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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Aug 2017 : 14:22:36
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One thing that just occurred to me is that Nezram the World Walker is this Mulhorandi mage who tends to show up when things go bad for the Mulhorandi. Then he's gone "off walking the planes". While this can very well make sense, it should also be noted that he is mentioned in the reference to the font of time in the Old Empires book. So, that got me to thinking that maybe Nezram isn't out wandering the planes. Maybe Nezram is from the future and he's coming to the past when he's needed. Thus, during the sundering he led the rebellion, possibly with full knowledge of what date the Mulan people would be returning and where.
So, as I thought on that, it got me to thinking about the idea of the "God Kings" / "incarnations" / "manifestations".... and could it be a great big secret that the God Kings aka incarnations are actually powerful individuals from the future coming to the past and possessing the bodies of the rulers of Mulhorand? This might thus explain the sudden power boost in incarnations. Opens up some weird options with manifestations as well that I haven't even begun to think through.... or even something unusual like an avatar in the future being sent to possess the body of a descendant.
I almost hate myself for bringing up this concept.... but its worth reviewing at least to see if we can do something with it.
From Old Empires, page 86
This powerful artifact is located somewhere in eastern Mulhorand. Little is known about it, except for a few words in the Unique Mageries, a book of spells belonging to the wizard Nezram:
"#147;Of all the artifacts created by the ancients, the most marvelous and terrifying was the great Font. This was a pearl-white pool, contained in a milk colored crystal that appeared in a mirage in the eastern wastes. The waters were too bitter to drink. But if one looked into the font in the light of a full moon, one could see scenes from the antiquity of Mulhorand that one would swear were real. And indeed they are. For if one concentrates on that image#151;
...but I shall say no more, in hopes that none shall follow where I have traveled.#148;"
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2536 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2017 : 14:49:32
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We have canon "proof" that he was wandering the planes, at least at some point, as he is the cause the sarrukh of Okoth returned to Faerūn.
"In the Year of the Nesting Harpy (643 DR), Nezram the Transmuter, author of the famed spell tome boastfully entitled Unique Mageries, left his tower on the western shore of Lake Azulduth to explore the outer planes. [...] Unbeknownst to anyone else, Nezram had spent a great deal of time studying the ancient legacies of Okoth and knew of the sarrukh. When he discovered an ancient portal in the depths of Azulduth, he passed through it in hopes of discovering what had become of these once-mighty creatures. Nezrams fate is not recorded, but an ancient warding spell alerted the scattered sarrukh clans to the use of their long forgotten portal and prompted at least one group to return secretly to Faerūn in the Year of the Rampaging Raaserpents (699 DR) to investigate."
This is from Serpent Kingdoms, p. 115 |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2017 : 14:55:38
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Him - Nezram - traveling through time could work (easily, given the quote), but I would actually have him from the past than 'the future'. Being from the future... and knowing the future... is just a bit too OP. On the other hand, the quote doesn't say a thing about the future, so it could be one-way, and it took Nezram a very long time to figure-out how to 'get back' to his own time.
Perhaps he ran into the Chronomancer and asked him. 
Or maybe... he IS the Chronomaner! {Da da Duuuh!}
The stuff about the aspects/incarnations/manifestations I'm not loving. They are already a confusing mess IMO, and adding that to them would just make it worse, without really adding anything worthwhile to the mix.
Doesn't Unther refer to its elite soldiers as 'Immortals'? I think for 5e (or the CandleKanon, although it may be a bit too much) I wouldn't mind seeing Unther getting a hold of an 'invincible army of (undying?) soldiers', and retaking Chessenta (most of it, anyway). Mulhorand is too busy licking its wounds from Imaskar and its own century-long trip to another world, so it would be the perfect time for Unther to come back into its own, as the 'mighty, ancient empire' it was meant to be. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2017 : 15:00:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
We have canon "proof" that he was wandering the planes, at least at some point, as he is the cause the sarrukh of Okoth returned to Faerūn.
"In the Year of the Nesting Harpy (643 DR), Nezram the Transmuter, author of the famed spell tome boastfully entitled Unique Mageries, left his tower on the western shore of Lake Azulduth to explore the outer planes. [...] Unbeknownst to anyone else, Nezram had spent a great deal of time studying the ancient legacies of Okoth and knew of the sarrukh. When he discovered an ancient portal in the depths of Azulduth, he passed through it in hopes of discovering what had become of these once-mighty creatures. Nezrams fate is not recorded, but an ancient warding spell alerted the scattered sarrukh clans to the use of their long forgotten portal and prompted at least one group to return secretly to Faerūn in the Year of the Rampaging Raaserpents (699 DR) to investigate."
This is from Serpent Kingdoms, p. 115
True, maybe a better phrasing is that he is periodically showing up from the future, and during these times he may be traversing other planes, etc... but he's showing up at critical times in history to "fix issues for the betterment of the empire". This may explain why he's gone for centuries at a time, rather than the concept that he's spending centuries roaming elsewhere and then periodically showing up on a world that he has had little involvement with to suddenly enact something. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2536 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2017 : 15:56:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Doesn't Unther refer to its elite soldiers as 'Immortals'? I think for 5e (or the CandleKanon, although it may be a bit too much) I wouldn't mind seeing Unther getting a hold of an 'invincible army of (undying?) soldiers', and retaking Chessenta (most of it, anyway). Mulhorand is too busy licking its wounds from Imaskar and its own century-long trip to another world, so it would be the perfect time for Unther to come back into its own, as the 'mighty, ancient empire' it was meant to be.
Thing with Unther is that is in a situation similar to that of Mulhorand, licking its own wounds because the same: a trip to another world (and unlike Mulhorand, they were annihilated in Toril for one century), and the utter annihilation of nearly all its armies against the dragonborn in 1487 DR.
While Chessenta, is practically at its near-strongest (the Karanoks lost their hold on the whole country, but their army is still strong). |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 29 Aug 2017 16:04:07 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2017 : 23:23:14
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Yeah, I'm not big on having Chessenta taken over, nor do I want to see it unified under Luthcheq. What I'd like to see is Chessenta changed though. Keep the city state ideal, but make it more racially diverse which can serve for a bit more believable conflict. Before we had all the city states fighting, and that was good, but it was strictly "I love my city" that was driving things. Meanwhile, most of those Chessentans had very similar viewpoints (granted, the Cimbar and Akanax were as different as Athens and Sparta) in that they all favored physical skills, etc...
I'd also like to see something along the lines of Returned Chessenta and existing Chessenta not necessarily getting along. A century apart changes things. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2017 : 03:17:49
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the only problem with Nezram meeting the Cronomancer or being the Cronomancer is that Mystryl/Mystra and oghma have agents guarding the river of time and the time travel magics only goes in the past adn the time portals are likely 1 way or are creature only.
travel the planes he must have all the way to Krynn ( Dragonlance) and got one of the robed wizards there to give him a copy of their time reaver spell( iirc that was its name) and used it to get back to his own time. |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2017 : 03:48:31
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Maybe he's not actually showing up... Maybe he's got some mechanism in place that wakes up a clone. The clone does what is necessary, and either goes back into stasis until the next time, or it deactivates and the next one in line is prepped.
...Though a more logical explanation is that Nezram actually pops in a lot more frequently than anyone realizes, he just maintains a low profile most of the time. |
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BadCatMan
Senior Scribe
Australia
407 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2017 : 04:52:19
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| So Nezram is basically a Time Lord? :D |
BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
Scientific technical editor
Head DM of the Realms of Adventure play-by-post community
Administrator of the Forgotten Realms Wiki |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2017 : 06:12:36
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quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan
So Nezram is basically a Time Lord? :D
YUP 
I guess you guys are 'Chessenta fans' - I never was.
And the only reason why I thought Unther coming back 'stronger than ever' (much more so than Mulhorand) was just using the Spellplague McGuffin to restore the equilibrium in the region we had in 1e/2e (and maybe even get it back something closer to what Ed had there). So, for once I wasn't thinking so much in 'logical terms' (because really, Unther should just be GONE), but rather, in terms of restoring the Realms "as they should be".
And to be honest, the Old Empires have always been my least favorite (FR) place. I don't know why - maybe its because they (Tsr/WotC) chose to mostly ignore it, and then when they finally do decide to update it for 3e, it falls inside a tome literally entitled "Lost Empires". Well, gee... I kinda wanna know about the NOT lost empires. Its funny, because Golarion's Osirion isn't all that different (flavor-wise) than Mulhorand, and yet its a LOT more interesting. I think its just the approach - its a living, breathing kingdom, not a dead one, like how the present Mulhorand.
On the other hand, Unther has always confused me. Its in a worse place (both physically and mentally) because its the "and here is another old, dead empire... ho hum", and its in a place that really can't go anywhere (speaking physically, but also metaphorically, I suppose). Unless it eats Chessenta, whats it going to do? Take over the Shaar? It tried that. Didn't work out so good. I feel like - for a place thats represented as 'monolithic', its instead tiny and insignificant. Its just doesn't live up to its own hype (or history). It needs to push into somewhere. We got a LOT of territory back in 5e - Unther can push into the region below The Akanamere (Old Akanul). That would leave the region above for Chessenta, still. Maybe Chessenta can eat The Blade Kingdoms (I mean, technically, aren't they really part of it anyway? They aren't Chondath). A powerful and aggressive Unther might be a very good reason for the cities of Chessenta to have to work together (in a 'Game of Thrones' kind of way).
And I know this went off-topic, but I was trying to connect the 'time portal' thingie to maybe the 'Immortals' army Unther has. I know 'time theories' aren't all that popular around here, but what if part of the reason for the name is that Unther replaces lost 'Immortals' with heroes from the past? In that way, they are constantly replenishing their numbers with people who should be dead (hence the name), but at the same time, that could be a reason for its slow demise. They are literally unraveling their own great history by pulling these people out of their past. Their 'great & glorious past' has turned into a mockery of itself. Its mediocre, at best, now. They grab some might warrior from three centuries past, and the big statue of him in front of the palace just fades away. That sort of thing.
And now I think my brain s dipping a bit into Pern.
And Nezram as a time traveler works - the temporal Prime is just another plane, after all. And his connection with the Font of Time seems to indicate he's 'dabbled' in that regard.
Scenario #1
Nezram: Hey ancient Chondath elves, whats this lever for?
Ancient Chondath Elf King: The lands to the north of us used to be a wide flood-plain, but we blocked-off the narrow channel that connected it to the Inner Sea. That lever blows up the damn.
Nezram: Well, then I better... OOPS! {Oh noes! Jhaamdath! Noooo!}
Scenario #2
Karsus: Okay everybody, once I cast this spell I need to maintain extreme concentration, lest I loose control of the Weave, got it? Everyone just stay perfectly still and don't say a word for the next few minutes. {casts spell}
{*** POOF! ***}
Nezram: Hi everybody!!! Oh my god! You must be Lord Karsus! I am so dying to meet you! {runs at him}
{karsus grabs head and starts screaming. Then everyone else starts screaming...}
Nezram: Oops... gotta run. Nice meeting you guys! {POOF!}
Then again, maybe not.
EDIT:
Nezram: Hey! Aren't you guys the walking statues?
Walking statues: Who are you? Exterminate! Exterminate!
Nezram: Geeze! You guys are worse than those Yuan-ti that tried to 'upgrade' me!
Naaaahhhhhhhh... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 30 Aug 2017 06:20:42 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2536 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2017 : 09:08:48
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I don't care for Chessenta really. I'm just not a fan of Gilgeam. So, whatever is valid to hinder him to gain more power in the area, even stressing the fact that Chessenta is nearly as its strongest while Unther currently is tiny and weak, in canon.
As for the Old Empires, I don't like the idea of 'living dead empires' as well. That's why I liked more the area while in the pre-Second Sundering era. Full of thriving nations evolving to civilization (as known in the rest of Toril), instead of slowly dying realms that were near to die in 3e already. I don't like the fact that they returned Unther and Mulhorand in 5e, as I don't see the necessity of those nations in the Realms (but then, I'm not a fan of the copy-pasted places in the Realms, either. I prefer the original ones). But I can live with it...
Though, Mulhorand is now rebuilding, with stronger God-Kings and the like. That will help to make the place more to the level of the rest of Faerūn, we can even "export" Osirion to the Realms that way.
But mind, I don't know what were the original plans Ed have for the area. Not even knew the published Old Empires were different from Ed's ones.
quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan
So Nezram is basically a Time Lord? :D
Seeing his adventures in Markustay's post, Nezram was Doctor Woah (?) |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 30 Aug 2017 11:46:39 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2017 : 12:30:03
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quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan
So Nezram is basically a Time Lord? :D
I hear he uses offering jelly babies candies to defuse tense situations, so not everything has to be handled with a heavy handed burst of magic. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2017 : 12:44:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Maybe he's not actually showing up... Maybe he's got some mechanism in place that wakes up a clone. The clone does what is necessary, and either goes back into stasis until the next time, or it deactivates and the next one in line is prepped.
...Though a more logical explanation is that Nezram actually pops in a lot more frequently than anyone realizes, he just maintains a low profile most of the time.
And maybe when he went back in time he did something that basically caused a strange conflict. He fathered a child using the body of the individual he was in, but it turns out that this person was his many generations back grandfather. Then maybe he's developed a spell that lets him inhabit a "descendant" of his. Not sure if I like it, just exploring the options, and I know sometimes saying something like this triggers someone else (like I do like your idea of latent clones, and I think this maybe improves upon that concept).
Another option to throw into all this is like one of you (think Markustay) said, in that Nezram is FROM the past... but somehow he's travelled to the future physically, and now he's using the font of time to manipulate the past.
Oh, and wow.... I know that Thayd sounds like a "Suel Lich", but not Suel... but the idea of possessing individuals for a short term and then going back to your own body.... What if Thayd was an Imaskari in the future who also used the font of time, but Nezram killed his real body... so he has nothing to return to... and that turned him into this being who possesses bodies and burns them out. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2017 : 17:10:32
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I've toyed with Thayd as an imaskari, but it gets complicated.
I've taken to calling those things 'Ghost liches', so as not to confuse people with the 'Suel' name (same thing, and they may be related somehow, but 'Ghost lich' is a generic, non-setting specific name). Also, I have it where Tan Chin can only activate some of his ancient magic when he inhabits descendants (I had to add that, because some of that is covered in Ronin Challenge). Thus, he has 'ancient, buried magic' cached all over the eastern realms, but he needs (bloodline) descendants to access it. I never thought to say Sule/Ghost liches can only inhabit descendants, because that would be VERY limiting (a lich that can't 'come back' unless someone he is related to happens by? TOO RISKY).
Thus, maybe Nezram had something similar - only someone with his bloodline could open certain 'secret vaults', etc.
Do we actually know how old Nezram is? Could he be a half-breed? (First generation Mulan), and he is the one responsible for "helping his mother's people's plight" (for all we know, HE went to Earth - or wherever - and got those pantheons to travel to Toril). My thoughts are that he is Mulan (thus his love for Mulhorand), but maybe he was trained as an artificer? Just a 'bastard' or some such that was extremely talented? ('Magical John Snow' LOL) |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 31 Aug 2017 00:09:27 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2536 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2017 : 18:03:58
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| Doing some calculations, he must be at least 900 years old by the time of the current canon timeline, assuming he was "young" during its first historical mention (600+ DR). |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2017 : 18:37:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I've toyed with thayd as an imaskari, but it get complicated.
I've taken to calling those things 'Ghost liches', so as not to confuse people with the 'Suel' name (same thing, and they may be related somehow, but 'Ghost lich' is a generic, non-setting specific name). Also, I have it where tan Chin can only activate some of his ancient magic when he inhabits descendents (I had to add that, because some of that is covered in Ronin Challenge). Thus, he has 'ancient, buried magic' cached all over the eastern realms, but he needs (bloodline) descendents to access it. I never thought to say Sule/Ghost liches can only inhabit descendents, because that would be VERY limiting (a lich that can't 'come back' unless someone he is related to happens by? TOO RISKY).
Thus, maybe Nezram had something similar - only someone with his bloodline could open certain 'secret vaults', etc.
Do we actually know how old Nezram is? Could he be a half-breed? (First generation Mulan), and he is the one responsible for "helping his mother's people's plight" (for all we know, HE went to Earth - or wherever - and got those pantheons to travel to Toril). My thoughts are that he is Mulan (thus his love for Mulhorand), but maybe he was trained as an artificer? Just a 'bastard' or some such that was extremely talented? ('Magical John Snow' LOL)
In canon, Thayd was Imaskari, or at least he had studied their magical procedures. In fact, I think somewhere a long time ago, they called him one of the last Imaskari. This was of course before we find out about Halaster and Madryoch and that other guy from dragon mag.
I like the term ghost lich... has possibilities.
Also, your idea about descendants having access to certain places, etc... yes, that's very much the type of thing I'm thinking. He may have magic items that are keyed to only work for members of his bloodline, etc...
As to Nezram's age... we have no real info. I don't even believe we have a physical description.
We do have these entries from Old Empires
643 DR The wizard Nezram leaves his tower on the shores of Azulduth. Note: this means his tower is on the shores of the lake that the Sarrukh are under.
681 DR Nezram#146;s tower destroyed by the green dragon, Chathuulandroth. Nezram'#146;s children scattered or slain.
Also, we have some snippets of lore about Nezram, including the fact that his descendants are living in the Plains of Purple Dust (the old Imaskari lands)
The answer is not written in the tomes of Thoth, but Tholaunt, incarnation of Thoth, says that there is a legend that the archmage Nezram once quieted a skriaxit without being harmed; this knowledge might be known to the Nezramites, the descendants of
Nezram.
The PCs would have to travel to the Plains of Purple Dust, where the
Nezramites live, and persuade them to tell them how. There is one problem#151; the Nezramites don#146;t like strangers! It is up to the PCs to figure out a way to deal with their hostility, then get enough animals
together to stop the skriaxit.
and this
In the northeastern portion of the Eastern Shaar is Azulduth, the Lake of Salt. This place is renowned by wizards for its healing properties. Many have made the journey southward to bathe in its waters, which are said to be so buoyant that it is impossible to sink.
This lake is the source of the River of Swords that forms the border of Mulhorand and Unther. On its far northeastern shore is the ruined tower of Nezram, who is accounted the greatest Mulhorand mage of this age. The tower was destroyed by the green dragon Chathuulandroth seven centuries ago. There are, of course, rumors of untouched
chambers in the tower#146;s foundation that may contain Nezram#146;s greatest secrets.
and this
There are two oases in the plains: the Grinning Skull, where a large pool of water is shielded by the skull of a dead great wyrm, and the Lonely Lake, which lies to the east of the Sword Mountains. The Grinning Skull is usually frequented by mongrelmen, while the Lonely Lake is held by a family of wizards descended from the great Mulhorand mage Nezram, who disappeared mysteriously centuries ago. The
Nezramites, as they are called, are suspicious of strangers, especially adventuring companies; their only friends are the human nomads that live in the western section of the plains.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 30 Aug 2017 18:53:36 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2017 : 00:27:55
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Now thats funny - before I even finished reading what you posted, I was thinking the Lonely Lake area would be the perfect spot to stick them.
And BTW, that also puts them in the same vicinity as Sonjar's Tower (LEoF, pg.72) |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 31 Aug 2017 00:29:03 |
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Font of Time / Nezram / God Kings
