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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Jan 2018 : 20:04:29
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Does it say anywhere how often this thing comes around?
And I realize its no longer connected to the Dracorage Mythal (does the mythal still work, or is that over and done with?)
But mostly I am just looking for the intervals right now, not lengthy discussions on its nature (I am just going to go ahead and act like nothing about the 'Draco-laser' is canon, because it just doesn't fit anything else).
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2018 : 20:20:04
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| The mythal was damaged - and I believe its focus was destroyed, and we are left to believe its gone forever. However, we've seen elsewhere that using high magic, damaged mythals can be repaired and altered. I'd imagine this would mean its not coming back any time soon unless someone repairs the mythal and that in 1000 years or so when dragons start to rule the world, the elves will put it back together :P |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2018 : 20:22:35
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There is a cicle, but we don't have much info about it. Dragons of Faerun says that every 300 years or so, but is not fixed, there have been intervals that range from 100 to 700 years.
As for the Mythal itself, it was destroyed in 1373 (in the events of the novel series "Rage of Dragons"). So, in the current Realms, the mythal is no more, and there will be no more rages. This is also a plot point in the Tiamat 5e adventures. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 28 Jan 2018 20:23:13 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2018 : 21:58:14
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| Zeromaru X has the right of it. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2018 : 02:39:44
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| See if the dragons had just set their dragon laser on stun instead of kill first, they would have practiced shooting with less power... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2018 : 03:56:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
There is a cicle, but we don't have much info about it. Dragons of Faerun says that every 300 years or so, but is not fixed, there have been intervals that range from 100 to 700 years.
As for the Mythal itself, it was destroyed in 1373 (in the events of the novel series "Rage of Dragons"). So, in the current Realms, the mythal is no more, and there will be no more rages. This is also a plot point in the Tiamat 5e adventures.
They "destroyed" the mythal by destroying its focus. To me it seems that this would only damage the mythal and not eliminate it, mythals being layer upon layer of woven magics that hold each other together. Perhaps after his time fixing up Myth Drannor Araevin will swing on up there and patch it up as well. A Mythal is a terrible thing to waste, after all. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2018 : 05:21:15
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
There is a cicle, but we don't have much info about it. Dragons of Faerun says that every 300 years or so, but is not fixed, there have been intervals that range from 100 to 700 years.
As for the Mythal itself, it was destroyed in 1373 (in the events of the novel series "Rage of Dragons"). So, in the current Realms, the mythal is no more, and there will be no more rages. This is also a plot point in the Tiamat 5e adventures.
They "destroyed" the mythal by destroying its focus. To me it seems that this would only damage the mythal and not eliminate it, mythals being layer upon layer of woven magics that hold each other together. Perhaps after his time fixing up Myth Drannor Araevin will swing on up there and patch it up as well. A Mythal is a terrible thing to waste, after all.
That was one of the things I really disliked in 3E... Prior info on mythals didn't say a thing about there being some keystone at the heart of the mythal. 3E made it both a thing and a plotpoint.
I personally think it diminishes mythals to have them tied to a rock that any random yahoo can manipulate. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2018 : 05:18:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
But mostly I am just looking for the intervals right now, not lengthy discussions on its nature (I am just going to go ahead and act like nothing about the 'Draco-laser' is canon, because it just doesn't fit anything else).
It fits perfectly with Selunites' paranoia toward Toril. 
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
They "destroyed" the mythal by destroying its focus. To me it seems that this would only damage the mythal and not eliminate it, mythals being layer upon layer of woven magics that hold each other together.
Sure, but:
1. Mythals are unique.
2. If it cannot be activated, practically it's as good as "destroyed" even if it's not fully gone. Kind of like a filled/drilled cannon - most of the original metal is still here, but it cannot be used for the original purpose.
3. It was already heavily damaged. Between all damage to the Weave during its existence - including (but not limited to) chipping Evermeet off the continent, Karsus' Folly and ToT - then damaged and/or corrupted by Sammaster's tampering.
It's possible that excessive strain from working longer and harder than its normal cycle made was not healthy for it either.
Oh, and several dragons from other planes were summoned right on top of a mythal with primary function to affect the dragons active at the time, by an entity who was linked to it and contributed to its corruptions, no less - and subsequently their blood was spilled there. It's not like this could result in anything untoward at better times, never mind right before the mythal was broken for good? 
4. A heavily damaged and/or corrupted mythal will continue to unravel. Like a cut sweater, only with large areas of wild magic and all the other fun we know from Myth Drannor and Myth Glaurach. Except it was more powerful and solidly built (affecting the whole planet and surviving all this time), so its decay probably would be slower, but may reach anywhere in the world (and maybe occasionally "entertain" the rest of Realmspace). |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
Edited by - TBeholder on 01 Feb 2018 05:43:34 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2018 : 09:33:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
There is a cicle, but we don't have much info about it. Dragons of Faerun says that every 300 years or so, but is not fixed, there have been intervals that range from 100 to 700 years.
As for the Mythal itself, it was destroyed in 1373 (in the events of the novel series "Rage of Dragons"). So, in the current Realms, the mythal is no more, and there will be no more rages. This is also a plot point in the Tiamat 5e adventures.
They "destroyed" the mythal by destroying its focus. To me it seems that this would only damage the mythal and not eliminate it, mythals being layer upon layer of woven magics that hold each other together. Perhaps after his time fixing up Myth Drannor Araevin will swing on up there and patch it up as well. A Mythal is a terrible thing to waste, after all.
That was one of the things I really disliked in 3E... Prior info on mythals didn't say a thing about there being some keystone at the heart of the mythal. 3E made it both a thing and a plotpoint.
I personally think it diminishes mythals to have them tied to a rock that any random yahoo can manipulate.
In the return of the archwizards series, it was a statue. I forget of who, but I'm 99% sure it was female, and likely an elf (Seldarine). It was in the middle of Evereska, and they 'rebuilt' the mythal using both regular weave and shadoweave magic (whatever the heck that was supposed to mean).
Honestly though, even if it was never in any of the prior canon, magic usually does have a 'thing' it focuses on. Even if its just a place the elves are standing around. In order to create a field-affect of any kind, you have to have a center point. I just always assumed there was usually something there they were focusing on.
Of course, I think it should take more than a few hours (with ZERO preparation) and a handful of wizards to raise a mythal, but what do I know? Its 5e now - they probably have 'insta-Mythal' in little packets. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2018 : 16:15:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
There is a cicle, but we don't have much info about it. Dragons of Faerun says that every 300 years or so, but is not fixed, there have been intervals that range from 100 to 700 years.
As for the Mythal itself, it was destroyed in 1373 (in the events of the novel series "Rage of Dragons"). So, in the current Realms, the mythal is no more, and there will be no more rages. This is also a plot point in the Tiamat 5e adventures.
They "destroyed" the mythal by destroying its focus. To me it seems that this would only damage the mythal and not eliminate it, mythals being layer upon layer of woven magics that hold each other together. Perhaps after his time fixing up Myth Drannor Araevin will swing on up there and patch it up as well. A Mythal is a terrible thing to waste, after all.
That was one of the things I really disliked in 3E... Prior info on mythals didn't say a thing about there being some keystone at the heart of the mythal. 3E made it both a thing and a plotpoint.
I personally think it diminishes mythals to have them tied to a rock that any random yahoo can manipulate.
In the return of the archwizards series, it was a statue. I forget of who, but I'm 99% sure it was female, and likely an elf (Seldarine). It was in the middle of Evereska, and they 'rebuilt' the mythal using both regular weave and shadoweave magic (whatever the heck that was supposed to mean).
Honestly though, even if it was never in any of the prior canon, magic usually does have a 'thing' it focuses on. Even if its just a place the elves are standing around. In order to create a field-affect of any kind, you have to have a center point. I just always assumed there was usually something there they were focusing on.
A lot of magic barriers and wards and such exist without any kind of keystone. And we not only had a lot of info about Myth Drannor's mythal, we have a lot of info about the creation of mythals. None of that referred to a keystone.
If we didn't have any prior mythal info, I'd buy in on the keystone idea a lot more readily. But given that it was something utterly new, not seen previously in print despite multiple opportunities, I have an issue with it. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2018 : 16:43:55
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
They "destroyed" the mythal by destroying its focus. To me it seems that this would only damage the mythal and not eliminate it, mythals being layer upon layer of woven magics that hold each other together.
Sure, but:
1. Mythals are unique.
2. If it cannot be activated, practically it's as good as "destroyed" even if it's not fully gone. Kind of like a filled/drilled cannon - most of the original metal is still here, but it cannot be used for the original purpose.
3. It was already heavily damaged. Between all damage to the Weave during its existence - including (but not limited to) chipping Evermeet off the continent, Karsus' Folly and ToT - then damaged and/or corrupted by Sammaster's tampering.
It's possible that excessive strain from working longer and harder than its normal cycle made was not healthy for it either.
Oh, and several dragons from other planes were summoned right on top of a mythal with primary function to affect the dragons active at the time, by an entity who was linked to it and contributed to its corruptions, no less - and subsequently their blood was spilled there. It's not like this could result in anything untoward at better times, never mind right before the mythal was broken for good?
4. A heavily damaged and/or corrupted mythal will continue to unravel. Like a cut sweater, only with large areas of wild magic and all the other fun we know from Myth Drannor and Myth Glaurach. Except it was more powerful and solidly built (affecting the whole planet and surviving all this time), so its decay probably would be slower, but may reach anywhere in the world (and maybe occasionally "entertain" the rest of Realmspace).
Add to that list the Spellplague.
The Spellplague did mess with many Mythals, and even heavily damaged most of these that had proper maintenance and were cared for everyday (like the Mythal of Silverymoon). Now, imagine what would have done to an abandoned and already damaged Mythal... |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2018 : 17:42:43
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Actually, aside from weakening Silverymoon's mythal, I'm pretty sure mythals were pretty much ignored by the Spellplague.
I just took a quick gander at the FRCG, and while it does claim mythals were affected, the only one described as having been affected is Silverymoon's. The mythal blurb says it was shattered, but the description of Silverymoon says it is there but weakened... There is no mention of anything happening to Myth Drannor's mythal, and aside from the Walking Statues, the only affect on Waterdeep was breaking tracking magics (Waterdeep is protected by a mythal, Aghairon's Dragonward, and sits on top of another, the Melairshield). There's no mention of anything happening to Myth Nantar's mythal, either.
I remember that being a complaint of mine, at the time: in one of the web articles, the Spellplague was described as ignoring or flowing around areas of high magic, like where there were mythals. How it ignored some areas of high magic and still caused Halruaa to blow up was conveniently ignored. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 01 Feb 2018 17:54:36 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2018 : 19:54:29
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And that is incorrect. Multiple past sources confirm that the fields of magic in Silverymoon are not a mythal - they are mutliple wards layered overlapping each other in some places. This is why the ward token work.
It makes perfect sense that the spellplague - stupid as it was - would effect normal wards just like it affected other magic.
Mythal are different - they are like special places of the weave. Which, btw, is what they are tied to - not some rock or statue :P
I think the statue in Evereska in the books was of Hanali - not certain though. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2018 : 20:45:22
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
And that is incorrect. Multiple past sources confirm that the fields of magic in Silverymoon are not a mythal - they are mutliple wards layered overlapping each other in some places. This is why the ward token work.
You are both correct and incorrect. In 2E, it is stated that Silverymoon has a bunch of magic wards, and that a mythal was planned but never cast.
3E, with its deliberate brushing aside of prior canon, ignored this and said Silverymoon had a mythal. And other sources since then have said the same thing.
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I think the statue in Evereska in the books was of Hanali - not certain though.
I'm fairly certain you are correct. It seems an odd choice, though. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2018 : 08:05:09
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By the way everyone, I forgot to say it in my last post...
Thank you all for your responses! |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2020 : 01:46:07
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Great Reader Karsus,
I've always wondered, beyond the initial mythal, if concomitant activities facilitated dracorages? In 1018 there was the fall of Pelevaran. Not sure if that is the case, but the 1373DR entry in GHotR says,
quote:
...precipitating a Rage of Dragons independent of the appearance of the King-Killer Star in the heavens.
Any thoughts on that?
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-25000 DR, -3500, 1018 DR, and 1373 DR all were years where it happened, but that's a lot of variance and plenty of time in the inbetween (especially the first two and second two) for others.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2020 : 11:26:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I think the statue in Evereska in the books was of Hanali - not certain though.
I'm fairly certain you are correct. It seems an odd choice, though.
Well, matters of anchoring mythals were clarified by Ed elsewhere by now.
Why "an odd choice", however?
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
I've always wondered, beyond the initial mythal, if concomitant activities facilitated dracorages?
In 1018 there was the fall of Pelevaran. Not sure if that is the case, but
It doesn't say anything about how this happened in 1018 DR, so probably the normal way.
Either way, the Dracorage was not limited to one city, this was just a particularly infamous incident this year:
quote:
from Cult of the Dragon:
In the Year of the Dracorage (1018 DR), most of Faerūn suffered from various draconic rampages. While Cult historians have attempted to claim responsibility for all of that year's draconic attacks, such a proposition is clearly ludicrous. If the Cult truly possessed such extensive control of evil dragonkind across the face of the Realms, they would surely have conquered all of Toril long ago. However, one event of that year - the obliteration of Peleveran in a "rage of dragons" - was brought on by the Cult;
quote:
the 1373DR entry in GHotR says,
quote:
...precipitating a Rage of Dragons independent of the appearance of the King-Killer Star in the heavens.
Well, yeah. 1373 DR is the year when Sammaster finally activated the mythal "manually", so the mess described in the trilogy ensued.
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People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2020 : 16:02:24
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I think the statue in Evereska in the books was of Hanali - not certain though.
I'm fairly certain you are correct. It seems an odd choice, though.
Well, matters of anchoring mythals were clarified by Ed elsewhere by now.
Why "an odd choice", however?
Mythals are hugely important to the communities they shield. They provide a lot of non-defensive benefits, both to individuals and to the community at large, but the biggest benefits are usually the defensive ones that protect the entire community.
Given that a mythal is such a major thing, and is a large part of the community's defense -- does it really make sense to leave the keystone that is central to the mythal's operation just sitting out in the open, entirely unprotected?
Also, does it make sense for an entire community's defense to be tied to a deity of love?
Me, if I was making a mythal-shrouded community, and said mythal was tied to a keystone, that keystone would be buried under the middle of the most well-defended place in the community, with traps and wards and hidden passages keeping people from finding it, a false keystone to misdirect people, and a baelnorn -- at the least -- to guard the real one. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 01 Mar 2020 16:03:51 |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2020 : 16:31:38
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Master TBeholder,
Thank you for that. Makes sense.
What I was cooking up in my head was what if a sufficient source of influence/power, etc. were able to activate mythal's along an almost ley line sort of magical network (the Weave)? With the temple that allegedly had a portal to the Nine Hells to it at Pelevaran, it just seemed very coincidental to happen at a place like that...
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I think the statue in Evereska in the books was of Hanali - not certain though.
I'm fairly certain you are correct. It seems an odd choice, though.
Well, matters of anchoring mythals were clarified by Ed elsewhere by now.
Why "an odd choice", however?
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
I've always wondered, beyond the initial mythal, if concomitant activities facilitated dracorages?
In 1018 there was the fall of Pelevaran. Not sure if that is the case, but
It doesn't say anything about how this happened in 1018 DR, so probably the normal way.
Either way, the Dracorage was not limited to one city, this was just a particularly infamous incident this year:
quote:
from Cult of the Dragon:
In the Year of the Dracorage (1018 DR), most of Faerūn suffered from various draconic rampages. While Cult historians have attempted to claim responsibility for all of that year's draconic attacks, such a proposition is clearly ludicrous. If the Cult truly possessed such extensive control of evil dragonkind across the face of the Realms, they would surely have conquered all of Toril long ago. However, one event of that year - the obliteration of Peleveran in a "rage of dragons" - was brought on by the Cult;
quote:
the 1373DR entry in GHotR says,
quote:
...precipitating a Rage of Dragons independent of the appearance of the King-Killer Star in the heavens.
Well, yeah. 1373 DR is the year when Sammaster finally activated the mythal "manually", so the mess described in the trilogy ensued.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2020 : 11:22:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Given that a mythal is such a major thing, and is a large part of the community's defense -- does it really make sense to leave the keystone that is central to the mythal's operation just sitting out in the open, entirely unprotected?
"Out in the open" and "unprotected" are different things.
We don't know how it's watched and defended, if any.
Depends on the approach. The place being in the open open and lacking cover may be a feature, not a bug.
Assuming there are at least basic magical protections on top of security-by-obscurity, any real threat to this would be able to infiltrate a fortress too. It may be harder to win time for defeating said protections in a place completely open to counterattacks.
Maybe they just didn't see it as a big deal. And weren't too wrong. What have threatened it, until a whole army of the phaerimm?
Maybe the way it was done then, there and by those High Mages, it needed to be in the open and mostly aboveground.
quote:
Also, does it make sense for an entire community's defense to be tied to a deity of love?
Depends on the community. Evereska? Maybe.
Besides, it's not necessarily was planned all at once. It may be coincidental. Suppose it was the area clergy of Hanali already used, maybe even blessed.
Then they go "oh, hey, let's raise a mythal". The same place turns out to be a good place for the anchor. What would they do?
Ask Hanali herself via divination, maybe. So she agreed. Or even picked the statue option, if there were variants.
quote:
Me, if I was making a mythal-shrouded community, and said mythal was tied to a keystone, that keystone would be buried under the middle of the most well-defended place in the community,
"Buried" (assuming it was an option) is not necessarily a good thing when a lot of magic is a prerequisite to be involved with this at all.
Anyone who could get to it could also get to it unnoticed.
quote:
with traps and wards and hidden passages keeping people from finding it, a false keystone to misdirect people, and a baelnorn -- at the least -- to guard the real one.
There may well be all of those. Why not?
What we "know" from the novels?
1. Lots of shouting and fencing with a bit of spellcasting more than a few steps away from it and obviously not directly related to it caused no visible reaction.
Sure, why should it have been otherwise? Even if the guards were alerted, what they see?
2. Defences, if any, ultimately proved insufficient to stop a massed attack from the phaerimm (and may or may not slowed them down a bit).
But then, what was up to this task, other than the Sharn Wall or a counterattack with comparable forces?
My point is, this does look like a random pick, but there's just not enough related lore to tell what exactly was done, what could have been done, and whether it was a good or bad idea "in-universe". |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2020 : 18:11:00
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Mater Rupert,
Bringing up the fact that Hanali Celanil is the deity of love is a straw man diverting from the fact the clear question at the root of this: does that deity possess the power, in whatever form that manifests, to protect. Well, one of her portfolio's is protection. I am not saying it is good enough to protect them, but phrasing the question in terms of what seems to be love being a deficit or detractor, denies other truisms of the Realms with deities.
For example, Ilmater is often seen as a weak deity because of how he projects his values and principles through his faithful followers. However, it is well documented in lore than the Crying God is a fearsome, even by the gods standards, foe to behold when someone has crossed the line. I don't know for sure if that is the case with Hanali Celanil, but I think it warrants more research to first see if perhaps out of the many thousands of years that she has been a powerful and significant deity in the pantheon, if there is merit to the notion that she would be well suited for that kind of gig.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I think the statue in Evereska in the books was of Hanali - not certain though.
I'm fairly certain you are correct. It seems an odd choice, though.
Well, matters of anchoring mythals were clarified by Ed elsewhere by now.
Why "an odd choice", however?
Mythals are hugely important to the communities they shield. They provide a lot of non-defensive benefits, both to individuals and to the community at large, but the biggest benefits are usually the defensive ones that protect the entire community.
Given that a mythal is such a major thing, and is a large part of the community's defense -- does it really make sense to leave the keystone that is central to the mythal's operation just sitting out in the open, entirely unprotected?
Also, does it make sense for an entire community's defense to be tied to a deity of love?
Me, if I was making a mythal-shrouded community, and said mythal was tied to a keystone, that keystone would be buried under the middle of the most well-defended place in the community, with traps and wards and hidden passages keeping people from finding it, a false keystone to misdirect people, and a baelnorn -- at the least -- to guard the real one.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2020 : 19:15:22
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quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Mater Rupert,
Bringing up the fact that Hanali Celanil is the deity of love is a straw man diverting from the fact the clear question at the root of this: does that deity possess the power, in whatever form that manifests, to protect. Well, one of her portfolio's is protection. I am not saying it is good enough to protect them, but phrasing the question in terms of what seems to be love being a deficit or detractor, denies other truisms of the Realms with deities.
For example, Ilmater is often seen as a weak deity because of how he projects his values and principles through his faithful followers. However, it is well documented in lore than the Crying God is a fearsome, even by the gods standards, foe to behold when someone has crossed the line. I don't know for sure if that is the case with Hanali Celanil, but I think it warrants more research to first see if perhaps out of the many thousands of years that she has been a powerful and significant deity in the pantheon, if there is merit to the notion that she would be well suited for that kind of gig.
Best regards,
It is not a straw man to point out that given a deity that is known to be a protector of the elven race, using a love deity as a guardian, instead, is an odd choice.
Sure, both can protect -- but one is known for it and has it as more of a primary gig.
Tymora can protect her followers, too -- but if you need a guardian, you're calling for Helm. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 02 Mar 2020 19:16:08 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2020 : 20:18:26
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I'll just say that if enemies are close enough to shatter the statue of Hanali in the centre of Evereska so as to disrupt the mythal, the place is clearly screwed.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2020 : 21:51:31
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Master Rupert,
Indeed it was a straw man argument:
You gave the impression of refuting Master TBeholder's argument (which was quoting only him), while actually refuting an argument that he did not present. That is literally the definition of a straw man. A deity of love wasn't the issue at hand, it was protection. You wrote (5) sentences, which were:
quote:
Mythals are hugely important to the communities they shield.
The clear connotation of the word shield is, protection.
quote:
They provide a lot of non-defensive benefits, both to individuals and to the community at large, but the biggest benefits are usually the defensive ones that protect the entire community.
You qualify some non-defensive benefits, but draw the largest attention with a conditional operator to the "defensive ones that protect the entire community." Protection again.
quote:
Given that a mythal is such a major thing, and is a large part of the community's defense -- does it really make sense to leave the keystone that is central to the mythal's operation just sitting out in the open, entirely unprotected?
Again, you focus on community defense and questioning a possible state of being "unprotected." Clearly again focusing on protection.
quote:
Me, if I was making a mythal-shrouded community, and said mythal was tied to a keystone, that keystone would be buried under the middle of the most well-defended place in the community, with traps and wards and hidden passages keeping people from finding it, a false keystone to misdirect people, and a baelnorn -- at the least -- to guard the real one.
You focus on the importance of the mythal by acknowledging the need to protect it. Again, protection.
quote:
Also, does it make sense for an entire community's defense to be tied to a deity of love?
The only statement you make which includes defense again, that has nothing to do with the rest of your statements is questioning whether or not a "deity of love" is the correct choice. While Hanali Celanil is a "love" god, one of her portfolio's is enchantments and one of her domains is protection.
I think the real question here is whether her domains and portfolios are suitable for protection, not whether another unrelated portfolio disqualifies her. If that is your focus, why did you not ask the deity of love question this way?
"Also, does it make sense for an entire community's defense to be tied to a deity of love, romance, beauty, enchantments, magic item artistry, fine art, artists?" I feel the answer is pretty obvious: because that rephrased question, as was the initial question, are irrelevant. You were clearly focused on protection, but inserted a distracting argument to pull away from the only point: protection.
I would have agreed with you if it turned out that Hanali Celanil had no protection in her domain, but it seems to me that she is focused on protection.
So, my question for you Master Rupert is: What's love got to do with it? **Conjuration Cast: Summon Tina Turner!** https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGpFcHTxjZs
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Mater Rupert,
Bringing up the fact that Hanali Celanil is the deity of love is a straw man diverting from the fact the clear question at the root of this: does that deity possess the power, in whatever form that manifests, to protect. Well, one of her portfolio's is protection. I am not saying it is good enough to protect them, but phrasing the question in terms of what seems to be love being a deficit or detractor, denies other truisms of the Realms with deities.
For example, Ilmater is often seen as a weak deity because of how he projects his values and principles through his faithful followers. However, it is well documented in lore than the Crying God is a fearsome, even by the gods standards, foe to behold when someone has crossed the line. I don't know for sure if that is the case with Hanali Celanil, but I think it warrants more research to first see if perhaps out of the many thousands of years that she has been a powerful and significant deity in the pantheon, if there is merit to the notion that she would be well suited for that kind of gig.
Best regards,
It is not a straw man to point out that given a deity that is known to be a protector of the elven race, using a love deity as a guardian, instead, is an odd choice.
Sure, both can protect -- but one is known for it and has it as more of a primary gig.
Tymora can protect her followers, too -- but if you need a guardian, you're calling for Helm.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
Edited by - cpthero2 on 02 Mar 2020 22:06:26 |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2020 : 22:09:45
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Master Krashos,
I would also agree with that, as well as saying, since Hanali has protection as a domain, I would think she's really not done a very good job of equipping her followers and that statue with adequate protection.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I'll just say that if enemies are close enough to shatter the statue of Hanali in the centre of Evereska so as to disrupt the mythal, the place is clearly screwed.
-- George Krashos
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2020 : 23:17:16
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I don't get how it's a straw man argument to say that a deity known as the Protector who is explicitly stated to be a vigilant guardian and protector of the elven race is a more suitable protector for an elven city than an underling of his who is all about love.
But whatever. Call it what you will. I'm done. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2020 : 23:21:14
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Master Rupert,
Well, that I can certainly see an argument for in terms of suitability. My point was only about the love aspect.
Now, here is a question for you...
Do you feel if Corellon was the best suited (and he very well could be), do you think he likely delegates things out? Like you see with the President giving the VP things to do, etc. I would imagine with all of the different things going on he would have to do that.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't get how it's a straw man argument to say that a deity known as the Protector who is explicitly stated to be a vigilant guardian and protector of the elven race is a more suitable protector for an elven city than an underling of his who is all about love.
But whatever. Call it what you will. I'm done.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2020 : 19:08:20
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I'll just say that if enemies are close enough to shatter the statue of Hanali in the centre of Evereska so as to disrupt the mythal, the place is clearly screwed.
Indeed. For storming the place by force, at this point it makes little difference.
For scenarios of unauthorized access by stealth, divine involvement alone can give just about any potential troublemaker fits of "second thoughts" about messing with it without very good reasons. One way or another.
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People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2020 : 19:33:08
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Master TBeholder,
Agreed. While I certainly get the point that Master Rupert was driving at, my agreement with you about the involvement in any degree of a deity in such powerful magics, even one who happens to possess a portfolio of love, is not to be trifled with. Lest you want to deal with that deity and the outcomes personally.
That love deity may just turn out to love whoopin' some non-believers with the power of tough-love. ;)
I really feel as well that a statue of Hanali may possibly lure beings with bad intentions into believing they could actually get away with it. In that sense, you could foil the plot, as well as deal with the aggressor(s).
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I'll just say that if enemies are close enough to shatter the statue of Hanali in the centre of Evereska so as to disrupt the mythal, the place is clearly screwed.
Indeed. For storming the place by force, at this point it makes little difference.
For scenarios of unauthorized access by stealth, divine involvement alone can give just about any potential troublemaker fits of "second thoughts" about messing with it without very good reasons. One way or another.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2020 : 22:24:35
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I'll just say that if enemies are close enough to shatter the statue of Hanali in the centre of Evereska so as to disrupt the mythal, the place is clearly screwed.
Indeed. For storming the place by force, at this point it makes little difference.
For scenarios of unauthorized access by stealth, divine involvement alone can give just about any potential troublemaker fits of "second thoughts" about messing with it without very good reasons. One way or another.
Considering that a band of assassins gathered right there with the intent of murdering the royal family of Evermeet, I think that unauthorized access by stealth is clearly a viable option for any bad guys, here. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Kingkiller Star
