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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11819 Posts |
 Posted - 31 Dec 2017 : 15:44:49
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So, as I was just discussing what I would maybe like to see happen with the western shaar and chondalwood, I noted that Innarlith is in ruins in 4e. So, the first thing that pops in my head when I see ruins these days is "it went to Abeir partially".... and it being so close to the Chondalwood that's not out of the picture. So, then I noted that the last magister (Talatha Vaerovree) that we have documented (from Secrets of the Magister and Magic of Faerun) is from Innarlith. Given the idea of "why kill off all our old archmages" my thoughts are... why not have her transfer to Abeir. In fact, maybe she worked with the Halruaans on their spell to stabilize and transfer their homeland. Afterwards maybe she finds her city beset by danger, and she and her people flee south to Halruaa. Thus, we can have after the spellplague the city of Innarlith returned but entirely inhabited by whatever we like. The city may not be repaired, and in fact it may now be surrounded by jungle with a century to grow up.
My first thought here is to turn Innarlith into a surface city of evil drow. Maybe they've enslaved a portion of the human populace that was in the city.
Anyway, this would put the current magister as having spent the last century in Halruaa and possibly wanting to lead her people back to their homeland.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36801 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2017 : 16:20:48
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| That's three or four human generations... Unless the survivors banded together and basically hammered it into their offspring that they needed to reclaim their homeland, a lot of the displaced folks are eventually going to go native. And even those that don't will still question leaving a secure home to attack an entrenched (and likely larger) army to reclaim a place their parents never even saw. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2017 : 16:50:08
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4e = "Its in ruins!"
5e = "And by 'ruins', we mean one side of a shed partially collapsed. Well, not really collapsed, but it did get scuffed-up pretty bad."
But seriously, not everything had to change. Most of the stuff could easily just be "rumors of my demise were greatly exaggerated". It was an apocalypse. News was coming in from everywhere about just about everything 'blowing up'. Tons of that information could have been false. Was it canon in 4e? YES. Does it still need to be canon? NO... absolutely not. If the company making the products can completely disregard their own canon time & time again, we, the fans, (who were NEVER obligated to do so) certainly don't have to go by any of it.
I'm actually getting a little bored with 'surface drow'. How about 'surface everything'? I want a town/city that's like the Mos Eisley spaceport (with an illithid band playing the same damn annoying song over and over again). One of my favorite illustrations of 3e is the one from Unappraochable east that shows an Orc purchasing stuff in a Theskan market. In a world like FR, why don't we have more cosmopolitan settlements? Especially after a gods-damned cataclysm!
For example, in 5e, why would Waterdeep still have a 'shoot on sight' policy against drow, or even orcs? Just as ST:tNG had a Klingon Starfleet officer, after the peace agreement between the Silver Marches (part of the Lord's Alliance WITH Waterdeep) and Many Arrows, why can't law-abiding orcs walk around in Northern towns? And with all the weirdness of the 'brown elves' of 4e, and Drizzt's exploits, I would think entry into Waterdeep should be merit-based. If I reall correctly, there were Minotaur temple-guards or some-such that worked in Waterdeep. Minotaurs can walk around unsupervised but Drow can't?
Waterdeep, at least, in 5e should be that kind of place. I want to see an illithid buy a new dress (or whatever it is they wear) from a vendor. I want to see Orcs working dockside. I want to see an Aboleth crime lord! In another thread the Age of Worms AP came up, and there is a 'gentleman' Quoggoth - he wears a suit and smokes a pipe! Thats the kind of things I think we need to start seeing. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 31 Dec 2017 17:24:29 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36801 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2017 : 17:04:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
4e = "Its in ruins!"
5e = "And by 'ruins', we mean one side of a shed partially collapsed. Well, not really collapsed, but it did get scuffed-up pretty bad."
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I'm actually getting a little bored with 'surface drow'. How about 'surface everything'? I want a town/city that's like the Mos Eisley spaceport (with an illithid band playing the same damn annoying song over and over again).
Hey, Figrin D'an and the Modal Nodes played at least two songs in the movie! |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 31 Dec 2017 17:30:05 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2017 : 18:11:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
That's three or four human generations... Unless the survivors banded together and basically hammered it into their offspring that they needed to reclaim their homeland, a lot of the displaced folks are eventually going to go native. And even those that don't will still question leaving a secure home to attack an entrenched (and likely larger) army to reclaim a place their parents never even saw.
-That's basically what the Shadovar did. They were all a little more tightly-knit, but |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 31 Dec 2017 18:13:23 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11819 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2017 : 22:14:35
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Well, didn't we stick a Mos Eisley cantina down in the Shaar a few months back? I could have sworn it had a loxo singer singing out of two trunks and a thri-kreen guitarist or something and some wemic backup dancers/chorus girls.
On the surface drow... yeah, I retract that... that was a bad idea. Still, I do like the idea of using that magister for something in Abeir involving Mystra and possibly Halruaa. It could be interesting to fill Innarlith with something other than humans too. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36801 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2017 : 23:44:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
That's three or four human generations... Unless the survivors banded together and basically hammered it into their offspring that they needed to reclaim their homeland, a lot of the displaced folks are eventually going to go native. And even those that don't will still question leaving a secure home to attack an entrenched (and likely larger) army to reclaim a place their parents never even saw.
-That's basically what the Shadovar did. They were all a little more tightly-knit, but
The difference is, though, that the Shadovar were in a very hostile place, and the leader that took them there was still around to bring them back. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11819 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2017 : 23:59:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
That's three or four human generations... Unless the survivors banded together and basically hammered it into their offspring that they needed to reclaim their homeland, a lot of the displaced folks are eventually going to go native. And even those that don't will still question leaving a secure home to attack an entrenched (and likely larger) army to reclaim a place their parents never even saw.
-That's basically what the Shadovar did. They were all a little more tightly-knit, but
The difference is, though, that the Shadovar were in a very hostile place, and the leader that took them there was still around to bring them back.
Ok, let's take it another direction then. The humans of Innarlith DIDN'T escape, but the magister did. The humans have been enslaved... and what the hell, lets go ahead and if we're going to be enslaving them, let's let it be a dragonlord and his dragonborn servants (the same one that I was talking about having in the far Western Shaar above Halruaa). So, its a century later. The magister has been living in Halruaa where magic still worked. Meanwhile, in Innarlith, arcane magic didn't work.... but now she and it are back on Toril. So, the magister wants to recruit adventurers to help free the oppressed humans in Innarlith (maybe not all at once). Maybe she's even developed an "underground railroad" type scenario and needs some help. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2018 : 01:35:59
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She may have, but very unlikely. You see, Ed killed her off in his short story "The Many Murders of Manshoon" in the Realms of the Dead anthology.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2018 : 05:29:50
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| Remember this is a magic world - contingent resurrection anybody? :P |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36801 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2018 : 05:45:40
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Remember this is a magic world - contingent resurrection anybody? :P
Magisters do have options to return to existence after their time as a Magister, though not as a mortal spellcaster. It's in Secrets of the Magister. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2018 : 10:31:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Remember this is a magic world - contingent resurrection anybody? :P
Magisters do have options to return to existence after their time as a Magister, though not as a mortal spellcaster. It's in Secrets of the Magister.
They are also allowed their own means of self restoration, as the Mantle of office passes with their death, any post-death contingency (like an Elminster's Evasion, for example). Also, there is nothing about being Magister that prevents undeath.
I figure many of them have done so..
One of my fun little Realms hobbies is to give details to res'd or undead former Magisters :) |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11819 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2018 : 12:16:20
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
She may have, but very unlikely. You see, Ed killed her off in his short story "The Many Murders of Manshoon" in the Realms of the Dead anthology.
-- George Krashos
Thank you George. That's exactly the information I was looking for (i.e. is she still the Magister). At this point then, I'll drop the thought of using her then. I don't recall that story, just curious, what happened with her? On a sidenote, man becoming magister MUST be effectively a death sentence.
I'll take it from this that we have no knowledge of any replacement magister, and the next major servant of Azuth was the one from the Brimstone Angels series. So, in theory, she may have been the last magister? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11819 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2018 : 12:48:00
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Oh, just a sidenote, because even if Talatha is no longer the magister, we can make still use Innarlith... but one thing I didn't note above but its something to think about in scenarios like this... so I was saying possibly a dragonlord and dragonborn servants (which isn't concrete), but I would specify that the dragonlord would likely stay in Abeir, and he's simply lost a small city filled with dragonborn. It could also be interesting if these aren't dragonborn but something that is similar enough that the local populace is confused and dragonborn are accused of atrocities (say dragonkin ... or half-dragon lizard folk). Of course, this can also be done whether we transfer Innarlith to Abeir or not. If the city was just ruined by the spellplague and no one wanted to visit there anymore (which is a very likely reason for it to fail actually.... sometimes it helps to talk stuff out....) but now the second sundering has happened.... it may very well be that a portion of the Chondalwood has been taken over by forces from abeir. Maybe the wild elves and ghostwise halflings gave up territory, and when things stabilize, these forces from Abeir find Innarlith (still standing, but covered in vines), and they begin recovering it and using it as a base to raid from (there's probably no treasure here, but simply having viable stone structures helps).
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36801 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2018 : 15:31:36
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
On a sidenote, man becoming magister MUST be effectively a death sentence.
That's what I don't get about the Magister gig... The Magister is supposed to be a servant of Mystra, but a large part of Magister-ing is running from mages who want to take that title from you.
To me, it would be more reasonable if the Magister was basically hidden from all other mages, so they could go about their service in peace and actually accomplish something. Or maybe if only Mystra and her most trusted servants even knew there was a Magister. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2018 : 16:13:29
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I agree with Wooly - I could never really wrap my head around The Magister. Seems more like a curse bestowed by a cruel god.
As for whether The Magicter is alive or dead; Canon-schmanon. The only people who care about continuity any more are the people at WotC...
Oh wait... no they don't. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 Jan 2018 16:14:11 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2018 : 23:11:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I agree with Wooly - I could never really wrap my head around The Magister. Seems more like a curse bestowed by a cruel god.
As for whether The Magicter is alive or dead; Canon-schmanon. The only people who care about continuity any more are the people at WotC...
Oh wait... no they don't.
The Magister makes perfect sense to me. The office of Magister is the spectacle... which is the core of every advertising campaign ever: the wizard they can point to and say see - THAT is real power.
It is also the outlet for the foolish and power mad to direct their spell upon instead of the world at large, as well as the coveted prize that drives all such in the creation of ever new and greater magic.
The Magister is the most "Mystra" thing about the realms if you ask me. It was the preponderance of goody-goody Chosen that never made sense to me - Mystra's choice of Chosen is not even a little Neutral. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36801 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2018 : 23:22:43
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I agree with Wooly - I could never really wrap my head around The Magister. Seems more like a curse bestowed by a cruel god.
As for whether The Magicter is alive or dead; Canon-schmanon. The only people who care about continuity any more are the people at WotC...
Oh wait... no they don't.
The Magister makes perfect sense to me. The office of Magister is the spectacle... which is the core of every advertising campaign ever: the wizard they can point to and say see - THAT is real power.
It is also the outlet for the foolish and power mad to direct their spell upon instead of the world at large, as well as the coveted prize that drives all such in the creation of ever new and greater magic.
The Magister is the most "Mystra" thing about the realms if you ask me. It was the preponderance of goody-goody Chosen that never made sense to me - Mystra's choice of Chosen is not even a little Neutral.
Well of course not. She wants magic spread for the benefit of all -- and benefitting everyone is something goodly folk would be inclined to do, not neutrals, and certainly not evil folk. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2018 : 23:28:49
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quote:
They are also allowed their own means of self restoration, as the Mantle of office passes with their death, any post-death contingency (like an Elminster's Evasion, for example). Also, there is nothing about being Magister that prevents undeath.
I figure many of them have done so..
One of my fun little Realms hobbies is to give details to res'd or undead former Magisters :)
Mystra's Magister is always given a choice upon their defeat (which does not, necessarily, mean death) to transform into something else. Some have become Chosen (Noumea Darthchuld took this option), others have become shadowstaves, others have become dragons, magical 'fields' or items of power. I suppose one could become undead but I don't know of any that took that option and I think Mystra would frown/prevent such a choice because one cannot become Magister if they're undead...but I may be wrong on that point. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2018 : 23:33:31
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quote:
That's what I don't get about the Magister gig... The Magister is supposed to be a servant of Mystra, but a large part of Magister-ing is running from mages who want to take that title from you.
To me, it would be more reasonable if the Magister was basically hidden from all other mages, so they could go about their service in peace and actually accomplish something. Or maybe if only Mystra and her most trusted servants even knew there was a Magister.
One Magister referred to the position as Mystra's Honeyed Trap. I think the previous Mystra (the Lawful Neutral one that fell during the Avatar Crisis) created the office to give mages something to strive for (as in those that she would never consider making her Chosen). It also seems to me that the office carried an important lesson: That all power comes with a price.
As to your second point/idea. I agree. With Mystra now restored it's possible that a new Magister could be elevated in secret with no chance of losing the position by being challenged and defeated. They can work in secret with Mystra's blessing and, when the time comes, they may step down or be removed from office by Mystra to appoint another.
I rather like the idea of the Magister being secret, in fact. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2018 : 23:36:29
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| Oh and one other thing. Talatha was killed off as GK mentioned...but that doesn't mean Elminster, who knows many secrets and could reasonably deduce Mystra's will despite the fact that she was 'gone' at the time, couldn't have transformed Talatha into something else. So she could still be around, just as someone or something else. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2018 : 00:02:31
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The Choice is not given to EVERY Magister - only those deemed worthy. Several Magisters were magisters for only a moment for example. Imagine one such had a Velsharoon's death pact in effect at the time he accidentally became Magister - this would not be undone. So he or she would be Magister, die and then be ress'd by Velsharoon. I'd argue the same applies for Lichnee.
Also, I believe the "restored" Mystra is the old Mystra - pre TOT Mystra. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2018 : 00:13:06
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quote:
The Choice is not given to EVERY Magister - only those deemed worthy. Several Magisters were magisters for only a moment for example. Imagine one such had a Velsharoon's death pact in effect at the time he accidentally became Magister - this would not be undone. So he or she would be Magister, die and then be ress'd by Velsharoon. I'd argue the same applies for Lichnee.
True, but then I'd argue that such individuals aren't actually Magisters in Mystra's view and I am aware that some individuals weren't worthy because they didn't have time to spread magic and gain the option of Mystra's Choice. Obviously, I didn't mean 'always' to be taken literally, but your point is taken.
quote:
Also, I believe the "restored" Mystra is the old Mystra - pre TOT Mystra.
As for this: Do you have a source for this (because I'd reeeeeally love to read it) or is this supposition? Or at least deduced from evidence you've seen (if so, please point me to it). |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11819 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2018 : 01:42:03
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
Oh and one other thing. Talatha was killed off as GK mentioned...but that doesn't mean Elminster, who knows many secrets and could reasonably deduce Mystra's will despite the fact that she was 'gone' at the time, couldn't have transformed Talatha into something else. So she could still be around, just as someone or something else.
Don't feel like pulling up the book. How exactly did she die and possibly just as importantly where? Not that I plan on using her now, but it could be interesting if there's some weave ghost or something similar stuck in this ruined city of Innarlith whenever "bad things" show up..... or maybe she was a weave ghost when the spellplague happened and the Halruaans did their spell and she went crazy and someone needs to restore her sanity. Hell, maybe she "sacrificed herself" to create a fledgling mythal to protect some of the populace from the sweeping blue fire (and you can still talk to that sentience). Maybe afterward, due to her sacrifice, the people of this city on Abeir still could cast magic. Hell, maybe her sentient mythal became an "avatar" form for Auppenser on Abeir, because the people in that area had so much Jhaamdathi blood that they were "awakened" psionically. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2018 : 02:02:40
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| I can't remember the exact details but she was killed by Manshoon after the Spellplague hit. As I recall, she was working with Elminster to thwart one of his schemes. Sorry I can't provide more info at the moment. If someone hasn't chimed in by tomorrow I'll try to find the book the story is in and look it up for you. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11819 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2018 : 14:02:06
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
I can't remember the exact details but she was killed by Manshoon after the Spellplague hit. As I recall, she was working with Elminster to thwart one of his schemes. Sorry I can't provide more info at the moment. If someone hasn't chimed in by tomorrow I'll try to find the book the story is in and look it up for you.
Hmmm, now I'm even more intrigued because I hadn't even considered the story possibly being post-spellplague. I may have to dig it up myself and reread it. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2018 : 17:32:41
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| Who is the current Magister BTW? |
Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2018 : 22:16:57
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I'm going to look it up now (if I can find the book that is) but if memory serves, Talatha actually took the appearance of Elminster as bait for Manshoon. I'll get back to you on it in a bit.
@Shadowsoul: As for as I know there isn't one but I could be wrong. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2018 : 22:20:56
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| Think that is either Die El Die or Bury El Deep |
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Magister Talatha Vaerovree of Innarlith & Noumea
