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Tigon
Acolyte
USA
47 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Feb 2018 : 09:08:56
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Confirmed on 1/22/18 by Chris Perkins (@ChrisPerkinsDnD on twitter) on the D&D youtube channel: Dragon Talk Lore You Should Know
Graz'zt was indeed a devil from Baator originally
https://youtu.be/oWss8x9bF78?t=37m45s
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Tigon
Acolyte
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2018 : 10:54:01
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Further investigation found this to be stated in the 4th edition Manual of the Planes on page 130
"Graz’zt was once a devil and a trusted advisor to Asmodeus, who charged Graz’zt with invading the Abyss and seizing the evil seed that created it (see “The Birth of the Abyss” sidebar, Monster Manual, page 52). Graz’zt’s initial invasion was successful, and he managed to seize three layers of the Abyss. However, pressure from Orcus and Demogorgon stalled Graz’zt’s descent toward the heart of evil. Graz’zt eventually rejected his heritage and turned the conquered territory into his own kingdom. Today, he is one of the most powerful demon princes. And whether he truly spurned the Nine Hells or is secretly colluding with Asmodeus is known only to Graz’zt. Regardless, that doesn’t preclude a change of allegiances later." |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2018 : 20:09:48
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| Jeebus...they just have to screw with everything. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2018 : 21:05:00
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*Blink* Well with polymorph a being can turn themselves into a different race. This sounds a bit extreme.
I do recall from first Edition that polymorph other could result in perment change. I do not recall any Edition that polymorph self did so. *shrugs*
In the end of things of course mere mortals never can know or understand all the powers of higher powers. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2018 : 22:33:41
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This has been the case since 4e came out - this is an OLD argument.
Graz'zt ISN'T anything. Graz'zt is GRAZ'ZT. He predates the concept of devils & demons. Everything else is mortal supposition. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2018 : 22:38:51
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| Yeah, they said this years and years ago...I ignored it then and I'm ignoring it now. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1271 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2018 : 01:49:54
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| Didn't this whole devil who became a demon thing come up in the Last Mythal Trilogy? I was unaware it was a 4e thing, but that's only because because I never dug into it. Who was Graz'zt prior to this? Sorry, I'm curious now. |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2018 : 01:59:08
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| Like I said in the other thread - just one more idiotic 4th E thing. Bad writing from bad writers thinking they know more about D&D the the creator of D&D. Ignore this and all the rest of their stupidity. |
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redking
Learned Scribe
141 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2018 : 01:59:31
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In the Gygax authored Gordon the Rogue novels, Graz'zt was revealed to be from a unique race of dark skinned humanoid demons.
These demons were segregated from the Tanar'ri. |
Edited by - redking on 17 Feb 2018 02:00:42 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2018 : 02:01:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Jeebus...they just have to screw with everything.
Coming soon - Demogorgon is actually an orangutan who could not find any lunch and so became grumpy. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2018 : 03:28:46
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Jeebus...they just have to screw with everything.
Coming soon - Demogorgon is actually an orangutan who could not find any lunch and so became grumpy.
If we give him a Snickers, does he revert to being Curious George?  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2018 : 04:06:22
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| Only if its an enchanted +6 snickers with extra nugat. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2018 : 05:51:34
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I thought his mom was an Orangutan and his dad was an Ettin. 
quote:
Originally posted by Delwa
Didn't this whole devil who became a demon thing come up in the Last Mythal Trilogy? I was unaware it was a 4e thing, but that's only because because I never dug into it. Who was Graz'zt prior to this? Sorry, I'm curious now.
As I said earlier, Graz'zt is GRAZ'ZT. He's 'his own thing'. He predates the concept of 'races', and demons & devils.
quote:
Originally posted by redking
In the Gygax authored Gordon the Rogue novels, Graz'zt was revealed to be from a unique race of dark skinned humanoid demons.
These demons were segregated from the Tanar'ri.
Which not only ties into exactly what I just said above, but it also shoe-horns nicely with my idea that Graz'zt is unique, or part of a 'group of uniques' (now thats and oxymoron if I ever heard one... like a 'religion of agnostics').
Graz'zt's momma was an Obyrith. We don't even know who his father was, or if he even HAD a father (because lord know how procreation worked in the 'Otherverse'). His mother is/was Pale Night, a unique creature in her own right, and not form this (D&D) universe. Graz'zt was NEVER a Tanar'ri, nor was he ever a Baatezu ('native' races to their respective planes). For a time he was a devil, and then he became a demon, but those are JUST ADDRESSES.
For example, I am an American. I am also 'of northern European decent'. So although I live in America, I am NOT a 'Native American'. You CAN BE a demon and NOT be a Tanar'ri, and you CAN BE a devil without being a Baatezu. In fact, in the Baatezu's case, they're not even 'aboriginal' - the Baatorans were. Another good example is Lolth - she was a Dark Elf (or some sort archfey that resembled Dark Elves), she was NEVER a Tanar'ri... yet she was a 'demon queen'. It just tells us where they live, that's all. By the same exact token, we could have been calling Tiamat a 'devil' all along (but for whatever reason, we give dragons a pass on all that).
I LOVE this piece of lore that Graz'zt was part of some other group living in lower planes, that the other groups shunned, because that sounds precisely how I am picturing the 'children of the Obyriths', who would have been among the 'first gods' (not the Elder Gods, or Estelar - they were 'second generation' beings born of this universe. For all we know, there could even be a few celestial counted among that 'odd group'.
And since the (4e) Obyriths "killed the Baernaloths and took their stuff", maybe we can repurpose the Baeraloths title? What if that group of 'unfathomable' beings are the hybrids? Creatures born of the Obyriths but of this universe? It probably would have worked-out better the other way around, but I don't know if that's doable within the 4e lore (then again, this craps on that lore nearly as much, so we could flip it, and then say Graz'zt is an Obyrith... but then we'd have to respin Pale Night as Baernaloth, and I doubt anyone would like that).
Thus, I would keep the Obyriths as the 'unfathomable creature form a another universe', and have the Baernaloths be their 'children'. And although that turns on some 2e lore, it works within the newer 4e framework, and we could always chalk it up to 'fiendish lying' (the Baernaloths bragged, and the Obyriths could care less). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 27 Feb 2018 06:07:19 |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2018 : 16:43:37
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| Baernaloths do exist in 4e, though they are only briefly mentioned in relation to their "purported" service to Anthraxus (renamed Phraxas by an editor). See Demonomicon sourcebook. |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2018 : 01:27:08
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Okay, but Obyriths got 'a lot of their stuff', so now we need to repsin the baernaloths.
So if we say that the Baernaloths are some truly ancient group - not Obyriths but related to them - that predate demons and devils (all of which I believe held true pre-4e), then its entirely possible we can call these unknown beings that Graz'zt was apart of originally (from Gary Gygax's own works), the Baernaloths. Not exactly what they were before, but as I said, the Obyriths stole some of their thunder (they became the pre-universe BBG's), and by making them related (native-born version of the Obyrith), they get to steal a little bit of that back.
And since I think Araushnee was Graz'zr's sister, she gets to be a Baernloth too.
(my homebrew cosmology, of course).
I'd love to say that she was the child of Pale Nigh and Corellon, but then things would get a bit 'icky' (although, if you procreate with something you created, is that really incest? Its not like these cosmic-level beings are using physical bodies for any of this stuff). Then again, I personally find that Corellon is already 'creepy' enough. Using Gruumsh would just make Corellon her uncle, which is nearly as bad. Plus, I have other plans for Gruumsh.
I guess I'll have to repurpose the lore I did for Shar, since Shar's story had to change as well. I had Shar as the daughter of Erebus, the 'Guardian of the Veil' (between universes), so now instead I could say Araushnee was the daughter of Erebus (an Eternal) and Pale Night. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2018 : 22:37:01
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This is why I hate when they mess with the lore in edition changes when it's completely unnecessary. Mechanics should be changes, yes, but NOT the lore.
Grazz't was given an origin via the Mother of Demons in 3rd Edition's "Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of The Abyss." So I dunno why the sudden change to him formerly being a Devil. That doesn't sit right with anything, really. |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2018 : 15:46:21
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Senior Scribe Razz,
I completely agree with you there. If they were smart, for customer satisfaction, they would literally have loremasters that work for WotC that would ensure continuity of story/history. Of course, companies hate doing this, because they then become beholden to those individuals who have a very considerable amount of not easily replicated skills that could lead to open ended contract negotiations. In light of the entire RPG industry in the U.S. and Canada being approximately $45 million in 2016 (https://icv2.com/articles/news/view/38012/hobby-games-market-over-1-4-billion), I can imagine that WotC and others are very reticent to do things that expose their likely paper thin margins to something like that. The unfortunate reality is that we then get this kind of thing.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Razz
This is why I hate when they mess with the lore in edition changes when it's completely unnecessary. Mechanics should be changes, yes, but NOT the lore.
Grazz't was given an origin via the Mother of Demons in 3rd Edition's "Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of The Abyss." So I dunno why the sudden change to him formerly being a Devil. That doesn't sit right with anything, really.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2018 : 17:27:00
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TSR used to employ a "traffic cop" to try to maintain continuity. That wasn't his sole responsibility, but it was one of his duties.
They later decided they didn't need a traffic cop; this very conveniently coincided with the release of 3E, when they began casually disregarding past lore and creating retcons on a whim.
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Senior Scribe Razz,
I completely agree with you there. If they were smart, for customer satisfaction, they would literally have loremasters that work for WotC that would ensure continuity of story/history. Of course, companies hate doing this, because they then become beholden to those individuals who have a very considerable amount of not easily replicated skills that could lead to open ended contract negotiations. In light of the entire RPG industry in the U.S. and Canada being approximately $45 million in 2016 (https://icv2.com/articles/news/view/38012/hobby-games-market-over-1-4-billion), I can imagine that WotC and others are very reticent to do things that expose their likely paper thin margins to something like that. The unfortunate reality is that we then get this kind of thing.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Razz
This is why I hate when they mess with the lore in edition changes when it's completely unnecessary. Mechanics should be changes, yes, but NOT the lore.
Grazz't was given an origin via the Mother of Demons in 3rd Edition's "Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of The Abyss." So I dunno why the sudden change to him formerly being a Devil. That doesn't sit right with anything, really.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2018 : 18:14:26
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| Didn't WotC say that Ed was going to be the Realms "Traffic Cop" for 5e? I wonder how long that lasted... |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2018 : 18:26:20
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Master Rupert,
I didn't realize that: very interesting. Yes, it is ironic that it all went away at that 3rd edition time, isn't it? This is WotC's MO afterall.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
TSR used to employ a "traffic cop" to try to maintain continuity. That wasn't his sole responsibility, but it was one of his duties.
They later decided they didn't need a traffic cop; this very conveniently coincided with the release of 3E, when they began casually disregarding past lore and creating retcons on a whim.
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Senior Scribe Razz,
I completely agree with you there. If they were smart, for customer satisfaction, they would literally have loremasters that work for WotC that would ensure continuity of story/history. Of course, companies hate doing this, because they then become beholden to those individuals who have a very considerable amount of not easily replicated skills that could lead to open ended contract negotiations. In light of the entire RPG industry in the U.S. and Canada being approximately $45 million in 2016 (https://icv2.com/articles/news/view/38012/hobby-games-market-over-1-4-billion), I can imagine that WotC and others are very reticent to do things that expose their likely paper thin margins to something like that. The unfortunate reality is that we then get this kind of thing.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Razz
This is why I hate when they mess with the lore in edition changes when it's completely unnecessary. Mechanics should be changes, yes, but NOT the lore.
Grazz't was given an origin via the Mother of Demons in 3rd Edition's "Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of The Abyss." So I dunno why the sudden change to him formerly being a Devil. That doesn't sit right with anything, really.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2018 : 18:27:42
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Great Reader Brimstone,
Oh gods, that must have lasted like a good bull ride in time! Ed would have #REKT them in a profoundly epic, and destructive manner with the insanity that have going on in reinventing the canon of the Realms in the most 5th grade way imaginable.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
Didn't WotC say that Ed was going to be the Realms "Traffic Cop" for 5e? I wonder how long that lasted...
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2018 : 21:22:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
Didn't WotC say that Ed was going to be the Realms "Traffic Cop" for 5e? I wonder how long that lasted...
If they did say that, they either changed their minds, or simply decided to ignore him. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2018 : 22:23:47
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| AFAIK, that lasted the same amount of time the novels lasted in 5e (so, like nothing...) |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2018 : 02:23:54
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| I'm relatively certain we noticed and griped about this at least once before. |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2018 : 17:10:13
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I'm relatively certain we noticed and griped about this at least once before.
And we will gripe about it again in the not so near future!
Sometimes I think WotC is like that abusive lover. The lover that will promise the Sun, The Tears of Selune, and the Stars, to get us back. Only to revert to his old ways when the design crew that made those promises, are all laid off, and a new group of designers take over and are like, why did they do this, this, and this, when this, this, and this is better? Then after 4 or 5 years when their jobs are on the line, "oh Realms fans that we ignored or blew off, please come back, we promise to make it right"!  |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
Edited by - Brimstone on 17 Oct 2018 17:14:44 |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2018 : 13:28:17
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Great Reader Brimstone,
You could not have said it better. That pretty much encapsulates the reality of how WotC functions. To drop one more bit in there, we do enable the upper management who are the only legacy management usually, in between design teams. The design teams do exactly as you identified, and when they get laid off, etc., and upper management hires new employees to again screw it all up, they come back panhandling for the dollars at our doorsteps once more. The ugly truth is that we should vote with our dollars, but if enough customers did so to catch their attention, drop their sales enough for Hasbro to notice, they would likely just sell it off, or shelve it as an asset product line and it would just be done. The way WotC handles its product lines and assets is stunningly dysfunctional.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I'm relatively certain we noticed and griped about this at least once before.
And we will gripe about it again in the not so near future!
Sometimes I think WotC is like that abusive lover. The lover that will promise the Sun, The Tears of Selune, and the Stars, to get us back. Only to revert to his old ways when the design crew that made those promises, are all laid off, and a new group of designers take over and are like, why did they do this, this, and this, when this, this, and this is better? Then after 4 or 5 years when their jobs are on the line, "oh Realms fans that we ignored or blew off, please come back, we promise to make it right"!
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Confirmed by WOTC: Graz'zt was originally a devil
