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moonbeast
Senior Scribe
USA
522 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Sep 2017 : 15:01:42
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Hi all,
I was thinking about "adding" some minor Banite (Bane, Lawful Evil) communities in my campaign set roughly in West Faerun (from North Sword Coast down to Amn). This is for 5th Edition timeline.
I tend to stick with a "mostly canon" FR setting, so the major landmarks like Waterdeep, Baldurs Gate, Luskan, Candlekeep, Red Larch etc are pretty much as they are described in recent books like SCAG.
However, I like to "fill in the empty spaces" in the regions otherwise unmarked in the surrounding regional maps. That means I like to create a few towns, settlements and villages here and there, and these are tailor-made for my campaign, some of these places are even the hometowns of the Characters.
Now…. given the above setting, how prolific are "Bane" communities in the 5E timeline in Western Faerun? Are they rare? Do small towns that pledge allegiance to Bane get razed and burned down as soon as the Lords Alliance hear of it? Or have modern Banites become more discreet. Do they keep their loyalty to Bane a whispered secret, although the entire town leadership and council might be devoted followers?
Or would an entire "Banite district" (neighborhood) even be allowed to exist in a contemporary metropolis like Waterdeep? How would the non-evil neighbors view them?
My goal is not to create some rabid evil communities. No major Bane Warlord that wants to destroy the Sword Coast or blow up Waterdeep. Nothing stupid or cliche like that. For many, Bane means law. Bane means order. Bane means discipline. Bane means protection. And that ethos also borders on harshness, cruelty, disciplinarian, bullying, and a strict upbringing for the kids and families.
Such a Banite settlement might even serve as a 'hometown' for some of the PCs in my game. Maybe one of the Paladins in the party originally was born and raised in the Banite town. Maybe his parents were strict, the father was cruel, the mother was unloving, the local boys were brutal and merciless bullies. And that's why the young boy (the PC) ran away from home…. to escape the life of harsh cruelty and spartan brutality.
Any thoughts to add? Thanks.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2017 : 16:31:05
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Here's my problem with 'Banite communities' - he is the God of Tyranny. That means a settlement he is 'in charge of' is either a conquered, exploited one, or its the settlement DOING the conquering and exploiting. He's not about farming, or trade (except to dominate it to further his imperial ambitions). How are folks going to "just go about their lives" in that situation? Thus, a 'Banite community' is either going to be a bunch of thugs, or a victim. And I'm just not seeing any 'goodly' realm or group of adventurers being okay with either scenario.
Theoretically, I can see one very far removed from other settlements, so they won't try to dominate them (which makes me wonder why Bane would even bother with the place - he is a PLANNER, which means he won't care about a place he has no plan for), and maybe give them some local non-humans to pick on, like goblins, kobolds, bullywugs, etc... in which case, any 'goodly' groups (like the Harpers) would turn a blind eye to their douchebaggery because in the long run, they are accomplishing some little good.
As I write this, I keep getting ideas for the place, but all of them scream 'evil' (like having a group of goblin/kobold slaves working a local mine for them), and you don't want it to be 'dripping evil', and there's the problem again - if they AREN'T trying to dominate/subjugate others, then they'd be pissing-off Bane, because thats what he is all about. He does NOT want people to be "satisfied with their lot in life". Unless the place is secretly supplying another base elsewhere that IS doing 'important work', I'm just not seeing the viability here. Even if its just to supply food for an 'ebil temple' some 20-50 miles away. Bane needs REASONS - this place needs a reason to exist, otherwise its useless to him. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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moonbeast
Senior Scribe
USA
522 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2017 : 18:17:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Here's my problem with 'Banite communities' - he is the God of Tyranny. That means a settlement he is 'in charge of' is either a conquered, exploited one, or its the settlement DOING the conquering and exploiting. He's not about farming, or trade (except to dominate it to further his imperial ambitions). How are folks going to "just go about their lives" in that situation? Thus, a 'Banite community' is either going to be a bunch of thugs, or a victim. And I'm just not seeing any 'goodly' realm or group of adventurers being okay with either scenario.
Theoretically, I can see one very far removed from other settlements, so they won't try to dominate them (which makes me wonder why Bane would even bother with the place - he is a PLANNER, which means he won't care about a place he has no plan for), and maybe give them some local non-humans to pick on, like goblins, kobolds, bullywugs, etc... in which case, any 'goodly' groups (like the Harpers) would turn a blind eye to their douchebaggery because in the long run, they are accomplishing some little good.
As I write this, I keep getting ideas for the place, but all of them scream 'evil' (like having a group of goblin/kobold slaves working a local mine for them), and you don't want it to be 'dripping evil', and there's the problem again - if they AREN'T trying to dominate/subjugate others, then they'd be pissing-off Bane, because thats what he is all about. He does NOT want people to be "satisfied with their lot in life". Unless the place is secretly supplying another base elsewhere that IS doing 'important work', I'm just not seeing the viability here. Even if its just to supply food for an 'ebil temple' some 20-50 miles away. Bane needs REASONS - this place needs a reason to exist, otherwise its useless to him.
Good points. And yet, the Realms canon clearly states that Bane worshippers are not rare, in fact they are all over — widespread — presence in Faerun. Bane is one of the few "evil gods" that has diplomatic alliances with many other deities. He's a smart calculating strategist, lawful evil. Not some crazed chaotic evil let's make war on impulse kind of guy.
IF Banites had been consistently aggressive conquerors and warmongers, then doesn't it make sense that they would be in a state of constant warfare and wars of cultural cleansing with all the other non-Banites? The Realmslore simply does not mention this level of constant conflict between the Banites and their neighbors. Otherwise we would have read about dozens of major Banite wars/campaigns by now, at least mentioned in the various novels between Greenwood and Salvatore, etc.
This leads me to believe that the majority of Bane's worshippers are simply followers because they actually believe, or have been coerced into the tyrannical/spartan/militant oppressive culture as just "a normal way of life".
In this view, the Banites don't think of themselves as "evil" any more than the historical Greek Spartans thought of themselves as evil warmongers. If anything, the Spartans probably though that those weird poem-writing drama-watching Athenians were the evil guys, the bad guys that lived the wrong way.
But I do take your point that a large enough settlement of Banites (small town and larger) would likely survive only if they were some distance from the Lords Alliance cities like Waterdeep, etc. And they would thrive only if their community was capable of goals to appease Lord Bane. So maybe in a frontier area where they could capture easy humanoid slaves without any major (non-Banite) city-state protesting the aggression. Most likely thrive on some kind of slave trade, etc. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2017 : 19:29:11
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Widespread simply means there are a lot of them scattered around. It does not imply any kind of concentration of them.
Any tyranny is not limited to warfare. Tyranny is defined as, emphasis mine: "cruel and oppressive government or rule."
So all you need is a position of authority, and you can be a tyrant. A guild leader, a ruler, a military leader, an employer... And you don't have to be all that far up the food chain, either. A simple clerk can be a tyrant by forcing concessions from people who need permits/information the clerk has. An employer or military leader can be one step up from the bottom rank, and be a tyrant to those under him. A law enforcement type can be a tyrant by harshly punishing even minor legal infractions. And so on. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2017 : 21:36:37
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You got the basics of my point, and Wooly handled the new point I was going to make.
Not even a settlement - I have problems with a religion dedicated to 'a god of Tyranny', because what you have there is a whole bunch of 'little tyrants' all running around together... and someone has to be 'boss'. A room full of 'tyrants' is going to give you a 'Highlander' situation - "There can be only one". You have a sub-culture of everyone trying to kill their 'upline' just to get ahead, so an organization full of greedy bootlickers who will stab you in the back at the very first sign of weakness; that takes paranoia to a whole new level. How would you ever be able to trust anyone with any important assignments?
So maybe like dazzler said - a community where the temple of Bane is popular, and there are a lot of 'bullies' in town. Although i do see you warmed to my idea of some humanoids being kept as slaves, in a mining operation or some-such. You just need a justification to appease Bane, even if its a simple one. Abusing small animals might cut it for Bhaal, or Cyric, or maybe even Myrkul, but not for Bane. Tyrants want people who have ambition. It also happens to make him a great god for amoral adventuring groups. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Sep 2017 21:37:02 |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2017 : 21:45:01
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| Perhaps some small settlements near Darkhold in the Sunset mountains swore fealty to the Pereghost and his ambitions, though only the Madgod Cyric instead of Bane knows what those entail. The fortress castle needs to supply its mostly human (giants, and goblin) standing army and wyvern aerie. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2017 : 22:12:29
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| Well, in canon, there IS the settlement of Parnast. Thats pretty far away from the center of everything, and is a Zhent town. Its just south of Weathercote Wood, on the Dawn Pass (trail). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2017 : 03:03:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Well, in canon, there IS the settlement of Parnast. Thats pretty far away from the center of everything, and is a Zhent town. Its just south of Weathercote Wood, on the Dawn Pass (trail).
To be fair, though, the Zhents are evil merchants, more than anything else. The group certainly has its share of Banites/Cyricists willing to use Zhent resources as a means to gain in power, but it's not the primary goal of the group. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2017 : 13:35:26
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| I like the idea of keeping humanoid slaves for a guild. Given a kobold's ability to handle trap creation, I wouldn't think it would be a stretch to say put some kobolds to work in some form of slave factory of some sort. It doesn't all have to be mining. Maybe they're put to work as carpenters with overseers.... or rather head carpenters.... or maybe they're put to work in some kind of mill that does metal work in the form of some kind of press that makes nails. Maybe they're put to work in some factory that mixes vats of chemicals to make basic bleach (and breathing the fumes is dangerous). Those kobolds that step out of line may be quickly killed and fed to the local dogs or hogs. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2017 : 14:37:33
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There's nasty, and then there's nasty; you can take goblin females and cast shape-change on them for your brothel. 
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Well, in canon, there IS the settlement of Parnast. Thats pretty far away from the center of everything, and is a Zhent town. Its just south of Weathercote Wood, on the Dawn Pass (trail).
To be fair, though, the Zhents are evil merchants, more than anything else. The group certainly has its share of Banites/Cyricists willing to use Zhent resources as a means to gain in power, but it's not the primary goal of the group.
Which was my point - he is looking for a community that "isn't good', but isn't exactly "dripping evil", either. I thought Parnast was a good example of the type of settlement he is looking to create.
A village of amoral merchants along a decent trade-route could pass for 'normal' and be fine with Bane (because they'd have the ambition to control all the trade in their area). And as long as they aren't overtly slaughtering people left and right, the 'good guys' won't even bother them (because aren't ALL nations just 'amoral merchants' underneath? Sembia? Amn? Calimshan? etc, etc, not to mention many powerful trading costers). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2017 : 14:41:48
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Ah, fair enough. 
Where is Parnast described? On the very quick search I did, I found a reference to a Moonstar agent being there, but nothing referring to any other groups. I only saw that one reference, though, and Lurue knows I'm not as knowledgeable about locales of the Realms as you. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2017 : 01:59:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
There's nasty, and then there's nasty; you can take goblin females and cast shape-change on them for your brothel.
Note to self: Never go to a brothel run by Markustay.
But jokes aside, you can change the way they look, but not the way they act. Goblins? Kobolds? Bugbears? Orcs? I'm thinking no way anyone would believe it. Now, take a hobgoblin female and shapechange them into a sexy dominatrix.... and you may trick some folks.
Now, that being said, if you're offering the option of shapechanging folks for sex though, how many humanoids would pay for the option to be someone else temporarily? Then how many humans would pay for the option to do the person that's shapechanged? I can see many a curious Halfling wondering what it would be like to be a big person. I can see half-elves that might wonder what it would be like to be a full on elf or human. Similarly, how many half-orcs would pay to simply be a human for a while.
BTW, this somewhat points out in my viewpoint a need for a spell between alter self and polymorph in 5e (so 3rd level). Something that can basically do alter self, but on someone else, but maybe able to alter your size by one step (i.e. small to medium, medium to either large or small) and requiring their consent or automatic failure. So, maybe like alter self and enlarge combined, but able to affect others. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2017 : 02:53:08
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My point was that you can take 'submissive slaves' and do some rather nasty things to/with them beside making them mine stuff, or fight for you. Just make her look like a Maztican, or a Chultan - she'll be speaking another language and be quite 'feral', and the guy (or girl) customer won't know the difference. You could even make her look like a Tuigan... Goblins probably smell better anyway.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Where is Parnast described? On the very quick search I did, I found a reference to a Moonstar agent being there, but nothing referring to any other groups. I only saw that one reference, though, and Lurue knows I'm not as knowledgeable about locales of the Realms as you.
From my own geography notes -
quote:
Parnast – a Zhentarim village… "Parnast, on the rump of the Dawn Pass Trail, when the natural heat of a northern summer met the unnatural heat creeping off the nearby Anauroch desert." The Nether Scroll, beginning of chapter 2.
I believe its the main settlement of that novel, although I haven't read the novel itself. Its on my 'to do' list. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Sep 2017 02:54:26 |
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moonbeast
Senior Scribe
USA
522 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2017 : 06:35:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Well, in canon, there IS the settlement of Parnast. Thats pretty far away from the center of everything, and is a Zhent town. Its just south of Weathercote Wood, on the Dawn Pass (trail).
Didn't Cyric pretty much "steal" the Zhent (as a loyal organization) away from Bane? Can someone elaborate IF (as of 5th Edition era) the Banites have retaken control of the Zhent leadership, not that I've read.
Bane and his loyalists must still be upset about that. Maybe they would plot to retake back control of the Zhent network away from the Cyricist leadership. By hook or by crook.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2017 : 06:51:44
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I think it was a three-way split for awhile, but now that Xvim became Bane its just a two-way split. I know the southern Zhents (everyone forgets about them, around the Lake of Steam area) are pro-Cyric, but up north I forget whether its the eastern or western branch that went back to Bane... probably eastern, considering thats where Zhentil keep itself is. Don't know about 4e/5e, but I think the one in The Darkhold were Cyricists, and they'd be the leadership of the western branch.
I'm not sure how much 'leadership' the Zhents really have in 5e - they seem to just be a massive mercenary company now. Zhents as a whole aren't very religious, so it shouldn't really matter who worships what god, so long as they are all loyal to... ummmm... not sure anymore. Their leadership? Whatever that may be at this point. It can't even be defined as a single place anymore. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Sep 2017 06:54:24 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2017 : 14:10:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
My point was that you can take 'submissive slaves' and do some rather nasty things to/with them beside making them mine stuff, or fight for you. Just make her look like a Maztican, or a Chultan - she'll be speaking another language and be quite 'feral', and the guy (or girl) customer won't know the difference. You could even make her look like a Tuigan... Goblins probably smell better anyway.
LOL, yeah, I need to reiterate.... never go to a brothel run by Markustay. Man that's a dirty trick... and it would probably work.  ..... hey, now we know why there are so many half-orcs down in Calimshan.
Still, if you're going to take the time to shapechange/polymorph someone, there's probably someone who would pay for the privilege. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2017 : 21:26:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I think it was a three-way split for awhile, but now that Xvim became Bane its just a two-way split. I know the southern Zhents (everyone forgets about them, around the Lake of Steam area) are pro-Cyric, but up north I forget whether its the eastern or western branch that went back to Bane... probably eastern, considering thats where Zhentil keep itself is. Don't know about 4e/5e, but I think the one in The Darkhold were Cyricists, and they'd be the leadership of the western branch.
I'm not sure how much 'leadership' the Zhents really have in 5e - they seem to just be a massive mercenary company now. Zhents as a whole aren't very religious, so it shouldn't really matter who worships what god, so long as they are all loyal to... ummmm... not sure anymore. Their leadership? Whatever that may be at this point. It can't even be defined as a single place anymore.
The Leadership of the Zhentarim is currently consolidated under the Pereghost, at Darkhold... The identity of the Pereghost is unknown, and the Zhentarim is no longer overtly loyal to either Cyric or Bane at this point.
The Banites and the Zhentarim now seem to be completely separate organizations... |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
Edited by - Cyrinishad on 20 Sep 2017 21:27:11 |
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moonbeast
Senior Scribe
USA
522 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2017 : 04:10:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I'm not sure how much 'leadership' the Zhents really have in 5e - they seem to just be a massive mercenary company now. Zhents as a whole aren't very religious, so it shouldn't really matter who worships what god, so long as they are all loyal to... ummmm….
Money. They worship the Great Almight Lord Money. Domain: Wealth  |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2017 : 01:40:45
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Look up that Hextor article in one of the old Dragon issues, and apply to Bane. Done.
Bane's a god of stern, harsh law; I imagine that any settlement that calls him a patron would be a harsh and regimented meritocracy. |
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moonbeast
Senior Scribe
USA
522 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2017 : 20:56:54
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Look up that Hextor article in one of the old Dragon issues, and apply to Bane. Done.
Bane's a god of stern, harsh law; I imagine that any settlement that calls him a patron would be a harsh and regimented meritocracy.
Yeah. I also like the thing that Pathfinder did with the Kingdom of Cheliax. It's a lawful evil tyrannical nation, to the exact definition of Lawful and Evil. Very orderly, very regimented, yet very strict and harsh rules for all citizens. The upper echelons also have hierarchical power politics, as befits evil persons trying to rise to the top (not with violence but) using subterfuge, Machiavellian schemes, diplomacy, alliances, etc. Unbeknownst to most of its citizens, the rulers of Cheliax are Asmodeus-worshippers.
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2017 : 06:33:19
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| Yeah, pretty much. Substitute Bane in place of Asmo, refluff the place a bit, and Cheliax could easily be Banite territory. |
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nblanton
Seeker
USA
93 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2017 : 00:57:25
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I'd imagine a Banite settlement to be something akin to a TV-trope style white supremacist or ethno-nationalist militia compound out in Northern Idaho or something.
Sorta filled with radical hierarchical structure and a bit of paranoia and hate. Or even sorta like the Saviors or Newberry from TWD, rigid structure with a tyrannical leader and an evil twist. |
It is the spirit of the game, not the letter of the rules, which is important. Never hold to the letter written, nor allow some barracks room lawyer to force quotations from the rule book upon you, if it goes against the obvious intent of the game.
Afterword, DMG pg 230. |
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Banite communities in Western Faerun? (5E)
