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Dark Angel
Acolyte
8 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Jan 2018 : 09:33:17
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Do you have to pay wages to your followers in 3.5? Cant seem to find any info on the topic in the source books. I know you have to feed and equip them but it says nothing about wages. Would you pay them the same as hirelings? This can be a major problem if you have the epic leaders feath.
Any input would be a great help.
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2018 : 10:47:57
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Not sure how it works in 3.5E.
In 1E/2E you could have any number of hirelings, you paid their wages (summarized on some charts in the DMG) or they went away, you paid for their upkeep (food, shelter, tools/weapons/gear/etc) or they couldn't do their job.
And you had followers - basically the same thing as hirelings except they were attracted to characters of great status and fame and repute, etc - you paid for their upkeep and you paid their wages or they'd eventually desert you, more loyal than mere hirelings and mercenaries but not like they've sworn unbreakable oaths of binding loyalty or anything, they'll do their job (much more competently than most work-for-pay types) but they generally won't be inclined to sacrifice themselves in suicidally epic and risky things like PC heroes would. Different types of followers might have different staying power, a pack of thieves might drift away quickly, a little horde of berserkers might find a more aggressive warlord, a contingent of mounted knights might dutifully finish a battle then formally resign. Followers tend to really be in it for the honour or service or glory or whatever ... but the gold doesn't hurt, and denying them a share of the gold they feel they've earned is a bad idea. If they don't think they're getting fair payment of some kind then they'll probably consider looking for some other leader or cause to follow. They likely wouldn't leave on treacherous terms, they did after all worship and revere the PC hero before, so they'll probably not abandon the PC (and his allies) to certain death in times of dire need (unless they're evil-aligned and have been treated poorly?) ... but they will still leave. Maybe they'll come back later if called, especially if promised proper shares of gold and glory.
And you have henchmen. Basically full-blown NPCs with real character sheets and levels and personalities and stuff, they often tag along with (or in place of) the PC himself, they are entitled to a proper (if somewhat lesser) share of the loot and XP. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dark Angel
Acolyte
8 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2018 : 11:40:38
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Thanks.
My group have about 80,000 so i think we have to invade a small nation to meet their salary quota for the month lol. We may have to look at how many we can afford and not how many we can attract. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2018 : 12:06:08
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| If you have 80,000 you must have a nation or can form one. Collect taxes to pay followers. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2018 : 13:05:31
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The normal rules weren't written with 80,000 followers in mind. Something more like 200 veterans at most, led by perhaps 20 elites, along with a mid-level Captain and one or two low-level Lieutenant types who functioned as liaisons between the troops and their illustrious PC war leader. Although PCs could hire vast armies if they could afford them.
80,000 troops is a tremendous number, the PC probably couldn't interact directly with so many unless he addressed them all from a balcony like some kind of nationalistic dictator. Compare vs the largest and most populated cities in the Realms which average closer to maybe 20,000 to 40,000 citizens - although they might hold perhaps 60,000 or more (all the people from the surrounding villages and farmlands) during times of siege or whatnot, and would only have enough food stores to last one season at most. And consider that such large city populations all have endless problems with disease and sanitation and crime, which might be less in a cadre of disciplined troops but only when they're adequately supplied and adequately serviced by non-military personnel.
Your 80,000 troops is almost the Realms equivalent of Xerxes's grand army of legend - causing the earth to tremble from their marching and drinking whole rivers dry - an exaggeration, but not by much when you consider that 80,000 troops passing through will consume a whole month's worth of food/livestock/crops from a typical mid-sized town, just by stopping for lunch.
The largest military organization I'm aware of in the Realms is (was) Zhentil Keep's standing army, some 20,000 strong I think. Or the Flaming Fist mercenary "band", some 10,000 strong. Even the orc hordes and occasional "armies of darkness" which have risen up every few centuries typically number, at most, "only" 50,000 or so. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 23 Jan 2018 13:13:04 |
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Dark Angel
Acolyte
8 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2018 : 14:07:02
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Thats the combind number from my epic lvl group who all have the epic feat and another feat that doubles your number. Our campaign is a war riddled one that is streached across all of faruen. Need to slay some dragons incase we need to pay for overtime :-)
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2018 : 14:09:14
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Dark Angel indicated 80,000 followers, it is unlikely all of them are troops as such. I would expect that tradesmen and farmers would be part of the followers.
Like I indicated there is enough for a city state or a realm. To even have that many there must be some kind of land held or at least rented. To even have a base requires some square miles of land. Having four followers to the acre require over thirty-one square miles. The followers clearly could be more dense if not farming however short of building up or down you would need at least 100 square foot per follower (10 X 10) which require about 183 acres. The 10 X 10 is basically standing room. Not much storage work shops and so on.
I am trying to understand how a DM could assign that many followers in the first place without assigning a nation or at least a land holding of some kind. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Dark Angel
Acolyte
8 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2018 : 15:16:43
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We have the land with three cities linked by portals but due to events they are not fully populated at the moment the main city is only got about a third of its capacity filled( long story but we disappeared for a 100 years) Farming land isnt a issue either because the city is in the western heartlands and has unclaimed areas around it.
The issue at the moment is having the funds to support them in the field now. |
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Starshade
Learned Scribe
Norway
279 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2018 : 17:04:39
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I think you got about the size of the entire roman military service with all camp followers and mercs, auxiliaries, etc.  |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2018 : 17:38:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Angel
We have the land with three cities linked by portals but due to events they are not fully populated at the moment the main city is only got about a third of its capacity filled( long story but we disappeared for a 100 years) Farming land isnt a issue either because the city is in the western heartlands and has unclaimed areas around it.
The issue at the moment is having the funds to support them in the field now.
Your taxes from the lands and cities are paying your followers. It might not have been a detail your DM made you account for, however clearly your followers have been paid, fed and supplied with equipment the past months or years. Such support clearly still exists.
Now if you are going on to a war time setting of some kind in that followers expect higher pay clearly you need additional funds. This might be accomplished in about three ways.
Use personal wealth of characters.
Impose war taxes.
Barrow or steal funds from others.
Your DM should tell you how much more funds you need for war. Your DM clearly should explain how in the past your followers were paid and supplied. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2018 : 18:59:40
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Sun Tzu said that a large army is like a fire. It burns and consumes all land and people around it, it must always be kept moving in the enemy's territory, and it will burn itself out when given no fuel.
Wikipedia says: "The [Roman Imperial Legion] auxilia consisted, under Augustus, of about 250 regiments of roughly cohort size, that is, about 500 men (in total 125,000 men, or 50% of total army effectives). Under Severus the number of regiments increased to about 400, of which about 13% were double-strength (250,000 men, or 60% of total army)."
Bear in mind that a few generals permanently stationed their handpicked cohorts of five or ten thousand loyal "Praetorian" soldiers in Rome itself, while all the other Roman soldiers were scattered across the entire Empire - "three quarters of the known world". Not as many soldiers were on the "front lines" (Britannia and Germania) fighting those stubbornly uncivilized (un-Romanized) barbarian natives as you might think - the overwhelming majority were in fact actually garrisoned across all of the firmly Roman-occupied territories, in no small part because the logistics of keeping all the legions fed and supplied was otherwise unjustifiably complicated and expensive. During this phase of Rome's greatest military might there were many relentless pressures in Rome itself to reduce the Legion, too many popular (and unpopular) generals had too many troops loyal to them, too many men were taken off the fields when needed most for planting or harvesting, "producing" nothing for their brothers but double the burden in toil and food and taxes. Rome always had to go to war, find a war, make a war - and Rome always had to be a great hero, so Rome always had an enemy who was a great villain (sound familiar?) - there was simply no other way to sustain such a large professional military force. A weapon unused is a useless weapon. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 23 Jan 2018 19:03:23 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2018 : 19:02:57
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All that being said, if you are more about the RPG aspects of this scenario (although once you have numbers like that, you've moved a little beyond normal RPG parameters and are moving into 'wargame' territory), then I would discuss it with your DM, and say that it would be mutually beneficial to NOT figure out all the minutia involved in running a small country (because THAT is what you are already doing), and that you say that you are collecting taxes (actually, some of your followers are acting as the unseen 'hand of government' that does this stuff), and that those taxes are paying people for services, supplies, upkeep, etc, etc... and its a 'wash'. If you've been gone for a hundred years, then this should of happened on its own (so your realm is now on 'autopilot').
In other words, just assume you are taxing your people enough (and its all happening behind the scenes, automatically, because you've hired competent people to take of such things) to cover all expenses of the day-to-day management of your lands. You get no 'extra' gold form this, nor do you lose any. Thats the point of taxes. Now, if you are a greedy git and tell you DM you'd like to make a little extra, than that is also fine... but now you may be over-taxing your people. Depending upon how much should be a sliding scale depending upon your tax rate (many computer games that are sims have a mechanic like this, like Civilization, or Tropico - two franchises I LOVE, BTW.) Your DM may want to look at some charts and tables from those types of games to see how they figure it. Like, you generate 1GP in tax per year from your people which covers exactly your needs. for each percentage over that, would be a percent chance to 'stir unrest' per week. Something along those lines (Your DM should be figuring this stuff out, NOT me).
But to simplify things, as I've said, simply call it a wash - your collecting taxes, but its all going back into your realm, and everyone is happy. Then you can just ignore the drudgery of kingdom maintenance... until you and your DM are into that sort of thing. personally, it sounds like a lot of unnecessary extra work for an RPG (but NOT for a Sim, which is completely different - and enjoyable - type of game). This should also cover the normal levels of graft and corruption, whether you and your friends want to acknowledge it going on or not.
One last thing, of personal interest - where are all these countries (in FR) coming from? You talk about your little realm (and I can picture that), but then you are talking about a global war... I'm just not picturing that in The Forgotten Realms. It doesn't have traditional kingdoms, with 'hard' borders. Not that I would begrudge anyone from loving playing in the Realms, but there are other settings - even D&D settings - better built for that sort of campaign. Birthright is an excellent example - your DM may want to look into those rules. Its D&D, but its all about ruling realms. You should be able to find it all for free on the internet (NO, not illegally, WtC used to give it all away for free on their site, but then they killed all those links but you can still find them around if you look, or ask someone nicely... I'm sure a dozen or more people around here know how to still access those old files). Of course you won't want to restart your campaign elsewhere, but at least those rules and that setting will give you some idea on how to go about this sort of thing.
Cheers |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 Jan 2018 19:10:52 |
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blade020877
Seeker
Ireland
72 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2018 : 19:18:24
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i am part of this game, just some information that might help. the reason why we have a large army is that our enemy has allied with a few nations with quite large armies. one of these armies is 150,000. so maybe looking at it all wrong way, instead cut of supplies and take the armies money?
quote:
Bear in mind that a few generals permanently stationed their handpicked cohorts of five or ten thousand loyal "Praetorian" soldiers in Rome itself, while all the other Roman soldiers were scattered across the entire Empire - "three quarters of the known world". Not as many soldiers were on the "front lines" (Britannia and Germania) fighting those stubbornly uncivilized (un-Romanized) barbarian natives as you might think - the overwhelming majority were in fact actually garrisoned across all of the firmly Roman-occupied territories, in no small part because the logistics of keeping all the legions fed and supplied was otherwise unjustifiably complicated and expensive. During this phase of Rome's greatest military might there were many relentless pressures in Rome itself to reduce the Legion, too many popular (and unpopular) generals had too many troops loyal to them, too many men were taken off the fields when needed most for planting or harvesting, "producing" nothing for their brothers but double the burden in toil and food and taxes. Rome always had to go to war, find a war, make a war - and Rome always had to be a great hero, so Rome always had an enemy who was a great villain (sound familiar?) - there was simply no other way to sustain such a large professional military force. A weapon unused is a useless weapon.
or go on the offensive. invade our enemies lands to supply the army |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2018 : 20:36:31
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There's a nation in Faerûn with an army of 150,000? 
If you read the Empires series, canonically, it took the combined might of nearly all the 'Weastern Heartlands' nations - good, evil, dwarf - there were even Orcs! to form a single army of about 30K people. That was what could be mustered by nearly one half of Faerûn. And that was with Sembia buying a LOT of mercenaries out of Amn and Tethyr.
On the other hand, the Tuigan Horde numbered nearly 1 million strong, but most of that was gone by the time they swung toward Faerûn (technically, they did win against Shou-Lung, but it was a Pyrrhic Victory), and they could never field more than 2/3 of it at a time (they cycled 1/3 their troops home every 3-4 months, to keep everyone 'fresh').
And they lost, against the 30K troops of Faerûn, proving that numbers are meaningless in a world with epic magic. I think the Tuigan were down to around 150K when they finally met Azoun in battle. They had like a quarter million left, but as I said, they could only field 2/3 of that.
Thay had impressive armies, but they tended to use them against themselves more than anyone else, and even when a few cooperated, they couldn't do much, because the other Tharchions would start marching on THEIR territories, so those wonderful armies were mostly for defense (against other Thayans). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 Jan 2018 23:57:52 |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
877 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2018 : 22:11:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
There's a nation in Faerûn with an army of 150,000?
In 2E "Empires of the Shining Sea" Calimport alone had 7500 soldiers of the standing army, 12000-15000 mercenaries paid by the Syl Pasha's pockets and 12000 city guards, so the entire Crusade could have been fielded by this one city. Calimshan had something like 150 warships in its navy. Calimshan was a behemoth and Syl Pasha Ralan El Pesarkhal was whipping it into shape ...
And if you look at Thay's population figure from the 3E Campaign Setting you will realize that out of almost 5 millions of population 25% is made of humanoids (goblins, orcs, gnolls) that in a large percentage would be in the military in some way. Yeah Thay's standing army was definetely huge, too bad it didn't have a single purpose.
Semphar and Murghom had big standing armies in 2E if I remember correctly (about 30000-40000 not counting city guards) but they were outsmarted by the Tuigans. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2018 : 00:04:57
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Calimshan had much the same type of problems as Thay, though, but not to the same extent. If the Sly Pasha marched his army off to war, others would soon be knocking at HIS door with their armies.
Not that the Faerûnians were immune to any of that - the others (people other than Azoun and Cormyr) would not agree to go to war unless Zhentil keep sent troops, in fear that Zhentil Keep would attack them while their soldiers were away.
Its all a great big juggling act. Even in our RW. If you've seen Braveheart, the English King was off fighting a war with France, when the Scotts rebelled and marched on England. The prince threw an army together, but it was too green, and got destroyed. So the King of England had to sue for peace with France, and rush home with his real army. It happens.
If you are going to leave your country behind and go off to war, and take all you soldiers with you, then you had better make sure all your neighbors are also on board. You ever play Risk? That one guy behind you that you trusted all game can sweep the whole board and steal your victory. in fact, it was my personal favorite M.O.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 24 Jan 2018 00:05:11 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2018 : 00:19:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
There's a nation in Faerûn with an army of 150,000?
In 2E "Empires of the Shining Sea" Calimport alone had 7500 soldiers of the standing army, 12000-15000 mercenaries paid by the Syl Pasha's pockets and 12000 city guards, so the entire Crusade could have been fielded by this one city. Calimshan had something like 150 warships in its navy. Calimshan was a behemoth and Syl Pasha Ralan El Pesarkhal was whipping it into shape ...
And if you look at Thay's population figure from the 3E Campaign Setting you will realize that out of almost 5 millions of population 25% is made of humanoids (goblins, orcs, gnolls) that in a large percentage would be in the military in some way. Yeah Thay's standing army was definetely huge, too bad it didn't have a single purpose.
Semphar and Murghom had big standing armies in 2E if I remember correctly (about 30000-40000 not counting city guards) but they were outsmarted by the Tuigans.
One thing people always picture with Thay is that all the slaves are humans and all the humanoids are "enforcers". I actually picture that about half the humanoids are slaves. I picture that a lot of remote areas of the realms are more than willing to sell their captive goblinoids, etc... on the sly, and thus there are probably some adventurers out there without a "shoot first ask questions later" policy. Many of them may consider rounding up the women and children of the goblinoids and selling them into slavery a lucrative method of making money whenever the goblinoids themselves had nothing but coppers. I'd also imagine Thayan orcs and gnolls have absolutely no problem eating goblin, hobgoblin, etc... (or even gnolls eating orc slaves and orcs eating gnoll slaves). Now, orc eating orc... I won't say there will definitely be problems, but I would think most cultures do have a problem with eating their own kind. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2018 : 01:28:40
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In Realms of Infamy, there was a half-goblin down in Durpar who was a child of rape. The human raped the goblin. He killed the other goblins, and then raped a tiny, young goblin female. IIRC, she died in childbirth. When he was born, his grandfather put out his eyes (supposedly, that was 'commanded by their god', and had something to do with the main plot). First time I ever felt bad for goblins. Well, not really... there was that one Drizzt found, that was enslaved and abused by humans. Makes you question who the monsters are.
But yeah, in Thay I almost felt like non-mage humans (so non-Red Wizard) were the lowest class of citizen. It seemed like EVERYONE lorded it over them - gnolls, orcs, even centaurs! Nearly all of the Zulkers and Tharchions did not even consider them 'people'. They were just another resource to be exploited. Orcs were treated better.
GOD, I hate Thay. I guess that means they're 'doing it right'. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2018 : 16:42:04
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If you have an army of 80,000 that is mustered you should be attacking something. Otherwise, your army disbands until needed - soldiers go home to their farms, etc. when they are not being soldiers.
Why are they fighting? Unless you are on a Crusade or something that people came to fight for because they could get some other reward there is only 1 reason: for money, of course. How much depends on who they are, but with that many troops, you're talking a small fortune just to feed them, forget pay. Also, what are your supply lines? Frankly I can't imagine this was given any thought by the DM because there is no way you could do it without modern transportation systems.
Also, you should be sub-dividing. You call yourself "King," I assume. The King only needs to deal with his direct retainers. Beneath you there should be Dukes and even Archdukes (these control the Dutchies - kind of like states), beneath those there should be the Counts (who run the counties), and Lords (barons, mayors, etc). Also, direct retainers to the king would be things like mage-royal and royal scribe, etc.
Now, about wages for hirelings:
Militia should be 5sp per month while the lowest foot-soldier should be 1gp per month. From there, the price goes up as skill goes up. Archers and cavalry 3-6 gp per month. You get the idea. An army 80,000 strong would run about 150,000 per month assuming normal breakdowns. That's right, you should be spending 1.8 million gp a year. Doesn't sound very realistic does it? :P |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2018 : 17:21:05
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Under 3.5 the wages likely are higher. I built a small realm of about 70,000 with a standing army of 10,000 and between taxes food and wages made it come near a balance. I paid base troops 8 gold a week. Officers higher. The annual pay for troops is 7,144,852 gold per year. That has 12,626 people working for the government either civilian or military. Under 3.5 any skilled person needs to earn at least one gold a day. Untrained militia maybe one gold a week.
The troops are feed by taxes on the farmers (twenty percent of production) with extra gains sold for cash.
Of course all of the troops are paid by taxes with the Lord showing a net cash flow of 2272.25 per week. Other factors that I threw into this realm, considering the large army is that when not warring the troops do civilian works. Roads, support city watch buildings or and sometimes contracted out. Clearly not all factors of a realm are calculated in.
I only could make it balance by legal prostitution so that taxes could be collected on that. Also one reason troops paid well. They can occasionally afford that service.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2018 : 23:13:47
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| Why the huge inflation rate? Did we decide that CP, SP, and EP are worthless? |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2018 : 01:46:57
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| I've long noted edition inflation rates on the prices of chickens and 10-foot poles. Coppers and Silvers have indeed become "worthless", PCs tend to affluently throw Golds and Plats around, hardly bothering to carry smaller denominations (unless a few are needed as spell components) ... "keep the change" says the famous hero while he pays for his $12 breakfast with a $1000 bill, casually adding another as a tip (and saying "on second thought, I'd like a pint of ale") because he enjoys your eager hero worship ... and the sourcebooks have gradually shifted to match this attitude. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 25 Jan 2018 01:56:37 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2018 : 04:22:35
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Why the huge inflation rate? Did we decide that CP, SP, and EP are worthless?
Well there are a few things a cp can still purchase. As for wages the SRD provides this:
Hireling, trained 3 sp per day
Hireling, untrained 1 sp per day
These are not fighters. At least I would not expect that wage for them.
Translate to a week you are looking at over 2 gold a week for trained and almost a gold a week for untrained hireling.
It is hard to be able to purchase enough food a day to live on for one silver a day. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2018 : 05:18:14
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Don't forget taxes! The peasant toils on his land, producing food and goods, the tax collector then always ensures that the local lord receives a "fair" share. Production is taxed. Land is taxed (or "gelded"). The local church takes its tithe. And, of course, all the rents must be paid.
Taxation in Feudal governments varied greatly, some rulers (and some times) were especially harsh, other rulers (and times) were more benevolent or lenient (especially when concerned by peasant revolts and rebellions). But a serf (working someone else's land) could expect something like 90% of his "income" was not really his to spend, a freeman (who owned his land) could expect to pay something closer to 50%, but would then need to pay all sorts of other costs (like feed for his livestock, wages for his hirelings, repairs and materials and tools and equipment and fuel, etc) to maintain his holdings. The city-dweller was basically like a freeman, a lower overall tax burden but higher costs for purchasing everything else, even the most basic things. All told, not a whole lot of coin left over to spend on basics like food and clothing, very little coin (or time) left to spend on entertainments or luxuries or medicines.
Back in Medieval times the punishments for failing to pay one's debts were always brutal and often fatal, not paying your taxes merited particularly severe punishment as it was (and still is) invariably deemed one of the most foul and dangerous crimes one could commit against the state. You may think you "own" your home but just see what happens when you refuse to pay your property taxes for a few years.
An army is expensive. You can put them to work doing useful things, building stuff, imposing law and order - but then they're not training in the stuff they're supposed to be good at, they're not optimally battle-ready, and you can't move them into a war without losing your police force (when you need it most, lol), etc - plus you still gotta feed and supply and clean up after them. No taxes means no money, and a constant influx of treasure from external sources (like dragon hoards) means money quickly devalues to spiralling inflation. You could have banks and reserves, excess money gets locked away in the royal vaults, but this only delays the problem and makes it worse over time, like an infected wound. Or you could constantly pour wealth out of your nation by purchasing stuff from other nations, which ends up making your economy entirely reliant on external production, moves all the economic and production advantages outside your nation, and ends up being even worse in many different ways over the long run. Not to mention that a kingdom which is too prosperous and has streets paved in gold quickly attracts the attention of other kingdoms, who must become "allies" (that is, bribed or paid out in some way that they think it's better to stay comfortably rich than it is to gamble going for the jackpot) or "enemies" (who will continually maintain a growing military threat you have to counter). Feudal economics sucked, especially for those at the bottom, but the system was in place for a long time because it worked better than any of the alternatives (which were all tried, and all failed, many times before). |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 25 Jan 2018 05:53:03 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2018 : 05:51:06
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Ayrik The taxes are enough. As for troops doing roads or other civil tasks. Those items were make work in spare time. Training or actual combat comes first.
Most armies did/do have some specialists in things like building fortresses, roads, bridges and equipment repair as part of the army.
Yes the army is expensive, the reason I had to come up with more things to tax.
Of course I do not have to look at pensions that are a cost of these days that really was not a consideration when I tried to price out my realm. Odds are taxes would need to be twice as much if I had to fund pensions. Either that or have smaller army. ;) |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2018 : 05:56:36
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| Most soldiers did not serve or live long enough to collect pensions in olden times. Those who did often gravitated towards higher ranks and political aspirations, commanding ever higher wages. I suppose many would retire, but I suspect for most of these the pensions would probably be a one-time or short-term (few seasons, few years) payout, not a lifetime obligation. I don't really know, lol, but when kingdoms and city-nation-states precariously come and go every generation or so (and face endless threats from their neighbours) then long-term insurances seem less reliable. Maybe the gentry and nobility could draw security from laws and offices, but I think the disposable dirty undermass of humanity would largely be paid out on a per-service basis. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 25 Jan 2018 06:00:43 |
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Gelcur
Senior Scribe
523 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2018 : 06:07:21
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The short answer is in 3.5 followers are NPCs that you have to provide food and equipment, DMG p105. A poor meal for a day costs 1 sp per follower. Minimum equipment say simple tool or weapon, 5gp. Maybe another 10gp for other items, armor/bedroll/tent/etc. So roughly 15gp per follower up front cost.
Now for the complex answer, I have been sussing out the Leadership rules for a while now. Take all this with a grain of salt but this is how we have decided to run.
First there is the bonus of "Fairness & Generosity" note that the 1sp per day that you pay in food is the same as the cost of untrained labor. The cost of trained labor is 3sp per day, assuming these folks are being used for something other than standing around they are probably trained so to be considered generous one would have to pay them more than 3sp per day.
Then there is the topic of what do these followers do, some have argued that followers should be restricted to NPC classes of Commoner, Warrior, Expert. The 3.5 DMG leaves it vague, where Cohort spells out PC classes are expected, Followers does not. In fact the 3.0 DMG listed this very limitation, further more the Epic Handbook with the Epic Leadership feat never was updated and even contains an optional rule for followers with levels as Aristocrat/Adept, PC classes and/or PrCs, Epic Handbook p35. The 3.5 DMG suggests, p139, NPC classes at low levels in a community are divided up roughly 91% Commoners, 5% Warriors, 3% Experts, 1% Aristocrats/Adepts; of these 5% are militia and 1% are dedicated full time guards. So of 80,000 followers we would normally say only 4,800 were actually warriors/militia the rest are just farmers, craftsmen, merchants, etc.
If this wasn't complicated enough, Forgotten Realms has an excellent resource for Leadership in the a book called Power of Faerun. It adds additional ways of increasing your Leadership score and getting extra followers specifically for religion, commerce and/or war; often based on PrCs and/or rules from yet other books, PHB2/DMG2. It also takes some of the vagueness out of gain Followers, p156, changes Leadership from strictly to a score to a check you make to attract a specific type of Followers. One makes a Leadership check vs a DC after spending 1/day per Follower level. So if you have enough time to burn and a fairly good Leadership score you can attract mostly militant followers.
So what do I do with all these non-fighters? Well they can make money and pay taxes or tribute. Assuming you are willing to provide them with some good tools, Masterwork & +2 Magical, and some smithies to labor at, and say they work in 3 shifts so they can share tools. After wages you can make roughly 50gp per level 1 follower a month, we assume all other followers are middle management and are needed to keep goods moving from A to B, whatever you decide to pay them for wages, ~15gp/month each. There is also the cost of 117.5gp per each new level 1 follower for proper equipment to produce at a 50gp/month level. If you would rather forgo investing in your work force they can all get simple jobs with Professions like Farmer and easily make you 10gp/month per follower, after wages.
What do you do with all this gold well save up and hire mercenaries from surrounding regions before you go to war, at 2sp/day. No need to pay them all the time, just keep them around when you are actually at war. The rest of the time build up your stores of cash for a rainy day, or a drought or a famine, or whatever other mean thing a DM will roll randomly for.
Hope this was useful. If you have any questions ask. If you understand how Influence in Power of Faerun works in detail I would be forever grateful for assistance figuring it out. |
The party come to a town befallen by hysteria
Rogue: So what's in the general store?
DM: What are you looking for?
Rogue: Whatevers in the store.
DM: Like what?
Rogue: Everything.
DM: There is a lot of stuff.
Rogue: Is there a cart outside?
DM: (rolls) Yes.
Rogue: We'll take it all, we may need it for the greater good. |
Edited by - Gelcur on 25 Jan 2018 06:15:02 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2018 : 11:33:56
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You're saying military forces can be used to generate money, at least in non-wartime?
I suppose it's possible, I'm not expert in such things. But my understanding is that armies always cost money, like the post office, they'll always suck up whatever they can get and still want more.
Not saying they're unproductive. Far from it. The "Military-Industrial Complex" is a massive and multifaceted thing, companies and corporations and factories and research and technology, always state-of-the-art milspec everything, and in great numbers, constantly manufacturing enough guns and tanks and planes and bullets and grocery stores and toilet paper for every combat and non-combat unit. Interestingly, most countries in the "other" half of the world often favour the "Mil-Agro" approach instead, much the same thing except the emphasis is military control over food rather than over production.
This peacetime income generation must still pay these troops their daily wage, nobody's going to work for free (and pay taxes!) while they wait around for the next war. And, of course, they still need to eat, which means food has to come from somewhere, and food costs money.
Roman legions famously built the roads and bridges, aqueducts, city walls, forts, and garrisons ... they put infrastructure everywhere they were stationed for long enough. To simplify military logistics, mostly. But to the benefit of everyone in the Roman Empire, roads promote trade and travel, having military checkpoints and patrols on them is just a bonus. Alas, "all roads lead to Rome" meant that barbarian invaders who knew nothing about Europe just had to bump into a road and see where it goes.
We also enjoy numerous technological fruits grown in war. Antibiotics, microwave ovens, radios, microphones, computers, the list goes on and on. But back in pre-industrial times most military advances weren't very useful to civilians - siege weapons, firearms, artillery, castles, bunkers, etc - although I suppose military contributions to navigation, cartography, metallurgy, shipbuilding, and architecture can't be dismissed. Still, the Realms is trapped somewhere between Medieval and Renaissance technologies ... basically all tech described by Archimedes and Aristotle ... so it seems reasonable to expect that (aside from some garish and dangerous gnomish inventions) advances in military tech or military magic aren't going to make the common man's world much better anytime soon. The latest-greatest fad in Faerun being smokepowder, after all.
And even in today's world we sometimes see what happens when a nation cannot afford to pay armies. Destroyed from within, destroyed from outside, often a blurry bit of both as forces on both sides of the border are able to finance insurgency and civil strife in all sorts of clever (even untraceable, or at least plausibly deniable) ways.
80,000 soldiers multiplied by 3 silver per day = 240,000 silver per day (minimum) to pay costs of food, upkeep, and basic wages? That's basically one old dragon hoard per day, lol, gonna run out of dragons before winter. (Unless edition inflation has also multiplied dragon hoards?) |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 25 Jan 2018 11:50:57 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2018 : 14:43:50
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| Yeah - I would STRONGLY recommend throwing out 3.5s stupidity. If you want average prices go read the Volo's guides and revert to 2nd ED. In fact, revert to 2nd Ed for everything. Its just plain better. |
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Dark Angel
Acolyte
8 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2018 : 15:18:19
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Cheers guys,
You all have given me alot to think about. |
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Gelcur
Senior Scribe
523 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2018 : 16:31:24
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Part of the focus of my previous post is from 80,000 only 1%, 800, would be professional guards/soldiers that would only take and not pay in. 5%, 4,000, would lead everyday lives that would be called on for aid in times of need. I could see these % doubled or x4 given proper RP, war like people, or generations of war.
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Yeah - I would STRONGLY recommend throwing out 3.5s stupidity. If you want average prices go read the Volo's guides and revert to 2nd ED. In fact, revert to 2nd Ed for everything. Its just plain better.
My previous post does leans heavy on 3.0-3.5 material. Personally I find it a lot more ridged and well organized than hunting through 2E for tidbits. Plus stronghold builders guide is also a great resource. But to each their own.
I will say as far as "real world" Sun Tzu was mentioned earlier. He had quoted a thousand ounces of silver a day for 100,000 men. 1,000 ounces silver = 62.5 lbs = 6,250 sp = 625 gp. Divide by 100,000 gives us a cost of .625 cp a soldier a day. Maybe that could also be helpful. |
The party come to a town befallen by hysteria
Rogue: So what's in the general store?
DM: What are you looking for?
Rogue: Whatevers in the store.
DM: Like what?
Rogue: Everything.
DM: There is a lot of stuff.
Rogue: Is there a cart outside?
DM: (rolls) Yes.
Rogue: We'll take it all, we may need it for the greater good. |
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The cost of followers
