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pukunui
Seeker
64 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Sep 2017 : 08:34:07
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Hi all,
Does anyone know if the Kingdom of Many Arrows still exists in the 5e era? It appears on the map in the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide, and is mentioned in relation to the recent War of the Silver Marches, but it is absent from the map and guide to the North in Storm King's Thunder.
Do any of the novels touch on its fate? Did it dissolve at the end of the war?
Thanks in advance.
Regards,
Jonathan
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2017 : 19:48:02
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Until a product mentions it, its in that limbo "its there if you want it to be".
Although, if it appeared on a 5e map (the SCAG), then I would say its there, in canon, in 5e. We just don't know what 'there' really means.
EDIT:
I just realized, you also mentioned it in regards to an actual printed piece of lore, so YEAH, its definitely there canonically. Unless something that comes out later specifically says its not, then it is. There are TONS of things missing off the SKT map, so that doesn't really mean anything. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Sep 2017 19:50:34 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2017 : 20:09:56
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| If is in the gigantic map of the north, then it is there still. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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pukunui
Seeker
64 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2017 : 23:04:51
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quote:
EDIT:
I just realized, you also mentioned it in regards to an actual printed piece of lore, so YEAH, its definitely there canonically. Unless something that comes out later specifically says its not, then it is. There are TONS of things missing off the SKT map, so that doesn't really mean anything.
Yeah, there are multiple entries for it in the SCAG index, but they all point to sections of the text dealing with the War of the Silver Marches. There's no summary of its current status, though. And it doesn't get mentioned at all in SKT. |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2017 : 23:33:39
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| So at the end of the Salvatore novels, the dwarves level the capital IIRC, so while there is territory that is still controlled by orcs, its more likely that they have fallen to squabbling amongst themselves at this point and there is no "kingdom" in the sense of a society with one ruler anymore. |
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pukunui
Seeker
64 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2017 : 00:30:34
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quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
So at the end of the Salvatore novels, the dwarves level the capital IIRC, so while there is territory that is still controlled by orcs, its more likely that they have fallen to squabbling amongst themselves at this point and there is no "kingdom" in the sense of a society with one ruler anymore.
Great. Thanks! I wish they'd put something like that in the SCAG. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2017 : 12:25:31
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quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
So at the end of the Salvatore novels, the dwarves level the capital IIRC, so while there is territory that is still controlled by orcs, its more likely that they have fallen to squabbling amongst themselves at this point and there is no "kingdom" in the sense of a society with one ruler anymore.
It is indeed about one ruler, not the capital. Though for a while they can live without one, if shamans act just right. But also general sense of united purpose.
So if there's a chieftain who can seize a good chunk of this power or there are enough of orcs who think they belong to the Kingdom of Many Arrows first, rather than their ancestral tribes, the kingdom may go on.
There's also worship of Obould, the mighty champion of Gruumsh.
And some renegade and marooned Scro (e.g. Thergod) who know that the push to shape up and have a tribal coalition formed around following of an Almighty Leader does, indeed, work - and exactly how. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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moonbeast
Senior Scribe
USA
522 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2017 : 04:26:28
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My understanding is that by the 5E era, there is an orc successor king to the original legendary Obould. Something like King Obould XVIII. or something like that….
Although orc politics being a largely chaotic affair, you can never be sure if the current (latest) Obould is actually a legitimate blood descendant of the original Obould the First, or maybe a pretender to the crown, or maybe a distant long lost grand-nephew, etc. Or maybe a Doppleganger. Or Rakshasa illusionist-pretender. The orcs are not very bright, they can easily be duped by anyone that possesses supreme powers of disguise/shapeshifting. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2017 : 09:36:20
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
There's also worship of Obould, the mighty champion of Gruumsh.
And some renegade and marooned Scro (e.g. Thergod) who know that the push to shape up and have a tribal coalition formed around following of an Almighty Leader does, indeed, work - and exactly how.
I'm not sure that would work as well, in the Realms. Dukagsh's followers had a single victorious enemy to rally against, and were isolated from everyone. Obould's orcs were not isolated, nor defeated -- which makes it that much harder to rally the group around one leader and convince them that they needed to become something else entirely. They lacked the focus and unity of a badly defeated group, and being in the middle of multiple potential enemies means they can't focus on any one group of them.
Even if Thergod had been forced into the same situation as Dukagsh, he still may not have been the right scro to redo what Dukagsh did. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2017 : 21:17:52
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| I'd add in that orcs being CE, the establishment of a kingdom is... challenging, especially in the absence of a very powerful unifying force like Obould. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2017 : 00:27:12
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quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
I'd add in that orcs being CE, the establishment of a kingdom is... challenging, especially in the absence of a very powerful unifying force like Obould.
This is part of why I've always hated the development of a kingdom -- especially from the Chosen of a deity dedicated to conquest. Sure, they conquered, but then they settled and started trying to get along with their neighbors.
As I've said in the past, it is my opinion that orcs would be far more likely to lose their warlike tendencies if they didn't have any potential enemies around. If orcs were isolated, I think they would eventually settle down and become more peacefully inclined.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 08 Sep 2017 00:27:54 |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2017 : 22:24:39
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| I've always preferred to see Obould as more Ilneval's chosen than Gruumsh and to see Ilneval as NE if not LE. It's not that I minded so much the move between 2E and 3E in making orcs CE instead of LE (we needed a "good" CE race), but they didn't always handle the lore shift well. Bahgtru should be LE based on his description or maybe just NE, same with Luthic and probably Shargaas, that leaves Gruumsh and Yurtrus as CE, which is fine. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2017 : 00:27:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm not sure that would work as well, in the Realms. Dukagsh's followers had a single victorious enemy to rally against, and were isolated from everyone. Obould's orcs were not isolated, nor defeated -- which makes it that much harder to rally the group around one leader and convince them that they needed to become something else entirely.
If the dwarves razed their capital, that's enough of a wake-up call.
The rest can be down to Great Obould and His way. After all, when the orcs followed him, they were victorious.
They started slacking and wandering off, they were beaten, they need to resume the once-victorious path?
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Even if Thergod had been forced into the same situation as Dukagsh, he still may not have been the right scro to redo what Dukagsh did.
Uh, Obould already did most of the job. The scro may help with adding confidence, being witnesses of a similar way actually working.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
This is part of why I've always hated the development of a kingdom -- especially from the Chosen of a deity dedicated to conquest. Sure, they conquered, but then they settled and started trying to get along with their neighbors.
What's the problem with this? No mortal can brandish an axe non-stop day and night anyway.
Peace is the time to rest and prepare for the next war. The object in war is a better state of peace. 
quote:
As I've said in the past, it is my opinion that orcs would be far more likely to lose their warlike tendencies if they didn't have any potential enemies around.
So? Why would losing warlike tendencies help with having a stable large kingdom, of all things?
There's a great enough distance between "Burn! Maim! Kill!" and "Enemies around! Stay strong! Stay vigilant!", but they don't need to move a hair's breadth past the latter. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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The Kingdom of Many Arrows
