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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Jan 2018 : 19:53:40
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
4e 'happened' because FR just stopped being fun... as a D&D setting. We were no longer the drivers on a go-cart track (or riding a quad in the woods), we became people on a rollercoaster... with TRACKS. Sure its fun, but its going to take you in the direction IT wants to go. Thats the whole problem in a nutshell. Its just not a 'sandbox' any more at that point.
No, this particular piece, I strongly disagree with. 4e happened because the people running the ship basically said what a lot of politicians try to do. If I make too many changes at once, people won't be able to keep track and I can do what I want without have to work too hard. In essence, they knew they couldn't keep up with past lore (which was growing full of contradictions).
It wasn't because it was no longer fun.
No, that was the reason for the Spellplague and the timejump. The 4E ruleset was purely in imitation of WoW. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2018 : 22:53:55
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That part, I will agree with him on. It was 'balanced to the point of perfection', which sounds like a great thing for a game. Monopoly is perfectly balanced. So are most board games - everyone's on perfectly equal footing, which mans it all comes down to the luck of the dice. To me, every class in 4e felt the same, just 'reskinned'. No-one was going to do something and steal the thunder away from everyone else. On the surface, thats ounds like what D&D always needed. I can't blame them for thinking that.
But on the other hand, it didn't feel like D&D anymore. All the quirkiness was gone.
But now we are starting to get into the rules, and also, the lore of the setting (FR). Neither of those really have to do with my point, yet people want to use them as a point-of-reference. We can enjoy a set of rules, and we can enjoy the lore of a setting...
But when you are trying to run a tabletop RPG game, the rules really don't matter, and the lore is only good the moment it first comes out. Anything that moves the timeline forward, other than the individual DM, breaks each DM's game in a thousand tiny ways. The longer we play our campaigns, and the longer an edition has 'its run', the wider these cracks get, until it all just falls apart.
Now, we all know 4e D&D (the rules) was just a 'cash grab'. The owner of my LGS even referred to it thusly (even though he was the one who was supposed to be 'pimping' the stuff). 3e was losing steam, and Poppa Hasbro wanted some 4th quarter results. Thats EXACTLY what all of THAT was about.
Unfortunately, they took it as an opportunity to 'reinvent' The Forgotten Realms. As I just mentioned above, the cracks were starting to show... BADLY. But rather than try and fix all of that, they pulled a Star Trek. They gave it the same name, but really, it was a completely different setting. What was the same about it? Not even the planet was the same one we knew! The Crystal Sphere? SJ wasn't even a thing in 4e. The cosmology? Nope. The unbelievable number of NPCs? NOPE. What they did keep was the novel characters (thus proving my point that it was THEIR setting, not ours, and they were letting us know that - only our characters that we all worked so hard on died). The single greatest mass-TPK in gaming history. The land changed, the people changed, the gods changed... Hell, even Hell changed! Seriously, there was absolutely nothing 'Forgotten Realms' about it except for the name. They used it as a brand and stuck it on something else.
And then when they knew they screwed up - that they created a setting most people never wanted - they decided to retcon the whole thing. But they were afraid of calling it that, and losing the few 4e fans they managed to garner. Thus, we got the 'retcon that wasn't a retcon', which I still feel was the lamest way they could have went. Move forward, or take it all the way back, but this 'in between' thing is just weird, and confusing.
Personally, I think they should have gotten Ed, and a bunch of other luminaries from the Realms past (we all know who they are), including the original, Jeff Grubb, and rewrite the OGB, keeping it almost exactly like it was, but updating it (better art, layout, etc) and recreate it with the 5e rules (and with a consistent, pre-written timeline firmly in-place). If Ao was going to reset the world, then he should have done it the right way - go back to the beginning, when we all fell in love. Bring back that box that sparked so many of our imaginations. No ToT, no 'return of Shade', and god-help-us-all NO SPELLPAGUE. Just The Realms, all simple and good, just the way we found it.
And in a BOX... with STUFF. We miss our stuff. I'd gladly pay $100 for that, wouldn't most of us? A brand-new 5th edition OGB? With deluxe maps (by Mike Schley... with my input LOL), a 'players guide', etc. We don't need 'more'. We've never needed 'more' (for the GAME). THEY needed more - its called 'job security'. Then just give us Volo's guides until the end of time. That's all we want. No fifty splatbooks full of races, creatures, and classes we'll never use. And certainly no novels that move the timeline forward with game-breaking RSE's. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 Jan 2018 23:03:04 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2018 : 00:59:35
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In fact, I've always said that if they have name it something like "D&D Tactics" and have sold it as a wargaming game for miniatures instead as a 4th edition, 4e would have been easily accepted. And, saying that 4e "doesn't feel like D&D" is also not that true. Being a wargaming game, 4e is the most D&Dish of all the editions, because it goes all the way to D&D roots: Chainmail.
Yeah, the other opinion. Because 4e is not that bad. People hate it because mages were no longer broken, and because it ruined the Realms (something that 4e can't take the blame of, as they were ruining the Realms in 3e as well). But people often overlook the goods stuffs that 4e did. For instance, that it saved Dark Sun (a setting death and killed by a bad metaplot), it create a good chunk of lore that gave sense to the core setting, and brought a whole new generation to the game (thanks to people playing in youtube and twitch streams, games that starting in a 4e game; heck, even the most sold of the 5e games, the one played by the guys of Critical Role, is a 4e game—the 5e version is 4e lore with the names changed, because trademark issues). |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2018 : 02:07:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
4e 'happened' because FR just stopped being fun... as a D&D setting. We were no longer the drivers on a go-cart track (or riding a quad in the woods), we became people on a rollercoaster... with TRACKS. Sure its fun, but its going to take you in the direction IT wants to go. Thats the whole problem in a nutshell. Its just not a 'sandbox' any more at that point.
No, this particular piece, I strongly disagree with. 4e happened because the people running the ship basically said what a lot of politicians try to do. If I make too many changes at once, people won't be able to keep track and I can do what I want without have to work too hard. In essence, they knew they couldn't keep up with past lore (which was growing full of contradictions).
It wasn't because it was no longer fun.
No, that was the reason for the Spellplague and the timejump. The 4E ruleset was purely in imitation of WoW.
Yeah, when I said 4e, I meant the 4e FRCS. I have no clue in truth why they did the 4e ruleset.... I'm gonna go with drunk or high... but that's not something I want to get into. I will give them props for one thing on their ruleset though. RITUALS.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2018 : 04:33:28
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"Drunk or High" might have been words I, myself, might have used 11 years ago. However, the whole thing was hubris. That's all it was.
3e was broken - it ran too long, and the never-ending splatbooks were just pissing people off and breaking the rules further. FR itself was 'broken', for various reasons I discussed above. They needed something new (mostly to justify their own existence), and they thought they knew enough about what was wrong with it (D&D and FR alike) that they COULD fix it. Whereas I thought a lot of what happened was pure maliciousness at one point (and it may have been a little of that, but just on one person's part, as they steered the others down 'the dark side'), now I think it was just them actually thinking it was going to be awesome... and it wasn't.
Personally, if I were them, I think I might prefer the 'evil genius' tag over the 'screw-up' LOL. Because that's what it was - a SCREW-UP. A BIG one. They really thought making the rules perfectly balanced was going to be a good thing, and I can't fault them on that - I would have assumed the same thing. (also, I heard Essentials or whatever later fixed a lot of the 'everything feels the same'-ness of it all) As for FR, they thought the only way to get new young people into the Realms was by giving them a tabla rasa, just as they gave to us with the OGB. They were trying to recreate that. It may have succeeded, if they had just done a new setting whole-cloth. In fact, they did, and IT DID - it was the Nentir Vale setting, which I still think is VERY good (except for that one weird city where orcs and dwarves live together... that one still makes my eye twitch).
Now imagine if they had just created the Nentir Vale for the new 4e gamers, and instead re-did the OGB (like I talked about above) for us for 4e. Do you think it would have gotten the poor reception it did? FR fans are a VERY vocal lot, and having us scream "D&D SUCKS" at everyone that would listen (for a decade) certainly didn't help matters. So maybe if they didn't nuke our setting, things would have gone differently. Who knows. I am only now coming to realize they really did try to do something amazing with the Over-setting (D&D/Planescape), which I completely missed because I was ignoring 4e. Sure, it steps on a bunch of our lore, but it steps on all the other setting's lore as well - it was the only way to get it all to work together cohesively (because as phenomenal as PS was, it was anything but coherent). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Jan 2018 19:10:25 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2018 : 06:02:56
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I'm weak on Planescape, but what I've seen was far more coherent than Spelljammer. 
Spelljammer was my first love of D&D settings, and it's where my username comes from... And there was some really good stuff in it. At the same time, though, there was some utter crap, and overall, the setting reflected the same flaw that has plagued TSR and WotC both: a failure to think things all the way through.
It's that same flaw that saw the 3E era start strong and then head off the rails. It's that flaw that pushed the 4E rules to fail, and what caused the 4E version of the Realms to be something they needed to back away from. Hell, I think it's that same flaw that has caused their currently sparse publishing schedule. I almost have to wonder if it's something deeply ingrained in the company culture, considering how long its persisted...
As much as I hate to admit it, I can't say that I have the answers for what they need to do, going forward. It's easy to be an armchair quarterback -- it's a hell of a lot different when you're the one on the field, bright lights in your face, with seconds to decide how to get the ball out of your hand before several very large and not overly gentle lads try to smear you into the turf. I think I've got at least some of the answers -- but people thinking they had the answers is what led us here.
I wish like hell WotC actually involved the gaming community before making a decision -- but then I look at discussions like this one, and I can see why they don't.  |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 20 Jan 2018 15:39:32 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2018 : 17:25:38
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| I would say they did learn from the mistake, since they took steps to undo it. They simply didn't learn all the lessons they needed to learn. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2018 : 17:41:23
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| Not only that. They undid stuff, yeah, but also allowed some stuff from 4e that people liked to remain. I guess that, at the very least, they learned to hear the players (or most players). |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2018 : 18:19:14
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Possibly. People tend to learn only what they want to from a mistake (nobody likes to admit to themselves and others that they made a total balls up).
And people tend to see only what they want to see, as well. You don't like what they've done, so it's all a mistake. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2018 : 19:21:12
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I guess that 5e success (because its a success; 5e basically returned almost all the players who went to play Pathfinder to play D&D again) implies that they are doing something good. And that means that they somehow learned a lesson.
For us is not that good, because we have specific needs (we want lore, and not any lore, but specific lore about places and timelines, and that stuff). But for the people who don't care about that, that only plays D&D because they want to play the game, D&D is selling good, being again the best-selling RPG. And that means something.
Some of us may not like it, but that doesn't mean it is a mistake. Because, again, our needs are very specific. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 20 Jan 2018 19:21:56 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2018 : 19:29:18
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People tend to always think THEY "have all the answers". As much as I think I've been dipping into this subject-matter way too much lately (and this is one of my few remaining 'safe havens'), I have to once-again point to our current geo-political climate. Neither 'side' is about to back down from thinking they are 100% correct... about everything.
And that's a HUGE fallacy. 
No-one is right about everything, all the time. Some are lucky, like myself, and are right 99.9% of the time, but most aren't (see what I did there? I just used MYSELF as an example of how EVERYONE thinks nowadays. And even though I actually DO feel that way, I also realize I am wrong about that, and that everyone else feels equally strong about their opinions).
So the guys who make D&D and worked on 4e thought they had a great plan. Having a bunch of 'friends' that work with you, that slap you on the back and tell you how great all your ideas are is BAD BUSINESS. Because you are probably saying the same things to them, and it just becomes this uncomfortable orgy of back-slapping encouragement... which derails common sense, every time. In other venues, its called 'mob mentality'. You're just pulled along a certain path without thinking things through.
4e was just such a path. I truly feel that some of the designers, toward the end there, took a step back and said, "what have we done?" But by then, it was too late. As I said above, I don't think it was really maliciousness, I think it was undeserved self-assurance. The truly felt they 'knew better' and tried to fix it. Thats all that was.
By the same token, I think all of my ideas are pure gems (don't we all?) Thats why we need 'jerks' in this world. People to point to our stuff and say, "That sucks!" Your friends aren't going to do that (true friends would, but they are rare these days). Its also why we have a 'consensus'. They used that to create 5e, with all its testing on the community, and it appears to have worked out fine for them. It isn't 100% what any one person wanted, and it shouldn't be. Its what most of the people agreed was 'acceptable', and that's the best you can hope for. That's what makes a successful product - a consensus. Sure, you get the 'rare fluke' where someone was absolutely right about something, despite not getting outside input. Just as we can't all be right all of the time, we also can't be wrong all of the time. But you can't count on 'dumb luck' to run a company.
So, I'm back to HUBRIS. Thats what made 4e - mechanics and FR - happen. The idea that you can fix something, and you didn't need to listen to anyone else to get that done.
You see, hubris and I are old friends...  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Jan 2018 19:32:30 |
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arry
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
317 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2018 : 21:23:49
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| I partially disagree with you Marcus, a new game system does need a consensus but I don't believe a new game world does. A work of craft, hell a work of art like the FR needs one person with a vision. That person can't do it alone, they need help and assistance, but without that person you get design by committee. And we all know that a camel is a horse designed by a committee lol. |
Edited by - arry on 20 Jan 2018 21:25:55 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2018 : 21:40:30
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Ah but im not the only one. I dont have to work hard to like their products thats not how it works, they have to work hard to make me buy their products but im not so they failed.
Ah, I see. I didn't realize you were their only customer. Silly me. 
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
They found other people to buy their products for different reasons than i bought the old product but if they make the same mistakes then they will alienate those customers as well and prove they learned nothing.
But they are making money, and since they've gone out of their way to fix past mistakes, it shows they have learned something.
Again, just because you don't like what a company has done does not make it a failure.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2018 : 21:48:02
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quote:
Originally posted by arry
...a new game system does need a consensus but I don't believe a new game world does.
I actually was just talking about the mechanical end of things there (4e & 5e), so I agree with you.
With one caveat - in an established setting, one should at least get a 'feel' for what the fans want. Go out and talk to them, at conventions or whatever. Online probably isn't a good idea, except for PMs. It only takes a handful of trolls that disagree with something to completely skew the results. I've seen too many IPs lately that 'went off the rails' because one person was in-charge, and they just didn't give a Frak what anyone else thought (once again, we are back to hubris).
When I was working on the K-T and Utter East threads years ago over on the WotC forums, I learned a lot about myself. The hardest pill to swallow was that not everything that came out of my head was 'golden'. Also, sometimes you can become so enamored with one particular aspect of something, you lose sight of the big picture, and start trying to connect EVERYTHING to it, and that's simply not realistic. Sometimes things 'just happen', and there doesn't have to be a reason. This is how we wind-up with entire editions that revolve around 'Shadow-stuff', or aberrations. Everything in life should follow rule #1 - everything in moderation.
So listening to other people while developing 'YOUR setting' isn't such a bad idea, unless you are just developing it for yourself, and never plan to share it. Then that's a different story. Even JK Rowling admits she made a mistake not putting Hermione with Harry at the end (like most fans wanted). If she wanted her to end up with Ron (realistically), she should have killed Harry. It would have made for a more poignant ending... but then it wouldn't have been a 'kids book', would it?
quote:
Originally posted by arry
I partially disagree with you Marcus... <snip>
Never feel apologetic for disagreeing with me - see my Sig. 
I thank everyone for disagreeing with me, whenever possible - it keeps me on my toes. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Jan 2018 21:50:31 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2018 : 23:44:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
I guess that 5e success (because its a success; 5e basically returned almost all the players who went to play Pathfinder to play D&D again) implies that they are doing something good. And that means that they somehow learned a lesson.
For us is not that good, because we have specific needs (we want lore, and not any lore, but specific lore about places and timelines, and that stuff). But for the people who don't care about that, that only plays D&D because they want to play the game, D&D is selling good, being again the best-selling RPG. And that means something.
Some of us may not like it, but that doesn't mean it is a mistake. Because, again, our needs are very specific.
One caveat has to be added onto that though (and I do like 5e, but I realize it needs a LOT of work). They are selling well... for only releasing maybe 20% of the product that they used to release. Essentially, they've got a bunch of us who are "hooked". That being said, I only recently after the SCAG and Storm King's Thunder started buying their stuff again (beside the initial 3 5e books that is). I bought Xanathar's Guide and ToA, and I'm less impressed that I was with SCAG and Storm King's Thunder. Hell Xanathar's Guide has 18 pages out of 192 dedicated to giving character name choices, which really has cheesed me off. That could have been a web supplement and been a single line URL in the book. Those 18 pages could have been used to pretty much give an extra character class option to most of the classes (i.e. like how the wizard got war magic as another school). They also rereleased rules that they had put out in the SCAG (such as the storm sorcery for sorcerers). Why? Because they came up with a stupid rule that you can "only use one rulebook for convention play".
They also wasted space on random things to flesh out your character, which again could have been a URL link. The amount of print of most of that was also about 2 pages each time, which also could have been another character option for most classes. Or those two pages could have been used for more spell conversions.... or more magic item conversions.... There is so much from old editions that needs to be rebalanced and re-released its not funny. Basically, the rulesets for conjurers and necromancers are broken because there aren't enough spells and/or creatures to DO what they need to be able to do. The same problem exists with a lot of things.
Now, if they were releasing material at the rate that they did during 3e/3.5e, I wouldn't complain about these pretty much useless add-ins... because they were releasing material, so when you got a book or 2 a month, you knew there would be stuff you'd skim over. Some people might use it. Others wouldn't. But they were putting out so much that they could afford to shoot wide.
If there's one thing the DM's Guild has shown me, its that there's PLENTY of people out there that they could purchase ideas from. Most probably would give them for pretty cheap. Sure, a lot of its crap and needs some polish. But the base mechanics for the good ones are little gems, that when refined can really improve 5e.
So, didn't mean to rant... the moral of my story was they got a couple of us hooked again, but they need to either release more or make sure that what they release will keep us hooked. It would highly benefit them to start releasing novels again too. Otherwise its going to go down the tubes fast.
Oh, and
@Markustay - totally agree on the part about you have to have skin that's tough enough to accept that you can be wrong. I know some of my ideas suck. I also know that I pitch them, and even as I pitch them sometimes I'm like "I don't like this... but let's see where it leads". I hear people point out what doesn't work, and I try to rework it. What I appreciate is those people who tell me constructively when something I say sucks. The ones who just say "your stuff sucks" and don't say why.... ummm, they can kiss my a$$. I've also notice, usually those aren't the ones coming up with constructive ideas of their own. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 20 Jan 2018 23:53:13 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2018 : 01:35:54
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| Well, I did not said that WotC was selling. I did said that D&D 5e was selling. Because there is an OGL again. And the most popular setting of D&D 5e right now is the "Nentir Vale with the serial numbers filled out" setting of Tal'dorei, that is the setting where the campaing of the guys from Critical Role is taking place. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 21 Jan 2018 01:37:22 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2018 : 02:12:26
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Many factors involved both in terms of the change to 4E and the time jump in the Realms. The former was wholly a business decision. Nothing spikes WotC sales like a chance to sell new PHs, DMGs and MMs, especially in an environment where your OGL has gone in a direction that you hadn't thought through carefully enough (the expectation from WotC was that the OGL would see third parties focus on adventures for the 3E D&D game, not whole competing campaign worlds and crunch books - i.e. Pathfinder) and is damaging your core business.
The time jump in the Realms was driven in my opinion by personalities in the design team who were ensuring that they could keep work in house without relying on freelancers (i.e "Why are we paying you if you keep farming out the work?"), growing Realmslore research requirements and an opportunity to move on from a heavy reliance on Ed and create an environment where people could be creative with only a nod to what had gone before. Of course, at the time the transition was mooted, the product line design brief for the Realms was still unclear. As I understand it, it was only after 4E was up and running that a decision to only pretty much do "core" books for the various campaign settings was made. That softened a bit as the years went on, but never translated into anything that could be considered significant in terms of non-adventure sourcebooks/products.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2018 : 05:06:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Well, I did not said that WotC was selling.
Actually, I did see something the other day that said there were indications Hasbro was going to sell WotC in 2020. That said, it was only one article; I've not seen any other references to this theoretical sale. And the article was rather sparse on detail. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2018 : 09:30:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Well, I did not said that WotC was selling.
Actually, I did see something the other day that said there were indications Hasbro was going to sell WotC in 2020. That said, it was only one article; I've not seen any other references to this theoretical sale. And the article was rather sparse on detail.
Would you have a link to that article Wooly? |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2018 : 14:41:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Well, I did not said that WotC was selling. I did said that D&D 5e was selling. Because there is an OGL again. And the most popular setting of D&D 5e right now is the "Nentir Vale with the serial numbers filled out" setting of Tal'dorei, that is the setting where the campaing of the guys from Critical Role is taking place.
Just curious... what is "selling" from that... are they putting out some material for sale that I'm not aware of? They aren't charging for online articles anymore, correct? I'm sincerely wondering what's keeping them afloat right now since they aren't releasing material for us to buy. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2018 : 14:46:38
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Well, I did not said that WotC was selling. I did said that D&D 5e was selling. Because there is an OGL again. And the most popular setting of D&D 5e right now is the "Nentir Vale with the serial numbers filled out" setting of Tal'dorei, that is the setting where the campaing of the guys from Critical Role is taking place.
Just curious... what is "selling" from that... are they putting out some material for sale that I'm not aware of? They aren't charging for online articles anymore, correct? I'm sincerely wondering what's keeping them afloat right now since they aren't releasing material for us to buy.
All they've done is greatly reduce their overhead by limiting the amount of books they make. It gives this illusion that the game is making great money. The difference is that in the past, whatever money they were making was already going into the next product that was due just around the corner. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2018 : 15:14:50
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| Gary Gygax's original World of Greyhawk works were complements to his rulebooks and adventures, giving sample geographical and historical details for the sort of D&D world they assumed and implied. After Gary was forced out of TSR, none of their in-house designers -- judging by their work -- was especially in sympathy with the Gygaxian mode. Carl Sargent (a freelancer), Roger E. Moore and others took the boxed set and folio and developed the setting in isolation from that context and with their own rather than Gary's sensibilities and literary influences. They did what would have been quite proper in home campaigns, taking the original writing as a starting point, advancing the timeline and making it their own, and published it. The TSR and Wizards authors who inherited the published Realms, as creative people who chose or had to subjugate settings to current D&D and novel plans, faced the same temptation. |
Edited by - Faraer on 21 Jan 2018 15:26:33 |
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arry
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
317 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2018 : 15:18:49
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Just curious... what is "selling" from that... are they putting out some material for sale that I'm not aware of? They aren't charging for online articles anymore, correct? I'm sincerely wondering what's keeping them afloat right now since they aren't releasing material for us to buy.
Magic the Gathering? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2018 : 15:43:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Well, I did not said that WotC was selling.
Actually, I did see something the other day that said there were indications Hasbro was going to sell WotC in 2020. That said, it was only one article; I've not seen any other references to this theoretical sale. And the article was rather sparse on detail.
Would you have a link to that article Wooly?
Here it is. And my mistake, it's suggesting 2021 at the earliest.
As I said, though, it's long on speculation and short on anything concrete -- it's why I didn't share it before.
http://epicstream.com/videos/Hasbro-is-Rumoured-To-Be-Prepping-To-Sell-Wizards-of-The-Coast-in-2021 |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2018 : 17:43:29
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The flaws of 4e could have been glossed over if they didn't decide to crap all over the Realms and Greyhawk. I'm not even getting into the entire silliness that is Asmodeus becoming a Greater deity by om-nomming a lesser deity, but if you're going to kill off Mystra, then at least use her three squabbling servants for something other than cheap deaths. Elevate the other three as they're forced into becoming custodians of the Weave, because AO's tired of Mystra's deaths royally screwing over everything.
You can even weave in the Chosen of Mystra, as they struggle with their goddess gone. Azuth views them kindly, but Savras has not forgotten Sylune screwing him over and Velsharoon has never liked them. Savras-worship enjoys a massive boost in Halruua thanks to Zalathorm, while Thay unofficially adopts Velsharoon as their patron god. Tam grits his teeth, but necromancy now enjoys a massive boost in its popularity similar to the Halruuan affinity towards divination. All across the Realms, necromancy magics and divination spells are momentarily empowered as their patrons assume a greater mantle.
Meanwhile, Cyric is bound by the greater powers, who have finally lost patience for his antics. The Shattered Throne is destroyed, and Cyric himself is cast into the depths of Agathion.
Otherwise, life goes on. |
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An article that some may find interesting
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