's intense fascination with Imaskari magic*. Or not... works either way.
*And to take this line of thought a step further, it would explain why those magics were so powerful and important, and were later considered the cornerstone of Red Wizard magic (as per the timeline entry for the Black Flame Mages). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 26 Apr 2018 18:57:08 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2018 : 17:17:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I have to admit Thay's history is a weak spot of mine (along with the Old Empires) - I find it all very confusing. My bad for screwing up the timeline in regards to when Thay was founded. I forget that somehow Thay was founded and named after Thayd a couple of thousand years after he died... which makes ZERO sense. Just one more reason why I avoid all the OE stuff. I had meant that they had gone there around the time Thay itself was being founded - forget I mentioned Thayd.
I've always thought of the naming of Thay as equivalent to the naming of such places as Cincinnati, i.e. a classical name chosen for the associations it had to the educated men who named it.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
You are very insistent that the Black Flames guys all died. 'Canon' is pretty much meaningless - its only good until the next edition arrives (I'm figuring another year and we get a 6e announcement).
The challenge and fun of using a published setting, or using the real world as a setting, for that matter, is that you accept what happened in the history of that setting and invent only what fits between what is known.
Personally, I don't really like the direction that Hasbro has taken the setting, especially with the focus on major catastrophes and, lately, huge time jumps, instead of building on what has come before and detailing what remains largely the same setting, with the same ever growing cast of characters, but that just means that I don't bother to buy new Hasbro products, set my games in the 1300s DR and pick and choose what lore I use from whomever Hasbro chooses to employ for their official product.
It doesn't mean that I disregard what Ed says about the Realms. Especially not when it makes much more sense than having every single historical figure be yet another historical figure in disguise, everyone being secretly immortal and no one born after the start of Dale Reckoning really having done anything noteworthy without the invisible hand of long-dead supermen having guided them.
What Ed wrote doesn't preclude the discovery of one of the founding members of the Black Flame as a long-imprisoned lich or soul-jarred mage lost on another plane. It does, however, firmly indicate that they didn't just move to the next country or continue to exist under another name.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
What I did way back in the Utter East stuff - and still trying to do here - is figure out how some of them may have carried on in secret, or become something else. YES, nothing official connects the two groups, but it is still fun to theorize on how it may be possible. They could be useful to someone wanting an interesting plothook for there games (like finding a journal from a member who was part of a small enclave that fled north, to avoid persecution).
One or two ancient archmages 'surviving' as mummies, liches or something more exotic can be cool. Every single power group from the past still existing despite having clearly been described as destroyed and centuries or millennia have passed since all of them would have died by natural causes even if they survived somehow at first... well, that's just tacky.
I didn't mind Larloch, Halaster and one or two sarrukh having survived by convoluted means. The Shade enclave, Deep Imaskar and dozens if not hundreds of sarrukh surviving tens of millennia was cheesy and served to cheapen the dramatic impact of any 'ancient' or 'lost' civilisations.
A historical event, personage or group can be an adventure hook without the principals having survived into the modern era. The Realms are a literate society and books are the most common way for information to be preserved.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And when Ed writes, he dosn't use official timelines, he uses his own. When he wrote that throw-away timeline entry he probably meant for it to be connected to Thay's founding, but 'official' timelines screw it all up (I've heard stories about how hard it was to try and get all of Ed's lore into one, consistent timeline - it is an on-going and monumental task). Thus, I would be more apt to change HIS date and have stuff align better with what was most-likely intended.
Why would Ed have intended the founding of Thay to have taken place much earlier than it did? Or the Black Flame cabal of Unther to have been directly involved |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2018 : 18:08:48
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I made the black flame order arise from wizards that Gilgeam persecuted and the church of unther's fire God which he also decided to persecute.
No doubt Gilgeam persecuted a vast number of individual wizards, because of their familial connections, political stances, religious beliefs and/or lack of loyalty, perceived or otherwise.
There is no reason to believe, however, that wizards as a class or group have ever been persecuted in Unther, at least not merely because they were wizards. In fact, we have extensive canon in Ed's novels and other writings, that all through recorded history of Faerun, Unther has been home to powerful, prosperous mages, some of whom have hired themselves out as mercenaries and court mages.
There was never any suggestion that such spellhurlers-for-hire were forced to leave Unther or would have any kind of difficulty going back there with the fruits of their hire. Unther just seems to be a place where a lot of wizards come from, much like India and doctors.
Of course, that doesn't prevent Gilgeam from persecuting groups of wizards whom he deems traitorous or disloyal. As he did for the Enclave and Northern Wizards at the end of his reign and as he might have done for the Black Flame.
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
The renegade wizards had been around for a while, but the now renegade church gave them organisation. They tried to setup a land for themselves in unther and attracted wizards from mulhorand and elsewhere but ultimately failed and the organisation was destroyed.
Do you have any explanation why the church of Girru would have survived for around thirteen centuries after the death of the god?
Or for why the church of a Lawful Good god of fire, viewed as a purifying force, would have supported mages who viewed flame as a dark force?
Are you sure you wouldn't prefer to link Eltabranar, Eltab and southern 'barbarians' using various demonic powers and magics to these mages?
After all, these actually were involved in Unther's history at the same time as the Black Flame was founded (Eltabranar fell in 211 DR and the Black Flame was founded in 229 DR), whereas the Orcgate Wars and the death of Girru took place more than a millennia before.
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
A number of wizards fled, the greatest concentration found an extradimensional space used by the imaskari long ago. From there some fled to the far flung reaches of imaskar's former borders (including Thay) while others stayed and formed the enclave (with their base in the extradimensional portal nexus).
That's fair enough. I prefer that the Black Flame and the Enclave represent very different approaches to planar magics, but I certainly agree that placing the Enclave's secret base in an extradimensional portal nexus is a wonderful idea.
The way I view the Enclave is that they study the Outer Planes cautiously and regard it as their duty to keep the integrity of planar borders of Toril strong, while the Black Flame consisted of mages who were willing to take risks and leave any potential weakening in the fabric of reality as a hypothetical problem for future generations.
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
So it's true that the black flame order remnants fled to the planes and then some came back to faerun. Doesn't contradict anything it just adds a little bit extra which is fine in my book.
Ed Greenwood, as omniscient narrator, says those who were not destroyed by rivals were 'lost' on travels to other planes. Fleeing implies volition, a decision to leave Toril for some other place, whereas becoming lost while travelling implies having been killed, disabled or otherwise prevented from returning from a journey due to circumstances beyond your control. Compare 'lost at sea'. |
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Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Edited by - Icelander on 25 Apr 2018 18:11:26 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2018 : 19:53:05
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Well, thats thing. Historically, we have groups that 'were no more', when in reality they just were hidden and then rebranded themselves as something else. In fact, it happens way more often then people realize.
So, because 'history' says one thing, doesn't actually make it (quite) so. If that applies to RW history, then I would imagine it should apply to fictional history with at least equal fervor.
For example, history says the Nazis were completely defeated and 'made to not exist anymore'. And yet, there is tons and tons of evidence large numbers of them continued on in Argentina and elsewhere (and if you like pulp stories, there are hundreds of 'hidden Nazi bases' everywhere, especially in comics). 
Hail Hydra.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2018 : 20:47:26
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Unther had some really powerful mages but for some reason around 100 DR they all started migrating away. We have mention of more than a few in Athalantar.
There are numerous revolutionary groups in Unther composed entirely of mages.
I decided that Gilgeam did his usual thing to power groups and persecuted them out of fear and paranoia until they left or rebelled.
So how did the Church of Girre survive 1000 years after his death. I could give a very well known real world example of this but i'll just leave it as anything is possible.
Why would they renegade and embrace outcasts. When you see your friends executed for minor or even imagined mistakes, your life's work destroyed and the government and its agents threatening you, beating you, extorting money from you. It starts to turn thoughts towards revenge, then you are forced out of your home and find yourself with others of like mind (vengeance against the authorities). It starts off as beating up a few government thugs, then stealing some taxes, then burning down a building, and soon enough you are a full blown revolutionary.
Not many people start off as evil anarchists (or even good anarchists) but they can be driven to it by an evil government that persecutes its citizens (but not all of them).
After the revolution is destroyed the survivors flee, possibly intending to return and get revenge but after they move away (get stranded in Thay or take up residence in an extra planar stronghold) they soon find the fires of revolution go out. They get used to the quiet life where nobody bothers them. They get old and their perspective changes. Finally they die and their protégé's do not have the same values or experience as they do, the protégé's of the protégé's couldn't care less about what happened in a land they have never been to before they were born.
Over time the enclave evolves from revolutionaries to quiet cataloguers of magic, waiting to celebrate Gilgeam's death but not willing to do anything to hasten it. Those in Thay meanwhile have devolved into a faction of the Red Wizards that specialise in flame based magic or perhaps the black flame has become nothing more than a symbol or title to reward Red Wizards who perform great deeds, their memory long since forgotten and only their names and spells remain.
Ed is a master at weaving lore, and provides great generalisations of events. There is always an exception or two however, which is how we get such a rich variety ancient ruins, organisations, living and undead survivors and magical artefacts (not referring to power level more in an archaeological sense). Almost all the Black Flame order were lost to the planes, but it only takes for a handful to survive and return to Faerun you have the basis for the enclave and the Red Wizards without contradicting the general consensus (especially if even the survivors consider the order lost and disbanded). |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2018 : 00:27:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
If Thayd was a Suel Lich, why couldn't he also be Ythazz? -That would be a perfect example of Occam's Razor.
Ythazz gets too close to wherever Thayd had his phylactory hidden, and Thayd possesses Ythazz, thus both of them are involved in the revolution.
Now, since we are already theorizing that Ythazz was sticking his nose in where it didn't belong, there may have been other potent 'things of magic' he was after, and amongst all that could have been a copy of a Black Flame spell book, and from that the order of 'Red Wizards' came about (and created Thay).
Now, I know Icelander is going to chime in here that thayd predated the Black Flame guys by 1200 years. So what if that cache Ythazz found had belonged to that order, and that order itself had come about - over the years - as the descendants of the followers of Thayd? It would have been a very small, secret order for several centuries, until it finally grew enough in size and power to be recognized as such around 229 DR (in other words, it DIDN'T 'just spring-up out of nowhere', but had been around a VERY long time, and it had only become pubic knowledge in 229 DR). During that time, they kept their existence a secret because Thayd had become public enemy #1 in the Mulan lands. Also, his direct disciples - his apprentices - would have known about his power and contingencies. Suppose Thayd trapped his soul in an amulet of great power. His followers then took said amulet and stored it in a special box made out of magic-dead wood (or whatever other material your heart desires), for safe-keeping until such a time when they would grow in power enough for Thayd to return (in other words, none of them wanted to be possessed by him LOL).
Then that group gets wiped-out (or nearly so - I still need to use an arm of it down in the uE), but most of their horde of magic remained in hidden caches around the OE. Ythazz comes along and researches them, and finds one of the hiding spots - the main one. He opens the box, and detects great magic off the amulet... and dons it. And that is that - he gets taken-over by Thayd (who is probably kind of pissed his followers locked him away for 1200 years). Now, we can imagine that Ythazz may have broken-free of the control at some point, or perhaps he was old, or had gotten sorely wounded, and Thayd switched bodies (or maybe he just managed to fight for control against Thayd - maybe he was fighting him the whole time). That part of the story doesn't matter - it can be spun any way someone wants it to have gone. In the end, both men were 'involved' in the revolution.
I just had an interesting idea - what if 'Thayd' was an alias? What if he was actually Ambuchar Devyam (Tan Chin) the whole time? It would explain what Tan Chin was doing for several thousand years. Thus, after the Thayan revolution, he returns to Solon? It's not a necessary add, but it might be fun to spin things that way. Ed had originally meant for Thay to be his 'Far East' type of Realm, so if we wanted to give it a bit of an eastern vibe (at least, early on), having that guy be involved in its founding would make sense. t would also explain his intense fascination with Imaskari magic*. Or not... work either way.
*And to take this line of thought a step further, it would explain why those magics wer so powerful and important, and were later considered the cornerstone of Red Wizard magic (as per the timeline entry for the Black Flame Mages).
Because a Suel Lich has to possess a living person. Ythazz is introduced in Spellbound as being a demilich. Theoretically, that should mean that he's spent a lot of time as a lich. Also, he's known as Thayd in Ed's work, and it says he was known for burning out bodies within days.
The idea of Thayd himself as a Suel Lich does work for the Black Flame wizards. In fact, if Thayd had perhaps gone on to possess a dragon at some point after his "death", the dragon being powerful enough that Thayd doesn't immediately burn it out... he could have had followers maybe in Unther who formed the black flame. Hmmm, would it be interesting if Tchazzar is a child "born" of Thayd when he possessed Tchazzar's father or mother? Perhaps Thayd continued to survive in this dragon, until it finally died due to burn out a few years later. Tchazzar's sudden attack on the Wizard's Reach right after the Thayan revolution may have had something to do with Thayd (perhaps an attempt to kill Thayd while he was visiting Samathar of the League of Samathar to arrange an alliance). I'd wondered at one point if Thayd had taken on draconic form after the Thayan Revolution as well (because one of his Zulkirs, Ilkrim Hlannadar, was known as the "Dragondevoured" after he betrayed Thayd... noting this was before the Zulkirate... so there were different types of Zulkirs). If this were true, might he have possessed a relative or lover of Tchazzar's. The idea that the Zulkirate also formed (1030 DR after years of infighting, probably after Thayd's death) right around the time of the dragon craziness (1018 DR) lends itself to the idea that Thayd in dragon form may have died in 1018 DR.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 26 Apr 2018 01:00:48 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2018 : 11:00:46
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Unther had some really powerful mages but for some reason around 100 DR they all started migrating away. We have mention of more than a few in Athalantar.
Unther has always exported mercenary mages, but there is, again, no mention that these are fleeing their home or that they will not return back there with their riches. If anything, the implication is that because there are so many mages in Unther, but, at various times, too few elsewhere, that they can make much more money working abroad.
The Untheri mages in Athalantar are mentioned in context with the Black Flame cabal. It is not specified whether they were rivals of some of the mages in that cabal, allies, friends, apprentices or something else of the mages who formed the Black Flame, but Ed Greenwood mentioned the Black Flame for some reason in an article on Athalantar, where he also mentioned several Untheri mages who appear to have moved there for professional reasons a couple of years before the Black Flame cabal was founded.
If all the mages in Unther had started emigrating after 100 DR, it is extremely implausible that Unther would still be producing sought-after mercenary mages twelve centuries later. Yet that seems to be the case, with Calishite and Untheri mercenary mages still seemingly the most sought-after spellhurlers-for-hire in 1300s Sembia and various other places, as evidenced by their presence in many Realms stories.
In order for powerful mages, capable of using 5th level and higher spells, to come from somewhere in a steady stream over centuries and millennia, they need to be able to study and apprentice there. If there had been a flight of mages from Unther in the second or third century DR, the descendants of these mages would not be 'Untheri' in the 14th century DR. So we may safely conclude that arcane spellcasters were not persecuted in Unther, at least not the extent that it had any effect on the apparently prodigious production of new spellhurlers from there.
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
There are numerous revolutionary groups in Unther composed entirely of mages.
Which?
Thayd was a Theurgist Adept, which apparently is some form of arcane magic-user, but his followers might have been from many groups of society. Yes, he had apprentices who were mages and he apparently appealed to many mages, in Unther (somewhat oddly) as well as Mulhorand, but the distinguishing part of his revolt was a rejection of divine power in general and, specifically, the authority of the God-Kings.
The Black Flame cabal has never been claimed to have had any political goals. They might have, of course, but what history we have is silent on the matter, telling us only that local lords whelmed armies against them and that the mages of the Black Flame cabal destroyed those armies with their spells. Why the local lords did this, we do not know, but obviously, it is tempting to speculate that either their goals or their methods were inimical to the ruling class of Unther. In any case, there is no suggestion that they were persecuted for being mages.
The Northern Wizards and the Enclave were simply apolitical groups of mages, much like any wizard's guild or society. The Northern Wizards were drawn into politics against their will, but the Enclave still refuse to take any political stance. Neither of them were revolutionaries or plotted against Gilgeam when he decided to move against them in the mid-14th century DR. Gilgeam's decision to finally start persecuting them, after what appears to be untold centuries of mages being simply an accepted part of life in Unther, seems to have been a sign of his ever-increasing demented paranoia.
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I decided that Gilgeam did his usual thing to power groups and persecuted them out of fear and paranoia until they left or rebelled.
That describes Gilgeam in the 1350s, but his fall from grace was gradual, a process of centuries, if not millennia. His paranoia was nowhere near as great in the past as it had become by the end. There was a time when he was a popular leader and Unther was prosperous. Even when he had become ineffectual as a ruler, it seems that his earlier sins were mostly ones of inattention, i.e. he had become heartily sick of the day-to-day business of ruling.
From what I can tell, for most of his reign, the usual response of Gilgeam to most anything was to ignore it, especially if it could not be slain in glorious single combat. He didn't even bother to persecute 'rival' faiths until quite late in his reign, being until then serenely indifferent to the priesthoods of Assuran, Ramman, Ishtar and the few madmen who still devoted their lives to dead gods.
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
So how did the Church of Girre survive 1000 years after his death. I could give a very well known real world example of this but i'll just leave it as anything is possible.
A lot of gods have death and rebirth in their mythology. The gods who died in the Orcgate Wars were acknowledged to be dead and entombed accordingly. Canonically, some people still respect their memory and even try to worship them, but in a world where other gods are real and active, granting spells and boons, such people, who worship dead gods that cannot help them, are considered harmless eccentrics.
Margaret Murray's claims of the existence of a witch-cult in Europe over centuries and millennia, despite the lack of written sources, were rubbish scholarship when they were put forth and no academic with even a lick of sense accepts them today. Having the church of Girru survive in secret for twelve centuries would be exactly that sort of implausible nonsense.
Are there scholars who know of Girru? Yes. Are there people in modern Unther who pray to Girru and other ancient dead gods for various reasons, largely to reclaim some imagined patriotic heritage? Yes. Is there an unbroken tradition of a secret church of Girru that somehow survived more than a thousand years after it was acknowledged that this god had died and had no more power? No. No, there isn't.
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Why would they renegade and embrace outcasts. When you see your friends executed for minor or even imagined mistakes, your life's work destroyed and the government and its agents threatening you, beating you, extorting money from you. It starts to turn thoughts towards revenge, then you are forced out of your home and find yourself with others of like mind (vengeance against the authorities). It starts off as beating up a few government thugs, then stealing some taxes, then burning down a building, and soon enough you are a full blown revolutionary.
Not many people start off as evil anarchists (or even good anarchists) but they can be driven to it by an evil government that persecutes its citizens (but not all of them).
You're projecting the mad Gilgeam of the 1350s and the tyranny perpetuated in his name far into the mists of the distant past. Gilgeam wasn't persecuting anyone for believing in other Untheri gods, dead or alive, in -700 DR or in 200 DR. Active persecution only started in the 1300s, though these older faiths had long before that become less than fashionable and rejected by most ambitious people, as it was clear that the road to success in Unther lay in the favour of Gilgeam and therefore worship of him.
As far as I can tell, Chessenta and the cities of the League of Samathar rebelled because the Second Untheric Empire had grown weak and ineffectual, not because it was any more tyrannical than the average empire. Gilgeam's ennui turned to bitterness over centuries of setbacks, which he failed to prevent and eventually stopped trying to do more than occasionally acting to 'defend' his own person and power, which led to the paranoid persecutions of his late reign.
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Ed is a master at weaving lore, and provides great generalisations of events. There is always an exception or two however, which is how we get such a rich variety ancient ruins, organisations, living and undead survivors and magical artefacts (not referring to power level more in an archaeological sense). Almost all the Black Flame order were lost to the planes, but it only takes for a handful to survive and return to Faerun you have the basis for the enclave and the Red Wizards without contradicting the general consensus (especially if even the survivors consider the order lost and disbanded).
It also only takes a handful of spellbooks for someone who lived centuries after you to know your spells. That's the most reasonable and plausible explanation for why the spells of one group of mages were used by another group. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2018 : 19:16:22
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Because a Suel Lich has to possess a living person. Ythazz is introduced in Spellbound as being a demilich. Theoretically, that should mean that he's spent a lot of time as a lich. Also, he's known as Thayd in Ed's work, and it says he was known for burning out bodies within days.
I didn't know Ythazz was already a demilich. As I've stated, my knowledge of ancient Thayan (and OE) history is sparse, compared to my knowledge of other parts of the setting. This is primarily due to them (TSR, WotC) not having really done a lot with the place(s) - I have to research the Heartlands heavily to do maps, because so much changed over time. We really don't see a whole lot of that with Thay and the Old Empires; once Imaskari was gone, it was all fairly linear. The sites and cities that are there have been so for thousands of years (mostly).
So Ed has stated Ythazz was known as Thayd? Hmmmmm....
Then I would turn Ythazz/Thayd into a unique form of lich (they are all supposed to be, anyway) - one who's phylactory is his own skull (they did something somewhat similar in the TV Shannara series with the Warlock Lord's skull). Thus, the assumption that Ythazz is a demilich, when really thats the skull of Thayd (with the ability to fly around and shoot beams out of its eyes, a'la the Skulls of Waterdeep and elsewhere... EG was really fond of flying skulls). But at the same time, its really more like a Suel Lich - the skull is just his 'home' while disembodied (almost like a genie in a lamp).
So there may have actually been a Ythazz at some point, who Thayd controlled, and then when he 'burned out', the skull just claimed to be 'Ythazz returned'.
Obviously fitting Ambuchar Devyam into all of this became way more complicated (or not, if we say Tan Chin did his 'soul split' later on, and abandoned the Skull, so that the objects destroyed in that AP were more like Horcruxes. In fact, if we say the skull is still around somewhere, that might be even better - it could be his 'final horcrux' that no-one ever finds). And he IS a Suel lich, so that part fits perfectly.
Whether anyone cares for this scenario or not, I may adapt parts of it for Tan Chin regardless. Being a Suel Lich alleviates him from having to transcend into a Demilich, but having him have his own, flying skull around could be a lot of fun. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 26 Apr 2018 19:18:07 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2018 : 03:29:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So Ed has stated Ythazz was known as Thayd? Hmmmmm....
Not sure that statement is correct.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Black Flame mages of Unther
