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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Mar 2018 : 22:19:26
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So I am mapping The Dalelands again ATM (a side-project off of a side-project off of a side-project, etc...), and I am actually digging into the nitty-gritty of specific settlements (mostly looking for juicy geography tidbits), and I noticed something weird - no crypts, mausoleums, graveyards, etc. Do they just burn their dead? 
Launch them into space? Sell them to hungry orcs? 
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2018 : 23:00:00
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Good question.
There is the Vale of Lost Voices. Isn't that more Elven? |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
Edited by - Brimstone on 12 Mar 2018 23:05:15 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2018 : 23:12:55
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| Given the propensity of Zhents and other moonse inhabitants to create undead, I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they burned their dead. They do have the wood handy. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2018 : 00:16:26
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To be honest, I don't know why cremation isn't mandatory in just about any fantasy/horror setting.
And yet, there is also no crematoriums. I guess the local baker serves double-duty.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Mar 2018 00:16:47 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2018 : 01:46:25
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So many areas of the Dales being "nature" oriented, they may leave out their dead.
After being picked clean, the bones may simply be ground up by the family and then scattered in the fields. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2018 : 02:21:20
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| Probably burn them, or buried in the forests. I wonder what kind of answer Ed of the Greenwood would provide. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2018 : 04:57:27
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AD&D 1E Unearthed Arcana has a catch-all ceremony spell. One of the ceremonies available to 1st-level clerics or druids (at least to those of most Good-aligned faiths) is burial (effectively a long-term protection from evil which wards off worldly and otherworldly violations), another ceremony is eternal rest (which "hastens the soul/spirit of the creature to its final resting place" and makes the body immune to raising, resurrection, undeath, and pretty much any other magical violations wimpier than a wish). I suppose it is the power of living faith (and/or a beneficent deity) which consecrates these corpses against bodily and spiritual violations.
AD&D 2E brought ceremony back in the form of an orison (a priest's counterpart to a wizard's "0-level" cantrip), so it was probably less powerful than the 1E version.
I imagine that most communities in the Dalelands have access to a cleric or druid of at least 1st level. And I imagine that elves must have their own version, perhaps something which "hastens the spirit's return to Arvandor and hastens the body's return to nature". Not sure what happened to all the corpses of orc marauders (and other monsters) which apparently have been slaughtered in vast numbers throughout this region.
Another possible answer to Markus's original question is that there are few places filled with dead bodies because most of them have already been reanimated as undead bodies. Grave-robbing in the night is, after all, a time-honoured profession (even practiced by Professional Adventurers!), and in the Realms it could be taken to the final extreme where even the dead bodies themselves are valuable commodities - Zhents happily pay for living slaves, they might just as happily pay for unliving slaves, never enough corpses to go around.
Or - quite the opposite - there are indeed many such burial places. But the people of the Dales have learned to keep them well-hidden, secret groves, cairns, and other burial sites which aren't advertised to strangers and aren't found on any maps. It is even conceivable that some Divine/Elven/Harper/Chosen/Mystra meddling or forest ward or mythal-like effect actively obscures the presence of all such sites from predatory mortals who would seek to desecrate them. |
[/Ayrik] |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2018 : 09:22:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
To be honest, I don't know why cremation isn't mandatory in just about any fantasy/horror setting.
And yet, there is also no crematoriums. I guess the local baker serves double-duty.
Everyone gets cremated in Impiltur.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2018 : 22:22:09
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In my realms people of Dalelands bury their dead in forest to unmarked graves. Funeral pyres are also common and hidden caves and such might be possible based on faith of the family. There are plenty of elven crypts around and possibly some more for human nobles like Dordrien crypts.
Priests have different bural rituals that protect the dead and anybody can also pay for additional protection. Graves in hallowed grounds are less prone to disturbances and spontaneous rising from the grave and at least clerics of Kelemvor and Jergal have ritual to protect the body from animation called Sealing. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2018 : 23:27:48
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Ed explained Faerūn's funerary customs (using Cormyr as an example) in Ed Greenwood Presents: Elminster's Forgotten Realms.
According to that book, "The written or publicly expressed desires of the dead are considered paramount", so if a man wants to be buried under a tree in the lakeside after he dies, that is what usually happens, unless his surviving relatives have a second opinion about it.
As for other people, most dead people is interred by priests of the local priesthoods in specially warded places to protect the bodies from reviving as undead (or at least make rising into undeath unlikely). The bodies of wealthy people are treated magically to avoid this as well (in addition to being interred in a holy land). This "holy land" maybe a temple proper (the crypts below the temple, I mean) or in a plot on consecrated temple grounds for the less wealthy.
So, for your maps, checks temples.
As for the poor people, they are interred in wastelands not so far from the village/town/city, but well away from streams and marshes. But those places have no magical protection against being turned into undead... so, the usual zombie escorting that fellow necromancer may have been one of the poor who died a few days ago. People with known ties to necromancy, or who died from disease or poison are burned instead, and their ashes are interred in regular graves.
You can check for in-deep info in page 105 of Elminster's Forgotten Realms.
That said, since the Thayan invasion in Neverwinter, the people there cremate their dead for fear of necromancers and stuff. Neverdeath Cemetery its just for the people already interred there nowadays (according to the Neverwinter Campaign Setting). |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 14 Mar 2018 23:45:14 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2018 : 02:25:10
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| "Important" characters seem to have a tendency to become ghosts and spectres and banshees, etc. Unfortunate characters can fall victim to wraiths and shadows, becoming one of the very same incorporeal horrors which killed them. Not sure what happens to the physical remains of all these restless spirits. |
[/Ayrik] |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2018 : 11:34:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Thayvian exports.
Lol, only if the undertaker has a Thayvian willing to pay nearby. But, then again, there's always the nearby goblins that have to eat.....
You know, had never really thought about it, but I wonder how many undertakers are secret necromancers. Picturing a cemetery with 3 skeletons with shovels digging a new grave in the middle of the night when no one is watching. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2018 : 21:13:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Ed explained Faerūn's funerary customs (using Cormyr as an example) in Ed Greenwood Presents: Elminster's Forgotten Realms.
According to that book, "The written or publicly expressed desires of the dead are considered paramount", so if a man wants to be buried under a tree in the lakeside after he dies, that is what usually happens, unless his surviving relatives have a second opinion about it.
As for other people, most dead people is interred by priests of the local priesthoods in specially warded places to protect the bodies from reviving as undead (or at least make rising into undeath unlikely). The bodies of wealthy people are treated magically to avoid this as well (in addition to being interred in a holy land). This "holy land" maybe a temple proper (the crypts below the temple, I mean) or in a plot on consecrated temple grounds for the less wealthy.
So, for your maps, checks temples.
As for the poor people, they are interred in wastelands not so far from the village/town/city, but well away from streams and marshes. But those places have no magical protection against being turned into undead... so, the usual zombie escorting that fellow necromancer may have been one of the poor who died a few days ago. People with known ties to necromancy, or who died from disease or poison are burned instead, and their ashes are interred in regular graves.
You can check for in-deep info in page 105 of Elminster's Forgotten Realms.
That said, since the Thayan invasion in Neverwinter, the people there cremate their dead for fear of necromancers and stuff. Neverdeath Cemetery its just for the people already interred there nowadays (according to the Neverwinter Campaign Setting).
Thanks for the info. I went looking in that book first, before posting this thread, but I hadn't seen anything about burying the dead in the index. It's put in a peculiar spot.
Anyhow, it still really didn't answer my question; it only accerbated it. If there are places where people get buried, how come I can't find any outside of larger city maps?
Right now I am looking at Essembra. The only actual temple in the place (in canon) is one to Gond, and Gondsmen - particularly that bunch (they are very unconcerned about anything not having to do with Gond and inventions) - don't bother with the dead, AT ALL. If the temple has any 'catacombs' at all they'd be for the clergy (and maybe some very devout followers with DEEP pockets) only. They're surrounded by Elven Wood, so its not like they are carrying the bodies very far into the wilderness, and there are no plots of ground for this sort of thing anywhere.
I think I am just going to go with "They all cremate now". It just makes the most sense. In actual countries (like Cormyr) there might be different customs and laws, but in 'backwater' areas they should ALWAYS burn their dead. No-one wants great-grandma showing up for tea a decade after she died.
So getting back to Essembra - I CAN see the Gondsmen running a crematorium, if for no other reason than a big ol' furnace is precisely up their alley. However, since the temple is smack-dab in the middle of the enclosed (by walls) portion of town, I think they would have had to eventually set up the crematorium some ways away from the temple proper (because depending on how the wind shifts, no-one wants to be smeling dead, burning grandma either). Not sure if I want it gas-powered; RAS had done something along those lines in his novels (including copper or brass piping to move it around), and that would definitely fit the Gondsmen, but that might be pushing the envelope of 'modern' in The Realms. I have to think more on this. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 15 Mar 2018 21:14:35 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2018 : 21:45:26
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| Yeah, the general topic were Ed talked about how people in the Realms deal with their dead is weird. He just addressed it because he said that grave-digging and grave-robbing are legit jobs for adventurers searching for a name... |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 15 Mar 2018 21:51:00 |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2020 : 15:47:50
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Explorer Markustay,
Wow...I literally never stopped to even think about that. That is a fantastic point.
I noticed Great Reader Darden mentioned that they may just be left out, which is certainly possible. I then noticed that Master Zeromaru X mentioned the listings in Elminster's Forgotten Realms. I find the issues rather interesting. If something wasn't regularly done, especially in more populated areas, to get rid of the dead in a way other than a cemetery, the corpses would be regularly harvested by beasts that you wouldn't want to regularly invite to a dinner table.
Another issue would be the necromancer issues mentioned within here too. Imagine if a locale did in fact have cemetery's, etc. that were maintained but in poorer areas, you would have a "Please come here and raise us in to your army" zone for said necromancer. I think there are quite likely a lot of great issues that could come out of something like this for "adventures", plots, etc.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So I am mapping The Dalelands again ATM (a side-project off of a side-project off of a side-project, etc...), and I am actually digging into the nitty-gritty of specific settlements (mostly looking for juicy geography tidbits), and I noticed something weird - no crypts, mausoleums, graveyards, etc. Do they just burn their dead?
Launch them into space? Sell them to hungry orcs?
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2020 : 15:53:05
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Master Zeromaru X,
I checked page 105 out and it was pretty sparse. I think the part about Thay though is spot on.
People don't want to be raised into undead. I think this would be a perfect way for the faithful of Kelemvor to go and push a hardcore PR campaign to have everyone cremated. I mean, that would literally take all of that raise the dead stuff right out of the mix for so many necromancers.
This is a very interesting topic for possible storyline development in a campaign.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Ed explained Faerūn's funerary customs (using Cormyr as an example) in Ed Greenwood Presents: Elminster's Forgotten Realms.
According to that book, "The written or publicly expressed desires of the dead are considered paramount", so if a man wants to be buried under a tree in the lakeside after he dies, that is what usually happens, unless his surviving relatives have a second opinion about it.
As for other people, most dead people is interred by priests of the local priesthoods in specially warded places to protect the bodies from reviving as undead (or at least make rising into undeath unlikely). The bodies of wealthy people are treated magically to avoid this as well (in addition to being interred in a holy land). This "holy land" maybe a temple proper (the crypts below the temple, I mean) or in a plot on consecrated temple grounds for the less wealthy.
So, for your maps, checks temples.
As for the poor people, they are interred in wastelands not so far from the village/town/city, but well away from streams and marshes. But those places have no magical protection against being turned into undead... so, the usual zombie escorting that fellow necromancer may have been one of the poor who died a few days ago. People with known ties to necromancy, or who died from disease or poison are burned instead, and their ashes are interred in regular graves.
You can check for in-deep info in page 105 of Elminster's Forgotten Realms.
That said, since the Thayan invasion in Neverwinter, the people there cremate their dead for fear of necromancers and stuff. Neverdeath Cemetery its just for the people already interred there nowadays (according to the Neverwinter Campaign Setting).
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2020 : 15:56:17
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Master Zeromaru X,
Another thing that just popped into my head is the idea of treaties being signed by different governments that control abutting lands to mandate cremation, pushed by the faith of Kelemvor of course, to slow the idea of grave robbing, creating undead, etc. I mean, think of this like treating a disease. Scientists start working on this "plague" or whatever you call it. Then, legions of people trying to stop this "global emergency" go out and start cleansing the obvious places: cemetery's, etc.
Wow. Talk about a plotline for adventurers!
I think I may go start a whole new topic on this.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Yeah, the general topic were Ed talked about how people in the Realms deal with their dead is weird. He just addressed it because he said that grave-digging and grave-robbing are legit jobs for adventurers searching for a name...
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Topic |
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Where do the Dales stick their dead?
