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Fourth Offense: Nystul's nullifier is cast upon the offending member. This ancient spell erases all magical knowledge from the wizard's memory, removing his or her spellcasting ability and making him or her zerolevel. This extreme penalty is visited upon those whose actions have disgraced the Guild and endangered the city and its citizens by their careless
disregard for its rules and regulations.

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Originally posted by Sourcemaster2

While perusing the tome City of Raven's Bluff, I came upon this dread enchantment. According to what I read, It "erases all magical knowledge from the wizard's memory, removing his or her spellcasting ability and making him or her zero-level." Does anyone know if this spell has been converted to 3rd ed., or if there is an other mention of it? The idea of a magic user being punished, or attacked, and losing both his knowledge and power is somewhat intimidating, and I'm interested in researching this enchantment.

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Originally posted by The Masked Mage

As far as I know, that spell was never actually detailed.

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Originally posted by The Masked Mage

As far as I know, that spell was never actually detailed.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I do not like that spell, and I can't see Mystra allowing the use of a spell that essentially removes someone's ability to use magic. That's an even worse punishment than the spell Laeral's Crowning Touch, which can only be cast by Chosen, and which has a one year duration. Laeral's Crowning Touch can result in a spellcaster losing all spellcasting ability, but that would require the caster to ignore what's happening as they continue to cast spells.

Laeral's Crowning Touch is from The Seven Sisters, pages 11 and 12.

I also have an issue with the existence of a spell that instantly removes all levels and abilities from someone and makes them a zero-level peon. That's a game-breaking effect, right there. They might as well have called it Power Word: Nerf.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I do not like that spell, and I can't see Mystra allowing the use of a spell that essentially removes someone's ability to use magic. That's an even worse punishment than the spell Laeral's Crowning Touch, which can only be cast by Chosen, and which has a one year duration. Laeral's Crowning Touch can result in a spellcaster losing all spellcasting ability, but that would require the caster to ignore what's happening as they continue to cast spells.

Laeral's Crowning Touch is from The Seven Sisters, pages 11 and 12.

I also have an issue with the existence of a spell that instantly removes all levels and abilities from someone and makes them a zero-level peon. That's a game-breaking effect, right there. They might as well have called it Power Word: Nerf.

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Originally posted by TBeholder

It's a bit nonsensical in description, because it removes levels (like Enervation and other Necromantic spells), erases memories (like Forget and other Enchantment/Charm spells) - effects assigned to the opposing schools - and removes "spellcasting ability" which (if interpreted as something in addition to what the above parts accomplish) may intrude into Mystra's domain a bit too much, as Wooly noted.

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Originally posted by The Masked Mage

As far as I know, that spell was never actually detailed.

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Lists don't show it in Greyhawk sourcebooks, Dragon, or anywhere at all, so...
IMO it was an obvious manifestation of pearl-clutching via badly thought out DM fiat for which RPGA was infamous, and nothing more.

For similar spells actually existing in FR canon, there's The Curse of Forgetfulness (from Dungeon #18 and The Ruins of Undermountain), level 7 spell (enchantment/charm, reversible) with permanent duration. It makes the victim unable to memorize (or cast from scroll) spells, one more per day.

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Originally posted by cpthero2

Master Rupert,

What though, if the spell were not created using the Weave, but the Shadoweave instead? Remember, after Bane died (sort of), Shar and Loviatar got along quite well. What if Loviatar, wanting to cause as much agony as possible, worked with Shar to create that spell? That would really enrage Mystra, and she couldn't do anything about it.

Thoughts?

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Originally posted by cpthero2

Master Rupert,

My apologies for the second response to your comment: I forgot to comment on the second part of yours.

I run a sandbox, non-scaled campaign where you can run across anything, at any time, as long as it is relevant to the ecology of the Realms, i.e. dragons are where they are listed (generally), and so if you go there, you run across it. So, since the world, in my campaign, is that deadly adding in a spell like that for mine sounds fantastic; however, that being said, if I were running a scaled campaign/regular campaign, I think that having that spell would be crazy.

Add's a level of fear to even the most powerful though, huh?

Epic mage looks to his companions and says, "How do we know attacking this place is smart? We know the Loviatarian's in there are waiting for us, we know they are using shadowmagic, and we know that if they have something like Nystul's Nullifier, I could be doomed, and then so would you!" The other companions look at each other, "Let's retire. We're rich, we can open a bar, and call it good." *And so ended the campaign* lol

Best regards,

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Originally posted by cpthero2

Master TBeholder,

Consider the Grand Puba of mind destroying spells (potentially): Mind Rape, from the Book of Vile Darkness. I see Mind Rape as commensurate with Nystul's Nullifier. It can completely, and irrevocably (I think minus Wish and Miracle) do anything to the mind, i.e. add in thoughts, memories, lore, and more.

Ugliest spell I know.

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Third, while the Weave serves equally well for any kind of spell, the Shadow Weave is best for spells that
sap life or muddle the mind and senses, and is unsuited to spells that manipulate energy or matter—and cannot support any spell that produces light.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by cpthero2

Master Rupert,

What though, if the spell were not created using the Weave, but the Shadoweave instead? Remember, after Bane died (sort of), Shar and Loviatar got along quite well. What if Loviatar, wanting to cause as much agony as possible, worked with Shar to create that spell? That would really enrage Mystra, and she couldn't do anything about it.

Thoughts?

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That's even more problematic, actually. For one thing, the Shadow Weave was not a thing when someone dreamed up that spell. For another thing, the spell is attributed to Nystul -- a mage of Oerth, where Shar and the Shadow Weave don't exist. Thirdly, the Shadow Weave is a shadow of the real Weave, and thus less powerful -- so a spell that can trump a 9th level spell only castable by Mystra's Chosen cannot happen. Lastly, Mystra is a greater deity - she could restore someone's spellcasting ability if she chose; it would, in fact, be in keeping with her profile to do so.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by cpthero2

Master Rupert,

My apologies for the second response to your comment: I forgot to comment on the second part of yours.

I run a sandbox, non-scaled campaign where you can run across anything, at any time, as long as it is relevant to the ecology of the Realms, i.e. dragons are where they are listed (generally), and so if you go there, you run across it. So, since the world, in my campaign, is that deadly adding in a spell like that for mine sounds fantastic; however, that being said, if I were running a scaled campaign/regular campaign, I think that having that spell would be crazy.

Add's a level of fear to even the most powerful though, huh?

Epic mage looks to his companions and says, "How do we know attacking this place is smart? We know the Loviatarian's in there are waiting for us, we know they are using shadowmagic, and we know that if they have something like Nystul's Nullifier, I could be doomed, and then so would you!" The other companions look at each other, "Let's retire. We're rich, we can open a bar, and call it good." *And so ended the campaign* lol

Best regards,

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If I was playing in a game and someone cast a spell that reduced my character to a 0-level character, it'd be the last time I sat at that table.

Think on this: if such a spell existed, half of the wizards of the Realms would be blasting away at the other half, trying to get their hands on it so they could use it against their rivals. And the other half would be doing everything possible to stop someone from getting that spell. You'd have a wizard war going on, and that would cause a lot of collateral damage -- enough that non-wizards would not want wizards around, at all. You would thus have wizards blasting away at other wizards and non-wizards trying to chase off or kill any wizards they saw.

And of course Mystra, whose portfolio wants magic spread as much as possible, is going to have an issue with everyone hunting down wizards, and she's going to have to do something about it.

Not only that, but if it could have that effect on wizards, what effect could it have on others? Maybe this one just targets wizardry, but if there's a spell that removes all of one type of class level, there's nothing saying other class levels can't be targeted.

This is a game-breaking spell, no matter how you look at it.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by cpthero2

Master TBeholder,

Consider the Grand Puba of mind destroying spells (potentially): Mind Rape, from the Book of Vile Darkness. I see Mind Rape as commensurate with Nystul's Nullifier. It can completely, and irrevocably (I think minus Wish and Miracle) do anything to the mind, i.e. add in thoughts, memories, lore, and more.

Ugliest spell I know.

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An ugly spell indeed, but it says nothing about removing class levels. As written, the only way it can effect class abilities is to change a person's alignment -- which can have an effect if there are alignment restrictions. But even that doesn't reduce someone to 0 level. (And the spell's description explicitly says how those changes can be done)

Sure, memories can be removed -- but I'd say that the learned skills remain. In the real world, people who lose their memories don't suddenly forget how to walk, they don't have to relearn language, they can still control their bladders... And they are often surprised to discover skills they had no idea that they had.

Based on that, I would say that you could make a spellcaster forget they had ever cast a spell before, maybe even remove all the spells they'd learned -- but they're still a spellcaster, and if they get a chance to sit down and study, they're going to relearn those spells.

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Originally posted by TheIriaeban

I am not sure which was published first but I looked in the Wizard's Spell Compendium and Nystul's Nullifier wasn't listed. There is Block Advancement. That spell only prevents a wizard from increasing in spell ability as they gain experience (i.e. they still get more proficiencies/skills, they just don't progress in spell casting ability). It is permanent but it can be removed once the wizard proves that they are worthy of greater casting ability. I could see both Azuth and Mystra approving of this spell as long as it wasn't cast on every wizard out there. In the Secrets of the Magister, to punish a few mages that attempted to kill other mages at a MageFair, even Mystra herself only permanently feebleminded the wizards instead of stripping them of casting ability.

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Originally posted by The Masked Mage

As for the Shadow Weave thing, that would make no sense, as Nystul was not from Faerun.

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Originally posted by The Masked Mage

As for it being detailed in a source, the ONLY possibility I can think of would be Polyhedron Magazine. Polyhedron is the main source of all things Ravens Bluff. I've read most of the issues but it is possible the spell is from the dozen or so I never bought and cannot find PDFs for.

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Originally posted by The Masked Mage

In regards to the weave and spellcasting while away from Faerun:

The Weave is not the source of all magic. It is the form and structure that has been imposed upon magic in Faerun by Mystra. When a mage from the realms goes elsewhere there is still magic to draw on - it is just not structured in the Weave as it is in the realms.

The opposite is also true. Coming to the Realms does not make other spellcasters unable to cast spells either.

Finally, to clarify your word usage. Wizard's do not "gain access" to spells. They create effects by manipulating magical energies in various specific ways. This is why the memorization.

Priests need access to their deity to be given spells to cast.

Big difference there.

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Originally posted by The Masked Mage

I don't see Nystul as potentially being into the Shadow Weave. Most of Nystul's spells involve a connection to another plane - Positive or Negative Material / Radiance / Mineral / etc. to achieve an effect.

The only spell that has anything to do with shadows would be Nystul's enveloping darkness, but this is clearly an improved form of the more basic darkness spells, not a spell manipulating shadows.

Nystul favored alteration magics as well as illusion or obscuring magic. It also would not seem right to me that he was a regular planar traveler - he was more of a bring the planar to me kind of mage.

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