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Gelcur
Senior Scribe
535 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Oct 2017 : 21:48:00
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So Undermountain's Profile map has bugged me from day one. It is a nice work of art and great at a glance where everything is located. But the scale seems odd.
From "Ruins of Undermountain":
- Yawning Portal to L1 should be roughly 140'.
- "Bottomless pits" throughout undermountain tend to be 90' deep.
- At least one room on L1 is 80' tall.
- Multiple rooms on L2 are 90' tall.
- First three levels of UM are less than a mile deep. (p.7)
- The Crystal Labyrinth has a sea water under it.
From "Expedition to Undermountain":
- The Seadeeps, L6, was deep enough to be below the ocean floor
- The Seadeeps, L6, was close enough to the ocean floor to need pumps
- Belkram's Fall is over 6 miles deep (p.113)
- Balkram's Fall five Rune Ward bracers are space 1 mile apart in Belkram's Fall(p.119)
- The Pit of Ghaunadaur runs from L3 to L7 (as seen is profile map)
From "Waterdeep City of Splendors" 3E:
- The sewers map shows UM to be roughly 8,000 feet west to east and 6,000 feet south to north
Demihuman Deities:
- Pit of Ghaunadaur is a mile deep
Has anyone else noticed this? I'm mostly curious what the distance from each level is to the surface, say for a dwarfs depth sense.
Would be great if one of our art/map makers would make a more accurate version.
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The party come to a town befallen by hysteria
Rogue: So what's in the general store?
DM: What are you looking for?
Rogue: Whatevers in the store.
DM: Like what?
Rogue: Everything.
DM: There is a lot of stuff.
Rogue: Is there a cart outside?
DM: (rolls) Yes.
Rogue: We'll take it all, we may need it for the greater good. |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1272 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2017 : 22:51:30
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I seem to recall reading somewhere on these forums that if everything were accurately laid out from Waterdeep's street level down, most of Undermountain would wind up under the port. I'm really not sure where to begin looking for that, but maybe this comment will jog someone who has a better memory.
In short, no, it doesn't all fit perfectly. However, if someone fiddles around and manages to make it work, I'm definitely interested in the discussion. |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2017 : 23:33:03
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So a highly magical region that is KNOWN for all sorts of 'dimensional weirdness' (portals, etc) needs to conform perfectly to RW geometry?
Parts of Undermountain may not even be on Toril. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36874 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2017 : 23:53:03
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| I would consider the first Ruins of Undermountain boxed set to the the most accurate, and everything else is... negotiable. Particularly Expedition to Undermountain which, within a couple of pages of laying out all the restrictions on magic in Undermountain, has an NPC ignore at least one of those restrictions. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
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Gelcur
Senior Scribe
535 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2017 : 05:02:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Delwa
I seem to recall reading somewhere on these forums that if everything were accurately laid out from Waterdeep's street level down, most of Undermountain would wind up under the port.
This map shows roughly where UM falls under Waterdeep. quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So a highly magical region that is KNOWN for all sorts of 'dimensional weirdness' (portals, etc) needs to conform perfectly to RW geometry?
Parts of Undermountain may not even be on Toril.
I know, I know, magic. Still there is a lot of evidence that much of it physically does exist under Waterdeep. The original dwarven mines that it was based on were exanpsive enough the elves above created a mythal as a precaution to prevent the plateau from collapsing.
I agree the original Ruins box set is probably the definitive source and it does state that it is constantly changing.
I'm sure a lot of the issues can be reconsiled, if one just ignores the squares on the Profile Map and just consider it a rough sketch of the layout. My biggest hang-up is Balkram's Fall and the Pit of Ghaunadaur. Is it stated anywhere that the pit touches any level other than 3 & 7? I remember it mentioning it opens to the plane of ooze, maybe the portal explains the large difference in measurement. Maybe what level links to what part of the Underdark might help?
Would love to hear more if people have any ideas. Maybe I'll try my hand at a map sometime. |
The party come to a town befallen by hysteria
Rogue: So what's in the general store?
DM: What are you looking for?
Rogue: Whatevers in the store.
DM: Like what?
Rogue: Everything.
DM: There is a lot of stuff.
Rogue: Is there a cart outside?
DM: (rolls) Yes.
Rogue: We'll take it all, we may need it for the greater good. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2017 : 21:23:55
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Also, a level/location can go 'through' another level, without actually connecting to it.
Suppose you have one of those 'rooms' with a 100'+ ceiling - somewhere around 50-60' up there could be another level all around it, with no opening to it, that is just a dozen or so feet of stone away. The place is made to be confusing, and some areas slope, others have steps - 'levels' are not, themselves, necessarily 'level' - they could intertwine with another level that goes above and then below it, and no-one would be able to tell... thats why the place is such a b**ch to map. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Oct 2017 21:25:05 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4692 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2017 : 22:27:00
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| Three dimensional mapping is indeed harder. Well Buildings above flat ground not that hard. When you dig into the ground it gets much more harder. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36874 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2017 : 03:59:04
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| I don't like how that map has them all neatly stacked, myself... Me, I'd say that the first three levels are more or less neatly stacked, but the rest would be more or less scattered, with little to no overlap. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2017 : 07:44:05
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I expect all manner of extradimensional manipulation and illusory deception at work. Visitors to the Underdark have their perceptions altered while the Underdark itself changes or reconfigures continuously.
Two-dimensional maps of the Underdark merely indicate the two-dimensional limits of the paper surfaces on which they are described (and perhaps also the creative limitations of the describers). A three-dimensional model would be better but would require complex representations which few game designers (and fewer PC adventurers) have the skill to readily produce.
Maps of the first few levels, closest to the surface, are likely fairly accurate. And surely no cartographer would ever proclaim his maps (which he observed and navigated firsthand) are flawed. I've seen plenty of dungeon crawls (TRPG and CRPG) which exploit confusion caused by tricks like illusionary terrain, false walls and passage, misleading features, duplicated landmarks, and (constant, intermittent, or programmed) teleport zones - and these tricks become potent when forcing explorers to "rush" without being able to carefully observe details or navigate their surroundings. A little smoke and mirrors can go a long way when a pack of illithids is on your trail.
Halaster is/was powerful, brilliant, and insane. Mapping his labyrinth only appears straightforward to fools, the apparent simplicity of early regions is itself a subtle trap. |
[/Ayrik] |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1879 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2017 : 12:27:27
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| @Wooly: I think the map is just a representation and not meant to be an accurate portrayal. It just gives you a sense of how things connect for the sake of reference. I think MT is right...the actual positioning of levels likely overlap. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6383 Posts |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1879 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2017 : 14:11:44
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| Hey there Dazzler. Yeah the new job is time consuming but I still lurk here and there. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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moonbeast
Senior Scribe
USA
522 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2017 : 10:00:25
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| I wonder at which level I could insert a small cyclops tribe in Undermountain…. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36874 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2017 : 14:18:14
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quote:
Originally posted by moonbeast
I wonder at which level I could insert a small cyclops tribe in Undermountain….
Pretty much anywhere, as long as they have sufficient room and resources. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2017 : 15:49:55
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Just don't put them near beholders...
They may not see eye to eye. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36874 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2017 : 16:13:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Just don't put them near beholders...
They may not see eye to eye.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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moonbeast
Senior Scribe
USA
522 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2017 : 22:04:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Just don't put them near beholders...
They may not see eye to eye.
Eye see what you did there. |
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Undermountain Depths
