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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Jan 2018 : 09:03:05
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I'm going to be compiling a list of information (open to discussion of course...) about the world the Gray Orcs came from.
It looks like ALL orcs (edit: of Faerun...not all the multi-verse) can come from this world according to what I've found so far (as in there may be all sorts there and not just Gray Orcs).
The North wasn’t the only region of Faerûn destined to feel the savage claws of the orcs. In –1081 DR, a band of rebellious Mulhorandi wizards opened a portal to the orcs’ homeworld, and unleashed a massive horde of the creatures on the world several years later.
So this ties both the Mountain Orcs (from The North) to the Gray Orcs...all coming from the same world.
The Mountain Orcs remained "primitive" so long in the Forgotten Realms I think because they were dominated by other races. The first migration of orcs into Faerûn occurred many thousands of years ago, through portals built by one of the creator races. For thousands of years after they first migrated to Toril, the orcs were little more than feral savages too busy fighting and warring among themselves to warrant the attention of the great elven nations. This age of true savagery among the orcs of Faerûn is believed to have lasted for well over fifteen thousand years
Meanwhile on their homeworld the orcs there evolved into:
...opened a fateful portal to a savage world dominated by empires of fanatically religious orcs.
They had Empires...denoting a level of civilization that orcs in the Forgotten Realms were never able to obtain. Their power was such that:
The Orcgate Wars began in –1076 DR and quickly escalated into a war of devastating proportions. Orc warriors slew thousands upon thousands, but the most terrible aspect of this army was its magical might. These orcs were much more fanatical than those of the North, and their clerics had developed amazingly powerful and deadly spells.
This tells me that what is LEFT of the Grey Orcs are a pale shadow to what came through the Portal from their world...and what is there is now thousands of years more advanced than when the Orcgate Wars happened!
That's all I have for right now...but it makes me wonder:
If the Gray Orcs came from their world in –1076 DR; what might their world be like at 2,500+ years later?
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The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
Edited by - Dalor Darden on 09 Jan 2018 16:31:03
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2018 : 10:43:46
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Why do you say orcs remained "primitive" because they were "dominated by other races"?
They did it to themselves. Savage, hard, brutal lifestyles perpetuated by their instincts, their leaders, their culture, their values, their religion. They are who and what they are because it is who and what they strive to be.
Some would say orcs were "made" to be exactly as they are, strong enough to take what is theirs from the weak.
Others would say orcs "evolved" instead, a race of hardened survivors forged through countless ages of conflict.
Orcs are "primitive" in comparison to the more civilized races, to be sure, but quite adept at the manufacture of implements for war; orcs were often described in old AD&D materials as being expert at mining and metalcraft, indeed they competed directly with dwarves and sometimes subjugated kobolds or goblins to do their dirty labour, although to orcs these crafts were not pursued on their own merits but were instead only meaningful in the "applied" context of creating advantages in war, to an orc a thing is only "beautiful" if it can hurt or kill or destroy very cruelly or very efficiently. Orcs were once noted for being masterfully devious, treacherous, and cunning, naturally talented tacticians - filled with inhuman malice, relentless tenacity, cold patience, and hot rage, even though orcs were considered less intelligent overall in comparison to other races. But recall the 1E half-orc assassins (and assassin/multi-classes)! Orcs were infamously creative in producing complex traps and ambushes which slew many a wary elf or dwarf - but these instinctive/intuitive attributes seem to have been forgotten by orc-lovers (and orc-haters) over time as brainlessly raw thuggish orcish brutality has been emphasized and exaggerated. So yes, the orcs are "primitive" insofar as they are disinclined to farm or build cities or monuments or works of art and learning - but orcs do possess a "civilization" and, measured by its own (orcish) values, it is a strong and powerful and proud civilization which thrives and prevails. You cannot measure orcish civilization by human values, just as you cannot measure human civilization by elven values.
Really, the only thing keeping orcs "down" is other orcs. They are invariably tribal and invariably hostile to those outside their own families, tribes, clans, or nations. Any place inhabited by orcs has experienced the "horde" of unstoppable orcs which attempts to expand into new territories once orc populations grow too large. Orcs may be a minority in the Realms - just another race among many - but they have surely completely overrun and dominated other worlds. (And is it then any wonder why elves are so apprehensive after observing similar behaviours in humans?)
Gygax based his orcs on a combination of generic "Brothers Grimm" pagan mythology and on Tolkien's orcs. While the nature and origins of Tolkien's orcs are somewhat contradictory - he presented differing "origins" for his orcs as his writings changed over time - but they did consistently appear to be a race much younger than elves, nearly as old as dwarves, and somewhat older than humans.
I don't recall any particular reference to an orc homeworld. Orcs, like humans, appear so widespread across worlds and planes that they could have any number of "home" worlds, even any number of separate places which all appear to be their true "origin". For all we know, Mulhorandi wizards could've easily imported orcs to Toril from Oerth. I would speculate that the "origin" of orcs would be part of what we know as the plane of Acheron, Gruumsh's domain, which (like all planes) continually absorbs entire realms and worlds and dimensions from elsewhere into itself. Discovering the truth might be complicated by the fact that while orcs have shamans and may even remember the details of great battles or the genealogies of great war chiefs, they are even worse than humans when it comes to unbiased recording (or revising records of) history.
If anything, I would think the "homeworld" of the orcs has been long lost and forgotten even in orcish racial memory. Likely consumed and destroyed by the orcs themselves. It would explain their nomadic, tribal, aggressive nature; their territorial, possessive, competitive nature; their utter lack of concern in taking or consuming whatever they can, in destroying or polluting whatever they cannot. The temperament and psychology of orcs seems largely uniform regardless of their tribe or the world they live on, it suggests orcs all think the same way no matter what their environment.
Spacefaring orcs are scro ("backwards-orcs" goes the bad Spelljammer joke), and though they vehemently declare their species and identity is dramatically different from their mudball orc cousins - a sentiment these mudball orcs would surely reciprocate if they weren't entirely ignorant of the scro - they are otherwise interchangeable with common orcs in all ways (including general intelligence). Except that the scro have mastered spelljamming, space travel, navigation, and other complex things which require a fairly developed intellect and some degree of magical/technological accomplishment.
Planescape lore briefly mentions that legions of orcs (led by orc-blooded tieflings or cambions) have been used as soldiers in the Blood War in countless campaigns over many millennia. I can't recall the source (and it may be a non-canon Bioware game?) but I do recall a reference to an orc-cambion war leader whose unstoppable ferocity, savagery, sadism, and passion for battle inspired fear and awe from his own baatezu superiors.
Orcs are and have "always been" a feature in every major (A)D&D setting. Except Krynn, where they are conspicuously absent because of the workings of the gods. And Athas, where they were apparently exterminated ages ago in massive genocidal wars.
I've never found the entire Many Arrows reformed orcs palatable, personally. Orcs are iconic monsters, the "bogeyman", human-like representations of the darkest, ugliest, basest and most bestial aspects of human nature. I've long argued that if Wizbro keeps humanizing all the monsters then the day will come that there are no more monsters left to kill ... and what then, heroic PCs will have to start killing other humans? Some of the early-2E Al-Qadim material also presented orcs in a curious light, describing them as being "just another" race in Zakhara's cosmopolitan/egalitarian society, a place where an elf and an orc and a dwarf and a human and a djinn could all haggle in the market or kneel and pray side by side without any thought at all towards racial antipathies. Again, I'm of the opinion that while this was a noble and enlightened experiment, it is not something which truly belongs in D&D or Realmslore, I maintain the opinion that it is necessary to dehumanize orcs (and other monsters) to keep things "right". Still, I offer these comments for the sake of completeness in regards to the treatments of orcs in Realmslore. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 06 Jan 2018 15:33:18 |
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Starshade
Learned Scribe
Norway
279 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2018 : 13:58:20
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Ayrik: A wery good post!
Dalor: The creative forces in D&D known as "gods" who wery actively got agendas as altering, modifying and improving aspects, is one of the few differences between D&D and real life (I assume here, religious views put aside; any RL power(s) lets us have free will, and don't alter our species in the shorter timespans of 1000 - 10 000 years). Outside that...
I won't use real life stoneage or iron age as example, that's too simple. I'll use USA! Why don't America have a base on mars? Why haven't they built cities in space? The answer is, probably some of the same as why Mountain Orcs don't progress. No one really wants to go settle Mars; it's bad, 50% of astronauts will die in transit, many colonies will fail, starvation, mental issue will surface, going there would be much worse than anything current generation have ever faced, maybe equal the first humans going to Siberia hunting mammoths in challenge. Could be, we only progress in some ways, only if we face total extinction, or is severely challenged.
In short: The homeplanet of the Orc, probably would be a fun campaign setting! Could be darker than both Ravenloft and Dark Sun even  |
Edited by - Starshade on 06 Jan 2018 13:59:07 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2018 : 16:03:19
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I imagine that the "homeworld" of the orcs, if it exists, is only a post-apocalyptic barren wasteland. Destroyed by the engines of countless wars waged across countless generations. Seas of wind-scorched dust drifting across the massive ruins of rusted iron structures and machinery, surrounded by sickening blankets of poisonous smog and stagnant pools of oil-scummed filthy water, a world entirely consumed and depleted by the making of the very things which were used to destroyed it. Perhaps massive fields containing the bleached and dessicated bones of millions of orcs are sometimes revealed. Perhaps Gruumsh's own brethren lay entombed and dormant beneath sand eternally slickened red under clouds of corrosive blood-soaked rain. Perhaps the ghosts of orcish legions and armies and nations remain cursed to eternally wage their unending ethereal wars.
I basically imagine the world Wall-E the robot lives on. Without any plants. Without even any cockroaches. After British soccer fans have rioted and after the Soviet Army has done some nuclear testing. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 06 Jan 2018 16:04:19 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2018 : 16:15:37
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The fact that that one quote says "a savage world dominated by empires of fanatically religious orcs" and doesn't explicitly refer to the orc homeworld, as prior quotes did, indicates to me that it was a different world altogether. With orcs all over the cosmos, it's obvious that more than one group left their homeworld.
And while the word "empires" does indicate established, stable nation-states, it doesn't mean that the orcs created these empires. Perhaps they were integrated into and eventually dominated the society that built them. Or perhaps the empires were nothing more than large affiliations of allied tribe. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2018 : 16:22:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Spacefaring orcs are scro ("backwards-orcs" goes the bad Spelljammer joke), and though they vehemently declare their species and identity is dramatically different from their mudball orc cousins - a sentiment these mudball orcs would surely reciprocate if they weren't entirely ignorant of the scro - they are otherwise interchangeable with common orcs in all ways (including general intelligence). Except that the scro have mastered spelljamming, space travel, navigation, and other complex things which require a fairly developed intellect and some degree of magical/technological accomplishment.
As a huge fan of scro, I'd argue that they are not interchangeable with orcs. Orcs are known for forming huge hordes and being a threat based on their numbers, while the scro rely on true military prowess and discipline. In fact, it's that discipline that most differentiates orcs and scro.
Orcs are the Incredible Hulk -- "Hulk smash!" The scro are Iron Man -- using their brains to build the tools they fight you with, and applying logic and reason to how they use them. Both can be effective combat tactics, depending on the scenario -- but they are certainly not the same.
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 06 Jan 2018 16:23:49 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2018 : 16:45:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I'm going to be compiling a list of information (open to discussion of course...) about the world the Gray Orcs came from.
It looks like ALL orcs can come from this world according to what I've found so far (as in there may be all sorts there and not just Gray Orcs).
The North wasn’t the only region of Faerûn destined to feel the savage claws of the orcs. In –1081 DR, a band of rebellious Mulhorandi wizards opened a portal to the orcs’ homeworld, and unleashed a massive horde of the creatures on the world several years later.
So this ties both the Mountain Orcs (from The North) to the Gray Orcs...all coming from the same world.
The Mountain Orcs remained "primitive" so long in the Forgotten Realms I think because they were dominated by other races. The first migration of orcs into Faerûn occurred many thousands of years ago, through portals built by one of the creator races. For thousands of years after they first migrated to Toril, the orcs were little more than feral savages too busy fighting and warring among themselves to warrant the attention of the great elven nations. This age of true savagery among the orcs of Faerûn is believed to have lasted for well over fifteen thousand years
Meanwhile on their homeworld the orcs there evolved into:
...opened a fateful portal to a savage world dominated by empires of fanatically religious orcs.
They had Empires...denoting a level of civilization that orcs in the Forgotten Realms were never able to obtain. Their power was such that:
The Orcgate Wars began in –1076 DR and quickly escalated into a war of devastating proportions. Orc warriors slew thousands upon thousands, but the most terrible aspect of this army was its magical might. These orcs were much more fanatical than those of the North, and their clerics had developed amazingly powerful and deadly spells.
This tells me that what is LEFT of the Grey Orcs are a pale shadow to what came through the Portal from their world...and what is there is now thousands of years more advanced than when the Orcgate Wars happened!
That's all I have for right now...but it makes me wonder:
If the Gray Orcs came from their world in –1076 DR; what might their world be like at 2,500+ years later?
No, the statement for -1081 DR does NOT tie the Mountain Orcs (from the North) to the Gray Orcs as all coming from the same world. However, this earlier statement in Races of Faerun (some of which you also post), which is that same source DOES heavily hint that the portals that the Mountain Orcs came through and the portals that the Gray Orcs came through are the same or at least linked. I'm presenting it in continuity to help improve your argument and also lead into something else.
The first migration of orcs into Faerûn occurred many thousands of years ago, through portals built by one of the creator races. For thousands of years after they first migrated to Toril, the orcs were little more than feral savages too busy fighting and warring among themselves to warrant the attention of the great elven nations. This age of true savagery among the orcs of Faerûn is believed to have lasted for well over fifteen thousand years. It wasn’t until –3800 DR that the orcs of the North finally coalesced into actual tribes.
So, this would indicate that the first orcs arrived in Toril some time BEFORE -18800 DR, but PROBABLY after -19800 DR. So, this would have been right around the time that the elves were first forming up their nations (right around the time of the formation of Miyeritar, though I wouldn't put any linkage between the two entities). This is BEFORE the elven sundering as well, and since there are orcs in Abeir, I would posit that the Elven Sundering somehow used some of the mechanisms of the original twinning of the worlds, and that's how orcs appeared on Abeir. I would also wonder if it wasn't the appearance of these orcs that possibly caused the elves to perform the Elven Sundering and creation of Evermeet?
So, the question that pops in my head becomes, was the creation of Evermeet meant ALSO to send the populations of orcs to Abeir? Were the ancient elves who figured out how to perform the sundering aware of Abeir? Thus, on Abeir is there a large orc population on some continent somewhere, and were there very few orcs left on Toril, and thus it took them thousands of years to breed enough to become a threat again (because maybe the elves made it a goal to keep their numbers down by hunting orcs.... kind of like the eldreth Veluuthra, but for orcs). This might be a source for the ancestral hatred between the two races.
Now, let's throw in something else from GHotR and note it with some things we've been talking about with the weave.
From GHotR page 11
By invoking the Ever’Sakkatien to concentrate the Weave in a single location, our ancestors might inadvertently have lessened the strength of the Weave elsewhere in this world, producing consequences that continue to haunt us today. We know that the Weave’s strength is not uniform, and that this variance apparently produces nodes of power, faerzress, dead magic zones, and wild magic zones—all of which are curiously absent from our fair shores. Might this situation not be an unintended consequence of the Ever’Sakkatien? Those among us who have walked the forests of Faerûn have noticed the difference between the Green Isle and the far shores when attempting to employ the Arselu’Tel’Quess—or even simply enter reverie. Was it always so, or did our ancestors’ use of the Ever’Sakkatien produce this effect?
So, one of the things this makes me wonder is also, did the Elves TAKE Primordials from Abeir that were asleep and entrap them in Evermeet, and are they using these beings to empower Evermeets defenses. Of course, it could also be that Evermeet is from the Feywild, and the Feywild is innately even more magical than the Prime Material. However, given what we know about Evermeet going back to the Feywild, but some kind of "not as magical" version appearing on Toril around the time that Laerakond appeared (and next to Laerakond mind you)... I think this mystery is a little deeper than just "its from the Feywild".
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2018 : 17:10:06
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In the first thing you quoted you make a huge leap/assumption - that because something was mentioned in the same sentence, it could have come from there, If anything, I get the exact opposite gist from that quote (because it firmly separates one group from the other, semantically).
Red orcs, Black orcs, brown orcs, etc... nothing scarier then the Pink Orcs of the Planet Petunia. Have you ever seen a crazed orc dervish swirling around its Tutu? I have... and I'll never be the same again. There are some things even the bravest of souls were never meant to experience.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
As a huge fan of scro, I'd argue that they are not interchangeable with orcs. Orcs are known for forming huge hordes and being a threat based on their numbers, while the scro rely on true military prowess and discipline. In fact, it's that discipline that most differentiates orcs and scro.
Orcs are the Incredible Hulk -- "Hulk smash!" The scro are Iron Man -- using their brains to build the tools they fight you with, and applying logic and reason to how they use them. Both can be effective combat tactics, depending on the scenario -- but they are certainly not the same.
See, I get the same vibe Dalor does. Just because a race have developed different (superior) tactics doesn't make them a different type of creature.
NOW, if you want a truly superior orcish race, you need look no further than the Sharakim, from Races of Destiny - a truly majestic and powerful creature. 
We also have the peaceful (docile?) Ondonti, who dwell to the north of the Moonsea region. They've actually been classed 'fey' in old 2e lore. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 06 Jan 2018 17:12:24 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2018 : 17:35:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The fact that that one quote says "a savage world dominated by empires of fanatically religious orcs" and doesn't explicitly refer to the orc homeworld, as prior quotes did, indicates to me that it was a different world altogether. With orcs all over the cosmos, it's obvious that more than one group left their homeworld.
And while the word "empires" does indicate established, stable nation-states, it doesn't mean that the orcs created these empires. Perhaps they were integrated into and eventually dominated the society that built them. Or perhaps the empires were nothing more than large affiliations of allied tribe.
Bear in mind, we may be talking 17,000 years between the two crossings. The early crossing may haven say been opened by Sarrukh or Batrachi in hopes that the orcs would come and kill the elves who were becoming a numerous problem.
BTW, one of the things we've been talking about is the portal network from the Council Hills to Ashanath and the city of Shandaular. We were then linking said portal network to other places, such as possibly the mucklestones, the Llewyrrwood (Neverwinter Wood), the Moonshaes, possibly the Ajmer Forest in Durpar, etc.... because of the arrivals of the Rus and the Illuskans that form the Arkaiun.
So, when were the orcgates opened? -1081 DR. When were the orcgate wars? -1076 DR to -1069 DR. When did a portal get opened between Ashanath and Council Hills to form the city of Shandaular? In -1064 DR. I submit the concept that the Orcgate and the Portal in Ashanath are the SAME portal. Further, I'll submit that the link to council hills was "discovered" by Nar Humans because the orcs had at some point opened the orcgate on the south side of Unther (possibly in the middle of the Untheric empire at the time). Maybe this precipitated a surprise attack by the orcs and their deities that caught the Untheric gods by surprise leading to their demise. Furthermore.... that's right near Okoth and Azulduth... we know Tiamat was involved in that long ago fight as well, and we know Sarrukh are there. Did the Sarrukh of Okoth at one point follow Tiamat (and or possibly Set as well) during the orcgate wars?
So essentially, someone finally closes the orcgate in -1069 DR, but Nar humans continue to study it, only to open it in -1064 DR and establish their sister city down in the Council Hills area.
Now, let's throw another twist into this from GHotR
955 DR Year of the Telltale Candle
Orcgates Affair: The mages of the Covenant [797, 976] gather a great, armed host from the human settlements of the North to confront an orc horde massing in the Spine of the World. In a move known as the Orcgates Affair, the Red Wizards [934, 976] of Thay magically transport the horde far to the south by means of great portals. The North is spared much devastation, and the failure of the orcs to appear deals a significant blow to the influence and prestige of the Covenant.
976 DR Year of the Slaying Spells
Upon discovering that the Red Wizards [955, 1081] of Thay were responsible for the Orcgates Affair, the Covenant [955, 1063] begins to work subtly against the mages from the east.
1081 DR Year of the Disastrous Bauble
Another one of the Four Founders of the Covenant [1063, 1101] dies when the Red Wizards [976, 1101] of Thay kill Aganazzar [673] in their assault on the School of Wizardry in Neverwinter. By year’s end, the two groups are engaged in a titanic wizardwar.
So, IF the elven portal network that we've said might exist AND the Orcgates ARE the same portal network... the red wizards may have been using it for this work against the Covenant. I will also note that the Covenant was apparently at work up near Neverwinter... and thus Neverwinter wood/Llewyrrwood... and thus near one of these portals. So an obvious next question that comes from this is "if the red wizards used the portal in the Llewyrrwood to send a horde of orcs to the south... where did they send them?". The answer to this could indicate other nodes in the network (or perhaps they came out in Ashanath, or the mucklestones, or the council hills, etc...). Did the red wizard actually capture/enslave these orcs as they came out through said portal (I actually ask this because we don't necessarily have some accounting of orcs running amok in the south after this)?
So, taking ALL of this into account... maybe another thing we can speculate on is why would this portal network have a connection to this particular world of orcs? Maybe its because SOME of the elves came to Toril fleeing from the orcs of this world? Maybe the elf orc enmity stretches even further back.
I'll even further note that the Nars suddenly worshipped Orcus after the orcgate wars. To my mind, Orcus very much looks like a being who could have bred a variation of orcs, though he's usually shown with red skin. To take this further, lets MIX a little lore from Warcraft and FR (which I never played Warcraft so someone can correct me if I get this wrong... I was into EQ2). The Thayans at some point created two new breeds of orcs, calling them "Neo-Orogs", and these breeds were either red skinned or dark-green to deep black skinned. The Thayans also learned a ritual to create other kinds of orcs, being "blooded ones", who were bathed in some special alchemical bath as youths and also incorporating blood. Perhaps these fanatical orcs were created using say water tainted by a demoncyst (like the stuff coming out of the Thaymount to surround the city of Eltabbar) and the blood ritual piece of this is a sacrament to Orcus or some other demon lord to curse the child but make it stronger. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 06 Jan 2018 18:10:08 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2018 : 17:41:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
In the first thing you quoted you make a huge leap/assumption - that because something was mentioned in the same sentence, it could have come from there, If anything, I get the exact opposite gist from that quote (because it firmly separates one group from the other, semantically).
Red orcs, Black orcs, brown orcs, etc... nothing scarier then the Pink Orcs of the Planet Petunia. Have you ever seen a crazed orc dervish swirling around its Tutu? I have... and I'll never be the same again. There are some things even the bravest of souls were never meant to experience.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
As a huge fan of scro, I'd argue that they are not interchangeable with orcs. Orcs are known for forming huge hordes and being a threat based on their numbers, while the scro rely on true military prowess and discipline. In fact, it's that discipline that most differentiates orcs and scro.
Orcs are the Incredible Hulk -- "Hulk smash!" The scro are Iron Man -- using their brains to build the tools they fight you with, and applying logic and reason to how they use them. Both can be effective combat tactics, depending on the scenario -- but they are certainly not the same.
See, I get the same vibe Dalor does. Just because a race have developed different (superior) tactics doesn't make them a different type of creature.
How about a difference between size, hit dice, magic resistance, intelligence *and* society? Scro are larger, tougher, smarter, and more resistant to magic than orcs are -- it's in their basic stats. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
572 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2018 : 19:22:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
See, I get the same vibe Dalor does. Just because a race have developed different (superior) tactics doesn't make them a different type of creature.
How about a difference between size, hit dice, magic resistance, intelligence *and* society? Scro are larger, tougher, smarter, and more resistant to magic than orcs are -- it's in their basic stats.
As Wooly said, they're canonically a different creature. They're also *not* the only orcs in space. They're out there (and they created the Scorpion ship); but Scro see themselves as better and refuse to work with normal orcs (whereas they'll employ but not work for kobolds, goblins, ogres, etc.). They could also be mages in 2nd Edition, whereas normal orcs could not; while this difference was eliminated in later editions, it was a *very* important distinction in 2e.
Scro as a race are only around 300 years old, and they do have a specific homeworld, named for their demipower patron, who they believe elevated them above normal orcs after they settled the world at the end of the first Unhuman War. You're still probably far more likely to encounter normal orcs in space than scro.
Jeff |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2018 : 21:01:20
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I did not know these things. I'd mistakenly thought scro were essentially just space-savvy orcs, much as Gith Pirates are essentially just space-savvy Githyanki.
But yes, scro and orcs have more than differences in fluff and costume, they have different stats and hit dice and intelligence and abilities. And yes, being able (or being unable) to become a mage is a very important distinction in 2E rules, particularly in the Spelljammer setting (where only mages can operate most spelljamming helms). Definitely a different species, not merely another clade.
All that being said, the nature of the scro in Spelljammer doesn't really have much impact on the nature of orcs in the Realms. The don't interact, and if they share any history at all then it would be at least 300 years ago. Unless their demipower patron was somehow also involved long ago in the Mulhorandi magics which are said to have imported orcs? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2018 : 23:08:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I did not know these things. I'd mistakenly thought scro were essentially just space-savvy orcs, much as Gith Pirates are essentially just space-savvy Githyanki.
But yes, scro and orcs have more than differences in fluff and costume, they have different stats and hit dice and intelligence and abilities. And yes, being able (or being unable) to become a mage is a very important distinction in 2E rules, particularly in the Spelljammer setting (where only mages can operate most spelljamming helms). Definitely a different species, not merely another clade.
All that being said, the nature of the scro in Spelljammer doesn't really have much impact on the nature of orcs in the Realms. The don't interact, and if they share any history at all then it would be at least 300 years ago. Unless their demipower patron was somehow also involved long ago in the Mulhorandi magics which are said to have imported orcs?
I don't know of any canonical references to scro in Realmspace, though I personally have imported at least one.
(Also, Obould seems a lot more like a scro than an orc, to me. Just sayin'.) |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 06 Jan 2018 23:09:09 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2018 : 07:03:46
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I'd propose that the Empires are of a Religious Nature...and therefore easily able to be stable in the sense of structure and purpose...not simple tribal gatherings.
If we are going to use the word "Empire" then that alone will denote structure. Even if it were a structure based on religion; that is ok as Orcs are Lawful Evil (according to the rules I play by...none of this Chaotic Evil crap for me thanks).
As for the Mountain Orcs remaining primitive...we have more than enough evidence to show that they were constantly at war against each other...but also that the elves kept them disorganized and in a primitive state.
Too many people look at "mechanics" to represent that races are different.
A Scro IS an Orc...just a better trained and more skilled warrior. Not necessarily tougher; just better because of his culture and training. He is smarter because of his education and cultural learning...not just because he has a higher DNA evolution...or maybe he does.
I'd say that Orcs, much like humans, can be any number of things that SEEM like new races...but in general, they are just orcs just like a Dalesman Archer is the same as a Mooneye Mercenary.
Hells, Cro-Magnon had a bigger cranial capacity than most people alive today...but would he have seemed more intelligent standing next to an educated modern man? No...but in fact he WAS likely more intelligent as he was constantly "at work" surviving. Studies, many studies, have proven that modern man is losing his brain mass because of a sedentary life.
So Orcs are Orcs...that isn't going to change in just 30,000 years really beyond cultural and technological "enhancements" (not counting the magically created Neo-Orogs of Thay).
As for the Orcs not being from the same world...I'm pretty serious about languages. I have to be for both work and for my own educational interests.
This sentence segment, in English (ask an English Professor):
...opened a portal to the orcs’ homeworld...
The important part is "orcs'" here. If they were simply talking about plural form for one group then it would be "gray orcs" and if talking about a single orc would have been "orc's" instead.
However, the use of the s' denotes two groups; and not one.
I'll concede that the person writing may have simply meant "orcs" but that isn't what is written. It is referencing plural groups as written...so that is what I have to go on. As both subject groups are being discussed in the same paragraph and the word orcs' is used; it can only mean two groups.
It then says homeworld...so that pretty much makes it simple for me that both groups are from the same world. I'm not saying ALL orcs come from this world...only that these two groups came from the same world; and so unless other information is presented about orcs coming to Faerun I can safely say they all came from one world. Sure, a vast amount of time has gone on in that world since the two groups were introduced to Faerun...but still, using English as the rules are currently written for it, it means both groups are from the same world. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
Edited by - Dalor Darden on 07 Jan 2018 07:38:22 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2018 : 16:07:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
A Scro IS an Orc...just a better trained and more skilled warrior. Not necessarily tougher; just better because of his culture and training. He is smarter because of his education and cultural learning...not just because he has a higher DNA evolution...or maybe he does.
So they were also trained to be a couple of feet taller and have magic resistance, and to be able to do something other orcs absolutely could not do?
Scro and orcs share a common origin, but it is canon that they are not the same race. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2018 : 21:29:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
A Scro IS an Orc...just a better trained and more skilled warrior. Not necessarily tougher; just better because of his culture and training. He is smarter because of his education and cultural learning...not just because he has a higher DNA evolution...or maybe he does.
So they were also trained to be a couple of feet taller and have magic resistance, and to be able to do something other orcs absolutely could not do?
Scro and orcs share a common origin, but it is canon that they are not the same race.
I left that open with "...not just because he has a higher DNA evolution...or maybe he does." |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2018 : 03:04:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
A Scro IS an Orc...just a better trained and more skilled warrior. Not necessarily tougher; just better because of his culture and training. He is smarter because of his education and cultural learning...not just because he has a higher DNA evolution...or maybe he does.
So they were also trained to be a couple of feet taller and have magic resistance, and to be able to do something other orcs absolutely could not do?
Scro and orcs share a common origin, but it is canon that they are not the same race.
I left that open with "...not just because he has a higher DNA evolution...or maybe he does."
If he has a higher DNA evolution, then he is a separate species... And therefore, not an orc. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2018 : 03:53:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
If he has a higher DNA evolution, then he is a separate species... And therefore, not an orc.
Cro-Magnon are and are not humans...
Cro-Magnon are early man to modern man as orc are early orc to Scro.
Genetically we are identical to them (cro-magnon) but physiologically we are not.
Scro are as much orcs as we are Cro-magnon.
What you are suggesting is that Red Dragons and White Dragons are not Dragons...but simply two entirely different races using that logic.
My point is that Scro ARE different from "normal" orcs...but still orcs. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
Edited by - Dalor Darden on 08 Jan 2018 03:56:27 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2018 : 04:38:36
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| According to their MM entry scro "resemble" orcs but not orcs, they are a different "goblinoid race." |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2018 : 05:26:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
If he has a higher DNA evolution, then he is a separate species... And therefore, not an orc.
Cro-Magnon are and are not humans...
Cro-Magnon are early man to modern man as orc are early orc to Scro.
Genetically we are identical to them (cro-magnon) but physiologically we are not.
Scro are as much orcs as we are Cro-magnon.
What you are suggesting is that Red Dragons and White Dragons are not Dragons...but simply two entirely different races using that logic.
My point is that Scro ARE different from "normal" orcs...but still orcs.
Wolves, dogs, foxes, and coyotes are all part of the Family Canidae. It is clear that these animals, though closely related, are very, very different from each other. A dingo and a Chihuahua are certainly related, but you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone that says they're the same thing.
So it goes with dragons and goblinoids. There are wildly differing types within each family -- the fact that different dragon types are all related to each other doesn't mean that white dragons and gold dragons are identical, and the fact that they're all goblinoids doesn't mean that bugbears and goblins are the same.
Just because scro and orcs are related, it does not change the fact that they are very, very different, and that all of the source material about them flat out says they are not the same. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2018 : 06:01:28
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| One of my favorite old Dragon Mag articles was when they made 1st edition MM entries for various real world animals - one or two of these was for "Canids" (Family Canidae, mentioned in the previous post and source of this thought :P ) I wish someone with both an avid interest in D&D and a good background in zoology would make an entire supplement like this for real world animals. This would be incredible. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2018 : 07:12:26
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| As for the dragons stuff, I do remember that the original Draconomicon have a section discussing about that dragons are not an species, but a genus. Is quite interesting, but the sages at Candlekeep in the end got to no conclusion to any theory. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2018 : 07:14:08
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You'd be even more hard-pressed to find anyone who claims sun elves and drow are the same species. Yes, both races are elves, and both are derived from the same original stock. Even ignoring the rather obvious (though perhaps genetically "trivial") differences in pigmentation/etc the drow (as a race) possess more hit dice, more intelligence, and natural magic resistance ... attributes lacking in sun elves ... just as do scro in comparison to orcs. Yet they are clearly not just minor variations in one species but are arguably entirely different (and largely incompatible) species.
But again, there seem to be no canon references to scro in the Realms, other than Spelljammer products which might place some scro in Realmspace. So, casting arguments about scro-vs-orcs aside (either way), it seems evident they have nothing to do with the topic's OP. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 08 Jan 2018 07:16:24 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2018 : 13:57:05
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Obould's mama was brought to the moon to be sold as slavestock when some Scro visited.... then someone started playing "Let's Get it On" by Marvin Gaye.... afterward she got mouthy and the spelljammer skimmed the top of the spine of the world just long enough to boot her out (literally he used his boot to kick her butt out).... and thus Obould was always told by his Mama that he was born as a result of a "booty call".... it's true... I read it somewhere... I think it was on some cave wall....
Oh, and then those scro happened across an illithid vessel who boarded them and ate their brains. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 08 Jan 2018 13:57:42 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2018 : 14:55:17
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Obould's mama was brought to the moon to be sold as slavestock when some Scro visited.... then someone started playing "Let's Get it On" by Marvin Gaye.... afterward she got mouthy and the spelljammer skimmed the top of the spine of the world just long enough to boot her out (literally he used his boot to kick her butt out).... and thus Obould was always told by his Mama that he was born as a result of a "booty call".... it's true... I read it somewhere... I think it was on some cave wall....
Oh, and then those scro happened across an illithid vessel who boarded them and ate their brains.
I'd be tempted to say that Obould was full-on scro, on a mission to cause as much trouble for elves on the ground as he could, as well as lead orcs down a more scro-like path.
Sure, it's not canon... But scro Obould raising a kingdom to civilize orcs makes a hell of a lot more sense than orc Obould raising a kingdom that treats peacefully with its neighbors on behalf of a god of conquest. |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2018 : 16:07:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'd be tempted to say that Obould was full-on scro, on a mission to cause as much trouble for elves on the ground as he could, as well as lead orcs down a more scro-like path.
Sure, it's not canon... But scro Obould raising a kingdom to civilize orcs makes a hell of a lot more sense than orc Obould raising a kingdom that treats peacefully with its neighbors on behalf of a god of conquest.
Agreed... Too many parallels between Obould and Dukagsh to be written off as coincidence in a multiverse where Divine Reincarnation is a reality. |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2018 : 16:14:51
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Hmmm...so Orcs can breed with just about anything.
It makes me wonder if Orcs are even orcs. I know that sounds weird; but hear me out.
What if the reason they can breed with almost anything is that the original "orc" people were modified intentionally to be able to breed with anything...sort of like a parasitic virus.
Going back a few posts it was mentioned that Orcs invariably seem to destroy whatever habitat they live in. What if "Orc" is a genetic "disease" intended to wipe out civilizations?
A long time ago (over ten years now), in my own campaign world, I took the idea of Orcs but instead used the term Kur from ancient Sumerian. In my campaign the Kur were created by a race I called Aerkay to be rapidly breeding warriors that could destroy the Dwarf (Dwur) race who rebelled and threw out the Aerkay. Eventually the Kur were defeated; but the residual effect of them was the eventual mixing with some of humanity and the creation of the Daerkur (Half-Kur) race...half-orcs.
Back to topic, what if (like Ayrik said) the eventual destination of all orcs is oblivion for whatever world they inhabit if they succeed in becoming dominant? Even if it is a religious aspect that overtakes an orc world; wouldn't sacrifice of enemies and conquest always on the mind lead to the same sort of ruin as is found in Acheron? Originally Acheron was the "heaven" of the Orcs: endless battle-fields upon desolate cubes. I'd picture it easily that the world the Gray Orcs came from was indeed like Acheron.
Per Scro history:
"Like their orcish forebears, scro are fecund." and "The scro trace their ancestry back to the orc tribes that fought and lost the Unhuman Wars." and "Dukagsh is the scro homeworld. It is filled with well-planned cities that house 10,000 to 100,000 scro apiece. Dukagsh is named after the first Almighty Leader of the scro, who helped his people change from savage, bloodthirsty orcs into the well-organized, intelligent warrior race they are now."
Pretty much shows me that Scro are orcs...just BETTER orcs. Perhaps their new homeworld gives them their magic resistance and they may have "selective" breeding programs where the largest bulls mate with the women to increase the physical prowess of their people. I couldn't say for sure...but it is clear they are orcs; even if simply more "evolved" orcs. Sort of like Spelljammer Klingons.
It also reinforces my idea (the Scro do) that orcs are simply a plague that wants to wipe out other species...but that things can (and do) change them at times into a less deadly form of plague.
Which brings me back to the world the Mountain and Gray Orcs of the Forgotten Realms come from.
It could have gone either way after the Gray Orcs came to Faerun. Their "best and brightest" could have been at the forefront of the invading hordes and thus the civilization on their homeworld would have dimmed and perhaps fallen back into savage tribalism...or the portal only opened to one empire and others have now taken its place.
If the world fell to tribalism it may still survive mostly because petty wars between tribal Kings isn't as bad as mighty magical empires unleashing hell on each other.
If, instead, the Empires continued to war against each other, I see something akin to what happened between the Nar and Raumathar and they either destroyed their world almost completely or are perhaps in the process of doing so. Orcs are never satisfied in war. Even if one of their Empires became dominant and wiped out all others, then factions within the remaining Empire would likely war against each other (as the Romans did).
So, looking at it like this after a good deal of thinking, I'm now prone to agree with Ayrik that in whatever way, this Orc World is likely NOT as regimented and stable as the Scro homeworld. It probably is indeed riddled with ruins and horrors...I just have to decide now whether the orcs have fully fell back into full on barbarism...or if instead they have "evolved then fell" in some magical cataclysm of their own making. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2018 : 16:42:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
If the Gray Orcs came from their world in –1076 DR; what might their world be like at 2,500+ years later?
To answer the OP... I would posit that the Orc Homeworld was a dying world that was the result of the colonial Hubris/Betrayal of the Elves & Dwarves, and that the so-called savagery/in-fighting of the Orcs was the result of the colonial powers of the Elves & Dwarves pitting Orc tribes against each other while they stripped the planet of its wealth of natural resources. So, 2,500+ years later this world would be an uninhabitable world, similar to Mars (but with ruins denoting a secret history that explains the animosity between Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs as something other than mythology, although it comports with their cultural creation myths)... The people of the Realms may have seen Fanatical Invading Orc Hordes coming through the OrcGates, but the Orcs certainly perceived themselves as Desperate Refugees fleeing Genocidal Planetary devastation... and as with all things the Truth is somewhere in the middle, they were both Refugees and Invaders. |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2018 : 17:35:26
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The orc entries in AD&D monster books also describe orogs. Orogs are generally a little larger, much tougher (more hit dice), and much smarter than common orcs ("low" to "average" to "high" intelligence). They invariably become the greatest leaders and the fiercest warriors. Some speculation is offered about whether (as the name suggests) orogs might be some sort of orc-ogre (or orc-ogremagi?) hybrid, but the main assertion is that orogs are somehow idealized, "noble", and "purebred" orcs (along with the implied assertion that common orcs are all then bastardized mongrels with diluted bloodlines).
Aggressive orcs will take partners at every opportunity, most often by force (since, of course, most humans or demihumans would never willingly offer themselves to an orc or group of orcs).
Half-orcs (of human descent) were a playable race in 1E, and player characters were assumed to be in the "10% or so" of such bestial pairings who are intelligent, attractive (that is, non-repulsive), lucky, and civilized enough to (just barely) function in the fringes of human society. (With the other 90% presumably being "half-humans" within orcish society, if they aren't killed first.)
Orc-blooded tieflings are possible (and said to be "not uncommon") in 2E Planescape, although their orcish characteristics are far less noticeable than their immediately obvious fiendish/outsider ones to most people.
Various 2E materials have categorically stated that it is impossible for orcs to ever sire any offspring with elves or with dwarves (even though orcs can breed with humans while humans can breed with elves or dwarves).
One of the bad old forgotten FR novels actually had an orc paladin in the hero party, along with various plot obstacles in encounters with every orc or non-orc they met who automatically rejected or dismissed the possibility. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 08 Jan 2018 17:48:35 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2018 : 17:54:26
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Well, since I take a more Tolkienesque approach to my orcs (and one writer ran with that in a Dragon article), my Orcs are originally of Fey stock. And once again (I've mentioned it at least a few times), my whole take on the fey is something close to what was done with them in the Sage of Pliocene Exile (and excellent series, that although is technically scify, reads just like fantasy). This is the take on them from those books -
Fey (Tanu in the novels) have split into two main camps - the Tanu, who are your typical, tall, thin, regal looking Fey, and the Firvulag, who are the monstrous types. This aligns with the whole Seelie/Unseelie thing. The 'magic' in the novels is actually psionics, but in my version its simply 'magick' (a bit different from human or even modern elvish magic), and the Firvulag are better at changing their bodies using it - they purposefully take on the monstrous visages, as their 'art' (not quite accurate, but that's how it all started). The Fey are all about creativity, and living life to its fullest, to the point of full-blown hedonism. This version is pretty close to how they are depicted in folklore - frivolous, and easy to take insult. In the past, some of their number took creativity to an extreme, and just like how some humans in out culture are completely enthralled by the horror genre, those Fey (the Firvulag in the novels, but in D&D they'd just be 'goblinoids') delighted in taking the most horrific forms they could, to the point where it was almost like a contest who could be the most frightening. The other Fey were not at all amused by this, and hence the schism. In the books, some problems arose and the Firvulag (Unseelie) were driven underground, and there they ran into radioactive material, which mutated them. If we wanted to use this, we could spin that as Faerzress, or some other 'Node of Evil'. However, I simply blame the Dawn War,which changed the physics of the universe, and everything became much less malleable... including its inhabitants. Outside the Feywild, fey lost their ability to change form (some still can, to a limited degree, by 'anchoring' themselves to local geographic features or objects). I covered a little of this in my other thread, about giants/dwarves having been able to change size easily. Even in the Feywild, it takes a great deal of willpower to change form and maintain it, so most simply stay in whatever forms are natural to them. The Orcs are/were the Unseelie nobility - those High Fey that chose to leave faerie with their 'unwashed' kindred (the Goblinoids), disgusted by their brethren's hubris. They - like nearly all unseelie, chose to take more brutish forms, and like all the rest of the fey, got 'stuck' that way after the Dawn War. After countless millennia, these have become 'locked' and they are not separate races. This is also why some groups of Orcs - ones that are peaceful and prefer to live in harmony with the land - are STILL classified as 'fey', like the Ondonti.
In the myths, the elves like to say they were created by Corellon's tears, when he wept in the aftermath of the Gods War, when he was forced to fight his brother Gruumsh. The Eladrin (High Fey) claim they were created from the blood of Corellon, shed during his first battle with his brother, before the Dawn War, when the two disagreed on the nature of freedom of expression. The only real truth in that folklore is that the Eladrin (Fey) had come first, and the Elves (low fey) had come later. The Orcs claim to be of the blood of Gruumsh, when he lost his one eye to Corellon's blade. The Scro, on the other hand, tell a different version* - that the first Orcs were created from the sweat of Gruumsh as he battled Corellon that first time, before the two withdrew from the field. When they fought again after the Dawn War, Corellon betrayed Gruumsh and took out his eye, and from that bloody socket ichor dripped, and that is what became the Scro - Gruumsh's righteous determination made manifest. Scholars, of course, say most of these stories are pure hyperbole, fabricated for their religions, and most scholars would be right... mostly.
Orcs today believe that they were wronged in the distant past, mostly by the Seldarine, but also by other gods. Much of their folklore revolve around this theme. They believe that they elves only care for beauty and creativity if it fits their mold - that the elves think they have some right to judge the opinions of others, and find them unworthy. Thus, there may be some truth in the orcish beliefs, for other races have seen this for themselves.
The other problem with Orcs stems from their Fey heritage - they CAN 'mate with anything'. The odd part about this is that the one race that is said to not be compatible (fertility-wise) with Orcs are elves (I'm pretty sure that's OLD canon), but the truth is that the rare times such coupling occur, the child is usually stillborn. Scholars argue as to the reasons for this - perhaps there is some truth to Orc & Elven myths, and that the two races have been 'imprinted' with the fundamental hatred of their parent-gods, and that the unborn child is destroyed by its own self-loathing. Or maybe its something less... divine. Fey are naturally empathic. In fact, the originals were telepathic. Since their true, original forms were pure energy, there was no need for spoken words. As time went on, and the races broke apart and devolved into hundreds of other things, they lost quite a bit of this. Elves still retain a small inkling of this with their communal, and with their magic-circles (Circle Magic originated with the fey) - they can sense things about others who are close to them. Orcs have this too, but they rarely acknowledge it, or even still know about it. For them, its much more primal, and is best seen today in the form of the hordes - it a growing, collective 'mob mentality' that overtakes them, and causes them to become an unthinking horde filled with blood lust. When a few orcs start feeling a certain way about something - or in some rare cases, when powerful leader-type - they can literally 'get into the minds' of the others, and slowly have their own emotional state overwrite those around them. Sages have noticed that if one or two Orcs in a settlement are feeling agitated about something, that agitation with slowly spread its way through the whole group, like an emotional cancer. What neither Elves nor Orcs (Seelie & Unseelie) want to admit is that in this, they are not so different at all. Both wear their emotions on their sleeves, and they are emotionally charged beings. But whereas the orcs will only deal with their emotional state for so long before it manifests as Horde, Elves have more self-control... and it festers. In a thousand year period, Orcs may throw more than a dozen 'Hordes' at other races, accomplishing very little in the long run, but when Elves finally 'have had enough' with a situation, it boils over into wanton destruction the likes of which give the world itself pause. Elves claim to have caused disasters 'by accident'. That "the forces got out of control". The truth is, the subconscious group-mind of the elves wanted it to happen. Their magic IS their Horde, and woe to any group or race that stands in its way. Better the foe that is quick to anger and punches you in the face, then the one who walks away, only to slip through your bedroom window at night, and slit the throats of you and your family. A fey is a fey is a fey... once you wrong them, they WILL get even. 'Seelie' and 'Unseelie' is just a matter of how they go about that.
- Lazarus Ty’miiri, Sage Supreme of the Tower of High Knowledge of Kule
*This last part I added, to give some more depth to the fey/Orc myths. I don't know the Scro well-enough to know if they already had their own myths. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 08 Jan 2018 18:01:18 |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2018 : 19:32:12
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Markustay's post about the influence of the Fey on the Orcs of his Realms & the mention of the Ondonti reminded of the additional meaning of the word "Fecund"... The most common definition of the word refers to physical/biological fertility, but the word also refers to metaphysical/conceptual creativity...
I find the concept of aggressive rapist Orcs to be fairly uninspiring & boring, which is why I think it is an Elven idea pushed on the much shorter lived races (or perhaps a result of Elven interference on the Orc homeworld, after all Spelljammer Lore underscores that Elves have tons of bad ideas)... Regardless, the most consistent piece of Lore on the Orcs across ALL the D&D settings and ALL the D&D editions is their predisposition to being Fanatically Religious... Perhaps one of Corellon's dark secrets is that his ascension to divinity was initially reliant upon the worship of Ancient Orcs?
Anyway, I like the idea that the Ancient Orcs were much like the Odonti... But changed to become more like the "classic marauder" 1e/2e Orcs we all know, after the Elves & Dwarves (known Interlopers) introduced the concept of Warfare... But, as the old saying goes "What goes around, comes around", and eventually out of this cultural devastation we see the emergence of the Scro... which comports with the contemporary depiction of "noble savage" Orcs presented in Volo's Guide to Monsters...
Thus, ALL of the various interpretations of the Orcs are true... |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
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The Orc World
