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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2427 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Feb 2018 : 07:55:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Basically, a way to 'break the cosmic rules' of having more avatars than you are allowed according to your DvR (in other words, purposely hiding some of your DvR so you could theoretically bypass the 'level-20 cap').
Between the avatars and mortal priests, there are also proxies.
Speaking of whom - both Proxies and Chosen are "champions infused with divine power", but also resemble other known cases:
Proxies: are given a direct link to the power. Much like living power keys - not quite the same sort of link, but then holy symbols and consecrated areas/objects also are links of different types. The proxy-hood follows the rules similar to that of power keys: e.g. it's often temporary, and even the "permanent" version can be withdrawn unilaterally and at will (if perhaps not instantly) by the issuer.
Chosen: are given power of their own, which is much like a sponsored divine ascension, only partial. They follow the rules of powers who aren't gods, e.g. it can be only taken from their cold dead hands.
The two apparently can be combined, resulting in proxies who themselves count as low-grade powers (as Mimir mentions, the Valkyries). Presumably the result is also sum of the parts: more independent than proxies, more powerful than either type of powered-up champions, but not as "expensive" as sponsoring a full ascension (which is why Odin got a whole swarm of them).
quote:
I guess all demigods/Chosen/Exarchs are types of liches; your 'mortal life' ends, and now you are basically immortal, infused with 'divine might'. Elminster is just a fleshy, breathing lich
That's stretching the term so far that it tears in two, and then beating one half to death with another.  |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2018 : 08:43:21
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Well, that's why 'undead' gods never made sense to me - ALL (ascended) Gods are undead! Their mortal life ended, and now they are something else entirely (and in most non-western European religions and folklore, gods are just the most powerful 'spirits', or 'Kami').
Elminster doesn't die (even when reduced to dust!), and technically he doesn't need to eat or breath (he IS a demigod, afterall), and lots of people find him scary, and he is kinda gross (at times) - whats not lichy about him? 
And since we are on this whole 'definition of lich' thing (which seems to be expanding to mean just about ANY intelligent, corporeal undead), I was watching a show about vampires tonight, and extremely powerful one (probably THE most powerful) was being controlled by a group who had his heart. The only way to kill a vampire permanently is to drive a piece of wood through its heart (and even that's not permanent, if the stake is later removed). They did get into the real way to permanently kill one (it was a very complex procedure, but nothing haven't heard before). Anyway, that made the whole thing like Davey Jones from PotC - folk like that don't actually need their organs. At least, not inside their bodies (so yeah, now I am saying Davey Jones was a Lich  ). In fact, maybe that's why mummies (another type of 'Ancient Dead') have their organs removed - keep them separate and protected. What if each organ acted like a separate phylactory, containing a piece of the mummy's soul (so now we're back to horcruxes).
Which made me realize - Vampires ARE liches! They're phylactory is their heart! 
I do this stuff because I like to dig at folklore, etc. Until I can get to a 'root' creature, myth, or being. Now I have it for intelligent corporeal undead (unintelligent undead are just automatons - I don't even know why that's considered necromancy; it has very little to do with death). In order to stay on the prime material pane, the soul MUST be bound to something physical, and even if you destroy the creature itself, so long as the soul-receptacle is intact you get to come back again. A vampire's is his heart - it is literally the only part of him that matters (unlike zombies, vamps can even get their heads cut off without a problem).
Of course, this completely screws up my ideas about why mirrors don't work on them (that vampires have no soul). Hmmm.... actually, I can still make it work. In fact, it may have even gotten more flavorful... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 06 Feb 2018 08:46:06 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2018 : 16:43:12
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The problem categorized gods in AD&D is it has some very blurry lines that are ill defined.
The old D&D had "immortals" instead which had much clearer divisions of power, divided by level and by category (thought, matter, entropy, etc.). In this system, Chosen and Baneliches would have been low-level (1st through maybe 5th level - note that 36 levels were possible, although there were also the "Old Ones" that were presumably beyond god status and like Ao) immortals.
In AD&D - at least in Gary G's AD&D - there were a other categories of gods that have since been eliminated. Another system of ranking gods by power. In order they were:
Over-Gods Ao, for example
Greater God Corellon Larethian (elves), Boccob (Greyhawk god of Magic)
Intermediate God Sehanine Moonbow (elves), Ehlonna & Thardizun (Greyhawk gods of forests & eternal darkness)
Lesser God Fenmarel Mestarine (elves), Xerbo (Greyhawk god of the sea)
Demi-God Shevarash (elves), Iuz & Zagyg (Greyhawk gods of oppression & humor)
Quasi-deity (I'm unaware of any elven Q-D), Heward, Keoghtom, & Kyuss etc. (Greyhawk)
Hero-deity Lafarallin / Gadhelyn (elves), Kelanen "Prince of Swords" (Greyhawk)
Hero-deities were "very powerful individuals that might, or might not be a true deity."
I went with Greyhawk because Forgotten realms never really embraced the lower-levels. I also tried to stick to makes that everyone should have at least heard of from magic items or something.
Now, if we were using this system, Elminster and The Baneliches would fall into the Hero-deity category. Congrats Markustay - Gary would have agreed with you ;) - As I said, however, FR never really adopted that one which is why we still call them mortal.
Then you mix 3rd & 4th Edition rule madness into the mix with Elder Evils and Primordials the craziness with Archfiends and devils and all and all hell breaks loose, figuratively and literally (in the novels at least). In this system they would fall into the incredibly lame "Exarch" category. 1st - lets pretend that this isn't a real-life title from Greece, making it idiotic to apply to any god. 2nd - they basically said "screw it - anyone that isn't a MAJOR god goes into this incredibly stupid box here in the corner." Now - even if we don't hate this system - they totally ignored all previous power levels and I guess just put the gods they likes into "GREATER GOD" category, as some of them were intermediate or lesser gods before). Then there is pretty much no difference between "GODS" and "EXARCHS" as both are just lesser gods in the direct or indirect service of "GREATER GODS." Don't get me started with how stupid it was to first elevate Fzoul to a chosen, then kill off, then elevate to Exarch of two different gods - what motivated the pile of idiotic in that arc can't be conceived.
Anyhow - in this system they would fall into the "Chosen" category, the only thing separating them from Exarch, I guess, is worshipers. Though I cannot imagine any idiot worshiping Fzoul - who literally never did anything but betray his gods and then be used by them as a vessel for their power.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2018 : 19:47:29
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Well, we did (sort-of) get that 'hero-deity' level with Exarchs - one of the good things that came out of 4e (so all the arch-somethings, Chosen, demigods, Proxies, saints, etc, etc, have one umbrella category, so I don't have to type that mouthful every time I am referring to that 'tier' in the divine hierarchy).
I wish we had 36 levels like OD&D, rather than the 20 DvR levels we have, but they were trying to stick closer to the whole, "Demi, Lesser, Intermediate. & Greater" categories AD&D was using. With 36, I could fudge a LOT more. For example, I created a demi-Overpower category between Overgod and deity I call 'High Gods', which would be the Pantheonic leaders (since they do seem to have some jurisdiction over their fellow gods). This allows us to place odd being like the Celestial Emperor, Maztica, and Fate, who were all called 'Overpowers' at one point. The 'demi' tiers are like the 'farm team' for the next tier - you go there first, and if you make the cut, you can go up to 'the Majors' (next tier up). That extends the DvR system by five, so a bit closer to OD&D's 36.
I actually have 100-level system, and incorporated mortal levels (the D&D system) into my deiffic system. For a rough idea where the DvR's fit into it, just add 20 to any divine being's DvR and that gives you there 'cosmic level' (and as I said, the mortal D&D leveling remains the same - a level 20 character IS a DvR '0' deity - those 'hero-gods' you speak of). I posted the full list of levels around here awhile back (it includes Overpower tiers, and Supernal tiers above them - there is only one 'level 100' being... at least in this multiverse). A lot of that is stuff I adapted from OD&D and expanded on. My 'Gods' - the ones mortals know about on various worlds - are really all just immortals (ascended mortals), that have taken on the 'cloak' of an elder power (Overgod and above). In other words, the things I've been calling 'Ubertars' are immortals. No-one (mortal) actually interacts with a TRUE god. Except Elminster... but then again, he is a demipower himself. Your just dealing with 'proxies' of higher powers that mortals can't even fathom.
I've even incorporated Christianity (and other RW religions) into all of this - 'Savior figures' are actually these Immortals. They are the intermediaries between you and God(s).
EDIT:
And I've only recently become aware of another tier - there is one between mortals and primordials as well - Empyreans. Those are the classic (planer/mythological) 'Titans'. So Empyreans should have around the same power as deities (immortals), but in the hierarchy, they are a 'separate dept.' |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 06 Feb 2018 19:50:12 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2018 : 20:39:57
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The 36 levels were divided into 6 such subsets
Initiate (1-6), Temporal (7-12), Celestial (13-18), Empyrial (19-24), Eternal (25-30), Hierarch (31-36) |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2427 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2018 : 21:08:24
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
The 36 levels were divided into 6 such subsets
Initiate (1-6), Temporal (7-12), Celestial (13-18), Empyrial (19-24), Eternal (25-30), Hierarch (31-36)
Yes, but the bottom end of the scale was lower - "Immortals" started at Imps and LED Archons.  |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2018 : 22:05:51
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
The 36 levels were divided into 6 such subsets
Initiate (1-6), Temporal (7-12), Celestial (13-18), Empyrial (19-24), Eternal (25-30), Hierarch (31-36)
Yes, but the bottom end of the scale was lower - "Immortals" started at Imps and LED Archons.
Now THAT part is just weird. I have...
Immortal tier
Mortal
Exarch
Lesser Deity
Intermediate Deity
Greater Deity
'High God' (Empyreal?)
True gods (Ordials or 'Overpowers')
'Elder Gods' (Primordial/Estelar)
Eternals (their job is to solve conflicts among the rest of the hierarchy, even among the Supernals)
Supernals - the most basic concepts of the universe - the sentience of entire dimensions. I have six 'masculine' and six 'feminine' (so divine couplings as well)
And at the top you have 'The ONE', who in it's creation it pushed the chaos (Xaos) out of its burgeoning consciousness, and thus accidentally created The OTHER (The Nemesis, the 'Dark God', "His Name is Legion") - basically its the aberrational 'big bad' I call Cthon. Then The ONE splits into the divine masculine and divine feminine (who becomes GOD and the Goddess, Eternity & Infinity in Marvel Comics)., and they further split into 6 each of the Supernals. Those then create the Ordials; feminine-aspect Supernals tend create ideas (the Estelar), while masculine-aspected Supernals tend create substance - the Primordials. Although truthfully, their really is no such thing as sexual orientation among beings of this rank - thats a mortal concept. Its just an easier way of looking at things.
But everything above 'deity' (immortal) level really shouldn't effect anything in-game. that's just way beyond the scope of the rules; its all just a metal exercise.
Oh, and two of the Supernals - Ahriman & Ahura Mazda (Jazirion/Mithra) - were one such 'coupling', and when the the First World (the entirety of the universe at that time) was shattered, they worked together to create The Great Wheel, which is a vast apparatus-artifact designed to recollect all the 'soul stuff' that was lost when GOD (the sentience of the universe itself - think of it like 'the Force') was fragmented (because one Supernal died - The Ymir, the Material dimension). The scalyfolk know all of this as the fragmentation of the World Serpent ('the world' alluding to the lost First world, or Midgard).
You know, now that I am pairing these dudes off, it might be fun to make Ao a Supernal and just get rid of the Eternal tier altogether. Then I can pair him/it with Io - the 'Alpha & Omega'. Just realized - that won't work. A supernal would NEVER talk to a mortal, or interact with them in any way, not even a Chosen like Elminster. Might just be easier to say Io was the one who created Ao.
And just for fun - the four elemental lords (Celestial Dragons) in Chinese mythology names all start with 'Ao' (so if Io created them all, then it seems he names all his kids 'Ao', in which case that just makes him the cosmic version of George Foreman).
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Feb 2018 01:24:15 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2018 : 23:05:24
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Below those were mortals. All immortals go into those 6 groups.
All True Gods would be Hierarchs, except maybe Elder... like I said, there were undefined Old Ones... which were like the super gods that no one ever sees. Like Ao.
Io and the other dragon gods didn't exist then. Instead there was The Great One.. Giant 3 headed dragon, and three dragon gods that divided all dragons by the order category of alignment (law, neutral, chaos) - i assume the great one's head signified those three as well. Io to me would be the great one, and bahumut/tiamat the level of the others.
It was proposed that the only ways to achieve that level of power were to become level 36 immortal, then give up your immortality, ascend through the ranks of mortals again - re-achieve immortality and then level up to 36 again. None is ever known to have done so.
The other idea is to jump into a blackball and kill yourself and somehow manage to survive. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2018 : 01:11:38
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| -I like using terms (Greater, Intermediate, Lesser, etc.) to give a general idea of how powerful a deity is, but I dunno, I feel like "levels" and a well-defined hierarchy is getting too specific for divine powers. I mean, demigods and "hero deities" might kind of straddle the line between normal existence on the moral plane and "more", but they're still keepers of knowledge and power incomprehensible to mortals. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2018 : 01:51:21
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I always looked at it this way Steve - that's their level in the Prime Material, and more specifically, within a particular Crystal Sphere. What they 'are' in each sphere (and even in different parts of the same world!) is dependent on mortal beliefs (Dogma).
Years ago I did this very detailed table wherein in shows how a god's power increased or decreased (and a clerics, as well) dependent on their proximity to certain things. The most important being geographic location - if you are the Judaeo-Christian god and you're in the Vatican (at the center of the Holy Roman Empire), then your nigh-omnipotent... in regards to things within that sphere of influence. Also, the presence of temple/Holy sites, and the size/power of those can help, as well as the presence of relics. Thus, when on the Prime Material, and even within the boundaries of their own 'stomping grounds', their actual power level fluctuates. The 'levels' given in the Godbooks are just rough estimates (the usual, 'at rest' level when their are no influencing factors present).
In the Planes, it gets so much worse. Its a crap shoot. It not only depends on your own Base of Power (your Godly Domain) and how far it is, but also on the proximity of other members of your pantheon (so Ra would still have more power in Set's house than he would in Asmodeus'). Also, while you are strongest within your own domain, you are also the most vulnerable there (basically, you are literally standing in the God's 'Heart'). Its the only place a god can be killed and it wind-up 'permanent' (and even then, nothings really forever, but that's a different discussion).
So like I said, take 'em with a grain of salt. They're just estimates, and everything is constantly fluctuating up and down (another example would be a god of Spring, or even 'Dawn', in the Springtime, or a god of nature, even, would have more power then. On the other hand, their power would wane come autumn, and be at its lowest in winter... when other beings become more powerful. This is why its so important for deities to have as many portfolios as they can grab - because when the item of the portfolio isn't present for any reason, they become weakened. And because of this constant fluctuation, gods are always too scared (mostly) to move against each other without centuries of planning - because the slightest little thing could change the status-quo and they'd be screwed. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 08 Feb 2018 05:33:42 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2018 : 02:25:45
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| Yeah, the idea of "undead gods" always sounded weird to me too. I guess where I'd lean to it is that to me it speaks of power source. Essentially an "undead god" must be pulling from "negative energy" rather than faith energy. I would specify here that there also is a big difference between a god of undead and an "undead god". There's plenty of gods of undead who get their energy through faith.... Orcus was one before he came back as Tenebrous.... However, perhaps "undead gods" are actually pulling energy from the place where vestiges go instead of the negative material plane. Either way, it seems like these "undead gods" aren't dependent on faithful to survive any longer. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2018 : 02:47:26
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-Makes sense, cause on their home plane, they're like almost completely invincible, in a completely opposite plane, they're weakened, and so on. That's an interesting variable to add to the "divine formula" I remember making. I have no clue where it might of been written, but I remember it something like Divine Power = Portfolio(s) + Number of followers x (fervor of worshiper 1 + fervor of worshiper 2...). Guess it'd be like a "temporary modifier".
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(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2427 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2018 : 10:25:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
on their home plane, they're like almost completely invincible, in a completely opposite plane, they're weakened, and so on. That's an interesting variable to add to the "divine formula"
Which is how divine magic works in Planescape. Priests are the strongest in their gods' realms, at nominal performance on the same plane, the next door or on Prime, and weakened as they move farther. The greater power keys offset the latter, but gods don't give away even more common types without a good reason. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2018 : 05:37:18
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That works for me as well - it goes right back to what I said about 'proximity'.
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Makes sense, cause on their home plane, they're like almost completely invincible, in a completely opposite plane, they're weakened, and so on. That's an interesting variable to add to the "divine formula" I remember making. I have no clue where it might of been written, but I remember it something like Divine Power = Portfolio(s) + Number of followers x (fervor of worshiper 1 + fervor of worshiper 2...). Guess it'd be like a "temporary modifier".
The Algorithms must extend in eleven dimensions, and are thus, incomprehensible to the human mind.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2018 : 16:59:18
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I tried to work the immortals rules into 3.5 and encountered this planar bias.
Every miracle a divine being performs uses up some power. I made this divine power be experience points.
Experience points are accrued by worship and used up by these miracles (casting spells, making avatars, sending visions, etc).
If a divine being is on a plane of the same alignment then it costs the normal amount. For every step away from the alignment on either axis (law or good) then increase the multiplier by 1 which is applied to the cost.
So while a divine being may not be directly more vulnerable by being on another misaligned plane it is indirectly vulnerable by the fact that everything it does costs more power (a lot more).
At least that was how i played it. I used that planar bias to justify why Lolth changed into a true demon. Because she was still a fey (a cursed and transformed fey but still a fey) the abyss itself was working against her and trying to kill her so she underwent the tranformation during lolths silence to eliminate this planar bias.
This was also the system for the old D&D. These "Power Points" and were gained from advancing and "Temporary Power Points" which were like their rechargable battery or daily spell capacity. Both could be spent to do many things... which would then in turn slow down or reverse the advancing. These things included: Improving Ability Scores (they had wider range than mortals), casting "immortal level magic" - this had a wide array of possibilities that ran from improved versions of moral spells to creating entire universes and species. A basic rule of thumb was that temporary power points were used to make temporary changes to things while the permanent Power Points were spent to create avatars, artifacts, planes, or make any permanent changes to a being (like giving a Chosen power or a special ability).
As far as being on other planes, Immortals had different forms -
Manifestation form - the immortal body
Incorporeal form - basically the projection of the mind
Mortal identity - avatars
Immortals could only be killed on their home plane and unlike FR if an immortal was killed they were killed forever. Forms could be destroyed which would weaken the immortal but not kill them. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2018 : 17:13:14
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There were "undead" immortals though I'd say they did not exist as undead as immortals, but were undead before becoming immortal and then just kept the undead form.
Nyx was kind of a vampire
Orcus was Orcus - fiendish god of the dead, but not undead.
Thanatos - Death - complete skeleton with scythe form |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2018 : 21:56:37
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Yeah it was really good. By far the best "high level" adventuring system. It even had paths to immortality laid out.
I don't know if you know anything about Mystara, but the adventure from the Immortals box was the source of "the Radiance" which was the source of the magic on that world. I'm certain there have been other scrolls here that talked about that a bit. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2018 : 22:06:23
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
The more i hear about that immortals sourcebook the more I love it.
The great thing about Mystara and OD&D (and Gygax's 'vision') was that they were NEVER stupid enough to actually have an Overgod make an appearance. They alluded to the existence of such beings, but also made it clear that "not even the immortals know the truth of such matters".
But then novels became uber-popular, and they destroyed D&D and FR as a game-setting (because authors can do preposterous things over and over - they don't have to care about RW repercussions to any of their 'big explosions'). Game-setting novels should only be set in the past. Thats how WoW does it, and it works perfectly for them.
Obviously Disney came to the same conclusion - the 'shared world' paradigm is eventually self-defeating, because of rampant one-upmanship. Bad enough we had gods all over the place (literally!), but then we got Overgods having polite conversation with Elminster? As an avid reader and 'fanboi', I love that crap. As a GM trying to run RPGs, not so much. It devalues everything else, including people's PCs. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 08 Feb 2018 22:08:02 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2018 : 01:50:55
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I dont allow the immprtal body to leave the home plane but maybe its a personal choice because if you leave then you are more vulnerable to being killed. On your home plane you control the environment and legions of fanatically loyal guardians. Elsewhere it is just you alone.
Eternity Publishing made d20 Immortals Handbook: Ascension and d20 Immortals Handbook: Epic Bestiary, Volume 1 (not sure if they ever published Volume 2). And there was much interest in a 4E Immortals Handbook which apparently turned out to be vaporware. And don't forget the old D&D (circa-2E but not AD&D) "gold cover" Immortal Rules box which inspired it all.
But recall that Tyr appeared in the Realms, Tyr "himself" and no mere avatar, definitely foreign and far away from his home plane, and not alone at all but at the vanguard of a vast and epic army. He arrived with enough backup to install himself as a permanent fixture in the Realms. |
[/Ayrik] |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2018 : 02:22:31
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Yeah, the idea of "undead gods" always sounded weird to me too. I guess where I'd lean to it is that to me it speaks of power source. Essentially an "undead god" must be pulling from "negative energy" rather than faith energy. I would specify here that there also is a big difference between a god of undead and an "undead god". There's plenty of gods of undead who get their energy through faith.... Orcus was one before he came back as Tenebrous.... However, perhaps "undead gods" are actually pulling energy from the place where vestiges go instead of the negative material plane. Either way, it seems like these "undead gods" aren't dependent on faithful to survive any longer.
I think there's a bit of a disconnect here.
Gods of undeath aren't necessarily undead. Chemosh and Falazure certainly aren't, and Thasmudyan is a baatezu.
Gods who are undead are a bit murkier. Chances are that Mellifleur, Doresain, Velsharoon, Vecna, Kanchelsis and Evening Glory technically aren't even undead anymore; they are gods who were undead (or whatever the hell Evening Glory is) and while their divinities and former natures give them traits according to the type of undead they were, they're outsiders now. Vecna, Velsharoon and Mellifleur may not even have phylacteries; Kanchelsis probably keeps a coffin around only for thematic reasons. Maybe their divinities have altered their respective methods of undeath; I dunno.
Tenebrous is an undead god. He clawed his way out of the grave for revenge, and as a god to boot. He's a spark of divinity that fought its way away from the specter of Death. The dude is basically a dread wraith, just godly. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2018 : 02:26:39
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Old D&D had the following "Immortals" products:
1986 The Immortal Rules Box Set (Gold box mentioned by Ayrik)
1986 IM1 The Immortal Storm
1987 IM2 The Wrath Of Olympus
1987 IM3 Best Of Intentions
1992 The Wrath of the Immortals (the box set I've been referring to) - this elaborated on the older stuff which is why I refer to it.
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2427 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2018 : 10:57:00
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
but the adventure from the Immortals box was the source of "the Radiance" which was the source of the magic on that world.
Wasn't it more of the opposite?
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
But then novels became uber-popular, and they destroyed D&D and FR as a game-setting (because authors can do preposterous things over and over - they don't have to care about RW repercussions to any of their 'big explosions').
But the authors are told about what to write by the corporate bureaucrats, who themselves can't write (neither sourcebooks nor novels), but "know better". And what we know of those in general does not exactly inspire high expectations. 
quote:
Game-setting novels should only be set in the past. Thats how WoW does it, and it works perfectly for them.
Warhammer fans might disagree with this.  |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2018 : 12:58:35
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Yeah, the idea of "undead gods" always sounded weird to me too. I guess where I'd lean to it is that to me it speaks of power source. Essentially an "undead god" must be pulling from "negative energy" rather than faith energy. I would specify here that there also is a big difference between a god of undead and an "undead god". There's plenty of gods of undead who get their energy through faith.... Orcus was one before he came back as Tenebrous.... However, perhaps "undead gods" are actually pulling energy from the place where vestiges go instead of the negative material plane. Either way, it seems like these "undead gods" aren't dependent on faithful to survive any longer.
I think there's a bit of a disconnect here.
Gods of undeath aren't necessarily undead. Chemosh and Falazure certainly aren't, and Thasmudyan is a baatezu.
Gods who are undead are a bit murkier. Chances are that Mellifleur, Doresain, Velsharoon, Vecna, Kanchelsis and Evening Glory technically aren't even undead anymore; they are gods who were undead (or whatever the hell Evening Glory is) and while their divinities and former natures give them traits according to the type of undead they were, they're outsiders now. Vecna, Velsharoon and Mellifleur may not even have phylacteries; Kanchelsis probably keeps a coffin around only for thematic reasons. Maybe their divinities have altered their respective methods of undeath; I dunno.
Tenebrous is an undead god. He clawed his way out of the grave for revenge, and as a god to boot. He's a spark of divinity that fought its way away from the specter of Death. The dude is basically a dread wraith, just godly.
Not disagreeing, just pointing out some things. Mellifleur is noted as having numerous phylacteries (he's the first time I recall ever hearing of someone having such, then Harry Potter effectively did it and Aumvor the Undying, etc..). Both Mellifleur and Velsharoon's apotheosis into a god involved a variation on the ritual of becoming a lich, so they were living mortals and went through a transformation that turned them into gods rather than the undead being that they were meant to become.
However, like you say, although they are gods of the undead, and they appear to "look" like liches according to their priests.... they are not "undead gods". Tenebrous is one of the only entities (though I could swear I've heard of another) who were known of as "undead gods". Also, one thing to note with the "undead gods"... Orcus had a "stone god body" in the astral still the whole while that Tenebrous was active. Normally, one would assume that when a god becomes active again, their stone body would "melt away". So, like we were talking about gods being some kind of "multi-dimensional" entities, these "undead gods" are somehow disconnected from this dimension... which even moreso makes having them empowered as beings drawing from the place where vestiges go.... its probably a dimension that gods normally don't touch unless they "die", and like a ghost exists without its corporeal body... an "undead god" can't touch its "stone god body" and must find some other way to awaken it. The idea comparing it to a wraith very much fits.
I would also stress here that there should also be a difference between an "undead god" and god who has had their flesh reanimated (as Gilgeam's was) via necromancy. Its an interesting discussion to have though. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 09 Feb 2018 13:01:45 |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2018 : 14:57:21
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Velsharoon actually did become a lich right before becoming a god. That remindsme, I have to go work on pre-ascension Velsharoon's stats and the Skull Staff is hilariously OP.
Anyway, Mellifleur's phylacteries may in part derive specifically from being the god of liches. Velsharoon probably has the same deal working for him. Gilgaem's reanimated body is actually an epic level undead called a hunefer. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2018 : 19:44:49
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
but the adventure from the Immortals box was the source of "the Radiance" which was the source of the magic on that world.
Wasn't it more of the opposite?
Nope.
Deep beneath the city of Glantri is an artifact Called the Nucleus of the Spheres.
In reality is the engine core of a ship from Blackmoor. Basically a super-powerful magical-nuclear reactor. If it exploded the world would explode. The engineer made it implode instead and this turned him into an immortal (basically).
Since then, it has been spewing radiation into the world, altering the old magic into something uniquely Mystara. This is "The Radiance" - refer to the various Glantri sources for more details about that. In general it is like pure magic. I've likened it to pools of radiance in FR.
An "Old One" realized that this radiance could allow people to become immortal without a sponsor - which was a new thing so the Old One did that as an experiment.
Despite the immortals who tried to stop it this eventually happened and the immortal "Rad" was 'born'.
Now... what you're probably thinking of is that by using certain spells of the radiance, Rad and wizards were draining the magic from the world and the more they did that the less magic there was all over. Kind of like magic is a keg and they found a tap :P And then the immortals had their little fight :) And then destroy Alphatia. RSE are not just for the realms it seems :P |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2018 : 00:07:54
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Actually, rather than say that godhood conflicts with the whole 'lich' thing (because IT DOES - A god is its own thing, not a template you slap on something else, just as being a lich, except being a god supercedes being a lich*), we can use those instances of phylactories and even multiple phylactoies to our advantage.
Gods have avatars, and the rule is 'one per DvR point'. Now, since those Avatars are really shards of the god, then one might surmise for each phylactoy a 'lich god' maintains, he loses the ability to cat one avatar - they're literally 'stuck in a bottle' (like a genie). Mummies and their Canopic Jars would work precisely the same way. So here's the deal - becoming a lich might be the easiest way to 'transcend' mortality, but the drawback is, if you ascend to something higher later, you're still stuck with all the lich-baggage, which means a part of your power will always reside in the phylactories. Those become 'holy relics' of your church, and they count as avatars. In the case of demigods, guess what? You're really not much more than just a powerful lich anyway. You get one avatar until you become a higher level 'god', and the essence of your being is stuck in the Phylactory - thats the equivalent of your 'Divine Realm' (a really tiny one, but if it really does work like genies in a bottle, it might be rather nice in there LOL). So your a god, and technically you can look any way you want (by expanding s ome power), but since you didn't give a crap how you looked as a mortal, there is a 99.9% you aren't going to care when you become a god. Thus, 'lich' is just how you look - you're not a lich anymore (or a vampire, or whatever).
*Now, liches themselves - this whole line of reasoning made me think about what a lich - a transcendence of mortality. A lich is actually a type of demipower forced on the universe. But because you aren't a real god, you need 'soulstuff' in lieu of worship to survive. I've been looking for the lore about them getting that from hags, but can't find it (anyone?) Basically, as an artificial god, you need to maintain yourself with some type of energies. However, juts a s mortal can ascend and become an exarch (demi-power), and then eventually (hopefully) move on up to being a full god, a lich has much the same process. Eventually, through sheer force of will and its own vast intelligence, the lich becomes a demilich, which is like unto a god. It is no longer constrained by physicality - it can do whatever it wants. In the hierarchy of the planes, a demilich would therefor be of the same tier as a god (Immortal), but not have any of a god's abilities - it is a 'false god'.
Liches can bypass that process - and some have - by gaining followers and creating their own cult(s), much as any demigod would do. If they managed to get enough of a following, they may 'ascend' just as a mortal does and become an actual deity, rather than a psuedo-god. Thus, their 'lichdom' serves as their 'demi-power' status. if they are unsuccessful, they will still eventually become a demilich and be completely free from the Prime material anyway. Once a lich becomes a god, it is no longer really a lich. It may still prefer to have the appearance of one, but it can also appear any way it likes, if it so wishes. It is still restrained by the number of Avatars it can make by the number of its phylactories (which in normal cases is only one). It cannot get around this by any normal means - the process of becoming a lich and bypassing the normal path of ascendancy precludes this. You 'took a shortcut', and now you have to pay for that. Your priesthood is also barred from healing magics - your power derives from the negative aspects of the unerse, not the positive. Positive energy (Radiance/SilverFire) is anathema to you and your minions.
Chosen - if you become a proxy of a god in life, and then become a lich, you can no longer be a proxy to that god. The tiny bit of that god placed within you is transferred back to the god in question. However, as with all things in the universe, if the god is also an evil god you may still choose to serve it, but only as any underling-god, not as its Chosen. A portion of that god's power CANNOT be placed within you unless it is also empowered by negative energy. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Baneliches
