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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Jan 2018 : 14:06:49
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So, I just happened to be looking in LEoF to see where Girru's tomb was located, and I noted that Gilgeam buried the dead god Nergal AND HIS STILL LIVING FAMILY AND SERVANTS beneath "the Great Barrow" near what would become Narfell and the Rawlinswood. I also know of Pholzubbalt (the boneyard) as a Mulan Mauzoleum that is ALSO near there (a little further south beneath the forest of Lethyr). I also note that right after Nergal would have been buried, Orcus started gaining power in the region that is Narfell, centered primarily in Dun-Tharos which is in the Rawlinswood. Then not quite as close, but there's the followers of Kiaransalee that established themselves in the Vault of Gnashing Teeth (formerly the drow city of V'eldrinnsshar which was on the moondeep sea beneath the Galenas). Then throw in that Zhengyi the Witch King was so interested in the area.
What is the attraction of THIS particular area for beings associated with death?
Oh, and since I know that Gilgeam buried Nergal with his "family", I'm stating that possibly THIS is when his wife Ereshkigal fled Unther down to Sahu. Maybe since the other gods died, he was making "insane" demands of the death goddess.
From Lost Empires of Faerun, page 69
GREAT BARROW
Just off the Great Road, near the southernmost portion of the Rawlinswood in the Great Dale, lies the Great Barrow, a massive burial mound ringed by numerous smaller mounds. The Great Barrow was built in the heady days of the First Untheric Empire as a tomb for the slain Untheric god Nergal. Gilgeam oversaw the god’s lavish burial and sealed Nergal’s still-living family and servants inside the lesser tombs surrounding that of the deity. Once all the tombs had been buried under earthen hills, Gilgeam slaughtered the builders, raised them as undead crypt things, and set them to guard Nergal and his family. Travelers in the area of the Great Barrow often report encountering skeletal undead that choke and gasp as if desperately trying to breathe. Whether these creatures are Gilgeam’s appointed crypt-things or the restless undead remnants of Nergal’s family remains a mystery.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2018 : 17:35:13
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Can't answer all of them, but Zhengi was interested in it because Orcus was. He was Orcus' servant. Also, he was a necromancer red wizard who was 1000 time better than Szass Tam because he achieved everything Tam has been trying to in the Bloodstone lands :P... but - here's a brilliant storytelling idea. Lets make a new undead filled land run by a lich just like bloodstone was. Only, lets make them less powerful an with WAY more enemies regionally and pretend that they would not be wiped out 10x faster than ol' Zhengi was. Then, lets also have a demon army on the loose in the area, just like Bloodstone. Only this time, they are not on the same team and the Demon lord will hate the wizard who tried to enslave him and the wizard will by some miracle STILL not be wiped out in a heartbeat.
Oh wait... that's exactly what they did in Thay. NVM. :P
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2018 : 18:15:05
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And Zhengyi lived in a 'great fortress constructed of/near ice', which seems to be a running theme in FR.
We also seem to see 'cold' = 'death/undeath' a LOT, not just in FR, but in fantasy in general (ie., 'White Walkers'). Funny thing is, this is actually sort-of scientific. Life = energy, and energy generates heat. Without energy/motion there is inertia and a complete lack of heat. Not that this has anything to do with the topic... I think..
EDIT:
Okay, found a way to sort-of relate it to the topic - we see two major types of zombies/physical undead in fantasy/horror; Juju Zombies, which are more like 'living dead', and regular dead-dead zombies. The later tends to occur in colder climes - the colder the environment, the easier it seems to generate the normal, run-of-the-mill zombies. But in areas where life abounds - in southerly, warm/hot climes, we tend to find more of the 'living dead' variety.
And its not just VooDoo I am talking about. In old D&D rules, we had two major types of physical undead - ones created with negative energy (which gets associated with 'cold'), and those created with positive energy, like mummies, etc., which we tend to find more often in hot/desert regions. Sun = 'warmth" = 'area with abundance of life'. Very cold regions - like Narfell - are basically swirling with death-energy, because cold = 'anti-life', or negative energy from old-school D&D.
Just some more 'game theory' I'm throwing around, sorry - hope it helps you somehow. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Jan 2018 18:23:28 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2018 : 19:42:05
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| I think the association of cold and undeath is the simple fact that to a living person, a body that's been dead for a while will feel cold -- it's assumed room temperature, which is usually considerably cooler than the standard issue 98.6º. |
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Balmar Foghaven
Learned Scribe
Canada
124 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2018 : 10:41:58
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| Not to mention that scientifically speaking, colder climates (though not too cold, mind) would support armies of the dead better than tropical heat, which would cause them to decompose at a much more accelerated rate. Basically it's like storing meats in the freezer... just don't leave them too long or they'll get freezer burn XD |
"Despair not, for in the end all things shall work out for the best - in at least one timeline." |
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Balmar Foghaven
Learned Scribe
Canada
124 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2018 : 10:46:37
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| In my own personal Realms, I have been toying around with the idea of deposing with Tam and restoring the (new) zulkirs for some time. I mean to replace his undead nation with a new 'kingdom' of sorts ruled by liches either near Narfell or somewhere further south. Perhaps some area near Unther would be suitable? |
"Despair not, for in the end all things shall work out for the best - in at least one timeline." |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2018 : 12:21:25
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For me S.Tam was always boring :P Zhengi was better. Tan Chin was better. Druuth Dearn was better. Vecna was better. Azalin was better. Acererak was better. The list of powerful liches that I found more interesting over the years goes on and on. The Undead Trilogy only made that MUCH worse. I can understand the desire to create an undead land but do you need to get there by having literally every other Zulkir - wizards powerful enough that Tam has spent decades struggling against them turn out to be useless tools with not so much magical might as the ability for an alliance of them to manage the same thing? Ludicrous.
I'd argue Mythrell'aa was among the most powerful (we've had the debate about Illusionists before, so no lets not rehash that), and we're asked to accept that she was just killed out of hand off-stage. Why would she be destroyed when she has shown in the past a willingness to support him (see Spellbound). Same with his other allies. How does he suddenly become soooo powerful that he can kill off his own most powerful allies and then somehow be more powerful without them...
Also, the whole "I'm pretty much a god in this demiplane" nonsense does a complete end around of the entire cosmology of the FR.
Because its all canon I live with it, but grumble :P... I also believe, though have never detailed, that most of the Zulkirs and many of their supporters were not killed. Mythrell'aa, Lallara, Yaphyll, Nevron, and Lauzoril all survived - contrive any way around their deaths and its better - and they became exiles and control RW enclaves in other realms. Or something. :P
Anyhow - back to the original question at hand. Why so much undeath in the region. I think the obvious answer is the Godswar. There are obviously legacies of those dead gods buried in the region. What those are? who knows. But old powerful wizards might find some hints and then pursue undead so they have the time and/or power to grasp at those ancient legacies.
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2018 : 18:02:19
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
For me S.Tam was always boring :P Zhengi was better. Tan Chin was better. Druuth Dearn was better. Vecna was better. Azalin was better. Acererak was better. The list of powerful liches that I found more interesting over the years goes on and on. The Undead Trilogy only made that MUCH worse. I can understand the desire to create an undead land but do you need to get there by having literally every other Zulkir - wizards powerful enough that Tam has spent decades struggling against them turn out to be useless tools with not so much magical might as the ability for an alliance of them to manage the same thing? Ludicrous.
I'd argue Mythrell'aa was among the most powerful (we've had the debate about Illusionists before, so no lets not rehash that), and we're asked to accept that she was just killed out of hand off-stage. Why would she be destroyed when she has shown in the past a willingness to support him (see Spellbound). Same with his other allies. How does he suddenly become soooo powerful that he can kill off his own most powerful allies and then somehow be more powerful without them...
Also, the whole "I'm pretty much a god in this demiplane" nonsense does a complete end around of the entire cosmology of the FR.
Because its all canon I live with it, but grumble :P... I also believe, though have never detailed, that most of the Zulkirs and many of their supporters were not killed. Mythrell'aa, Lallara, Yaphyll, Nevron, and Lauzoril all survived - contrive any way around their deaths and its better - and they became exiles and control RW enclaves in other realms. Or something. :P
Anyhow - back to the original question at hand. Why so much undeath in the region. I think the obvious answer is the Godswar. There are obviously legacies of those dead gods buried in the region. What those are? who knows. But old powerful wizards might find some hints and then pursue undead so they have the time and/or power to grasp at those ancient legacies.
Interesting that we picked pretty much the same red wizards to restore, except Nevron. While I like Nevron heavily though... he's not necessarily dead. Its just most folks don't know he was changed into a minor demon. However, in the meantime, I chose to bring back Sabass of Thay, the former head of the researchers faction, whom I choose to portray as the "plotting fifteen moves ahead" type of red wizard.... and he's pissed at Tam.
Now, there could easily be something that comes to a head if Nevron comes back and Sabass and Nevron have to compete for the position of Zulkir. That being said, in my new layout for the red wizards with the United Tharchs of Toril, I have set a standard for 2 individuals sharing the Zulkirship by simply splitting the amount of votes they have (of course, it helps in this instance that "both" Zulkirs are both versions of Lauzoril). Essentially, I've thrown out the "one ruler for each school" idea and made it more "a collective leadership for each school split amongst widespread tharchs with one individual getting more votes and acting as 'CEO' for said school". |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2018 : 18:15:29
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The way I am spinning things in my Realms is that Thaymount is now a realm unto itself. Szass is up there, and so are the 'hordes of undead', but the rest of Thay has gone back to 'business as usual'. I'm not sure how to spin the relationships between the two realms, though - maybe something akin to how things played-out in the Great kingdom of GH after the Greyhawk Wars. Of course, most of the divided 'provinces (VERY similar to thay's Tharchs) are lead by undead (Animus), and if I were to use that, it would still stink of the 4e version (although having one or two like that - and secretly allied/beholden to Szass Tam, might be fun).
No 'Thaymart'. If I use any of that storyline, I may make it an independent Wizard's Guild with a 'secret base' somewhere, that is no longer even affiliated with that (which may just be a ruse... not sure...) I was going to add more here, but this isn't the appropriate thread.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think the association of cold and undeath is the simple fact that to a living person, a body that's been dead for a while will feel cold -- it's assumed room temperature, which is usually considerably cooler than the standard issue 98.6º.
Way to go all 'Mundania' on us. 
I KNOW what the real reasoning is, but I was translating it into fantasy. "A body at rest stays at rest". Unless it comes back as a zombie. The body doesn't actually get cold - it just stops producing its heat, BECAUSE there is no longer any life the lack of life means a lack of energy, and therefor, there is no movement on a molecular scale (like how a battery gets warm because electrons are moving around).
Hmmmm... Friction = 'Life'. Thats a good point for Chaos (Xaos) to argue. Stagnation leads to decay (entropy), so although Shar is pro-entropy, apparently she generates enough 'strife' to actually be helpful to life itself (adversity and Darwin's 'survival of the fittest', etc.)
I never really thought of Selûne/Mystra and Shar representing the primal forces of Birth & Death - both are necessary for life to flourish. Funny how nearly every conversation around here makes me reevaluate stuff. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 06 Jan 2018 22:55:45 |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2018 : 19:30:58
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| Isn't there a "Node of Evil" below Dun-Tharos? |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2018 : 21:45:55
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Interesting that we picked pretty much the same red wizards to restore, except Nevron. While I like Nevron heavily though... he's not necessarily dead. Its just most folks don't know he was changed into a minor demon.
How's this for Nevron, or anyone else. He / they sent in SIMULACRUMS loaded up with some spells and magical trinkets to delay Szass inside his little demi-plane-of-self-delusion long enough for them to do whatever they were actually planning in the real world.
He didn't turn anyone into a demon, just a simulacrum that will disappear in a couple hours.
Also, if you don't like that, think about this. Since when does ANYONE have the power to turn a soul into a MANE that didn't earn it and over-ride the system AO has in place. More likely is a simple polymorph other, which most wizards can undo without much effort. So even if he polymorphs Nevron and sends him to the hells, when he gets there he just polymorphs himself right back and then opens a gate to go home - maybe bringing a few devils along to unleash on his undead nemesis. I can think of MANY powerful devils that would make pretty much any bargain for a one way trip to THAY and the chances that creates, including literally every one of the Archdevils exiled by Asmodeus to Avernus or even any of the 8. They would all be more than Tam's match head to head by they way. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2018 : 22:03:37
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| Also, that last idea would make Thaymount like a new Hellgate Keep :P |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2018 : 23:07:45
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Don't we have demons in Impiltur?
So if we put a major devil presence in Thay, that could make Thesk and/or the Great Dale a battleground (a localized Bloodwar).
Though, to be honest, just another keep/region of fiends is getting old. It was already over-used in old FR, and 4e just made it so much worse (fiends everywhere! they even come over for dinner!) I am just SO TIRED of demons and devils (and all other fiendish stuff). Also starting to get a bit bored with the Far Realms/Lovecraftian themes as well. Why can't we have an 'incursion' from some other plane? heck, even the Shadowfell would be better (and would fit the whole 'undead' thing really well). There are plenty of good things we can use from the Plane of Shadows, including the Malaugrym.
And lastly, Thay used to be a CENTAUR REALM before humans settled it. We could also have a Feywild incursion (although that theme doesn't fit Thay nearly as well as shadow does).
OR, we could just use another world, like what happened with the Orcgates. Faerûn getting a cool invasion might be neat - something so awful good and bad folks alike have to work together. It could even be from a world we already know (Abeir would be too obvious, although we can go just about anywhere with it). Too bad we already had a Tiamat AP - we could have been invaded by Krynn, although I think the Draconians would get their butts handed to them. Athas is the wrong climate (it would be fun to do a 'Rifts' scenario down in the shaar with that, though). Something COLD. Maybe Threndoy - Kiaransalee leads armies of undead drow throw gates and into Thay? Do a whole 'Ice Queen' (Narnia) meets White walkers (GoT) thing. White Walker Drow... now there''s a thought...  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Jan 2018 03:59:51 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2018 : 00:00:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Don't we have demons in Impiltur?
So if we put a major devil presence in Thay, that could make Thesk and/or the Great Dale a battleground (a localized Bloodwar).
Impiltur had a few major demons in 4e, but all of them are dealt with in the LFR adventures. Though, the destiny of Morthak was left in the air, as the final adventure of the Impiltur series has many endings and no way to know what one was the canon ending. So, there you have it.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Though, to be honest, just another keep/region of fiends is getting old. It was already over-used in old FR, and 4e just made it so much worse (fiends everywhere! they even come over for dinner!) I am just SO TIRED of demons and devils (and all other fiendish stuff). Also starting to get a bit bored with the Far Realms/Lovecraftian themes as well. Why can't we have an 'incursion' from some other plane? heck, even the Shadowfell would be better (and would fit the whole 'undead' thing really well). There are plenty of good things we can use from the Pane of Shadows, including the Malaugrym.
But the metaplot of 4e was to protect Faerûn from a big incursion from the Shadowfell (the Netherese) and to avoid Shar of using the Shadowfell to eat Toril... |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 07 Jan 2018 00:00:50 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2018 : 04:18:27
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Yeah, but... but... Dread Rings!!! {Duh duh duh!}
In other words, there is no reason why the metaplot can't have 'holes' in it. Lord knows all the other plots do.
Whatever over-acrhing divine/planer intrigues were going on keeping the Shadowfell and whatever else from 'leeching' into FR, Szass Tam would have put a big Kabosh on all of that because he basically punched a hole into a realm of pure undeath. even though it didn't work (go according to his plan), it still did something, because everyone was turned into undead, so there is 'something' permeating the area... something 'not of this world'. {que spooky music}
But I just had an even better idea, or rather, an evolved one (I did mention pokémon earlier, right?  ). Szass Tam's plan backfired, and no-one has yet realized it. The whole reason why he has been 'quiet' is because he's not even there... he got pulled into Ravenloft. However, his Dread Rings and ritual have allowed him to 'force a portal' to remain open - something that's never happened in Ravenloft (Shadowfell) history before, and its been growing, like a cancer. Its almost encompassed the entirety of Thaymount. The Rift is allowing 'shadowstuff' to get through, but Szass Tam doesn't have enough power to push through himself (he is having a 'battle of wills' with the Dark Powers). But his minions are there, including a couple of VERY powerful ones, and they been masquerading (on rare occasions) as Tam just so folks think he's still up there, and up to something.
So even though he is still ruler of Thaymount, and his underlings are still 'following his orders', he has an identical realm in the Shadowfell, in the Domains of Dread, and he is wreaking some havoc over there (not only has he sent armies of undead into all the surrounding realms, he has even tried to take-control of Azalin and Strahd. It didn't work of course, but the two were so highly insulted they've put their differences aside... for now... and are trying to destroy Tam. he's like a caged beast, throwing himself at the walls of his prison (although that 'assault' is happening on many different levels most people can't even begin to fathom).
My assumption here is that he has been stuck there for quite some time, although not nearly as much time has passed on the Ravenloft side, and that the Dark powers will find it necessary to 'vomit him back out' (so yea, Szass Tam gave Ravenloft a case of indigestion). When he comes back, he'll also accidentally bring back Gondegal with him, who is now an Umbral Warlord (like a death knight on steroids). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Jan 2018 04:22:38 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2018 : 04:58:03
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| I hate the whole Ravenloft / Demiplane of shadow link. Hate it. The urge to merge planes and gods baffled me. The only part of the demiplane of dread that had any direct connection to the demiplane of shadow was the shadow-rift. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2018 : 13:38:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
Isn't there a "Node of Evil" below Dun-Tharos?
Yes, something along those lines. It was also renamed because it was previously the drow city of Narathmault. I also had it homebrew as a hag city with various hags from the Feywild around -27k DR (I called the city Bheuristahl) involved with the local giant, troll, and ogre populations (many Bheur hags really liked frost giant lovers from the nearby kingdom of Ostoria, and the fire giant lovers from nearby Helligheim/Ironfang Keep).
I also placed Chupoclops (see the spider-like vestige from the 3.5e Tome of Magic that ate spirits) here prior to that. BTW, having Chupoclops the "primordial spider that eats souls" here and then sending Lolth (the spider goddess) worshipping dark elves here wasn't initially intentional, but it does work very well. Oh, and for those who would ask why Chupoclops is listed specific to the realms by me, part of that is that it says that Chupoclops "once stood tall in the company of Fenris, Dendar the Night Serpent, and other supposed harbingers of the end of existence. A titanic, spiderlike creature, Chupoclops stalked the ethereal plane, devouring ghosts and giving birth to mortals' nightmares" |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2018 : 15:17:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The way I am spinning things in my Realms is that Thaymount is now a realm unto itself. Szass is up there, and so are the 'hordes of undead', but the rest of Thay has gone back to 'business as usual'. I'm not sure how to spin the relationships between the two realms, though - maybe something akin to how things played-out in the Great kingdom of GH after the Greyhawk Wars. Of course, most of the divided 'provinces (VERY similar to thay's Tharchs) are lead by undead (Animus), and if I were to use that, it would still stink of the 4e version (although having one or two like that - and secretly allied/beholden to Szass Tam, might be fun).
No 'Thaymart'. If I use any of that storyline, I may make it an independent Wizard's Guild with a 'secret base' somewhere, that is no longer even affiliated with that (which may just be a ruse... not sure...) I was going to add more here, but this isn't the appropriate thread.
Regarding Thay being broken out with Tam only holding some tharchs, that does heavily contradict the lore as of 1478. Granted, its now 1491 or 1492, so things CAN change. However, I see you started another thread, so I'm going to put some longer posting of ideas revolving around enclaves, etc... there. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2018 : 15:47:48
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Interesting that we picked pretty much the same red wizards to restore, except Nevron. While I like Nevron heavily though... he's not necessarily dead. Its just most folks don't know he was changed into a minor demon.
How's this for Nevron, or anyone else. He / they sent in SIMULACRUMS loaded up with some spells and magical trinkets to delay Szass inside his little demi-plane-of-self-delusion long enough for them to do whatever they were actually planning in the real world.
He didn't turn anyone into a demon, just a simulacrum that will disappear in a couple hours.
Also, if you don't like that, think about this. Since when does ANYONE have the power to turn a soul into a MANE that didn't earn it and over-ride the system AO has in place. More likely is a simple polymorph other, which most wizards can undo without much effort. So even if he polymorphs Nevron and sends him to the hells, when he gets there he just polymorphs himself right back and then opens a gate to go home - maybe bringing a few devils along to unleash on his undead nemesis. I can think of MANY powerful devils that would make pretty much any bargain for a one way trip to THAY and the chances that creates, including literally every one of the Archdevils exiled by Asmodeus to Avernus or even any of the 8. They would all be more than Tam's match head to head by they way.
Actually, its pretty easy to save most of these Zulkirs. If we look at the stories for most on what happened to them, there's options.
Yes, Nevron's change could be reverted.
Mythrell'aa... she faked her death... in faking her death, she actually implanted this concept in people's minds that she is named Mythrellan (using the lore to change the lore... since the novels for some reason were calling her Mythrellan and not Mythrell'aa). Why did she do it? She was told by Yaphyll that she'd foreseen that the other Zulkirs would "know her to be dead". Where'd she go? That's a longer story I've been working with, but it involves the Netherese enclave of Doubloon, Nimbral, and the moon and Tears of Selune. I also have her being a mortal/weakened avatar for Leira temporarily in the city of Soorenar just following the spellplague and entering Velsharoon's Tower Terrible. She may also be involved with the moon's face changing on Abeir to appear as it did in Toril while she was an avatar of Leira (which corresponded to a strange form of cooperative dream magic that all Torilian spellcasters can vaguely recall being part of in their sleep).
Lauzoril.... I liked him so much, I rescued him twice.... first one, in Tam's special place he was simply compelled to jump off a cliff... feather fall, levitate, and fly all come to mind, many of which he may have had on a ring, in a magic item, or as some contingent affect. The second one, I rescued while on Abeir by having his daughter Mimuay (while possessed by the avatar of Velsharoon) "awaken" a clone of him (ala something similar to that done to Manshoon).
Lallara Mediocros ... she didn't die in the novel. We see her still facing off against Tam. So, I have her and the Lauzoril that didn't die working together to drop Tam's defenses and changing his memories, because they knew they couldn't kill him in the special demiplane where he'd setup so many advantages keyed to him. However, something happened when Tam left the demiplane, and they got trapped until the Sundering released them.
Yaphyll Sirtula (I forget where I learned her last name, but I think I have Krash to thank for that... maybe Tom Costa?)- its canon that Tam compelled her to cast her most powerful divination. This split her in two and sent a portion of herself into the future to the spellplague. At that point, I simply state that this future self survived and went to Abeir. I actually have her being a mortal/weakened avatar for Savras temporarily in the city of Soorenar just following the spellplague and entering Velsharoon's Tower Terrible.
By the way, most of these instances where someone serves as an avatar for a deity in what I'm writing up is usually only for a few weeks/months. They then take the body of someone else somewhere else while on Abeir to perform some other task (and these deities while on Abeir were not idle... I'm picturing them acting kind of like the chosen and going through a checklist of things they need to enact, find some artifact or relic of their church, free from control of some being, etc...) for at least the first ten years while on Abeir. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2018 : 16:10:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Yeah, but... but... Dread Rings!!! {Duh duh duh!}
In other words, there is no reason why the metaplot can't have 'holes' in it. Lord knows all the other plots do.
Whatever over-acrhing divine/planer intrigues were going on keeping the Shadowfell and whatever else from 'leeching' into FR, Szass Tam would have put a big Kabosh on all of that because he basically punched a hole into a realm of pure undeath. even though it didn't work (go according to his plan), it still did something, because everyone was turned into undead, so there is 'something' permeating the area... something 'not of this world'. {que spooky music}
But I just had an even better idea, or rather, an evolved one (I did mention pokémon earlier, right? ). Szass Tam's plan backfired, and no-one has yet realized it. The whole reason why he has been 'quiet' is because he's not even there... he got pulled into Ravenloft. However, his Dread Rings and ritual have allowed him to 'force a portal' to remain open - something that's never happened in Ravenloft (Shadowfell) history before, and its been growing, like a cancer. Its almost encompassed the entirety of Thaymount. The Rift is allowing 'shadowstuff' to get through, but Szass Tam doesn't have enough power to push through himself (he is having a 'battle of wills' with the Dark Powers). But his minions are there, including a couple of VERY powerful ones, and they been masquerading (on rare occasions) as Tam just so folks think he's still up there, and up to something.
So even though he is still ruler of Thaymount, and his underlings are still 'following his orders', he has an identical realm in the Shadowfell, in the Domains of Dread, and he is wreaking some havoc over there (not only has he sent armies of undead into all the surrounding realms, he has even tried to take-control of Azalin and Strahd. It didn't work of course, but the two were so highly insulted they've put their differences aside... for now... and are trying to destroy Tam. he's like a caged beast, throwing himself at the walls of his prison (although that 'assault' is happening on many different levels most people can't even begin to fathom).
My assumption here is that he has been stuck there for quite some time, although not nearly as much time has passed on the Ravenloft side, and that the Dark powers will find it necessary to 'vomit him back out' (so yea, Szass Tam gave Ravenloft a case of indigestion). When he comes back, he'll also accidentally bring back Gondegal with him, who is now an Umbral Warlord (like a death knight on steroids).
On this idea, there is a seed, but not the whole Ravenloft thing, etc... Having Tam actually have tied himself so much to the dread ring "ritual" that when it was enacted, it began drawing energy slowly out of him despite its failure. Perhaps Tam has been reverting to having to feed this energy by getting larvae from night hags, etc... (not unknown for liches)... but its made him weak enough that he's trying to hide his weakness from his fellow red wizards. He may also be slowly going insane (let us not forget the curse which came with the death moon orb).
We actually somewhat have an instance of this from the novels, in that Tam had to appear before his fellow Zulkirs looking very much like a lich rather than the normal "looking still alive" that he was known for. In fact, he pretty much had given up on hiding his status throughout 4e.
Just a thought as well.... would it not be a most interesting twist if the Book of Fastrin the Delver... that set Tam down this path of despicable evil, and had Tam so convinced that if he completed this ritual he'd become a god.... was a holy relic of Leira, and its true purpose was to generate enough power to restore a god and/or gods... but the secret was so well hidden that "almighty Szass Tam" didn't see the truth.
And this will go way out on a limb.... but we know that Mellifleur was created by drawing on the power of Bane (against Bane's will and not intentional by Mellifleur)... then Velsharoon took over Mellifleur's power... so Velsharoon's power has TIES to Bane of a sort.... and Velsharoon and Leira both in theory served the goddess of magic.... so when Tam "commanded" Bane to tell him about magic... was it really Bane that appeared? Or was it Velsharoon APPEARING as Bane to encourage Tam down the path that they needed him to follow (after all Velsharoon hated Tam, so this would be like icing on the cake)?
However, the Death Moon Orb predictably bore a subtle curse. It drove the user to perform increasingly evil acts, and if one used it too long or too often, then they would be turned to chaos and evil, becoming monstrously cruel and wicked. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2018 : 17:02:41
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Just a thought as well.... would it not be a most interesting twist if the Book of Fastrin the Delver... that set Tam down this path of despicable evil, and had Tam so convinced that if he completed this ritual he'd become a god.... was a holy relic of Leira, and its true purpose was to generate enough power to restore a god and/or gods... but the secret was so well hidden that "almighty Szass Tam" didn't see the truth.
I like this idea. 
I'd tweak it a bit, though... Perhaps it was originally intended to raise a mortal to divinity, but after the ToT, a devout follower of Leira found the book, tweaked it a bit, and thus changed its purpose. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 07 Jan 2018 17:07:20 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2018 : 17:27:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Just a thought as well.... would it not be a most interesting twist if the Book of Fastrin the Delver... that set Tam down this path of despicable evil, and had Tam so convinced that if he completed this ritual he'd become a god.... was a holy relic of Leira, and its true purpose was to generate enough power to restore a god and/or gods... but the secret was so well hidden that "almighty Szass Tam" didn't see the truth.
I like this idea.
I'd tweak it a bit, though... Perhaps it was originally intended to raise a mortal to divinity, but after the ToT, a devout follower of Leira found the book, tweaked it a bit, and thus changed its purpose.
Zoink... stolen... yeah, I like that even better Wooly. I would actually though make it Leira herself changing the book, have her changing it DURING the ToT, and then specifically putting it somewhere where Druxus Rhym finds it. Maybe she changed it to generate enough energy to restore HER should she need it done.
In fact.... If Mythrell'aa had even temporarily served as the avatar of Leira (nothing says she has to remember it, as I can see Leira making her hosts forget the time that they served as her host)... she may have even set this in motion... and since it was Druxus Rhym that discovered the book, I can see Leira LOVING tricking a member of the reknowned "researchers faction" of Thay with one of her lies (which Rhym WASN'T tricked, but Tam was). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2018 : 18:01:00
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Just a thought as well.... would it not be a most interesting twist if the Book of Fastrin the Delver... that set Tam down this path of despicable evil, and had Tam so convinced that if he completed this ritual he'd become a god.... was a holy relic of Leira, and its true purpose was to generate enough power to restore a god and/or gods... but the secret was so well hidden that "almighty Szass Tam" didn't see the truth.
I like this idea.
I'd tweak it a bit, though... Perhaps it was originally intended to raise a mortal to divinity, but after the ToT, a devout follower of Leira found the book, tweaked it a bit, and thus changed its purpose.
Zoink... stolen... yeah, I like that even better Wooly. I would actually though make it Leira herself changing the book, have her changing it DURING the ToT, and then specifically putting it somewhere where Druxus Rhym finds it. Maybe she changed it to generate enough energy to restore HER should she need it done.
In fact.... If Mythrell'aa had even temporarily served as the avatar of Leira (nothing says she has to remember it, as I can see Leira making her hosts forget the time that they served as her host)... she may have even set this in motion... and since it was Druxus Rhym that discovered the book, I can see Leira LOVING tricking a member of the reknowned "researchers faction" of Thay with one of her lies (which Rhym WASN'T tricked, but Tam was).
My preference is for the book to be modified after Leira's demise -- because if she does it beforehand, we get another case of a deity foreseeing their demise and planning a reboot, rather than trying to stop it. I think that particular plot point is played out.
Though... Combining it with one of my previous ideas... I've noted that some of the deities in service to Mystra were former mortals, and suggested that perhaps all of them were, and we just didn't know the origin for the others.
Maybe this book was originally written for someone else to self-ascend, but then a mortal Leira grabbed it, tweaked it, and used it to drive her own ascension. Since she keyed it to herself, running thru the ritual would bring her back. However, that's not why the book was written -- so it's not just another divine reboot. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2018 : 22:05:33
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A couple of points (and obviously I need to finish those books) - you have the PERFECT opportunity to fix the lore BECAUSE My-something has TWO names. The one in the novel obviously was never her... it didn't even have the same name. That was a clone, while she was 'elsewhere' (perhaps Planeshopping - throw her into MtG for a few years LOL). It really seems like the simplest explanation. In fact, say it was some form of new uber-illusion clone she came up with, that was self-aware. Like the doctor in Star Trek: Voyager, and we already have one of those in-canon, in the the Pool of Twilight novel - Listle. She is a 'living illusion'.
As for saving Dmitra - I had a very complicated scenario involving her, coming back as a child, but after just rereading the abridged version of her story, i realized something...
She cast a powerful illusion on the guy killing her, just as he was killing her. According to what we 'saw' in the novel, it didn't work so well and he killed her anyway...
while he was still under the effects of an illusion spell... LET THAT SINK IN.
I like the idea that Szass Tam somehow got 'tricked' (more like, there was other text that could not be seen underlying parts of the book). Its very flavorful. But why stop there? especially since its canonical that the book can make someone nuts.
Easiest fix EVER: Szass Tam DID go crazy (didn't he even cast a spell that nearly broke his sanity?) The novels? He's in a sanitarium in Thay, rocking back-and-forth in an anti-magic straight-jacket, dreaming dreams about Dread Rings, and other things...
Everything in Thay is exactly the same as it was in the middle of the 3e era. Done. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Jan 2018 22:10:01 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2018 : 23:06:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Just a thought as well.... would it not be a most interesting twist if the Book of Fastrin the Delver... that set Tam down this path of despicable evil, and had Tam so convinced that if he completed this ritual he'd become a god.... was a holy relic of Leira, and its true purpose was to generate enough power to restore a god and/or gods... but the secret was so well hidden that "almighty Szass Tam" didn't see the truth.
I like this idea.
I'd tweak it a bit, though... Perhaps it was originally intended to raise a mortal to divinity, but after the ToT, a devout follower of Leira found the book, tweaked it a bit, and thus changed its purpose.
Zoink... stolen... yeah, I like that even better Wooly. I would actually though make it Leira herself changing the book, have her changing it DURING the ToT, and then specifically putting it somewhere where Druxus Rhym finds it. Maybe she changed it to generate enough energy to restore HER should she need it done.
In fact.... If Mythrell'aa had even temporarily served as the avatar of Leira (nothing says she has to remember it, as I can see Leira making her hosts forget the time that they served as her host)... she may have even set this in motion... and since it was Druxus Rhym that discovered the book, I can see Leira LOVING tricking a member of the reknowned "researchers faction" of Thay with one of her lies (which Rhym WASN'T tricked, but Tam was).
My preference is for the book to be modified after Leira's demise -- because if she does it beforehand, we get another case of a deity foreseeing their demise and planning a reboot, rather than trying to stop it. I think that particular plot point is played out.
Though... Combining it with one of my previous ideas... I've noted that some of the deities in service to Mystra were former mortals, and suggested that perhaps all of them were, and we just didn't know the origin for the others.
Maybe this book was originally written for someone else to self-ascend, but then a mortal Leira grabbed it, tweaked it, and used it to drive her own ascension. Since she keyed it to herself, running thru the ritual would bring her back. However, that's not why the book was written -- so it's not just another divine reboot.
My preference is for Leira's "death" to all be an illusion. A lie the queen of lies told everyone so she could sidestep all the death and dying of a particular century or two. THAT is godly, and badass.
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2018 : 23:07:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
A couple of points (and obviously I need to finish those books) - you have the PERFECT opportunity to fix the lore BECAUSE My-something has TWO names. The one in the novel obviously was never her... it didn't even have the same name. That was a clone, while she was 'elsewhere' (perhaps Planeshopping - throw her into MtG for a few years LOL). It really seems like the simplest explanation. In fact, say it was some form of new uber-illusion clone she came up with, that was self-aware. Like the doctor in Star Trek: Voyager, and we already have one of those in-canon, in the the Pool of Twilight novel - Listle. She is a 'living illusion'.
As for saving Dmitra - I had a very complicated scenario involving her, coming back as a child, but after just rereading the abridged version of her story, i realized something...
She cast a powerful illusion on the guy killing her, just as he was killing her. According to what we 'saw' in the novel, it didn't work so well and he killed her anyway...
while he was still under the effects of an illusion spell... LET THAT SINK IN.
I like the idea that Szass Tam somehow got 'tricked' (more like, there was other text that could not be seen underlying parts of the book). Its very flavorful. But why stop there? especially since its canonical that the book can make someone nuts.
Easiest fix EVER: Szass Tam DID go crazy (didn't he even cast a spell that nearly broke his sanity?) The novels? He's in a sanitarium in Thay, rocking back-and-forth in an anti-magic straight-jacket, dreaming dreams about Dread Rings, and other things...
Everything in Thay is exactly the same as it was in the middle of the 3e era. Done.
Yeah - I try not to go that far but sometimes its tempting :P
also, I forgot that spell battle totally.
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2018 : 23:44:50
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@Wooly
Actually, I'm not straying from some of the other stuff I've said for Leira. I don't think she died. I think she and Mask pulled a trick on him and she IS the Cyrinishad (btw, yet ANOTHER book which deludes folk into believing they are more powerful), though that's only one of her avatars. She then rode Cyric in his mind like a parasite until she needed to act as foreseen by Savras. Meanwhile Savras was relaying this special ritual out to the Halruaans, Yaphyll, and the Farseer of Tashluta wherein they enacted this strange form of cooperative dream magic which ripped a portion of the weave free in order to stabilize the transfer to Abeir.
However, During the ToT, maybe she wasn't sure what would happen, so she put the book out there as a trap... as maybe some means to guarantee if things went wrong she could come back... and maybe the time of the spellplague would have lasted centuries/millenia longer were it not that by chance someone tried to use the book and generated enough magical energy that she was able to feed it through to Mystra. Now, why would she help Mystra with the energy and not keep it herself? First, she is a servant of Mystra's, but second, maybe Mystra was the one which could undo the damage of the spellplague and help the gods return to Toril.... so she fed the energy to Mystra to get her ass out of Abeir, because she could tell that some of the dawn titans were starting to stir..... i.e. it was a move of desperation.
@Markustay
The one main problem with the Dmitra Flass faked her death thing, she was dedicated to freeing Thay and she hasn't been seen for a century. Whereas I can see Mythrell'aa faking her death, its not in Dmitra's character to do it long term.
Hmmm, and a thought just occurred to me on how I was planning on doing it. I was going to have the avatar of Velsharoon (in the form of Lauzoril's daughter Mimuay serving as temporary host) wake up both Lauzoril and Dmitra from clones. However, IF at that time I've got Yaphyll serving as a host for Savras and Mythrell'aa serving as a host for Leira.... I could see Mythrell'aa awakening Dmitra out of a sense of loyalty to a servant who might prove useful. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 07 Jan 2018 23:51:39 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2018 : 00:14:36
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Contingency gone bad. Dmitra casts her illusion, at first trying to convince Modok (whatever his name was) not to kill her, and when she realizes it isn't working, she switches it to him killing her, just like we saw. At the same time, she activates her contingency magic and teleports away. To her 'safehouse'... which Szass Tam knew about... {at this point we can do whatever we want with her - she is alive, everyone believes she is dead, and she is someone's prisoner... for a time).
If you want to do something really weird, say it isn't even Tam or one of his underlings. Her 'bolt-hole' was a well-stocked cave just outside of Thay. Some local farmer/whatever found it, and all the stuff in it, so he goes there and takes stuff all the time (nothing major like magical items - maybe some bags of gold she keeps there). One day while he's pilfering supplies*, Dmitra appears. She is badly wounded (he struck her, HARD, but hadn't killed her - that part was the illusion - she thr off his aim just a bit). So he carrieds her back to his house, where he ties her up but nurses her back to health. He also helps himself to... other things. When she wakes up she is living in a nightmare inconceivable by someone who once held amazing amounts of power over others. Of course, this would have changed her. Se may not be 'right in the head' anymore. As for Farmer Bahb, well, lets just say she eventually got loose, and he took a VERY long time to die (In this scenario, I might even give her an unwanted kid or two - children she would simultaneously hate and love).
And if you think I have a warped imagination, just imagine if it WAS Szass Tam, but the scenario remained the same... a new type of demilich, anyone?
After all, he does have to replace his pet Atropal. (sp?)
As for Leira, what if Mask IS Leira? Not that he's pretending to be her, more likely the other way around (Mask's really been Leira all along). He did seems to have an odd 'attraction' for Cyric for awhile. Transgender god, anyone?
And another thing this thread has made me aware of (or rather, probably just reminded me of) - the Darkmoon Orb. 'Dark moon', eh? like a second, dark (purple/invisible at night?) moon that Torillians are unaware of, or that has 'gone missing' at some point?
The book is about making/bringing back 'a god', and it makes people nuts. Who was this 'delver'? Didn't Ibrandul have 'delver' in one of his alias names? Could the orb and book have been meant to be used in conjunction (by the same person) all along? 
*And if you are wondering why she wouldn't have put any sorts of protections on her stuff, this can go two ways. She didn't, because all magic is traceable (and Szass Tam certainly knows her 'signature'). Or, she DID, but SPELLPLAGUE. Her wards/illusions dropped when the plague hit. That's probably also why she wasn't also instantly healed. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 08 Jan 2018 00:21:16 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2018 : 02:22:21
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The Darkmoon thing is too much like Nuitari from Dragonlance.
As for where Dmitra went, there's no reason to believe she was not fighting for Thay all along. Its not like we have an omnipresent view of everything. Also, she very easily could be acting in secret - the simplest illusions let you disguise yourself - because now she is on the top of the hit list for a very powerful wizard. Would you reveal yourself quickly? I sure wouldn't. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2018 : 12:07:21
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How about this:
After faking her own death, Mythrell’aa spent a great deal of time shoring up her personal alliances and building their combined magical and military power. For example, a team of roughly 100 Red Wizards loyal to her (many of these magically bound to her will over the years) was assigned to recover the wrecks of almost 50 ships along the shores of Alaor through implementation of the spells raise vessel and repair breech. These vessels were crewed by a combination of veteran Thayvian sailors and men trained by Tharchioness Thessaloni and her commanders. Working together the discounted and forgotten Thayvian Navy roughly tripled in size in the time it would normally take to build a single vessel.
Then, later, as Bezantur fell to the onslaught of Szass Tam’s undead legions, Mythrell’aa used her secret alliance with Thessaloni to organize a naval evacuation of the city; more exactly, of her allies within the city and other persons of power who she deemed too useful to abandon. Notable among these were several priests and priestess from the cities many temples including: High Priestess Mylra of Loviatar, High Priest Sharthane Zul Of Cyric, High Priestess Cothra of Bane, Priest-Captain Zeidero of Tempus, High Priests Mythalanir and Hylassra of Kossuth, Guildmistress Shabella the Pale, and High Priestess Dienje Xavarri of Iyachtu Xvim and her young son (believed by most to be sired by the Godson of Bane himself).
In a move to appease the wicked goddess of the seas, three whole galleys were dedicated to evacuating the Temple of Umberlee. High priestess Alyssa was followed by her staff of over 100 lesser priests, priestesses and acolytes who emptied the entire temple. Treasures that could not be carried away to Alaor were offered to Umberlee en route.
The rest of the fleet was dedicated to evacuating those Tharchions (and their retinues) able to relocate to the city, a combined force of almost 5,000. Tharchioness Nymia Focar, Tharchion Milsantros Daramos, Tharchion Hezass Nymur, and Tharchion Homen Odesseiron all survived to join with the “rebels” on Alaor. |
Edited by - The Masked Mage on 08 Jan 2018 12:07:52 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2018 : 13:29:07
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Just to note, not Darkmoon orb... Death Moon Orb. Also, the death moon orb to keep track of it, exploded during the first few moments of the spellplague and while in Szass Tam's hands.
Which THAT name makes me actually think of Myrkul....
From the Mere of Dead Men series in Dungeon #73
"...the power of Myrkul always waxed when an infrequent and relatively unknown astronomical phenomena known as The Eye of Myrkul appeared in the night sky. This event involving the passage of a new moon through a certain ring of seven stars associated with an old symbol of Mystra."
However, there are also things to link it to Shar and the shadow weave OR even to some kind of involvement with Abeir (seeing the negative image of the moon could be seeing the moon from Abeir). This might have something to do with its explosion during the moments of the spellplague.
The Death Moon Orb is a gleaming sphere whose black and violet colors swim uneasily together, like oil on water, and which appears to actually absorb the light around it. When it is nearby, an aura of gloom and sadness prevails. Those who look upon it long enough can see the negative image of the moon#146;s surface glimmering faintly on the Orb. For mysterious reasons, the Orb changes in size from time to time from a sphere that fills a large human male#146;s hand to about the size of a large human#146;s head.
Not exactly sure what to do with it, but just trying to line up the facts.
On the Dmitra thing.... I guess I could buy her "retreating" to Mulmaster... I just don't see her staying hidden. She is a personality that wants to be seen and treated special. However, that being said, she might do that under a new name. What exactly do we KNOW about what happened in Mulmaster succession-wise?
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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How many "undead" related things are near Narfell
