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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
 Posted - 22 Feb 2018 : 11:04:37
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Pretty much that.
Let's say the Srinshee failed, and Larloch rose to become the Lord of All Magic. How would things have changed? How would Larloch carry out his new job, and how would the pantheon have reacted?
The first thing he'd do is probably alter Dweomerheart into a deific Netherese enclave, and then move it out of Eronia. The Outlands, Gehenna and Acheron (Ocanthus, specifically) seem to be appropriate spots to set up his divine realm.
Something else he may do is appoint fellow custodians of the Weave, in a mimicry of the lich cabal he once oversaw. He would be the focal point, while eight other deities oversaw the aspects of magic under his dominion. Divination, Illusion and Necromancy would be permanently filled by Savras, Leira and Velsharoon respectively.
His symbol would probably be altered as well; instead of seven stars, he'd alter it to either three stars (for the fields of study in Netheril) or eight (for the schools of magic). He has no particular tie to the Seven Sisters, after all.
I'd imagine that Larloch would demand perfection from his new worshipers. Anything goes as far as magic is concerned, but a wizard should always follow the path of magic and no other. Branching out is permitted if it's into another form of magic (so hexblades, psychic magic casters [from PF], duskblades, magi, dread necromancers, warmages, the hundreds of arcane-related prestige classes), or if it's a path that eventually leads to an understanding of magic (rogue/arcane trickster, cleric/mystic theurge, fighter/eldritch knight, druid/arcane heirophant, etc).
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2018 : 15:33:36
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| What did I miss? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2018 : 15:42:32
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Ed's book in the Sundering Series. Larloch as a Chosen of Mystryl tried to become the God of Magic.
From This source
quote:
In the Year of the Rune Lords Triumphant, 1487 DR, Larloch tried to become the new deity of magic by absorbing the wards of Candlekeep and the mythal of Myth Drannor. Before he could complete the draining of the mythal, however, he was stopped by the Srinshee and Elminster Aumar.[20]
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"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
Edited by - Brimstone on 22 Feb 2018 15:45:16 |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2018 : 16:01:35
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| I think he would have been a hell of a lot better than Mystra to be honest. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2018 : 16:32:18
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So I just had a thought... Keep in mind that I've not read that novel, so I don't know how in line this would be, with that book...
But what if Mystra 1.0 was never intended to be a permanent replacement?
Karsus targets Mystryl for his spell. To break the spell, Mystryl casts away her divinity -- if she's not a goddess, Karsus's spell won't work. So she promotes one of her Chosen, who becomes Mystra 1.0.
Mystra 1.0 had two jobs: fix the Weave, and resurrect Mystryl. However, Mystra 1.0 either opted against that -- perhaps she considered her predecessor a failure, because of Karsus's spell, --- or perhaps she didn't understand her purpose. Either way, she stayed around instead of bringing back Mystryl.
The bit of Mystryl that was in Larloch was not down with this, but couldn't do anything about it. Millennia later, she finally saw a chance to act, and possibly even took over Larloch, pushing him to try to become a deity so that she could return (she would have taken the divinity for herself, not allowing Larloch to have it; if he survived, Larloch would have been a discarded shell). Thus, it wasn't a power play by Larloch; he was just a vessel for Mystryl to try to complete her intended resurrection.
Going this route, you could even spin it that she was somehow influencing Cyric, and had a part in his attack on Mystra 2.0.
Of course, none of this is canon, aside from Larloch being a Chosen of Mystryl and the many flavors of magic goddess. It just occurs to me as a fun alternate spin on things. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2018 : 12:14:59
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I thought the whole "Larloch was a chosen of Mystryl" thing was a lame side effect of the "lets have all the gods and goddesses have a tone of Chosen just so the Shadovar can have targets OTHER than the Chosen of Mystra to abduct" craze of that edition.
Mystra was Mystryl reincarnate - why not simple keep her old Chosen, just like every iteration of Mystra since has done?
Just more remaking old lore into square pegs that will never fit into the old round holes Edition Blah. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2018 : 12:18:54
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Now, if Larloch had succeeded and became Toril's god of magic, I imagine him to become more of a Boccob type god of magic - uncaring.
Larloch would not judge magic-users morals - just their skill and passion for magic.
He might also work to expand into a sort of Wee Jas god of magic and death figure, or perhaps subsume Myrkul at last (he was contained in a magical item at that time, after all) and claim the mantle of god of undeath as well. |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2018 : 13:21:05
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Undeath is Velsharoon's portfolio.
I could see Larloch leaving the minutiae of the other portfolios to his servitor deities. Undeath itself doesn't interest him except as the means to an end, but Velsharoon oversees undeath as part of his overall portfolio of necromancy...sort of like the Zagyg to Larloch's Boccob.
This may spark off an undead revolution in the Realms, where willing undeath is considered to be more socially acceptable, insofar as undeath is acceptable. After all, the greater power of magic and his demigodly servant are both liches. Even Savras utilizes a unique form of lichdom in the form of crystalliches, according to Powers and Pantheons. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2018 : 13:38:20
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| I could also see there being a standoff with Larloch and the gods of knowledge. Basically, they control bardic magic, subservient to the weave... so in my view, they were previously amenable to working with Mystra because she was more neutral. Larloch, for as much as we call him uncaring... he's not... he's evil. He is a controlling personality with intentions towards being a tyrant of magic. I can see the various gods controlling OTHER types of magic as spinning off or creating their own power sources/magic databases (depending on how you view what the weave actually is). So, the gods of psionics, would probably end up spinning off their own psionic medium. Similar bardic magic. Probably similar with warlock patrons. I can also see the divine magic of the gods (both clerical and druidic) seeking to separate themselves out from under Larloch. It may not be easy, but I don't see them wanting to report up that chain of command. Essentially, I see IF that were to happen on Toril, that this "god of magic" would end up becoming the "god of wizards, eldritch knights, and arcane tricksters".... and even the latter two might break out under other deities. I could even see someone like Siamorphe rising up to take on the role for individuals with "magic in the blood", like sorcerers. At the same time, technically is also a lich.... Velsharoon is the god of liches.... and the means of his ascension may have involved similar rituals as Mellifleur and may have brought about the resurgence of Bane.... so basically he MIGHT be able to usurp the incoming divinity from any ascending lich going to godhood who is also acting as a tyrant (which puts an interesting spin on what Szass Tam was doing if you think on it). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2018 : 13:56:30
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Now, if Larloch had succeeded and became Toril's god of magic, I imagine him to become more of a Boccob type god of magic - uncaring.
Larloch would not judge magic-users morals - just their skill and passion for magic.
He might also work to expand into a sort of Wee Jas god of magic and death figure, or perhaps subsume Myrkul at last (he was contained in a magical item at that time, after all) and claim the mantle of god of undeath as well.
*sigh*
I'm getting to the point that I wish that one novel had never been written... Mystra 2.0 judging magic-users was a part of the plot in ONE novel, and she was slapped down for it and stopped doing it in that same novel. It has NEVER had an in-game effect -- and yet, 15 or 20 years later, people are still bitching about it. |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2018 : 14:19:07
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Notably, she was only slapped down when Cyric turned her accusations against him around on her, IIRC. The circle of greater powers pretty much had to censure her too.
It doesn't help that she was portrayed as a bit of a brat. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2018 : 14:29:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
So I just had a thought... Keep in mind that I've not read that novel, so I don't know how in line this would be, with that book...
But what if Mystra 1.0 was never intended to be a permanent replacement?
Karsus targets Mystryl for his spell. To break the spell, Mystryl casts away her divinity -- if she's not a goddess, Karsus's spell won't work. So she promotes one of her Chosen, who becomes Mystra 1.0.
Mystra 1.0 had two jobs: fix the Weave, and resurrect Mystryl. However, Mystra 1.0 either opted against that -- perhaps she considered her predecessor a failure, because of Karsus's spell, --- or perhaps she didn't understand her purpose. Either way, she stayed around instead of bringing back Mystryl.
The bit of Mystryl that was in Larloch was not down with this, but couldn't do anything about it. Millennia later, she finally saw a chance to act, and possibly even took over Larloch, pushing him to try to become a deity so that she could return (she would have taken the divinity for herself, not allowing Larloch to have it; if he survived, Larloch would have been a discarded shell). Thus, it wasn't a power play by Larloch; he was just a vessel for Mystryl to try to complete her intended resurrection.
Going this route, you could even spin it that she was somehow influencing Cyric, and had a part in his attack on Mystra 2.0.
Of course, none of this is canon, aside from Larloch being a Chosen of Mystryl and the many flavors of magic goddess. It just occurs to me as a fun alternate spin on things.
I don't mind this at all, honestly. Even tho Mystryl managed to succeed at that to some degree, since the new Mystra is, according to what I get from Ed's lore, all the previous iterations of the goddess sort of coexisting in one being. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2018 : 18:30:07
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I am desperately trying to avoid 'god talk' (for now), but I do have to comment on one thing -
Mystra's Seven-Star symbol isn't because of her chosen - she had that symbol LONG before she had the Seven Sisters. If anything, she has 'Seven Sisters' for the same exact reason she has seven Stars in her symbol.
Now, onto the topic itself - I see him becoming sort of a cross between Boccob and Wee Jas. He probably would take Undeath from Velsharoon, because he'd be giving Velsharoon necromancy, so its a fair trade (in their eyes, since they're both necromancers). I'd also have him reinstate Azuth as one his 'little gods', along with the other two already mentioned. He'd probably install Szass Tam as the 'new larloch' in Warlock's Crypt, just to keep him from getting antsy (about godhood again). Maybe make him one of his Chosen. That way Thay could also go back to being Old Thay, and we still have our 'Larlock' in the Realms.
Strangely, I don't see him really focusing more attention of the Shadowy side of The Weave, which would probably piss-off Shar. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2018 : 18:32:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
So I just had a thought... Keep in mind that I've not read that novel, so I don't know how in line this would be, with that book...
But what if Mystra 1.0 was never intended to be a permanent replacement?
Karsus targets Mystryl for his spell. To break the spell, Mystryl casts away her divinity -- if she's not a goddess, Karsus's spell won't work. So she promotes one of her Chosen, who becomes Mystra 1.0.
Mystra 1.0 had two jobs: fix the Weave, and resurrect Mystryl. However, Mystra 1.0 either opted against that -- perhaps she considered her predecessor a failure, because of Karsus's spell, --- or perhaps she didn't understand her purpose. Either way, she stayed around instead of bringing back Mystryl.
The bit of Mystryl that was in Larloch was not down with this, but couldn't do anything about it. Millennia later, she finally saw a chance to act, and possibly even took over Larloch, pushing him to try to become a deity so that she could return (she would have taken the divinity for herself, not allowing Larloch to have it; if he survived, Larloch would have been a discarded shell). Thus, it wasn't a power play by Larloch; he was just a vessel for Mystryl to try to complete her intended resurrection.
Going this route, you could even spin it that she was somehow influencing Cyric, and had a part in his attack on Mystra 2.0.
Of course, none of this is canon, aside from Larloch being a Chosen of Mystryl and the many flavors of magic goddess. It just occurs to me as a fun alternate spin on things.
I LIKE this, because its really 'outside the box' thinking.
And the level of convolutedness of it all makes me think you've been listening to my own ramblings in these halls far too long.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2018 : 19:32:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Now, if Larloch had succeeded and became Toril's god of magic, I imagine him to become more of a Boccob type god of magic - uncaring.
Larloch would not judge magic-users morals - just their skill and passion for magic.
He might also work to expand into a sort of Wee Jas god of magic and death figure, or perhaps subsume Myrkul at last (he was contained in a magical item at that time, after all) and claim the mantle of god of undeath as well.
*sigh*
I'm getting to the point that I wish that one novel had never been written... Mystra 2.0 judging magic-users was a part of the plot in ONE novel, and she was slapped down for it and stopped doing it in that same novel. It has NEVER had an in-game effect -- and yet, 15 or 20 years later, people are still bitching about it.
Not exactly... Mystra 1.0 even judged the ethics of magic use, and 2.0 always did it. I agree, not to the same extent as she started to in that one novel but she did.
It is easiest to see in the actions of her servants. They actively work against evil use of magic. Now - they don't necessarily go around smiting every ebil spellcaster, but work against them and their minions all the time and try to prevent groups of spellcaster from gaining too much power.
Mystra 1.0 sought "balance." Basically she fought for neutral ethics, which in almost everything we've ever seen of her amounted to knocking the big bads down a peg when they get too out of line.
More notably, she was all about order - "follow the rules boys!" - magic's got to have rules. Chaos is SOOO not Mystra's thing.
I'm not saying any of this is bad, it is just very different than an uncaring god of magic who wants everyone using all the magic they can all the time and creating more and more magic but never really helping anyone get there. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2018 : 20:53:06
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No, they didn't work against evil use of magic. They worked against those whose use of magic acted against the spread of magic. It's not quite the same thing - an evil mage can practice magic all that he wants, so long as he's not trying to keep magic away from others.
Mystra is about the spread of magic. She doesn't like it when people hoard it to themselves. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2018 : 22:00:58
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Or kill others too much or be a tyrant or conqueror or decide you want to make lots of undead dragons or do basically anything at all that evil individuals do. She had no similar qualms about the do gooders - this means she was not even really neutral, but leaned toward the side of good.
Just look at Elminster - her number 1 boy.
Otherwise, why wouldn't Larloch have been her Chosen? He's obviously more powerful than the others. Why have him stop being Mystryl's chosen as Mystra unless his desire for power - the cornerstone of EBIL - was not in line with her new views. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2018 : 23:38:41
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Again, she's all about the spread of magic. Good mages don't try to prevent that.
And why would she have to take someone who was already Chosen and make him Chosen again? Besides, we already know from Ed that she explicitly told her Chosen to leave Larloch alone. Not stop him, not kill him, but to leave him alone to do his thing. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 23 Feb 2018 23:39:28 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2018 : 01:11:50
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| We really cannot judge Mystra when Mystryl was more tyrannical than her in controlling magic. Mystra at least allowed ebil ones to use magic, even if she later trowed her followers against them. This an improvement compared to withholding magic if you don' t worship her. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 24 Feb 2018 01:12:37 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2018 : 08:23:03
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True, good mages dont try that, but then, I'd argue Neutral gods by definition don't prefer good... That's what good gods do :D
We know Larloch has no access to the silver fire. So being a Chosen of Mystryl was different to being a Chosen of Mystra. Mystryl didn't store her power in her Chosen as Mystra did - I assume this is because Mystra came on that idea after Mystryl died as her stop-gap. We also know that Larloch desires the silver fire. He obviously is capable of conveying this to the goddess. This means that he was deliberately not Chosen by Mystra - for whatever reason; my guess is he's too evil for her liking :P (you know, because she likes good guys) :P
Mystryl didn't deny non-worshipers magic. In fact, a big group of non-worshipers, who didn't think gods even deserved worship, had access to more and greater magic than any modern magic-users, including the survivors. Don't know where you got that idea. If some novel said that chalk it up to more bad writing because it is a complete reversal. In fact, if a time traveler came to Toril when Mystryl was in charge she would grant them magic if their god did not exist at that time because she's the goddess of time travel :P Trippy.
When Midnight became Mystra she tried doing this with some mortals and it ended up with her being pretty much punked in a trial by gods when she was schooled in how to behave. That's the only instance I know of the goddess of magic denying non-worshipers magic. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2429 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2018 : 09:57:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Mystra 1.0 had two jobs: fix the Weave, and resurrect Mystryl. However, Mystra 1.0 either opted against that -- perhaps she considered her predecessor a failure, because of Karsus's spell, --- or perhaps she didn't understand her purpose. Either way, she stayed around instead of bringing back Mystryl.
That's an interesting variant.
As to the reason, maybe self-preservation, maybe differences in view (LN vs. CN)...
Or it was impossible due to Pauli exclusion principle decree of Ao because only states with 0 or 1 goddesses of Magic are possible, while "2 goddesses of magic" is not, so she would need to step down before the final step, and setting it up safely would have been... tricky.
quote:
The bit of Mystryl that was in Larloch was not down with this, but couldn't do anything about it. Millennia later, she finally saw a chance to act, and possibly even took over Larloch, pushing him
Not how it works. Full autonomy/free will is half of the whole point.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm getting to the point that I wish that one novel had never been written... Mystra 2.0 judging magic-users was a part of the plot in ONE novel, and she was slapped down for it and stopped doing it in that same novel. It has NEVER had an in-game effect
Perhaps, but given how out of it both Cyric and Kelemvor acted, it would be weird if she didn't pull something even moderately inadequate.
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Or kill others too much or be a tyrant or conqueror or decide you want to make lots of undead dragons or do basically anything at all that evil individuals do. She had no similar qualms about the do gooders - this means she was not even really neutral, but leaned toward the side of good.
Not really. An example is Red Wizards. Can't allow them to run wild, can't allow Simbul to simply exterminate them either, because they're major stream of magic research, and when only moderately dangerous, "encourage" others via old good arms race.
Sammaster's followers are essentially a walking blasphemy against her, and less than promising as a magic tradition in general (they mostly cribbed it from their predecessors up to Sammaster). And even actively hindering magical research by press-ganging other wizards in Sembia. They were treated accordingly. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2018 : 10:04:20
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I imagine that Larloch would point blank strip away all status of Chosen from the current Chosen, and choose to vest in it in his servitor powers.
In addition, I could see him petitioning AO to strip Shar of the Shadow Weave, as it directly infringes on his domain. That, or in her aspect as Mistress of the Shadow Weave, she'd have to answer to him in his role of Lord of All Magic. As a lawful god, he wouldn't tolerate the 'splitting' of the Weave and the Shadow Weave; I imagine that just to insult Shar, he'd kick the whole thing off to Leira and Velsharoon, going "My dudes, here's your new job. Don't screw up."
All things considered, I see him striking alliances with Boccob, Wee Jas (even if he disdains the fact that she splits her domain between the irrelevance of death and the superiority of magic), Ilsensine and Mellifleur. He'd be opposed to Abraxas, a chaotic power of magic, and Lathander. Relations with the House of Knowledge would be neutral - Oghma's pretty chill (in the novels, both a celestial and a tanar'ri are perusing his library) but the good gods would be uneasy. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2018 : 17:30:14
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
I imagine that Larloch would point blank strip away all status of Chosen from the current Chosen, and choose to vest in it in his servitor powers.
In addition, I could see him petitioning AO to strip Shar of the Shadow Weave, as it directly infringes on his domain. That, or in her aspect as Mistress of the Shadow Weave, she'd have to answer to him in his role of Lord of All Magic. As a lawful god, he wouldn't tolerate the 'splitting' of the Weave and the Shadow Weave; I imagine that just to insult Shar, he'd kick the whole thing off to Leira and Velsharoon, going "My dudes, here's your new job. Don't screw up."
All things considered, I see him striking alliances with Boccob, Wee Jas (even if he disdains the fact that she splits her domain between the irrelevance of death and the superiority of magic), Ilsensine and Mellifleur. He'd be opposed to Abraxas, a chaotic power of magic, and Lathander. Relations with the House of Knowledge would be neutral - Oghma's pretty chill (in the novels, both a celestial and a tanar'ri are perusing his library) but the good gods would be uneasy.
Bear in mind... Larloch's not about the spread of knowledge. He's a hoarder if I've ever seen one. The only reason he shares is to get something in return. That's why I see him and the House of Knowledge not getting along. It goes against the idea of "I want to spread knowledge", and would encourage the hoarding of magical secrets even more than mages currently do. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2018 : 20:12:43
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But here's the thing... larloch is smart, and if he simply 'seizes all magic', they're won't be any new magic. He'd probably promote new ways of doing things (and thus, the spreading of knowledge), if, for no other reason, he then 'owns' that new knowledge, and is empowered by it.
We've seen Larloch 'trade' for stuff (with Szass Tam), so he's not so much a hoarder (as a dragon... or my sister.. would be), but rather, more of a 'collector'. A true hoarder doesn't part with any piece of its hoard - its a form of mental illness. Larloch appears to be more than will to trade-away stuff he doesn't need for stuff he does, so I get the impression he hoards as a means to an end, rather than hoarding for hoarding's sake. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2018 : 20:29:11
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Yeah, I agree... he's all about keeping knowledge hidden unless trading it opens up something for him. That level of secrecy isn't just a personality trait that one can just turn off. Its ingrained.... built up over time.... I've seen many a smart person with this personality trait. Even when they KNOW its good for them, its still hard for them to share. It builds up like a paranoia to a degree where they spend so much time pondering all the options that they can't make very many effective exchanges. If he became a god... that's still going to be in there.
Perhaps the best way I can explain the difference is comparing a network engineer and a network security engineer. When someone starts out as a network engineer, their job is all about "opening access"/"making things work"/"giving people the capability to do something new". When they advance to becoming a network security engineer, it becomes about "making sure people don't have access"/"making sure they can't get in"/"only allowing the minimum". If they truly become good at network security, they can never turn that trait back off. The ability to trust is hampered.
I see Larloch as one of the most effective masters of secrecy within the realms. His ability to trust and share is hampered by his ingrained need to keep his security measures in place. Even if he WANTS to go back to the free soul that he may have been in his youth, he just can't. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2018 : 22:24:39
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Mystryl didn't deny non-worshipers magic. In fact, a big group of non-worshipers, who didn't think gods even deserved worship, had access to more and greater magic than any modern magic-users, including the survivors. Don't know where you got that idea. If some novel said that chalk it up to more bad writing because it is a complete reversal. In fact, if a time traveler came to Toril when Mystryl was in charge she would grant them magic if their god did not exist at that time because she's the goddess of time travel :P Trippy.
Most worshipers of the Lady of Mysteries were human, but all natives of Faerûn who sought to become powerful in magic without benefit of divine aid at least appeased the goddess with sacrifices. Those who didn’t seemed to rise to great heights of knowledge, but their grasp of the Art was forever flawed and their ultimate goals forever beyond their reach.
This is from the Netheril boxed set. You're right, she didn't denied them magic. Just ensured they always were mediocre casters. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2018 : 18:43:06
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I have one question - where is this wonderful Imaskar sourcebook people love to reference?
An empire that lasted thousands of years, that we've got maybe a dozen, very generic pages on (and most of that covers their 'ruins', relics, and survivor-states), and that we even have much conflicting material about... and everyone seems to be an expert on the place. As far as I am concerned, every single version of Imaskar is 'homebrew', because we just don't really know what imaskar was like. We have the 'big picture' general idea, but that doesn't really tell us at all about the individual people.
Take Netheril for example - everyone thinks of them as the 'old Ebil Empire' that fell because of its hubris. That's just how folks remember it (and the return of Shade did nothing to help that reputation). In fact, I would say Thultanthar was an exception, not the rule. There were plenty of 'good' Netherese, but all we have left are the ghosts, liches, and damn Shades, so of course people are going to get the completely wrong impression. But at least for Netheril, we have a box, and know that like just about every other civilization, its people (and cities) ran the gamut of alignments and attitudes about stuff.
So who's the most famous living Imaskari? Halaster. We know Mystra respects him - he probably was a chosen of Mystryl just as Larloch was, and we know he had dealings with Shar as well. Now, that doesn't sound like much of an 'atheist' to me. Quite the contrary. Also, the lore of DoD (and YES, I realize that wasn't originally written for FR, but get over it) suggests that the Imaskari were HIGHLY interested in religions - in fact, it doesn't seem they 'picked just one'. They were fully aware of 'The Gods' (hence, the Godwall), and seemed to be studying these beings, in depth (extrapolation from the DoD material through the filter of 5 editions and 'new information'). And I am only saying 'studying' to get things more in-line with the canon of Imaskar, because those 'temples' seemed to have been fully functional (rather than just 'mock-ups', which is how I spin them now... more homebrew). Later, after imaskar fell, some of the survivor-states used those mock-temples and actually started worshiping some of those gods (more DoD), but that was in the aftermath, so it all makes sense (because wouldn't you want to appease gods after snubbing them worked out so poorly?)
Sorry, but I just don't see the Imaskari as 'sacrilegious'. Quite the opposite - I get a whole different vibe from them, and their 'religion' would probably be unrecognizable today (something combining neo-druidism with High magic) If you look at two of their most successful survivor-states - Narfel and Raumathar - their magic seemed to have a very nature-based tinge to it (at least Raumathar's did - you see a LOT of evidence of that in the Frostfell novel, and also in the culture of Rashemen).
I have some theories as to what their religion may have been like, based upon their interaction with the Fey, which makes perfect sense, because the Fey would not look at gods as GODS. They know what gods actually are, and what they are capable of, and what they are not capable of. That means they may have shared that wisdom with the Imaskari - that Gods are NOT omnipotent (or omni-anything else) - they are flawed, have weaknesses, and can be overcome... something you DON'T find in anyone else's religious teachings (good, bad, or otherwise).
So don't confuse Higher Awareness with atheism. The Imaskari - masters of magic and rulers of all they sought to take (on their world and others) - felt non-confident enough about 'The Gods' to actually build a wall... something someone who is 'afraid' would do. They didn't want the Mulan gods showing up, because they KNEW what would happen (and DID). That's not disregard - thats fear & respect. Don't kid yourself, the Imaskari had hubris to spare, just like the Netherese, but they weren't stupid. They never tried to steal Mystryl's 'crown' from her. Just like they didn't bother with Spelljamming, and kept their mass-abductions as 'low-key' (hid their tracks) as best they could - you don't go picking fights you may not be able to win. That's a lesson the Netherese seemed to have never learned. I'm fairly certain the Imaskari would have had temples to Mystryl, because it would have been dumb of them to have not at least 'paid her lip-service'.
To not pay her any respect at all, would be akin to wanting a promotion and raise at work, but then going into work everyday and spitting on your boss. The Imaskari just weren't that damn stupid. They were masters of summoning magic - they summoned Elder Evils! 'Arse-kissing' is Demonology 101 at the college of summoning. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2018 : 23:32:49
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I'd argue that knowing a god exists and has power and being aware and fearful of the results of crossing that power - especially in a world where those gods openly use those powers - is not the same as being religious. Its not exactly Atheism, but similar to a pantheistic agnosticism (over-complicated term but I stand by it :P)
As far as I know there is no real Imaskar sourcebook, so I'm guessing you were being facetious on that.
Most of my own conclusions about the Imaskari come from their roles in those late 2nd early 3rd E novels. Purple rocks and doomsday weapons and such. The rest pretty much all seems speculation, including Halaster; frankly if he had been alive since ancient Imaskar, even if he was only earning like 10 XP a year he'd be level 50 or so... I know there are ways to spend XP but still - the math doesn't work very well. PS - I don't think he ever died - I think his soul bits and pieces were a new kind of projected image he invented that allowed him to separate all the voices in his head. So now there is a not crazy Halaster down there with hundreds of Halaster ghost eyes and ears all over :D MY speculation :).
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2018 : 23:57:33
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I WAS being facetious. I just meant that so many 'lorelords' (myself included) all seem to 'know' Imaskar, when we really know almost nothing. Its all guesswork (which is a shame, because as much as I hated 4e bringing them back, it was a missed opportunity to get a glimpse of their actual culture).
'Pantheistic Agnoticism' - I LIKE it!  Our views aren't as far apart as I thought.
As for Halaster - I think he 'split' himself at some point. Figured-out how to make a clone at the same time as he was around. In canon, he supposedly slept right through Netheril (he was in suspended animation or some-such), but I HATE that. Why would an archmage do something like that to themselves on purpose? No, I think that was his clone put back 'in storage' (and may still be, or it might have awoken after his soul was Shattered). Anyhow, my idea for Halaster is that back in old Imaskar, there were really two of him, and the Exp. was 'split', so if he didn't recombine with his second half, he'd only have half the levels, so it all works out.
Which means, in 5e, we could have an even more powerful version of Halaster, if he managed to recombine. And with my little McGuffin of half of him being 'put on ice' elsewhere, this means some of that Shar-crazy may have gotten back in (and it may have even gotten worse - more like a duel personality now). One minute he's baking you cookies, the next he's pulling the wings off of Pegasi.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Feb 2018 23:58:59 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2018 : 02:02:21
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Imaskar has been greatly muddied by the fiction line. It's redeemable, but needs a ton of work.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2018 : 03:49:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Which means, in 5e, we could have an even more powerful version of Halaster, if he managed to recombine. And with my little McGuffin of half of him being 'put on ice' elsewhere, this means some of that Shar-crazy may have gotten back in (and it may have even gotten worse - more like a duel personality now). One minute he's baking you cookies, the next he's pulling the wings off of Pegasi.
The flipside is that Halaster-on-ice may be 100% sane. That Halaster didn't anchor himself to 10,000 spells in Undermountain *and* have dealings with Shar.
And there could be more than one clone. In fact, maybe Manshoon's development of the stasis clone spell wasn't as innovative as it's been described... Keep in mind, one of the Manshoon clones did take refuge in Undermountain. |
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What If: Larloch succeeded?
