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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Jan 2018 : 01:13:23
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
So I've made a map for the Orc-World of Ekur.
I've decided on a change of scale (pulling back from the world-spanning idea to focus on a smaller area) and with that the map I'm working with right now is far smaller in scope.
As you can see the area is still extensive.
Naming Orc locations is pretty fun...but some of them will likely be changed as I go along.
Lol, you have two Rok's... one should be New Rok.... or the other should be Old-Style Rok. Oh, and next to one of the Rok's should be Roal.
Also, what do the elves name the islands.
In Orc/Black Speech "Rrok" means "Hold"...
Fha Jatagan Rrok = Great Scimitar Hold
Gijak Krahaun Rrok = Blood Coast Hold
The "Elf" land is "Ish" but they are not normal "Elves" at all...more on that later. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2018 : 21:35:42
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I didn't want to clog-up your other orc thread (the one with the alcohol), and this would be better-suited here anyway.
I think all Orcs should 'live' at double the human rate. That mean not only will an 8-year-old orc look like a 16-year-old (to a human), but also the pregnancies should reflect this - just 4½ months. This means the average adult orc should have only half the maturity of a human appearing around the same age (which makes a LOT of sense, when you think about it). It also means that 30 year old orc is VERY old by orc standards - like a sixty year old to humans (and most would not live that long - maybe some chiefs and shaman).
Furthermore, it means an orc of only 6 years of actual age will start having 'adult responsibilities' (training to be a warrior, etc), because they would be about the size of a human 12 year old. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2018 : 22:56:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I didn't want to clog-up your other orc thread (the one with the alcohol), and this would be better-suited here anyway.
I think all Orcs should 'live' at double the human rate. That mean not only will an 8-year-old orc look like a 16-year-old (to a human), but also the pregnancies should reflect this - just 4½ months. This means the average adult orc should have only half the maturity of a human appearing around the same age (which makes a LOT of sense, when you think about it). It also means that 30 year old orc is VERY old by orc standards - like a sixty year old to humans (and most would not live that long - maybe some chiefs and shaman).
Furthermore, it means an orc of only 6 years of actual age will start having 'adult responsibilities' (training to be a warrior, etc), because they would be about the size of a human 12 year old.
I'm not sure I like this idea... But I'm not aware of any particular reason it doesn't work.
I'm not up on 5E or half-orcs, in general -- how does their lifespan compare to humans?
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2018 : 23:57:24
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In my "World of Ark" setting orcs don't exist. I replaced them with another race that is capable of breeding with any other member...there are no "males" or "females" and they give birth to at least twins.
I picture Orcs also giving birth to multiple whelps. Infant mortality is probably high among their kind, and so having at least twins seems likely since they are a "fecund" lot.
I'm not too keen on them growing to adulthood quite as fast as what MT is saying...but damn near. The best example I have is that my 12 year old son is 5'7" now and more than capable of whipping the shit out of many adults I know. Not that he would...
For orcs, I picture young-adult males being the "low hit point end" of the group...not necessarily runts; but new warriors. The more HP an orc has the more experienced and powerful it has grown.
The lowest HP end (yep, I've had groups with 1 hp orcs) are maybe whelps that have been pulled into fighting because the group needs numbers. Such orcs might stay at the rear as archers...and this is likely why orc archers suck: they don't have much experience.
In THIS Orc-World:
I picture women literally breeding as quickly as possible. They force their whelps to be weaned as quickly as possible and then the little buggers have to learn to steal or gather food on their own. So a female might have twins (or more) as often as once a year with a high percentage of them being male.
Even if an orc tribe loses most of its male members, a single male can impregnate dozens of females all by himself...and the loss of most males wouldn't starve the females and whelps because they already gather/supply nearly 100% of the food.
I can see orc females being the whip-holders over slaves. Perfectly willing to "cull the herd" when meat is needed for the cooking pots. I can also see them mating forcefully with males of other species to replenish the population if even all the males were wiped out in a battle-field slaughter...but there would be little need as even a whelp-male could quickly step in to fulfill rutting needs.
When we look at the math, orcs replenish their numbers so quickly because the females DON'T fight...not that they can't. Orc lairs are continually filled with pregnant females...likely pregnant already when trying to ween their previous whelps.
I DO like the idea that their time of pregnancy is much shorter than humans. They aren't idiots, but their brains aren't the largest thin about them either...and the only reason humans have such a long gestation period is because of brain development.
On the other side of that, their babies probably walk much sooner than humans as well. Some animals are literally able to walk mere minutes after birth. Orc whelps probably take longer; but to use Gorillas as an example:
Orcs (Gorillas) start crawling at 2 months old, and by the time they are nine months old can cling to their mother while she travels...literally sleep while the mother goes about her day, clinging in their sleep. They are weaned by the time they are about 2 years old but aren't fully "pushed aside" until they are about 4 years old. Male Orcs mature at about 11 years old, while female orcs mature at about 8 years old. They live for about 35 years old in the "wild" but about 50 years in civilized situations (this means captivity for gorillas...but could be in less harsh conditions for orcs such as shamans and so on).
To me, this means that a whelp male lives pretty much "on his own" from age "late four years" until he is a full adult at about 11 or 12. During that time he spends most of his time rough-housing with other young whelps, trying to scavenge food and find himself weapons that are cast off by other orcs who get better weapons. The older males often "recruit" whelps to help with martial things such as cleaning gear, sharpening blades and so on. They likely also beat them around when in the way or doing the wrong thing teaching them how to evade blows and be quick on their feet. Orc fighting is quick and brutal, and likely the whelps experience some mortality but those that survive learn how to fight brutally.
Orc warriors learn by example most likely...not much time spent by elders but instead by being the "supply train" in battles where they operate as archers, loot carriers and a reserve when things get really tight.
More later... |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2018 : 19:45:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I didn't want to clog-up your other orc thread (the one with the alcohol), and this would be better-suited here anyway.
I think all Orcs should 'live' at double the human rate. That mean not only will an 8-year-old orc look like a 16-year-old (to a human), but also the pregnancies should reflect this - just 4½ months. This means the average adult orc should have only half the maturity of a human appearing around the same age (which makes a LOT of sense, when you think about it). It also means that 30 year old orc is VERY old by orc standards - like a sixty year old to humans (and most would not live that long - maybe some chiefs and shaman).
Furthermore, it means an orc of only 6 years of actual age will start having 'adult responsibilities' (training to be a warrior, etc), because they would be about the size of a human 12 year old.
I'm not sure I like this idea... But I'm not aware of any particular reason it doesn't work.
I'm not up on 5E or half-orcs, in general -- how does their lifespan compare to humans?
Not really sure.
I've just pictured it this way for years, because of their fecundity. Humans almost never see an orc 'baby', because they grow so fast they are almost immediately toddlers. Think of the more like animals (most baby animals learn to walk within an hour of being born). They are ALIENS - we need to stop thinking of all these other races as reskinned humans. Thats what lead to the 4e design team thinking that a 3' tall person (halfling) couldn't possibly do someone damage.
A chimp that small could tear someone apart.
Or a wolverine, etc. Now we have 4' tall halflings because the team who's job it was to create 'fantasy' couldn't wrap their minds around any other race but human. 
A 100 ton lizard can fly but a 3' tall person couldn't beat someone up? I should send a couple of angry midgets over to the WotC headquarters. 
Or better yet, a reptile can have boobies... but a halfling couldn't fight. And they wonder why most of us looked at the 4e design decisions as the utter mess they were.
Someone - I'm pretty sure Paizo - did an in-depth look at all the common 'monster' races, including Orcs, IIRC. It might be worth taking a look at. Then again, if you are designing something similar, you may want to avoid it. I tried finding a link, but I couldn't - I thought it was 'Races revisited', or some-such, but I see a bunch of others now with individual races (so maybe its out of print? They decided to just start doing one race per book? Welcome to WotC 2.0!) |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Jan 2018 19:46:47 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2018 : 21:33:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
The orcs (along with collective goblinkind) weren't placed on the Realms by the Creator races. So they could only have come from elsewhere.
The obvious questions are then "where is this place?" and "who were the Creator races there?". I stand by my previous answer, that the "homeworld" of the orcs is now a destroyed and defiled place, probably become merged within the essence of Acheron (on the Outer Planes), and their "Creator" was Gruumsh himself. Gruumsh arrived in the Realms from Acheron/Nishrek (along with the other surviving deities of the orc pantheon), at about the same time as Corellon arrived (along with his Seldarines) from Arvandor - the Realms mythologies explain that elves were formed from drops of Corellon's blood when he and Gruumsh battled for dominance, and they explain Gruumsh's method of claiming which parts of the world would be inhabited by orcs after all the other deities had already divided up the world for their own races (elves and dwarves and humans, etc). So, if both these tales are "true", then Gruumsh has been present in the Realms since before orcs, elves, or the other races walked the land ... and orcs were probably among these first races inhabiting the world.
Elaine Cunningham has said that the idea of Elves and Orcs being derived of the blood of gods was only a metaphor for the unending war between them and not the actual creation of them. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2018 : 05:11:53
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Thought I would share a little non-canon writing concerning Orcs from the Orc World having an interaction with Faerun...
HOW THE ORCS CAME TO BE
Much what True Orcs would have been like
EDIT:
I may change the year that the story is written to much earlier.
2nd EDIT:
Change made with the date to 510 DR
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The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
Edited by - Dalor Darden on 26 Jan 2018 16:53:27 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2018 : 20:45:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Or better yet, a reptile can have boobies... but a halfling couldn't fight. And they wonder why most of us looked at the 4e design decisions as the utter mess they were.
On that particular topic, we were discussing them "milking" other races and animals in order to make intoxicants. Given how we've been describing the possible inhabitants of this world (and wanting to stay away from dwarves, humans, halflings, goblins, etc..), there may be very few sentient mammalian races to do that to. In fact, this world may very well have very few mammals altogether (i.e. no cute bunnies, deer, horses, etc...). It is a design consideration to consider, since it IS only mammals that produce milk (reptiles don't, amphibians don't, fish don't, insects don't, birds don't, etc..). Also, as I was discussing before, other creatures lay eggs rather than live birth. Orcs may seem very "alien" to the other creatures of this particular world (granted if you have elves and giants on those islands, they'll also be "live birthers", so the orcs won't be unique). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 26 Jan 2018 20:48:12 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2018 : 12:45:02
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Explain the breasts as being formed from different musculature in male and female torsos.
Or explain the breasts as an odd vestigial throwback, or as the result of interbreeding with other (breasty) races.
Not really a valid explanation in terms of real world anatomy and biology ... but then, the presence of orcs (and elves and dwarves) alongside humans has no valid explanation either.
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[/Ayrik] |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2018 : 00:08:29
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I came to the conclusion that even after the Water Wars that would have drained a large amount of the worlds water, the Orcs might have been interested in "NEW LAND" that lay under the waters.
We do not have a race of Orcs under water...it seems Tolkien's legacy remains in that Orcs don't like the stuff much.
With that, to conquer the races UNDER the water, the Orcs only need to take the water away. This would also give them rich lands to plunder then of resources to continue waging war.
Thoughts? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2018 : 01:59:55
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I thought we had some - there's even a picture of one in the color-section of the SoFS sourcebook.
But I was thinking of Koalinth, and even though they look like orcs, they are technically sea-Hobgoblins. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 31 Jan 2018 02:03:17 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2018 : 03:29:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I came to the conclusion that even after the Water Wars that would have drained a large amount of the worlds water, the Orcs might have been interested in "NEW LAND" that lay under the waters.
We do not have a race of Orcs under water...it seems Tolkien's legacy remains in that Orcs don't like the stuff much.
With that, to conquer the races UNDER the water, the Orcs only need to take the water away. This would also give them rich lands to plunder then of resources to continue waging war.
Thoughts?
Hmmm, I'd recommend staying away from this. In fact, maybe those orcs who get too close to the water find their villages getting sacked in the middle of the night by Takos or crabmen or something else similar that's "not a sahuagin or other very humanoid fish man".... or maybe some kind of clear ooze, such that they wake up in the morning and find dead dissolved orc mess. Maybe this gives them a somewhat superstitious fear of water. Thus, making those elves on the islands more safe (and less likely to leave home). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 31 Jan 2018 03:31:01 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2018 : 03:35:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I thought we had some - there's even a picture of one in the color-section of the SoFS sourcebook.
But I was thinking of Koalinth, and even though they look like orcs, they are technically sea-Hobgoblins.
I REALLY liked how Ed tried to make all of them "Goblins" and thus related. For me it goes:
Kobold < Goblin < Orc < Hobgoblin
Which in Middle-Earth would be more like:
Snaga < Moria Orc < Mordor Orc < Uruk-hai
In fact, Tolkien himself wrote in "The Hobbit" as Gandalf talked about the bigger Hobgoblin's of Wilderland which were larger than other orcs.
So I may start drifting back to the idea that "Orcs" in the Orc World will be:
1/2 HD Slaves (Kobolds), 1-1 HD Orclings (Goblins/Moria Orcs), 1 HD Orcs (typical Orc), 1+1 HD Warrior Elite (Uruk-hai/Hobgoblins)
In the original OGB there was no mention of "Mountain Orcs" or "Gray Orcs" but just Goblins.
I think we could say those races can intermix for breeding purposes rather easily. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
Edited by - Dalor Darden on 31 Jan 2018 03:37:15 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2018 : 04:33:31
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So maybe Hobgoblins are closer to the 'true form' (Fey)? I always assumed hobs were a hybrid, but maybe it would be better to spin them as the 'superior Orcs' (Goblinoids). Many Fey races are 'furry', and hobgoblins stand out as being one of the few hairy goblinoids (although Bugbears have them beat in that regard... never liked Bugbears).
Oh, and I'm not a big fan of 'water orcs' either*, since we have 'water-everything else'. I think those Koalinth will do just fine.
*See Sleyvas? We agree on stuff!  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2018 : 13:19:36
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Actually, I prefer to keep goblins, hobgoblins, bugbears, as their own race line. In my view they are the "leaner, more athletic evil humanoid". Now humans, being the bigots that they are, may lump them all together under a term of "goblinoid" with orcs, basically to represent any mammalian, generally smoothskinned kind of being that they don't like. Just like humans also have the bigoted term "demi-human".
Now, orcs, orogs, ogres.... yeah, maybe relations. Your idea of "orclings" has merit too, because I feel like there should be lots of orcs that AREN'T big hulking brutes. They're the ones who get pushed to go out and chop wood, go fishing, set out and check hunting traps, etc... while the bigger ones are back at camp making new babies. And when times are lean, an orcling may get fed to the boars that are being kept for slaughter to fatten them up (you know if he's sick, or just annoying). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 31 Jan 2018 13:26:42 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2018 : 13:22:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So maybe Hobgoblins are closer to the 'true form' (Fey)? I always assumed hobs were a hybrid, but maybe it would be better to spin them as the 'superior Orcs' (Goblinoids). Many Fey races are 'furry', and hobgoblins stand out as being one of the few hairy goblinoids (although Bugbears have them beat in that regard... never liked Bugbears).
Oh, and I'm not a big fan of 'water orcs' either*, since we have 'water-everything else'. I think those Koalinth will do just fine.
*See Sleyvas? We agree on stuff!
Lol, we more often do than don't, its just what direction to push a vision forward that we diverge on occasion.
Oh, and on the subject of the "things in the water".... I'm betting the things in the water... after the water wars... DON'T LIKE THE THINGS ON THE LAND. In fact, maybe they put up with the elves on the islands because they were preaching how "evil" the water wars were, but anyone else that approaches the ocean... be careful. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2018 : 04:21:31
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Yes, I agree with you from a lore stand-point, it would be better to say the orcs were the 'originals' (or rather, were the earliest group to diverge form the originals), and goblinoids were a separate thing. However, the two groups have been connected for a very long time, and Hobgoblins ARE the superior branch, thus my line of reasoning.
That chart I did doesn't really convey my thinking so well
There was place called the Feywild. I don't want to go into all I have about that, so I am only going to address the pertinent bits. When first 'discovered' it was like most other planes in the First World, and little bits of plane-energy broke off and became their own thing. Each Proto-plane had its own personality and quirks (must... resist... speculation...). In the Feywild these manifested as Wiil-O-Wisps, and they were of various sizes and power. Corellon comes along and blows on them (or whatever) and creates the Sidhe - the first fey (True Fey, whatever). Others attached themselves to things and geographic features - like tree, rocks, or waterfalls, etc - and became 'lesser fey' - these are 'the Wee Folk'. The 'fairies' (although technically, the Sidhe can also be considered 'Fairies'). Some were quite tiny - Sprites - and others were larger, and usually somewhat hairy (Urchins).
UGH! I had to edit everything out. I can't help myself... it was just so LOOOONG.
So the fey become 'good' and 'bad' (its really not as simple as all that, but I don't want to start over with a page-long explanation for the difference between 'seelie' and 'Unseelie'. So now I am picturing the Eladrin's opposite being the Hobgoblins - originally majestic, intelligent creatures that enjoyed looking abit more... primal.. then other Eladrin.
Then the Dawn War happened and the nature of the universe changed. Children of Eladrin born 'in the planes' became elves, over time. This is called 'the lessening' among planer scholars, but Fey sages named it 'the Dwindling'. the longer Fey spent in the Prime Material, the more they were infected with entropy - something that never existed in the First World. They would slowly loose their Fey-like qualities, and their life-spans would grow shorter with each generation (you'll note Elves prefer to keep their generations far apart, separated by centuries - thats what helps keep them so long-lived, whereas drow breed almost as quickly as humans, to make up for their losses, thus, they have very short life-spans compared to other elves). The Unseelie Fey that left Faerie with Gruumsh and 'hid in the dark places of the world' also bred like crazy, quickly losing all their fey attributes. The became the orcs.
The Unseelie small fey - the sprites and urchins - were called goblyns by the other fey. As they, too, spread outward from faerie into the mortal worlds, they became the goblins, and a hundred other offshoots.
So I guess I would have to say Hobgoblins stayed in the feywild as long as they could, increasing their numbers. One small group may have tied to 'venture out' into the prime worlds, and those mixed with others and quickly lost their way, becoming the 'Bugbears' (some say it was the gorillabears, which why we don't really have gorillabears in D&D anymore). They may have even allied with the other Fey in the feywild fro a time, helping to figh-off the fomorian advances. Eventually, though, they came to the Prime Material as well.
Unknown to everyone save the Hobgoblins, they consider themselves one unified 'kingdom', and should be considered the only fully pan-spheirc 'state' in existence. Not only do a system of scouts travel from Hobgoblin to hobgoblin group on each world, the main group (they have an established hierarchy) communicates with others via the feywild, so that ALL hobgoblins are constantly working toward common goals. This may be one of the 'deepest secrets' of the D&Dverse.
On (D&D) Earth, they where special rings that make them appear as humans.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2018 : 04:59:57
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quote:
... an orc of only 6 years of actual age will start having 'adult responsibilities' (training to be a warrior, etc), because they would be about the size of a human 12 year old.
Human children begin schooling by age 6, if not earlier. Then spend a big chunk of their lives learning all the basic knowledge and skills they'll need to function as adults within human society. In pre-industrial and pre-literate human societies they learned (worked) the family farm/trade or they apprenticed (worked) at some other craft ... or they were basically indentured (if not actually enslaved) as labourers in some other profession ... or they were eventually conscripted into some local army or navy ... or they were cast out to become beggars, urchins, thieves, conmen, street thugs, bandits, and other undesirables. Many itinerant bards and adventurers might achieve fame and fortune but have the most humble and embarrassing beginnings.
Orc society is basically about survival and warfare. So it seems reasonable that orc children would join many hunting/war parties, starting off at the lowest positions with the dirtiest work but gradually gaining in skills until they nearly equal (and begin preparing themselves to challenge) their "teachers" by the time they reach adolescence. I expect orc "education" would be a brutal experience with many "failures" (casualties) not reaching their "graduation". Orc "exams" might involve combat against increasingly dangerous opponents (whatever beasts or races they hunt, captured enemies, even their own peers). Orcs probably "grow up" (reach adult size) at a comparatively early age.
Hobs and gobs tend to have slightly more sophisticated social interactions, mere brawn and intimidation might be augmented with treachery and snivelling, whatever skillset happens to work best for each individual and each situation. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 01 Feb 2018 05:11:57 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2018 : 22:43:27
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The Losel is a baboon-Orc hybrid (I may use those in Katashaka), but I just now came across the Varag, another type of 'feral' orc from 3e's Monster Manual 4 (I go looking for some Hobgoblins and just find ore Orcs LOL).
I've come to the conclusion that Maglubiyet must have been an archfey at one point (which makes sense - he was a god for some time, and now he's back to just being an exarch). Goblins are just the Unseelie small fey, and that means the Hobgobblin, or 'High Goblyn' is just the Unseeleie version of the larger fey (Eladrin). And Elves are to orcs, which all makes perfect sense (because it doesn't make sense to have the Orcs = Fey, tier-wise).
I really hated the idea that 'orcs didn't come first', because of Gruumsh, but I'm really starting to embrace the hobs as closer to the progenitor group (it really does make more sense). Of course, Orcs would be loathe to admit this, and Hobgoblins wouldn't really care. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 Feb 2018 22:50:53 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2019 : 21:54:01
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Listening to the Podcast "Mages and Sages" I heard it from Ed's own lips that the Mountain Orcs and Grey Orcs likely came from different worlds.
edit: glad I didn't write this book only to be undone by one sentence  |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
Edited by - Dalor Darden on 15 Mar 2019 22:38:59 |
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The Orc World
