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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
 Posted - 30 Dec 2017 : 23:26:59
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| Kinda, but I would want the elves to wipe out Tethyr |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2017 : 00:01:45
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Lol, TBeholder, quit pointing out that we kinda discussed this years ago. That's not fun! (well maybe it is).
I know we are walking in circles either way - but we could at least try to walk in larger circles. 
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
anyway.. moving on, jhaamdath sucks( I hate it if you cant tell)
See, this sort of remarks can make people think you joined during 3.x era. 
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I think that all such threads forget one basic thing, elves are envied and despised throughout Toril and Realmspace and the Planes beyond. That's canon.
Yup. It's amazing how there are various human peoples who barely can agree on anything at all - let alone vastly different creatures - and one of the few things on which most of them somehow managed to agree is that the elves are arrogant, snobbish, narcissistic jerks. A little miracle of the Multiverse.  |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
Edited by - TBeholder on 31 Dec 2017 00:05:30 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2017 : 00:18:34
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
They are constantly in defense mode. Now, sometimes they go a bit overboard and wipe out a continent or two in their over-zealous response, but can you blame them?
I guess this is sarcasm, but yes, it's only right to blame them. Even taking Evermeet as an example, setting aside all arguable magical consequences or whatever (which they might or might not have been aware of), when you rip a continet apart, bad things happen. The elves just rolled with it.
That said, having a character or group of character do some really nasty stuff in a story, and then using some assumed threat (and remember that back when they created Evermeet, the elves were among the rulers of Faerun, the only perceived threat were some groups of dark elves) or difficult past as an excuse to say that they're actually free of responsibility is IMO just cheap storytelling. I wouldn't want more of that in the Realms.
quote:
Even the many elf vs. elf wars were actually elf vs. devil-corrupted-elf wars. Or demon. Or whoever.
The Crown Wars--the largest among those wars--weren't, they only became anything close to that towards the end, and even then it was only the rulers of Ilythiir and Aryvandaar and their lackeys to be corrupted, not the random people.
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Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2017 : 06:26:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
They are constantly in defense mode. Now, sometimes they go a bit overboard and wipe out a continent or two in their over-zealous response, but can you blame them?
I guess this is sarcasm, but yes, it's only right to blame them. Even taking Evermeet as an example, setting aside all arguable magical consequences or whatever (which they might or might not have been aware of), when you rip a continet apart, bad things happen. The elves just rolled with it.
That said, having a character or group of character do some really nasty stuff in a story, and then using some assumed threat (and remember that back when they created Evermeet, the elves were among the rulers of Faerun, the only perceived threat were some groups of dark elves) or difficult past as an excuse to say that they're actually free of responsibility is IMO just cheap storytelling. I wouldn't want more of that in the Realms.
quote:
Even the many elf vs. elf wars were actually elf vs. devil-corrupted-elf wars. Or demon. Or whoever.
The Crown Wars--the largest among those wars--weren't, they only became anything close to that towards the end, and even then it was only the rulers of Ilythiir and Aryvandaar and their lackeys to be corrupted, not the random people.
All of the crown wars were the result of Planar influence:
First the Vyshaantar's aggression a la Malkazid
Second Ilythiir, an entire race of dark elves tainted by demons.
Third, Back to the Vyshaantar aggression
Fourth, Back to Ilythiir (revenge for Killing Storms)
Fifth, Back to the Vyshaantar (after they were called out by the Elven Court)
The only ones we know of to be corrupted directly were the rulers and the high mages... but I doubt that the corruption ended there. If you embrace devilish power at a systemic level you would spread it out think body snatchers :)...
As far as cheap storytelling goes, I think literally ALL the history we have for the realms in ancient times is cheap story telling. Think about it - they had these giant gaps of time black and filled em in with ... War 1 war 2 war 3 war 4 war 5. Then people took that and ran with it and made one or two interesting stories but mostly its pretty much garbage. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2017 : 13:40:26
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
They are constantly in defense mode. Now, sometimes they go a bit overboard and wipe out a continent or two in their over-zealous response, but can you blame them?
I guess this is sarcasm, but yes, it's only right to blame them. Even taking Evermeet as an example, setting aside all arguable magical consequences or whatever (which they might or might not have been aware of), when you rip a continet apart, bad things happen. The elves just rolled with it.
That said, having a character or group of character do some really nasty stuff in a story, and then using some assumed threat (and remember that back when they created Evermeet, the elves were among the rulers of Faerun, the only perceived threat were some groups of dark elves) or difficult past as an excuse to say that they're actually free of responsibility is IMO just cheap storytelling. I wouldn't want more of that in the Realms.
quote:
Even the many elf vs. elf wars were actually elf vs. devil-corrupted-elf wars. Or demon. Or whoever.
The Crown Wars--the largest among those wars--weren't, they only became anything close to that towards the end, and even then it was only the rulers of Ilythiir and Aryvandaar and their lackeys to be corrupted, not the random people.
All of the crown wars were the result of Planar influence:
First the Vyshaantar's aggression a la Malkazid
Second Ilythiir, an entire race of dark elves tainted by demons.
Third, Back to the Vyshaantar aggression
Fourth, Back to Ilythiir (revenge for Killing Storms)
Fifth, Back to the Vyshaantar (after they were called out by the Elven Court)
The only ones we know of to be corrupted directly were the rulers and the high mages... but I doubt that the corruption ended there. If you embrace devilish power at a systemic level you would spread it out think body snatchers :)...
Your random farmer or worker wasn't corrupted, simply because the corruption stemmed from accepting a pact with those outsiders, or directly mating with them. I honestly doubt that commoners had anything to do with that (or even had any idea about how to make a pact with a demon).
Besides, the planar influence didn't come on its own. Those rulers/mages/priests summoned those demons seeking that kind of pact. They definitely brought it upon themselves.
quote:
As far as cheap storytelling goes, I think literally ALL the history we have for the realms in ancient times is cheap story telling. Think about it - they had these giant gaps of time black and filled em in with ... War 1 war 2 war 3 war 4 war 5. Then people took that and ran with it and made one or two interesting stories but mostly its pretty much garbage.
That's because that part of Faerun's history is mostly for background, and for an explanation of the status quo. It's not storytelling, more like little snippets of the past--even in Evermeet we only see that in very broad strokes. Besides, that's more vague than cheap. Elves being immune to responsibility (especially when hubris made them blind to the consequences of their actions) because "oh, the world is so mean to us" is definitely cheap, tho. They already are *the* Mary-Sue race, we don't need them to become even more so. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 31 Dec 2017 13:44:50 |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2017 : 14:37:37
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I have always envied Corellon, because he is opposed by many but keeps besting them throughout the ages with style. He elevates the best parts of high civilization, i.e. the crafts, wizardry and warfare, to heights of perfection that enable him a graceful solution to any problem.
His hubris gets him in trouble, but he makes no empty promises. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2018 : 05:26:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Your random farmer or worker wasn't corrupted, simply because the corruption stemmed from accepting a pact with those outsiders, or directly mating with them. I honestly doubt that commoners had anything to do with that (or even had any idea about how to make a pact with a demon).
Besides, the planar influence didn't come on its own. Those rulers/mages/priests summoned those demons seeking that kind of pact. They definitely brought it upon themselves.
That is all assumption. If I am a corrupted king it would be in my interests that the lay people are also corrupted, lest there be a popular uprising. Technically imps and quasits have the ability to corrupt so why not?
Also, we know Malkazid DID come on his own, manipulating people into summoning him or whatever. I think it started more as him magically whispering to the Isovar and then spreading out tendrils of influence from there like the plague
Remember he had a literal army of devils, and probably got the elves to summon each one and make pacts with them 1 by 1 over 1000 years. No telling how far the actual corruption was spread. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2018 : 05:49:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Besides, the planar influence didn't come on its own. Those rulers/mages/priests summoned those demons seeking that kind of pact. They definitely brought it upon themselves.
Actually, stories of magic often include tales of those whose corruption was slow and by degrees, and who started off with the best of intentions. Similarly, it's not uncommon for a spellcaster to make a bargain with a fell power, either unaware of who he/she was dealing with, or with the mistaken belief that they were smart enough or strong to come out ahead or at the least unscathed.
All it takes is one fool to make the wrong bargain, and thus give some Lower Plane nastybad a toehold into that society. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 01 Jan 2018 05:52:13 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2018 : 11:33:41
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
That is all assumption. If I am a corrupted king it would be in my interests that the lay people are also corrupted, lest there be a popular uprising. Technically imps and quasits have the ability to corrupt so why not?
We know that those who were using those powers did so in secret. There's also nothing that I recall about planar influence spreading to commoners, it was always the most powerful individuals and their lackeys. What I'm saying is that on both sides of those wars the commoners had likely nothing to do with planar powers, but then commoners usually also have little to do with the wars themselves, so that was more like a side note to point out that the war wasn't elves vs, planar-corrupted elves. It was elves vs. elves, with one o both sides led by people who had made pacts with outsiders.
quote:
Also, we know Malkazid DID come on his own, manipulating people into summoning him or whatever. I think it started more as him magically whispering to the Isovar and then spreading out tendrils of influence from there like the plague
Remember he had a literal army of devils, and probably got the elves to summon each one and make pacts with them 1 by 1 over 1000 years. No telling how far the actual corruption was spread.
You're right that Malkizid went to the elves on his own, but would you say that those who made a pact with him should be considered free of guilt just for that?
For all their assumed experience and foresight, the elves have a very strong tendency to be extremely carefree about doing stuff that can obviously lead to very nasty consequences. They can indeed be blamed for those mistakes, just like other races can be blamed for theirs. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 01 Jan 2018 13:16:57 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2018 : 23:21:48
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All I'm saying is there has never been a word published about the lesser elves of those empires. No way to know they were not corrupted as well.
My assumption would be that Malkizid tricked the first 100 or so into their pacts. He of course didn't come out and say "I'm an archdevil and I hate your Gods and through you nasty elvses will burn!" He said, "there are ancient secrets of power that you haven't learned yet... when I fought at corellon's side in so and so battle we did this - be my little buddy and I will teach you! I've looked so long to find one who was worthy, which of course you are" Pride before the fall :P
Then they got the power and were hooked - and probably also magically bound - to him. The only reason what'-his-name from the Last Mythal books chose and Eldarin is because his ancestor in the kiira was bound to tell him the truth that it was possible. I doubt Malk ever did the same "do the ritual like this or you will fail" kind of thing. Once its done, its too late for regrets and they got ahold of another elf soul.
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2018 : 21:39:30
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I must be one of the few people in these halls who like elves (though I agree they can be arrogant, and have made some dumb mistakes). But they have always been my favorite race, across fantasy.
And I am probably the only person here who likes Corellon (though he isn't infallible). I don't know why I even came to this thread LOL. Yeah the Descent was a BIG oopie, though ironically it gave us another cool (imo) race, the drow, even if it "damned" them. The CW and the (first) Sundering are not proud moments in elven history, but it doesn't make me despise them. I hate the events, not the race. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 03 Jan 2018 21:47:49 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2018 : 21:51:07
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| After a while, FR started messing up the elves, in my opinion. At first, they were obviously the victims - on the run from everyone and only hanging on by their fingernails. Then they came up with the ancient history that basically blames the elves for all their problems with every races, including but not limited to humans, dragons, even the drow. How things got so messed up that the descent of the drow is morally ambiguous is beyond me. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2018 : 21:59:26
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@The Masked Mage. Yes, we have no official lore about the commoners, but you'd think that the effects of corruption would become evident far before it spread to the majority of the populace, that you'd see some internal conflict worthy of mention. Many commoners could also start to pray to those dark entities out of fear, rather than because they truly mean it, and I wouldn't call that corruption. The idea of a whole people becoming twisted, especially when their gods were watching (and when those very gods are shown to be very heavy handed in handling this sort of stuff) sounds quite far fetched to me.
As for summoning Malkizid, if we use that reasoning then I guess that no one can be ever blamed for that kind of stuff. After all, even the Sethomir ruling house only asked for planar support in fear of and Aryvandaari invasion. Should they be considered guilt-free too?
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I must be one of the few people in these halls who like elves (though I agree they can be arrogant, and have made some dumb mistakes). But they have always been my favorite race, across fantasy.
And I am probably the only person here who likes Corellon (though he isn't infallible). I don't know why I even came to this thread LOL.
I like Corellon and the elves as characters, including their flaws. I don't like narrative that tries to find excuses for them to not take responsibility for their actions. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2018 : 22:04:19
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
After a while, FR started messing up the elves, in my opinion. At first, they were obviously the victims - on the run from everyone and only hanging on by their fingernails. Then they came up with the ancient history that basically blames the elves for all their problems with every races, including but not limited to humans, dragons, even the drow. How things got so messed up that the descent of the drow is morally ambiguous is beyond me.
Personally, I find this far more compelling, because it offers a more nuanced story rather than reducing races to stereotypes of "always good and right" and "always evil and wrong". The thing is, we know that Ed never does moral absolutes, and we don't know how the story of the elves and drow looked like in his Realms before TSR added lore to it. We do know that Eilistraee is part of his Realms, tho, so I don't find it very likely that he meant the whole drow vs elves matter to be morally black and white. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2018 : 22:12:23
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I actually think the elves and the Seldarine have been punished for their actions, it's just not as explicitly stated. People (myself included) often mention and/or lament the inactivity of the elven pantheon. What if this stems from the fact they are restricted in what they do (ToT aside) because of historical events/disasters? The elves in turn have seen their empires falls (after the CW), again and again. Yes, some of it was due to their own hubris, but there were outside influences, too. And the Seldarine have only acted at the last minute or when things get really dire because that is the only time they are *permitted* to do so, based on their past actions?
I've just always liked elves (not just in FR). I like their race as a whole, even if there have been individuals I dislike. I can see some reasons why people dislike them, or certain aspects, but I don't understand the all-around hate. Their xenophobia and prejudice are nothing new. All the races are guilty of such things. The elves can just be more...vocal about it. Anyway, I've said my piece. I don't think elf-hate is the scroll for me LOL> |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2018 : 22:30:06
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I actually think the elves and the Seldarine have been punished for their actions, it's just not as explicitly stated. People (myself included) often mention and/or lament the inactivity of the elven pantheon. What if this stems from the fact they are restricted in what they do (ToT aside) because of historical events/disasters? The elves in turn have seen their empires falls (after the CW), again and again. Yes, some of it was due to their own hubris, but there were outside influences, too. And the Seldarine have only acted at the last minute or when things get really dire because that is the only time they are *permitted* to do so, based on their past actions?
I've just always liked elves (not just in FR). I like their race as a whole, even if there have been individuals I dislike. I can see some reasons why people dislike them, or certain aspects, but I don't understand the all-around hate. Their xenophobia and prejudice are nothing new. All the races are guilty of such things. The elves can just be more...vocal about it. Anyway, I've said my piece. I don't think elf-hate is the scroll for me LOL>
I meant to say that I don't think that their hardships should be seen as an excuse for them to not be held responsible of the lives that they have carelessly taken. That's like saying that someone who murdered an innocent person should be forgiven if they had a harsh life. I short, I don't agree with people closing an eye on stuff like the (first) Sundering, or claiming that the elves had all the rights to do it. The elves are just as morally dirty as your next human.
In world, the elves have indeed faced the consequences of their actions, but they have brought most of those tragedies upon themselves (not the Seldarine, tho. They just sit there in their precious Arvandor and do nothing 24/7. Sounds like they're living the good life to me). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 03 Jan 2018 23:38:32 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2018 : 04:32:58
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| -Here's a neither here nor there question, but why wouldn't Elves have the "right" to cast the Sundering? Terra-forming, controlling the weather, all that stuff is somewhat common in the history of the planet among groups from all different races. Nothing as big as the Sundering, no doubt, but using magic to 'adjust' stuff you don't like (as a person, as a group, as a nation, etc.) seems pretty common. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2018 : 13:29:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Here's a neither here nor there question, but why wouldn't Elves have the "right" to cast the Sundering? Terra-forming, controlling the weather, all that stuff is somewhat common in the history of the planet among groups from all different races. Nothing as big as the Sundering, no doubt, but using magic to 'adjust' stuff you don't like (as a person, as a group, as a nation, etc.) seems pretty common.
Why would they (or anyone) have any right to obviously unleash a natural cataclysm? As I said before in this thread, even setting aside the side effects of such a spell (that may or may not have been known to them), ripping a continent apart has very obvious consequences. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2018 : 14:35:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Here's a neither here nor there question, but why wouldn't Elves have the "right" to cast the Sundering? Terra-forming, controlling the weather, all that stuff is somewhat common in the history of the planet among groups from all different races. Nothing as big as the Sundering, no doubt, but using magic to 'adjust' stuff you don't like (as a person, as a group, as a nation, etc.) seems pretty common.
Why would they (or anyone) have any right to obviously unleash a natural cataclysm? As I said before in this thread, even setting aside the side effects of such a spell (that may or may not have been known to them), ripping a continent apart has very obvious consequences.
That wasn't their goal, though. They were trying to raise an island out in the middle of the ocean. Why wouldn't they have the right to create an isolated homeland? |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2018 : 18:48:31
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-Here are some groups I can think of that have had an impact on changing the planet in some way:
-Amaunatori priesthood in Elversult (Second sun)
-Calim (creation of the Calim Desert)
-Drow (creation of the Great Rift)
-Elves (various)
-Imaskari Humans (various)
-Memnon (creation of the Calim Desert)
-Mulhorandi Pantheon (creation of the Raurin Desert)
-Netherese Humans (various)
-Netherese Shadovar (reclaiming the Anauroch)
-Phaerimm (creation of the Anauroch Desert)
-Protanther (possible creation of The Great Glacier)
-Thayvian Humans (various)
-Ulutiu(possible creation of The Great Glacier)
-Untheric Pantheon (creation of the Raurin Desert) |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2018 : 19:21:21
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I don't know, though. Those all seem like 'posers', compared to shattering the proto-continent (basically, the entirety of all the landmass on Toril) just so that they can carve-out a little island paradise for themselves. I think that goes a bit beyond hubris and localized 'environmental changes'.
But we've had this same argument before, or ones just like it, dozens of times.
The Ilithiir burned some trees, and Corellon (and the rest of Seldarine, because he 'bullies' them) cursed them for ALL ETERNITY, on EVERY WORLD, to no longer be able to 'walk in the sun' (basically, that's like telling a fish it's no longer allowed in water), and they had to retreat below ground, where they ate each other to survive (and YES, that's CANON).
The Vyshaan Elves of Aryvandaar mated with demons, murdered millions of their fellow elves, enslaved them, created Weapons of Mass Destruction, consorted with all sorts of fiends and monstrous entities... and Corellon thought that was just adorable. He even kichy-cooed them under their chins.
I used to think Asmodeus and Corellon were one and the same, but I don't think even Asmodeus could ever approach the level of evil Corellon represents. Asmodeus probably looks up to him as a mentor. You know the British Empire during the 'Age of Exploration'? How they thought everything on the planet was rightfully their's, and that anything that stood in their way should be destroyed? They had nothing on the Elves, and their gods. Corellon looks at the whole of Creation in that manner. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Jan 2018 19:23:29 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2018 : 19:31:53
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-Eh, that's because of the unforeseen consequences of not being able to fully control/contain the powerful magics being used. Otherwise, it would've just been the creation of an island far southwest of Faerun, which probably would not have mattered all that much in the grand scheme of things.
-The Great Glacier being created, the Calim Desert being created, the Raurin Desert being created, the Anauroch Desert being those events reshaped a massive swath of geography and had a huge impact on the cultures that existed there, came to exist there, and neighboring groups. The Anauroch Desert being reversed by the Shadovar, same thing, and now in 5e that it's bigger and badder, again, same. Lol, those poor people living in the area. In a span of 100 years or so, they must not have a clue anymore. The Bedine don't know to wear bikinis or burqas. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2018 : 20:29:34
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@Wooly and Karsus. AFAIK, even creating a whole island out of nowhere can easily lead to cataclysmic consequences in the coastal areas. It's like dropping a huge, heavy item into a tank of water. I guess that IRL it would lead to multiple consecutive tsunamis (the sudden appearance of such a mass would probably be less catastrophic than dropping it, but it would be dangerous nonetheless).
In any case, I thought that their plan actually was to rip a mass of land from the main continent, and then essentially imbue it with the magic of Arvandor itself? Am I misremembering things? |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 04 Jan 2018 20:35:01 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2018 : 20:41:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
@Wooly and Karsus. AFAIK, even creating a whole island out of nowhere can easily lead to cataclysmic consequences in the coastal areas. It's like dropping a huge, heavy item into a tank of water. I guess that IRL it would lead to multiple consecutive tsunamis (the sudden appearance of such a mass would probably be less catastrophic than dropping it, but it would be dangerous nonetheless).
Magic that can create an island should certainly be capable of doing so without creating tsunamis.
Besides, it's not like they were dropping it out of the sky.
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
In any case, I thought that their plan actually was to rip a mass of land from the main continent, and then essentially imbue it with the magic of Arvandor itself? Am I misremembering things?
Nope, they were just trying to create an island. It was not to impact the one continent in any way.
I just finished re-reading that book. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2018 : 20:54:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Magic that can create an island should certainly be capable of doing so without creating tsunamis.
Besides, it's not like they were dropping it out of the sky.
Even if you create it out of nowhere, the sudden appearance of such a thing would indeed generate tsunamis (unless you meant that the magic would contain them. That we don't know. However, looking at how unreliable High Magic is, since I don't recall the possibility of natural disasters and parts of the spell meant to avoid them mentioned in the preparations, I honestly doubt that it would. But then, maybe I'm also misremembering that).
That said, all things considered, it's not nearly as bad as I thought, but it's still acting with very little care when countless lives could be affected by them (which would put the elves on the same level as other races).
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Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2018 : 21:04:12
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| Now, they have retconned the origin of the elves for 5e. Corellon is even more a @#$ than before, and I guess one can understand the elves as children without a parental guide to look up to. Lolth is now somewhat good, in this new origin, as well... |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2018 : 21:42:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Now, they have retconned the origin of the elves for 5e. Corellon is even more a @#$ than before, and I guess one can understand the elves as children without a parental guide to look up to. Lolth is now somewhat good, in this new origin, as well...
This is more or less what the story of the elves in generic D&D has always been, but with a spin on it.
I don't see how it would make Corellon worse. If anything, I like what they said about him letting the elves free to forge their path. That wouldn't prevent him from helping them in the times of need, so why would he be worse for it?
As for Lolth, she has always kind been like that, or that was my impression reading Evermeet. It's why I think that she had potential as a character, and that the relationship between the elven and drow pantheons could be especially interesting (especially with Eilistraee and Vhaeraun in the mix), but that she has been reduced to a one-note parody. She's still her mindlessly evil self, even if her orignal goal might have had a point.
Also, this video has an issue that I saw multiple times. The banishment of Lolth and her betrayal in the Realms didn't involve the drow. It was a deities-only thing. The whole banishment of the drow happened waay later, after the Crown Wars. Before the Crown Wars, there was even a time when Lolth was all but forgotten to the drow of Faerun, and when they were guided by deities like Vhaeraun, Ghaunadaur, and Eilistraee. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 04 Jan 2018 21:51:53 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2018 : 02:00:27
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LMAO - the illustration on pg.11 of the GHotR literally shows 'everything going underwater'. Buildings and all.
I think that about sums it up. The version in the GHotR is slightly different than the one Elaine wrote. In the original version of the lore (I think from the Evermeet sourcebook?), the Elves had created Evermeet by cleaving away a massive amount of the coast of Faerūn and that 'drifted' westward until just a small piece of it was left that became Evermeet. All those islands, the jagged coast, etc., was created by them (including the Moonshaes). Later, in 4e (actually pre-4e, with the GHotR), they wanted to simply get rid of Evermeet (I'm not sure who had a stick up their butt about a fictitious island), so they downplayed its creation, saying it was simply created 'whole cloth' there in the ocean (they needed to retcon that, so they can replace it with the barren island from 'elsewhere', otherwise none of that would make sense). Here's more of what the GHotR says:
quote:
"But the creation of this place did not involve rending the world, as the humans imagine. Instead, our ancestors created a concentration of the Weave so powerful that a piece of fair Arvandor became part of Toril, as if it had always been so. By thus altering the creation of the world, our ancestors also changed the history of the world as it had unfolded to that point. Granted, their action might not have altered history all that significantly, since they had simply created an island in the middle of an unexplored oceanan island hidden from sight by the will of the Seldarine. But change history they did, and the true extent of that change is forever lost to those who followed them into this world.
We have spoken before of the unintended consequences that always accompany the practice of ArseluTelQuess, and why we must guard against hubris in our attempts to remake Toril as we wish it to be. In this case, I submit that the consequences were both far-reaching and subtle. By invoking the EverSakkatien to concentrate the Weave in a single location, our ancestors might inadvertently have lessened the strength of the Weave elsewhere in this world, producing consequences that continue to haunt us today."
Changed the world... changed THE HISTORY of the world. They UNMADE stuff - people and places. That's a level of monstrous I simply cannot abide. And do they hang their heads in shame, feeling the guilt of destroying "that which will now never be"? No, they still walk around with their heads held high, noses in the air, pretending their bony arses don't stink.
The orcs must have a good laugh over all this. Humans treat them like monsters, and then take the real monsters into their beds. And the funny part is, orcs and elves were once the same race... orcs were just the honest ones.
And the very first line of that thing I quoted is a nod to the retcon itself - "humans used to believe..."
EDIT:
Okay, this is TOO funny. I went looking for the original lore (I now think it must have been from Elaine's novel), and I checked the Evermeet sourcebook - it literally says the elves believe it 'fell from the sky'.
quote:
Elves of Evermeet, pg.9
The Green Isle resembles a tiny fragment of Arvandor fallen from the heavens. Elven legend, in fact, claims this very thing.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Jan 2018 07:21:57 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2018 : 03:20:05
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The part about changing history is also a retcon. It's not in the novel, which I just finished reading today, and it's also not in the Elves of Evermeet sourcebook. The novel all but openly states that Evermeet is a piece of Arvandor that was broken loose and brought to Toril -- and it also speaks of it being part of the Weave itself. In essence, the novel version is that they High Mages tore off part of the Weave, causing great destruction, and the Seldarine acted to keep it from being a total failure.
So while the destruction of the one continent is referenced, nothing says that the land itself that formed Evermeet came from the continent, and there is similarly no reference at all to history being changed.
Which makes sense, of course, because then the destruction would have been in the past and the High Mages would have known about it before causing it.
I think the history changing part was added in the Grand History to support the retcon of the Abeir-Toril Sundering. |
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Why Correlon is a #@^%*!
