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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Sep 2017 : 13:41:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I'd thought an answer to the "why a bear?" question had already been determined, as best as possible.
But what BEARing could it have on the powers of Mystra's Chosen?
Wow, totally forgot I started that thread. So, now I'm wondering was that bear Selune or Lurue.... it technically could have been an avatar of either.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2017 : 13:45:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
This thread made me think of a couple questions I've been wondering about for a while.
First, are there other weave-ghosts than those of the seven sisters who died? Vangerdahast maybe? I feel like I remember reading about some, but I can't recall who they might be.
Some of the princes of Shade should be among them, IIRC.
quote:
Second, did we ever learn anything more about "why a bear?" for holding Mystra's rebirth for 5E, at least until the Simbul joined her? I remember speculating with my brother and mom that bears were often shamanistic, which is an early type of magic (maybe the early Netherese had shamans before they interacted with the elves or the sarrukh, and they were bear-spirit shamans?). IDK, just totally guessing on my part. Or is it just one of those great unspoken riddles of the Realms?
Deities hiding in animals doesn't seem to be exclusive to Mystra. Helm was hiding in a goat, for example. If we're going to use Occam's Razor, then the most immediate answer is that it could be a way like another to safely hide from unwanted attention, and that the chosen animals don't necessarily have any particular meaning. They might even simply be the closest thing where the "wounded" deity could find a refuge. However, being this the Realms, there might very well be some hidden meaning behind all this. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 24 Sep 2017 13:46:05 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2017 : 07:24:42
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| Should access to some portion of Mystra's godlike experience, knowledge, or memories be granted to her Chosen as needed? She might always communicate this knowledge through visions and other interactions ... but why not simply "grant" it (implant it within their minds) directly, as one of their "special gifts"? |
[/Ayrik] |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2017 : 12:57:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Should access to some portion of Mystra's godlike experience, knowledge, or memories be granted to her Chosen as needed? She might always communicate this knowledge through visions and other interactions ... but why not simply "grant" it (implant it within their minds) directly, as one of their "special gifts"?
I like this idea. It fits the concept and isn't necessarily overwhelming. So maybe a bonus to any knowledge skill rolls with the bonus getting smaller the farther back in history one goes? Like +3 for anything in the past two centuries, +2 between two centuries and past millennia, +1 between last millennia and the preceding 5 millennia. Beyond that, instead of a bonus, the DM comes up with flashes of imagery that he just says to the player, and if that gives them help, great. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2017 : 16:36:00
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| lol some of Mystra's Chosen are player characters? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2017 : 17:23:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
You're right, sleyvas. Eight-pointed stars, not eight stars. They still might represent eight cardinal schools of magic.
In the book Guide to Hell, it is suggested there is one layer for each school of magic, the Ninth being the Bardic School.
Whats interesting is that I am now reading the Haunted Lands trilogy, and in that, Bardic Magic seems to unaffected by the Spellplague (or maybe just barely - its not even noticeable). That would indicate that Bardic Magic is indeed some separate, perhaps 'more ancient' form of magic: I personally connect it to the Seeker of the Song and Sublime Chord PrC's, 'True Name' magic, Fey Magic {the written form - Hamafae}, and the Rune Magic of the Giants and Dwarves. Its part of the 'language primeval' that was spoken in the First world, which itself is a debased form of the mental 'Language of the Gods' (The Dark Tongue would be a corrupted form).
So basically - if you've followed my other musings - all part of 'Raw Magic'. That stuff that divine and semi-divine beings used to be able to throw around willy-nilly, before the Dawnwar and the shattering of the True World.
Thus, Mystra should not have the Ninth school in her repertoire - it is 'above and beyond' The Weave (although she herself may use it, and certain 'gifted' mortals - it would be Silver/Spellfire). Also, if we connect Necromancy to shadow, she may not have that in the 1e/2e/3e time period either (because Shar's Shadoweave probably rose to prominence with the death of Mystryl)*. Although thats a tough call, because 'shadow' is actually connected to illusion. Its a shaky theory, but it could help explain the changing number of stars.
The Compass Rose I now use for all my maps has SEVEN stars, and shall always remain so. That is how Ed intended it.
*The main problem with this is that we've never actually seen any real difference betweent eh spells an arcane caster can cat, and one using the Shadoweave, aside from some odd abilities Troy Denning gave his characters in the RotAW. In Haunted Lands Szass Tam even specifically tries to use the Shadoweave (which he states is NOT his normal way of casting) when he can no longer access The Weave (he knew of it, and how to use... he just chose not to). However, he found it was even 'more gone' than The weave was (no trace of it).
Of course, The Weave (and Shadoweave) have waffled all over the place lore-wise, so who knows. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Sep 2017 17:30:03 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2017 : 18:38:43
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Mystra should not have psionics within her portfolios, either. Psionics are internally powered and seems very un-Weave-like. But (when psionics is discussed at all) it is usually stated that she does.
Bards can worship pretty much any deity they like, but they're generally associated with Milil or Oghma, not Mystra. I don't recall any examples of bardic magic during the Avatar Crisis or other such Mystra-died-Weave-disrupted events.
If anything, I'd think wild magic would be a suitable ninth school, not bardic magic. Bards have their own magical ways, but in general they're just artsy dabblers who practice proper magic at lesser level and competence than wizard/priest counterparts.
And remember that Guide to Hell is wonderfully inconsistent with other Planeslore and Realmslore. A "Bardic School" not dependent on Mystra's Weave, taken from this book, would be just as valid as Jazirian/Asmodeus possessing ultimate power over the entire cosmos (and over all the gods or overgods of places like the Realms in it). |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2017 : 20:48:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Mystra should not have psionics within her portfolios, either. Psionics are internally powered and seems very un-Weave-like. But (when psionics is discussed at all) it is usually stated that she does.
Auppenser is the god of psionics. Mystryl put him to sleep to keep him from dying off entirely.
Psionics in the Realms has been handled as if it is magic powered by a personal, one-person Weave. That's how it was in 3E; I don't know if it was addressed in later versions... I like psionics a lot, but aside from Dark Sun, psionics has always never been properly integrated into D&D -- it's always a rough bolt-on. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2017 : 03:34:05
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quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
9 should be sorcery not bardic
Sorcery isn't a school, though -- it's a different way of casting the same spells.
And I'm weak on bards, but I'm fairly certain they're casting the same spells, too, though also in a different way. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2017 : 04:27:15
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| Are 4E-style warlock pacts based on Weave magic? Pacts with fiends or fey or elementals or whatever, creatures (and magical powers) from somewhere beyond the Realms. Do they need to involve Mystra or the Weave at all? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4438 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2017 : 04:52:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Are 4E-style warlock pacts based on Weave magic? Pacts with fiends or fey or elementals or whatever, creatures (and magical powers) from somewhere beyond the Realms. Do they need to involve Mystra or the Weave at all?
Depends, is this post-Spellplague or post-Sundering? Spellplague-era no, its not Weave based. Sundering-era, I'd assume it would be similar to Divine magic |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2017 : 00:48:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Are 4E-style warlock pacts based on Weave magic? Pacts with fiends or fey or elementals or whatever, creatures (and magical powers) from somewhere beyond the Realms. Do they need to involve Mystra or the Weave at all?
I would say that no they aren't, and that would be purely because as much as I like Mystra... I'd like to limit her... AND I'd like the power sources for warlocks to not be Toril based.
That being said, we don't have stories of warlocks being NOT affected during the wailing years, and I would have thought that would have come up if it were the case. Playing devil's advocate to THAT though, one might say that the weave and connections to other planes being in disarray caused some kind of "interference" across many "spectrums" of energy flowing to Toril. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2017 : 01:00:55
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Isn't that the premise of 4E's Spellplague? That Mystra's power (along with the Weave) was not localized to the Realms, her death disrupted magic (the Weave) across the entire cosmos?
Working under that model, since warlocks and the things they make pacts with all live somewhere within the entire cosmos, they should be affected.
Yet, paradoxically, the same edition also invented Abeir and Primordials, along with limits to deities (including Mystra) in affecting them. As if Abeir is not simply another sphere or plane or dimension, but a place entirely separate from the "entire" cosmos. And as if Ao has enough power to impose such a thing within/apart of the cosmos, yet lacks enough power to temporarily assert stability onto the unconstrained Weave (even on only just a few select worlds, if the entire cosmic-spanning Weave would be too much). |
[/Ayrik] |
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Fineva
Seeker
Canada
79 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2018 : 04:39:31
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Should access to some portion of Mystra's godlike experience, knowledge, or memories be granted to her Chosen as needed? She might always communicate this knowledge through visions and other interactions ... but why not simply "grant" it (implant it within their minds) directly, as one of their "special gifts"?
I like this idea. It fits the concept and isn't necessarily overwhelming. So maybe a bonus to any knowledge skill rolls with the bonus getting smaller the farther back in history one goes? Like +3 for anything in the past two centuries, +2 between two centuries and past millennia, +1 between last millennia and the preceding 5 millennia. Beyond that, instead of a bonus, the DM comes up with flashes of imagery that he just says to the player, and if that gives them help, great.
I truly am stealing this for a Exarch of Ilsenstaad concept, it's from a module where if you help the ghostly 2nd son of Obadai you get a stone cunning trait! (Yoink) Nice less powerful definition of a Chosen/Exarch |
I" am Sathia of Orogoth |
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Archmage of Nowhere
Seeker
USA
64 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2018 : 14:38:09
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Kind of late to this admittedly, but I find the topic pretty interesting so ill give a crack at the topic. For me and the games that I run I actually let the chosen keep the basic abilities of wizards from every older edition. For example the ability in 2E to reverse spells and their effect I always found fascinating, or historically in lore how spells beyond 9th were allowed by the limits of magic. To me Mystra's chosen should be window and a bridge between the more ancient ways of magic and the current brand of common sense practitioners follow. So its I guess a timeless quality to their casting, not restricted by todays "rules" of magic.
I really enjoy the moments where they do something that would have been mundane in a different age to the wonder of new players. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2018 : 22:28:23
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The first thing I would do in 5th Edition is have the new/old Mystra res. her lost Chosen. She's done it with Elminster numerous times - so why not the others? Restored life, and vitality and strength (to counter the whole "I'm so tired" bit from the Simbul)... call it a rebirth if you want. To mirror Mystra's.
After that, I see no reason to change the powers described in detail from the Seven Sisters book.
The only possible changes I would make is maybe given them each an individual power - Mystra given - specific to each Chosen and something they will need in the future (remember Mystra is also the goddess of time travel, so it makes sense she sees the future). Kind of like the movie The Paycheck, where Ben Affleck gives himself little tiny objects that he saw he would need in the future.
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2018 : 13:46:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Fineva
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Should access to some portion of Mystra's godlike experience, knowledge, or memories be granted to her Chosen as needed? She might always communicate this knowledge through visions and other interactions ... but why not simply "grant" it (implant it within their minds) directly, as one of their "special gifts"?
I like this idea. It fits the concept and isn't necessarily overwhelming. So maybe a bonus to any knowledge skill rolls with the bonus getting smaller the farther back in history one goes? Like +3 for anything in the past two centuries, +2 between two centuries and past millennia, +1 between last millennia and the preceding 5 millennia. Beyond that, instead of a bonus, the DM comes up with flashes of imagery that he just says to the player, and if that gives them help, great.
I truly am stealing this for a Exarch of Ilsenstaad concept, it's from a module where if you help the ghostly 2nd son of Obadai you get a stone cunning trait! (Yoink) Nice less powerful definition of a Chosen/Exarch
Ilsensine maybe? Yeah, I could definitely see this as an ability for illithid followers of said god. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Chosen of Mystra - 5e - Main ability you'd give?
