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Starshade
Learned Scribe
Norway
279 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Nov 2017 : 09:40:38
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In the 2E, was there some small deities with only one or two major spheres for clerics?
I started thinking; it there were, it would be barely functioning as player character, but working as a mob/npc. In 3. ed, I could model such deities with the Eberron adept class, giving the adept a single domain on top of the adept class spell list; for cults, small offbeat religions, etc. But is there any?
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2017 : 14:24:37
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Yes, there are. The one that comes instantly to mind is the demigod who used to be the factol of the Godsmen in Planescape. She only grants spells of one sphere, which IIRC was Healing. And I can remember seeing mention of other minor gods granting access to between 2-4 spheres, but none are springing directly to mind. Some of them might be humanoid deities; I know that all of the priest kits in the Complete Book of Humanoids got access to very few spheres.
Hope this helps. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2017 : 15:03:14
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Some 2E material (like PHBR3: Complete Priest's Handbook) recommended "low powered" priests with access to very few spheres (say, one or maybe two Major, plus one or maybe two Minor). And some of the specialty priest types in the FRA (like those who worshipped one of the Elemental Lords or Beast Lords) only gained access to one or two spheres but also had granted powers roughly comparable in scope to those of a druid.
Players never chose these priest types, of course. Always going for priests of Mystra or Tempus or Cyric or some other Greater Power which gave them access to many (most) spheres along with a useful collection of granted powers. My observation was that limiting players to "weak" priests only ensured nobody would play a priest; the other classes presented in the PHB (namely the "generic" cleric and mages of any kind) are just too strong in comparison. A "generic" low-level cleric has access to dozens of spells at level one, a specialty priest of Mystra/Tempus has access to nearly twice as many spells at level one (plus a generous helping of freebie proficiencies and such) - along with being fairly sturdy warriors and having great Saves and having Turning abilities and all the rest. These priest/cleric characters can overwhelm other classes at low-levels and continue to hold their own at mid-/high-levels. It's too much.
The Realms and Planescape are filled with divine magic, it's harder to make "low powered" priests significant when it seems there's a couple wizards and a dozen other priests (or even a Chosen or somebody's avatar) around every corner. It's not like Dragonlance where one middly priest in the entire party is an epic plot arc unto itself.
I'd often considered using modified XP progressions for each specialty priest type; those with access to lots of power would progress slowly while those with little power would progress faster. Alternately, some powers/spheres do not become available until certain levels are reached (and, perhaps also certain holy quests are completed), and when each new sphere is acquired it begins at "level 1". These sorts of things are already factored into the rules for druids, even for paladins and rangers.
The DMG has a table for designing/modifying custom classes with their own experience point thresholds which could be useful for this. For example, a priest gains a Major sphere at level 5 so his experience point thresholds from level 5 onwards are increased, etc.
I've seen players eager to play druids before - not because they cared at all about druids or nature or true neutrality or whatever - but simply because they planned to advance in levels (mostly to gain hit dice and better Saves) very quickly before dual-classing into something else (like a flimsy mage). They might've played "low powered" clerics if I'd ever constructed any specialty priest classes which could advance through low levels just as quickly. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 15 Nov 2017 15:29:19 |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2017 : 16:03:49
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| Technically, ALL speciality priests advance using the druid XP tables. I've always given my players the option of which XP table they want to use, depending on how far the game is planning to go. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
572 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2017 : 16:15:15
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Many of the priests in Legends & Lore, especially the American Indian deities, granted ~2 major spheres and ~2-4 minor; the aforementioned PHBR3 was similar. I know some people who advocate for those types of priests, but I would rather have more people *want* to play priests than not, and these priests can also be quite powerful villains. Even with these more powerful priests, I've never had more than one or two players in a group play them.
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Technically, ALL speciality priests advance using the druid XP tables. I've always given my players the option of which XP table they want to use, depending on how far the game is planning to go.
The Druid XP chart is awful. Truly, truly horrendous. I can't even recommend it for druids. Demihuman Deities has an alternate XP chart, which is *much* better, similar in progression to the Paladin/Ranger chart. I highly recommend that for all Faiths & Avatars style specialty priests.
Jeff |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2017 : 17:38:27
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Even the "design your own class" approach from the DMG would be flawed if taken as-is. A proper "balance" between priest subclasses would require some artistry in tailoring an XP progression for each one.
The Druid advancement wasn't so bad in 1E. Still not perfect but also not too bad. But it was basically just copied verbatim into 2E while the rest of the druid specifics got reworked.
I'd forgotten about that Demihuman Deities chart. It looks similar to the PHBR10: Book of Humanoids approach where only one XP chart is used but a modifier (like "-10%" or "+20%" or whatever) is applied to the required XP for specific race/class combinations to keep their different power levels balanced. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2017 : 12:09:11
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| I think the only problem with the druid in Demihuman Deities is that they somehow keep it separated from other specialty priests with no apparent reason but to preserve the original class. I cannot understand why druids have a different level limit and XP table than other specialty priests (I'd use the DD ones to all, by the way). |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 16 Nov 2017 12:09:27 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2017 : 12:28:07
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| Druids do get a lot of granted powers. Especially after advancing to hierophant status (which is, the rules claim, an entirely different class). |
[/Ayrik] |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2017 : 12:30:35
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But, if he's looking to make "adepts" then he's looking to design something for NPC's only, not for PC's, but to give them a little more spell selection. Also, having them identify in FR to a specific deity would also make sense. Now, if you only want these adepts in 3e/3.5e rules to be for "smaller" deities, that's fine, but in theory, they don't have to be. I can easily see it where a deity chooses to only invest a fraction of their power into one individual versus what they might put into another, and adepts would be the ones wherein a deity either has less power to give for some reason, or they maybe somewhat fear giving too much power to a certain individual (because as we've said in the past... worshippers can shape deities).
My answer, if you're talking about redoing the adepts would be to simply allow them to have access to all domain spells of the deity. I would also recommend redoing how they can cast their spells and not make it based on wisdom. Instead make it based off charisma, as I picture these people as more of a leader/proselytizing figure. So, this would be a charisma based divine caster, but one that has a decent spell selection to choose from that they have to memorize. However, their spell advancement sucks, their hit die sucks, their BAB sucks, their saves suck against anything except mostly mind control, their armor sucks, and they only have simple weapons.... So, no sane PC will choose them, and yes they would only be an NPC class.
If you still want to relegate this to only what might be considered lesser deities, look at Uthgar.... Ubtao... Ulutiu... Rillifane Ralathil. All of these deities have these almost like "spirit" aspects of themselves that people can worship (for instance, Rillifane has Magnar the Bear, Relkath the Many Limbed, etc... Uthgar has like "red tiger" and "sky pony"). Also, their religions kind of speak to the generally imagery we have for adepts.
Also, on the idea above with using charisma instead of wisdom, it would allow you to make one of these NPC's who only dips this class initially until he discovered a better path to power. So, say a tribal sorcerer who has a level of adept and thereby gets some basic cure light wounds that he can use on the tribe (and maybe he makes a lot of wands or potions (or perhaps a better version might be salves or poultices) for such to cover his inability to be a better healer).... then maybe he has 3 or 4 other pure adepts to support him. With it being charisma based, this becomes a little unlimited... sorcerer, warlock, favoured soul, warmage, dread necro, binder, etc.... all of which kind of fit this type of less advanced society. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Starshade
Learned Scribe
Norway
279 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2017 : 20:57:19
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Maybe I should have explained a bit more: I wondered if it's canon sources for underpowered casters, fit for being low powered cultists, non players or "potion merchants", etc. Not able to harm players substantially, but being entertaining without too dangerous if used in a fight.
I thought of pseudo-deities, dead gods, heretics and worshippers of false powers, etc. But nice if there is some from FR canon too. The Native American deities I certainly will look into. Might fit cults from Maztica or other far off places  |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2017 : 11:00:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Druids do get a lot of granted powers. (...)
And so many of the Faiths & Avatar series specialty priests.
If the Druid is but one kind of specialty priest, I think it would make sense to treat them equally. Otherwise, each priest would have to get its own level limits and XP tables.
Besides, since they changed the spheres of magic of the basic cleric and the multiclass rules for ranger/clerics, why not adapt the druids and upgrade the level limits in the (more magical) Realms, to put them together with the other priests?
Another option would be downgrade the other priests, but I think the other way is better, since the Realms are indeed highly magical. My opinion, though. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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2E spheres and small deities
