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Tigon
Acolyte
USA
47 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Feb 2018 : 13:18:05
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Ok so, as ive stated in other posts, ive been absent from the realms (and fantasy fiction/gaming in general, except video games) for the better part of 2 decades and I know I have a lot to catch up on, and I'm working to do so.
That said, I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the Spellplauge // Sundering events, specifically how the world (geography/maps) were impacted. I understand massive changes came to the world in the cataclysmic event that was the Spellplauge (ive read an overview but am still catching up regarding details of the event) and then more recently Lord AO has recreated the Tablets of Fate, separated Abeir & Toril again, and... I guess mended the land?
So what does this mean for maps Id like to use in my campaign? Are any of the map sets from previous editions relevant again? I have the 4 poster-sized maps that form one GIANT map set, from the OG AD&D Forgotten Realms Grey Box 1st edition... is this at all accurate in 5e? If it is, are there any changes I should be aware of?
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2018 : 15:36:17
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If you are planning to use your old maps I think that is the best idea for you.
If you will be playing 5e then all you need to do is decide what year you are starting to play in. If you want to start play in the year given for the Old Grey Box, then nothing is changed as far as the world goes obviously.
If you want to play in later ages, then you will of course need to "brush up" more perhaps.
One of the best "go to" resources I can suggest is Candlekeep's Markustay. While he plays around with the maps and creates all sorts of things, he is also good at knowing "what happened when" because he really goes in depth researching when things happened. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Mankyle
Acolyte
Spain
42 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2018 : 15:53:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Tigon
Ok so, as ive stated in other posts, ive been absent from the realms (and fantasy fiction/gaming in general, except video games) for the better part of 2 decades and I know I have a lot to catch up on, and I'm working to do so.
That said, I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the Spellplauge // Sundering events, specifically how the world (geography/maps) were impacted. I understand massive changes came to the world in the cataclysmic event that was the Spellplauge (ive read an overview but am still catching up regarding details of the event) and then more recently Lord AO has recreated the Tablets of Fate, separated Abeir & Toril again, and... I guess mended the land?
So what does this mean for maps Id like to use in my campaign? Are any of the map sets from previous editions relevant again? I have the 4 poster-sized maps that form one GIANT map set, from the OG AD&D Forgotten Realms Grey Box 1st edition... is this at all accurate in 5e? If it is, are there any changes I should be aware of?
In the sword coast things are more or less as they used to be in 2e or 3e.
You can check the 5e sword coast map here
http://media.wizards.com/2015/images/dnd/resources/Sword-Coast-Map_HighRes.jpg
For general Information about the sword Coast buy the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide
For information about the North, buy Storm King's Thunder. Chapter 3 has a lot of information about the current situation of the Savage frontier. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2018 : 16:54:49
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1e & 2e maps should be fine, 3e maps are out (you can use them, but they are 'warped' and missing stuff). 4e map is definitely out (it should have never been in LOL). For 5th edition you could use Mike Schley's lubberly Map of the Western heartlands (link in post above) or his map of Chult. There are no official maps for other areas, but I have done THIS MAP as a rough idea of what happened. Its extremely close to the 1e/2e maps, with only some differences in the south and east, and it follows Mike Schley's two maps perfectly (except I left the remnants of two crevasses from 4e because crevasses are cool).
But your old 1e/2e maps should do just fine. They're close-enough, and almost exact in the Heartlands. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 02 Feb 2018 16:56:27 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2018 : 00:11:17
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| Also check out the 5th edition sourcebooks, like Sword Coast Adventure's Guide, which is the 5e equivalent of the FR campaign setting. It has basic maps (and provides abbreviated info about the Spellplague and Sundering). |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 03 Feb 2018 00:12:12 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
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Tigon
Acolyte
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2018 : 10:22:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
1e & 2e maps should be fine, 3e maps are out (you can use them, but they are 'warped' and missing stuff). 4e map is definitely out (it should have never been in LOL). For 5th edition you could use Mike Schley's lubberly Map of the Western heartlands (link in post above) or his map of Chult. There are no official maps for other areas, but I have done THIS MAP as a rough idea of what happened. Its extremely close to the 1e/2e maps, with only some differences in the south and east, and it follows Mike Schley's two maps perfectly (except I left the remnants of two crevasses from 4e because crevasses are cool).
But your old 1e/2e maps should do just fine. They're close-enough, and almost exact in the Heartlands.
Yours helps big time. I'm specifically looking for the region around the Sharr, Landrise and the ruins of Peleveran.
Any more suggestions are greatly appreciated.
PS Markus... your work is absolutely breathtaking. Thank you for all of the effort you've clearly put in over the years. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2018 : 16:15:07
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Besides the fact that they filled up the Underchasm so the Shaar exist again as whole, there is no canon info (nor maps) for those areas in 5e. So, I guess you're free to do whatever you want there.
I can help with info on the Shaar Desolation (4e version of the area) for historical purposes if you're planning to play a campaign in the post-Sundering Realms, if you like. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2018 : 19:12:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Tigon
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
1e & 2e maps should be fine, 3e maps are out (you can use them, but they are 'warped' and missing stuff). 4e map is definitely out (it should have never been in LOL). For 5th edition you could use Mike Schley's lubberly Map of the Western heartlands (link in post above) or his map of Chult. There are no official maps for other areas, but I have done THIS MAP as a rough idea of what happened. Its extremely close to the 1e/2e maps, with only some differences in the south and east, and it follows Mike Schley's two maps perfectly (except I left the remnants of two crevasses from 4e because crevasses are cool).
But your old 1e/2e maps should do just fine. They're close-enough, and almost exact in the Heartlands.
Yours helps big time. I'm specifically looking for the region around the Sharr, Landrise and the ruins of Peleveran.
Any more suggestions are greatly appreciated.
PS Markus... your work is absolutely breathtaking. Thank you for all of the effort you've clearly put in over the years.
First, thank you for the compliment. Its literally what I live for (not so much the compliment itself, but rather, that people are finding all my hard work helpful to their games).
Second, you'll fine that the areas that Mike Schley has already mapped I have left intact (mostly because he religiously followed the 1e/2e maps, wtih a few VERY minor tweaks... and those were worthwhile editions). Despite NOT being on Mike's maps, I left narrow remnants of both the Deep Maw (Anauroch) and the Land's Mouth because they were 'kewl', AND I felt they were ADDITIVE, rather than subtractive to the setting as a whole.
Moving further east - since Mr.Schley hasn't graced us with an Eatern realms map (yet) - I went a slightly different route, and used the 3e maps for the Unapproachale East, because they added a LOT more to the setting (had more details for that region than any prior maps). I did have to fiddle, rotate, and even resize a bit, but I got the 3e layouts to work within the greater 1e/2e landmass outline (so we won't loose all those cool rivers, lakes, and swamps we gained in 3e). Also, you will still be able to use the 3e Unapproachable East book in 5e, for the most part. Keeping old references viable is paramount to what I do.
Next, the old Empires and Shining South are a lot of guesswork. I had to take "its just like it was before", and merge that official stance with stuff in the novels, which say a good chunk of the Abeirran stuff is still around, like Tymanther and Akanul (in other words, WotC is contradicting itself, and they should feel free to use my 'compromise' any way they want). I purposely drew both that map and the earlier one to allow DMs (and WotC, if they feel so inclined) to save ANYTHING (settlments and ruins) they want, by strategically stretching new coastlines and placing small islands wherever this stuff fell-out in the past (so you, as a DM, can spin it either way).
Halruaa, the Chultan arm, and nearly all of the souther coast of Faerūn, I took a lot more 'artistic license', as I also did in the Taan (Hordelands) region. As for the southern coast - I had to just make it up going by available lore (which is scarce for those areas). I compromised on the whole, "is Chult still an island?" thing by putting a 'river' there, that's really a very narrow channel (picture the Mississippi River - still WIDE by river standards, but narrow by oceanic standards). That means small boats can cross it, while larger ships can traverse it, and locals would not consider them separate landmasses (even though technically, they are). And I am no expert on Oceonics, but given the channel is N-S rather then E-W, I would say you'd have little to none of the riptides you get with the ones running with the planetary spin (you'd still have tides, like everywhere else, but you wouldn't have the oddity of what would appear to be a 'river' running in one direction, and then later, the other... although that would be fun, wouldn't it?) Halruaa was pure guesswork. You have a mixture of 'survivors' coupled with 'returnees', hence why I call it a republic now (its individual states). I was going for 'interesting', more than anything else. I also did what I did in the Old Empires - kept bits of land where we needed them in case a DM (or WotC - any employees reading this feel free to steal my interpretation) wanted to 'save' anything from before the Spellplague.
Lastly, The Tann and Lower Mulhorand/Golden Waters regions. I picture two major canals, and THAT is 100% Homebrew. I lie how they connected the major bodies of water in 4e (one of the few things I liked), and I hate to lose that, and even with 'godly intervention', I'm just not seeing it go away for good (because once humans get something in their head, they won't give up on it). Hence, I propose that Shou-Lung* building two canals. the first is completely owned and operated by them, and connects Semphar to their own river system (at one point it is an aqueduct - which they've done RW - and its a canal OVER a river. K-T is lower that The Endless Wastes and their canal coming off the river would have gone through those mountains, so a part of it had to be elevated). The other canal connects the river that comes out of Azulduth to the river that goes into the Golden Waters (which got pretty obliterated in 4e). Shou has a deal with Mulhorand to build and then manage the canal (for one century, which is almost up), keeping whatever fees they charge, and then hand the canal over to Mulhorand (and the fun part is that Shou may not want to do that now). Var is just a wetlands now, Estagund had some problems but its fairly intact, and Durpar had to completely move to the eastern half of the sea because there was no western half anymore in 4e (they are trying reestablish a presence in their old lands, but there are way too many monsters - ADVENTURE!)
You can see what I did with Luiren; it's still mostly gone. However, by keeping some of the water from 4e, I've managed to create for them a new homeland - ALL of that is Homebrew as well (that WotC is welcome to if they want it). I really think that some aspects of the 4e apocalypse SHOULD remain, despite being so hateful. I feel that by keeping nearly all of that in these 'outlying' regions is another good compromise (so its like 'it happened', but it really doesn't affect the Heartlands, which is where most of our love for FR is firmly grounded).
*I picture Shou-Lung now being ruled by tan Chin. He would have possessed one of the two candidates for the throne (I have a LOT more lore to go with this, that may appear somewhere someday), and eventually, would have announced that he was 'Tan-Chin reborn' (which is kinda the truth, actually). There as some 'iffy' core lore having to do with him and Ra-Khati, and I tried to work all that into the maps as well (Hantumah is from 4e's Open Grave). Basically, that region is very much like how Thay was in 4e - a land of undead (which the Shou's major canal efforts runn right through - WHAT FUN!)
While someone may think thats redundant, it A) helps me use the 4e core lore, and B) I have a feeling Thay sn't going to be looking like that much longer (so you'll still be able to get this 'Walking dead' vibe somewhere). In fact (Hello, WotC... are you listening?) it would make a GREAT place for some of the more powerful of Thay's undead to flee to if the place gets 'cleaned up'. BTW, I am also picturing Semphar being more like Ed Greenwood's version of Thay - more 'mystical and Oriental' seeming. I don't know how that works with all the 'Dragon Kings' nonsense, but the Shou love their dragons, so there is that. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Feb 2018 19:26:41 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2018 : 19:41:08
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The Mulung Canal (the one going from Azulduth to The Dread Shaar Sea) actually crosses the Lake of Salt and connects to a 4e waterway that would have been lost once everything dried up. The other end of that route is the Lionstongue River - it has been slightly rerouted and extended (happened during 4e) - which passes between Veldorn and The Beastlands, which I have separated. Veldorn is very much like old Veldorn - its primarily 'well behaved' monsters who mostly just want to be left alone (not all of them, though). Whereas The Beastlands is just a wild place where only the strong survive. Think of it as a 'Law vs Chaos' thing (regionally, NOT individually). The fact that much shipping now has to pass through the area leaves one with a 'wild and wooly ride'. Zakhara has a large interest in keeping the passage open, and has taken to patrolling the Golden Waters, Dread Shaar Sea, and connecting riverways. Considering the Shou-Lung and Mulhorand presence at the canal, and the fledging Halfling realm (Hillshire) on that sea, it makes for a VERY interesting adventuring region, wouldn't you say? Far more flavors than even The Heartlands could handle (and yes, there are even glaciers nearby, in the Yehimals). If this were a VG, I'd say this was a high-level area.
Zakhara's increased presence in the Gulf of Zakhara has led them to establish a few outposts in the Utter East, much to the chagrin of the inhabitants (especially the people of Konigheim, who engaged in quite a bit of piracy). They have a major settlement (large town) on the larger of the two islands comprising Far Nemoree, and a small outpost (just a base and some support facilities, and docks, of course) on The White Rocks.
Whereas piracy out of Konigheim has received a major setback (the Zakharans seem to relish sinking foreign ships), the corsairs of the Corsair Domains have been having a field day with all the increased trade. Not that the Imperial Zakharan navy doesn't engage with them time to time, but the two seem to be able to avoid each other, for whatever reason (*cough* bribery *cough*).
Calimshan has also increased its own interests in this region, because of the Lapal Passage (far easier access to the southern waters then in 1e/2e/3e). It has built its own outpost on The Red Giant, just south of 'the east wall' of Halruaa - something they would have never dared when Halruaa was at full power. There are several Sea Gates in the Great Sea that allow travel to distant places, and many powers have an interest in seizing cntrol of them.
Annnnnnnnd... that enough homebrew speculation for now. I need to save something for sourcebooks.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Feb 2018 20:18:36 |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2018 : 00:13:56
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hey markustay, any reason why you used waterdeep's ancient name of deepwater?
oh and email or not tthat would have still been something Elminster would have said.... |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2018 : 00:56:09
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I covered that in the map thread. At least, I think I did (What? People don't read each and every word of my humongous posts? LOL)
Thats the name of the 'realm'. My assumption here is that at some point in time right around the end of 3e, Waterdeep need an actual name for the lands that fell under its purview. Back when Eric Boyd and I were working on the Daggerford project (Under Illefarn Anew), I did tons of research and found that Waterdeep soldiers patrol a VAST SWATH of territory around their lands. All the way down to Daggerford (the troops even rest in Daggerford before swinging back the other way, but I think we made some tweaks to that, and now Daggerford has its own contingent, and the two groups 'meet' at Waypost Water), all the way on up to Thornhold*, around the Dagger Mountains (via Dead Man's Pass), stopping at Kheldell (sometimes) and then Red Larch, back down the Long Road (hence the nickname of this route) through Amphail and finally Rassalantar before heading home to Waterdeep. So all of that, plus Goldenfields (which maintains its own divine military order) AND a great big swath of land going south to Daggerford (including Ardeep) is ALL PART OF WATERDEEP. Thus, I assume a name will be needed for The realm itself, and I repurposed the old name for the city for that. Deepwater is the Realm, and and Waterdeep is the capitol, just like The Silver Marches is The Realm, and silvermoon is the 'capitol'. I know FR isn't big on real borders, but with all these 'factions' vying for control over everything, I think a lot of city-states will have had to start marking their 'claims', rather than just keep it understood, as it had been in the past, before someone else (another power-group) tried to settle within 'your' borders.
So I guess it all comes down to me adding a little homebrew lore in, because someone has to apply RW logic and history to this damn setting (in a geographic capacity, I mean).
*There are two other holds along that path, equally spaced between Thornhold and Waterdeep: Grimsea (Seahold) which sits on the cliffs and is considered a bit of a 'punishment' to be stationed there with any permanency (troops are constantly rotated between holds - this is called "The Long Road Home", and takes about a year to complete). Grimsea is a miserable, cold & damp place, and the winters there are brutal. the next hold is Swordhold, which instead is in the foothills of the moutnains. There is an adventure involving this hold in The Green regent AP. Its your typical hill-fort type hold, and although the place itself is less forbidding then Grimsea (as its called by the unlucky soldiers stationed there), it has to deal with orcs and other menaces on a much more regular basis (which is why these forts are here - to help maintain the High Road free of threats).
North of the 'unaligned' (answering directly to neither city) Iniarv's Tower are two other fortresses, that are manned by Neverwinter troops. Crossroads keep is canon from the VG's, and sits north of swamp. Further north, halfway between that keep and Neverwinter itself lies the approriate but unoriginally named Midway Keep. Both Neverwinter Keeps have a unique circular design, making them look much more like very squat towers than forts, and the road passes directly through them. Unlike the Waterdeep Fortresses, the Nerverwinter ones have small settlements included in them (there is an outer curtain wall, and there is an Inn, shops, and services available). This is because the Nverwinter ones were designed to also double as 'waystops', unlike the Waterdeep ones. Those four, plus (the sometimes active) Iniarv's Tower (some knightly order is there - I forget which) and Thornhold (another knightlty order there - there is an entire novel about it) are fairly evenly spaced along the road between neverwinter and Waterdeep, and keep it clear of brigands and monsters... for the most part.
EDIT:
The group that used to run Thornhold were the knights of Samular (Tyr), but the keep was gifted to dwarves in the novel so now its a dwarf-fortified stronghold and Waystop. The group that was running Iniarv's Tower were Helmites. However, they were all captured (in an adventure) so the current situation there is unknown (I'd give it back to the Helmites - that way people could just update the Mere of Dead Men AP for 5e, plus the Helmites at Helm's Hold had to flee to somewhere when those pesky Netherese came to call.
When you can just look at areas of the map and 'see' the history unfold there, you know you've been at this way too long.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Feb 2018 01:06:07 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2018 : 04:38:53
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nope.
only maps for 5e are in parts.
the sword coast in the scag
the map of chult in the thing with acerak
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why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2018 : 05:24:48
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| The map from the SCAG does cover a good chunk, though -- the Sword Coast (including the Moonshaes) to Cormanthor and a chunk of the Moonsea. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
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Modern (5e/post sundering era) Map question
