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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Sep 2017 : 16:36:52
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quote:
Who was he? Thymara asked. Myself, the voice said. My son. My comrade. It is hard to understand. The axe, the voice said, would lead Thymara to the other Vayemniri, who could make this place into a new djerad, a fortress to protect the Vayemniri in this new world.
Ashes of the Tyrant, chapter 15
I found this while re-reading Ashes of the Tyrant to update dragonborn stuff in the wiki. The "voice" talking to Thymara is Selūne, and the "son" is Nanna-Sin.
Now, I'm really confused. Is there anything out there that explains the relationship between Selūne and Nanna-Sin?
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Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2017 : 16:57:17
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Yep, you can get VERY confused with the god relationships because of the stuff they started doing at the end of 3e and during 4e (not that it wasn't confusing prior). Somewhere there was something that stated that that Nanna-Sin was an "aspect" of Selune. Ah, found it. It is an interesting piece, considering that the area discussed is actually the area that transferred to Abeir.
Power of Faerun, page 28. Untheric Crusade
Untheric Crusade: For three years, the armies of Mulhorand have slowly pushed into Unther, claiming more and more of their once-powerful rival's territory for Pharaoh Horustep III. by the end of the Year of Rogue Dragons (1373 DR), Mulhorand had conquered all of Unther except the city of Messemprar, and its armies threatened to lay siege to that city once the rain season (winter) had passed despite frenzied attacks by small flights of dragons from the Riders to the Sky mountains. Early in the Year of Lightning Storms (1374 DR), two events changed the thrust of this war. First, the Banite Templars of the Black Lord's Altar in Mourktar marched forth to the defense of Messemprar, reinforcing the besieged defenders of that city. Early successes by the Banites were attributed to a massive influx of magical weaponry from Thay sold to the church of Bane at cut-rate prices. Second, the Shussel-folk who disappeared from their city in the mysterious event known as the Vanishing have reappeared in Shussel as the Legion of Nanna-Sin. According to reports, the Shussel-folk were taken to the lost plan of Zigguraxus by Nanna-Sin (who might be an aspect of Selune), transformed into Aasimar, and trained as elite warriors. Now the Legion has returned, opening a new front against the rear flank of Mulhorand's forward armies. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2017 : 17:25:01
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| That reminds me that I want to do something to bring back Ningal to the current Realms. Was she related to those guys? |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2017 : 18:14:22
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I just read the Wiki entry - why would a Sumerian deity destroy Unther's navy? 
Is it because "he owed Asmodeus a favor"?
Every time I look back on 4e lore it just gets weirder and weirder.
He was called Su'en in Akkadian - that's phonetically similar sounding to 'Selūne'. Shar and Selūne are apparently much more ancient Gods than we used to think - their existence predates Abeir and Toril, and they were probably involved in the Dawnwar (which should have taken place over the First World. Since we really have no way of knowing how much time passed between the shattering of the First world (the birth of the current multiverse) and War of Light & Darkness (which seems to have culminated in the first Sundering), either or both of those beings may have 'begat' numerous 'lesser gods' in various Crystal Spheres. I have no problem with that - apparently that conflict escalated to include many powerful entities, and some of them may have been ones they, themselves, created.
So if Selūne was the original 'Moon Goddess' for the First World (although I'm not quite getting why that would have even needed a moon), nearly all moon deities now existing may be able to trace some lineage back to her (either directly, or by the stealing of power from some of her aspects).
For some reason this all made me look-up Hecate (one of my favorite, least-talked-about, Greek Gods). Wikipedia says "Hecate has been characterized as a pre-Olympian chthonic goddess.". Hmmmm... sounds like Selūne to me. And she is sometimes depicted as having 'three faces' (Selūne, Shar, and Mystra?) It also states, "she is more at home on the fringes than in the center of Greek polytheism. Intrinsically ambivalent and polymorphous, she straddles conventional boundaries and eludes definition." Just substitute 'Faerūnian' for 'Greek' and it sounds very much like it could be Selūne.
Perhaps we should ask Aphrodite... who is Venus... which is Sune-V backwards. Ed's been blending all the pantheons together since the beginning. He was the one who was writing all the articles on the Gods and fiends back in the day, in Dragon Magaizne - much of our 'cosmic D&D lore' came directly from Ed's version of The Forgotten Realms.
EDIT:
Okay, going one step further and reading more of the Wiki, Hecate, Artemis, and Apollo were all cousins (Hecate's mother was Asteria, sister to Leto, who was the twins' mother) So we got two moon goddesses (note Shar's symbol is a 'dark moon'), and one sun god. Sounds like the makings of the draconic creation myths right there.
Phoebe, and ancient Titaness (Primordial) was grandmother to them. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 09 Sep 2017 18:58:00 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2017 : 18:56:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I just read the Wiki entry - why would a Sumerian deity destroy Unther's navy?
Is it because "he owed Asmodeus a favor"?
Every time I look back on 4e lore it just gets weirder and weirder.
Nope, he destroyed the Untheran navy as a way to repay the dragonborn for having cared for his body during the Spellplague (Djerad Thymar is/was Nanna-Sin's god tomb), and for protecting his body when Gilgeam tried to stole his divine spark (something that rustled Enlil's jimmies pretty bad). So, he was fighting against Gilgeam, not to the Untherans proper.
In fact, they, Enlil and Nanna-Sin, still care for the Untheran that fled Unther and came to Tymanther as refugees (and the dragonborn allow them to live in Tymanther as long as they oppose Gilgeam).
And BTW, this is 5e's stuff. 
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
much of our 'cosmic D&D lore' came directly from Ed's version of The Forgotten Realms.
Yeah, I've been realizing this since I began to read old D&D books. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 09 Sep 2017 19:01:03 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2017 : 11:15:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
That reminds me that I want to do something to bring back Ningal to the current Realms. Was she related to those guys?
Ningal was not directly listed amongst the deities of the old Untheric Pantheon. That being said we have these words in Powers and Pantheons:
In a titanic clash known as the Battle of the Gods, Re was slain by the orcish Patriarchal deity, Gruumsh, in -1071 DR, and many senior members of the Untheric pantheon were slain, including Inanna, Girru, Ki, Marduk, Nanna-Sin, Nergal, and Utu.
This seems to imply that the Untheric Pantheon had other gods. However, we know that Ramman is relatively new to Unther according to old empires. I would also venture that Ishtar is as well. I'm personally positing that the later Babylonian gods came from Unther's forays into the Shaar. The below helps lay that stuff out from Old Empires.
Ramman is a relatively new deity, introduced into Unther during the height of the Second Empire.
(the lead into this is the fall of Narfell/Raumathar) Mulhorand heroes slew many of the monsters summoned by the wizards of Narfell and Raumathar, and once again the standard of Mulhorand flew over the battlements of the Priador. Thus began the Second Empire of Mulhorand and Unther.
Gilgeam was a proud god-king. As the centuries passed and Unther declined in prosperity and influence, as taxes rose and the people#146;s hatred grew, Gilgeam became a cruel and jealous lord.
All other deities, with the exception of Ishtar and Ramman (who were too popular to persecute) were banished from the plane.
Anyway, back to Ningal since that was the point of your post. She seems interesting in perspective of Abeir, given her link to dreams. She also apparently was the mother of Utu (sun god) and Inanna (a love and war goddess), so it would make sense that since 3 of the gods were in her orbit, she should have come as well... and that probably Gilgeam sent her away.
Ningal, on the other hand, is the beloved daughter of Ningikuga, the Goddess of Reeds, and Enki, the God of Magic, Crafts and Wisdom. To fully understand Ningikuga as a Great Goddess, it is necessary to go back in time to the Southernmost part of Mesopotamia, where people started first gathering in settlements and to build the first huts for housing and temples for the gods also made of reeds. It was in a place called Eridu, the first identified settlement in South Mesopotamia and city dedicated to Enki, where "kingship descended from the heavens to the land". Ningikuga is therefore a very old Goddess, who tell us of the beginnings of organised life, once reeds were used to build houses, temples, furniture, sailing rafts, as well as fences to prevent flooding the neighbouring areas. Her relationship with Enki dates therefore from the very beginning of urbanised life in Sumer. Their daughter, Ningal, is said to be young and pretty, as well as to possess the gift to unveil the language of the Unknown revealed in images, age-old legends, poetry and most of all, in dreams. Thus, in her we have another timeless archetype of wholeness: She is the goddess of Dream Interpretation, of insight and divination, therefore somewhat reserved, living with her mother in the fertile marshlands of South Mesopotamia. And it is Ningal who first falls in love with Nanna, as the young lord progressed upon the night skies |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2017 : 16:11:50
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So, the Ningal in the 3e FRCS was a goddess? Or either, a demigoddess--- I can work with that. That certainly will allow me to bring her back. She was a cleric of (guess who?) Selūne, so, I guess demigoddess would fit better.
I was reading some notes in this forum, that will allow us to connect Ningal to the Legion of Nanna-Sin.
And I guess that Ningal will end up allied with Tymanther against current Unther, that its all good to me (I don't have love for Gilgeam), but would be not so good for those who love Gilgeam... |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 10 Sep 2017 16:22:41 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2017 : 17:03:03
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Isn't Ramman the God of tasty noodles? Maybe he only 'came around' after they started having diplomatic relations with Shou-Lung?
Okay... I haven't finished my coffee yet... I'll crawl back into my hole now... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1625 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2017 : 18:27:39
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| I think it's just Selune assumed Nanna Sin's identity for a time to help convert Untherites after Gilgeams death, but that meant caring for his body become Selune's responsibility. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2017 : 18:39:21
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That makes wonder why Selūne just discarded the region after the Spellplague. Yeah, she helped Thymara and the dragonborn to survive the first days (or months) after the Spellplague. But she left to them the responsibility to care for Nanna-Sin's body and left the dragonborn to their own devices after that.
Seems illogical that a god would just discard a lot of potential worshipers because reasons. And while we can argue that this was because the dragonborn are agnostics, that is not enterily correct, seeing that most of them are prone to the worship of Bahamut and Tiamat, even when they are wary of gods and hate dragons (and Bahamut and Tiamat are dragon gods). Heck, Bahamut's Platinum Cadre is even a religion officially sanctioned by the government, as per the Brotherhood of the Griffon novels), they also worship a few human gods whose faith is not too picky about the racial origin of their worshipers (Tempus, Torm, the Red Knight), and when Enlil appeared, they just accepted him, and gave him an officially sanctioned place in their culture as well, just because he showed to be useful to their needs.
Was Selūne only interested in humans? That's quite racist for a goddess of tolerance... |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 10 Sep 2017 18:47:46 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2017 : 12:58:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
So, the Ningal in the 3e FRCS was a goddess? Or either, a demigoddess--- I can work with that. That certainly will allow me to bring her back. She was a cleric of (guess who?) Selūne, so, I guess demigoddess would fit better.
I was reading some notes in this forum, that will allow us to connect Ningal to the Legion of Nanna-Sin.
And I guess that Ningal will end up allied with Tymanther against current Unther, that its all good to me (I don't have love for Gilgeam), but would be not so good for those who love Gilgeam...
OOOOHHHHHH, So, THAT Ningal is an NPC.... and when you mentioned Ningal in reference to Nanna-Sin, I googled it and came across a "goddess" who was the WIFE of Nanna-sin.
Basically, the real world story is that Ningal (who almost seems mortal in the story) fell in love with the moon. Then one day she got enough courage to tell the moon she loved it, and Nanna-Sin (as the moon) came down and got her to give it up to him in the swamp in the heat of passion. Then he leaves, but a couple days later he wanted more. So, he comes back to earth to get her to meet him back in the swamp, but this time she tells him he has to treat her proper and meet the parents. He relents. They fall in love. Inanna and Utu are born.
For the NPC... it might be interesting if the original Ningal had sent this incarnation of herself to the realms? Or maybe she is a child of Nanna-Sin's who has taken the name of a goddess long dead, etc... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1625 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2021 : 23:13:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I just read the Wiki entry - why would a Sumerian deity destroy Unther's navy?
Is it because "he owed Asmodeus a favor"?
Every time I look back on 4e lore it just gets weirder and weirder.
He was called Su'en in Akkadian - that's phonetically similar sounding to 'Selūne'. Shar and Selūne are apparently much more ancient Gods than we used to think - their existence predates Abeir and Toril, and they were probably involved in the Dawnwar (which should have taken place over the First World. Since we really have no way of knowing how much time passed between the shattering of the First world (the birth of the current multiverse) and War of Light & Darkness (which seems to have culminated in the first Sundering), either or both of those beings may have 'begat' numerous 'lesser gods' in various Crystal Spheres. I have no problem with that - apparently that conflict escalated to include many powerful entities, and some of them may have been ones they, themselves, created.
So if Selūne was the original 'Moon Goddess' for the First World (although I'm not quite getting why that would have even needed a moon), nearly all moon deities now existing may be able to trace some lineage back to her (either directly, or by the stealing of power from some of her aspects).
For some reason this all made me look-up Hecate (one of my favorite, least-talked-about, Greek Gods). Wikipedia says "Hecate has been characterized as a pre-Olympian chthonic goddess.". Hmmmm... sounds like Selūne to me. And she is sometimes depicted as having 'three faces' (Selūne, Shar, and Mystra?) It also states, "she is more at home on the fringes than in the center of Greek polytheism. Intrinsically ambivalent and polymorphous, she straddles conventional boundaries and eludes definition." Just substitute 'Faerūnian' for 'Greek' and it sounds very much like it could be Selūne.
Perhaps we should ask Aphrodite... who is Venus... which is Sune-V backwards. Ed's been blending all the pantheons together since the beginning. He was the one who was writing all the articles on the Gods and fiends back in the day, in Dragon Magaizne - much of our 'cosmic D&D lore' came directly from Ed's version of The Forgotten Realms.
EDIT:
Okay, going one step further and reading more of the Wiki, Hecate, Artemis, and Apollo were all cousins (Hecate's mother was Asteria, sister to Leto, who was the twins' mother) So we got two moon goddesses (note Shar's symbol is a 'dark moon'), and one sun god. Sounds like the makings of the draconic creation myths right there.
Phoebe, and ancient Titaness (Primordial) was grandmother to them.
Its more complicated then that, a large group of Untherites realizing that new Gilgeam is nuts, seek sancuarary with Tymanther, so given Tymanther largely converts to the faith of his Father, Enlil, Nanna Sin likely sees Tymanther as the truer successor to Ancient Unther, with Gilgeam lead Unther as uspurerers and tyrants lead by a formerily dead God (who may or may not even be the real Gilgeam).
Anyways I raised this thread back up through the darkest arts of necromancy because in the upcoming Fizban's Treasury of Dragons, lead designer James Wyatt, there is a Great Wyrm Dragon Turtle and I thought if any mamed Dragon Turtle would be a Great Wyrm, it'd be the one Nanna Sin merged with.
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Edited by - Gyor on 18 Jul 2021 23:15:40 |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1625 Posts |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2021 : 00:59:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
Its more complicated then that, a large group of Untherites realizing that new Gilgeam is nuts, seek sancuarary with Tymanther, so given Tymanther largely converts to the faith of his Father, Enlil, Nanna Sin likely sees Tymanther as the truer successor to Ancient Unther, with Gilgeam lead Unther as uspurerers and tyrants lead by a formerily dead God (who may or may not even be the real Gilgeam).
Anyways I raised this thread back up through the darkest arts of necromancy because in the upcoming Fizban's Treasury of Dragons, lead designer James Wyatt, there is a Great Wyrm Dragon Turtle and I thought if any mamed Dragon Turtle would be a Great Wyrm, it'd be the one Nanna Sin merged with.
I wouldn't say convert, I would rather say "tolerate". And I also wouldn't say "largely". Not in this generation, at least. Perhaps the next would see a more normalized religious life for the dragonborn, but not in the current generation.
And yeah, I also think that dragon turtle would be retconned into a Great Wyrm dragon turtle, possibly because its fusion with Nanna-Sin, lol |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2021 : 21:58:22
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| FYI, Selune taking on an aspect of Nanna-Sin was first mentioned in the Citadel of Black Ash entry in 2E's Powers & Pantheons. |
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Selūne-Nanna-Sin's relationship
