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Originally posted by Markustay

She had a part in that storyline?

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Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

So in your homebrew, Jergal has power over the other gods, because he can judge them, or did I read it wrong?

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Originally posted by Cyrinishad

Wow, this scroll turned into a lot of great ideas about the Raven Queen... I must confess that I really do like the Raven Queen... So, here's some of my homebrew Lore about how I've incorporated her into my Realms (may as well toss it into the mix of this Sagely Brainstorming session):

After Cyric killed Mystra & unleashed the Spellplague... Kelemvor was consumed by grief and sorrow when the souls of those who died in the Spellplague suddenly flooded the Fugue Plane, and among them was the mortal soul of Ariel/Midnight... Her soul had been fragmented from Mystra when Cyric struck the fatal blow... Kelemvor embraced Midnight, but she did not recognize him, her memories were no longer part of her soul... Asmodeus sensed an opportunity and whispered into Kelemvor's ear... "Where will her soul go now that Mystra is no more?" mused Asmodeus, "With no god to claim her soul, and no memory of who she was, will you judge her faithless? Or merely let this echo of her former self wander the Fugue for eternity? Perhaps she would be willing to join me at my side as my Dark Queen."... Kelemvor glared at Asmodeus, feeling anger rising within himself about his inevitable responsibility to judge her soul... Tyr, Lathander, and Sune arrived to claim souls, and proudly inform Kelemvor that they had delivered justice and imprisoned Cyric for his crimes... Asmodeus scoffed at the three gods, “The casual hypocrisy of the gods always amuses me. Justice, Beauty, and Life gleefully reaping the harvest of Injustice, Horror, and Death… Magnificent.”… Kelemvor’s sorrow turned to fury, “What did he give you to let him live?!”… The three gods seemed confused… “What did he give you to protect him from me?!” Kelemvor raged, “You didn’t imprison him, you have shielded him! Cyric is the one that should be consigned to the Wall of the Faithless, not Midnight! I will kill Cyric, I will have Vengeance!”… Jergal interjected and revealed an unforeseen possibility to Kelemvor, “Although you cannot escape the inevitability of your responsibility to judge mortal souls, there is a silver lining to this circumstance. Long ago, there was one who ascended to divinity after her death, but her name has been forgotten to all except me, the scribe of the dead. It could be Midnight’s Fate to be at your side for eternity as your Raven-haired Queen. You can have your Vengeance. You merely need to make me a promise.”… Kelemvor stared at Jergal… “The Sundering has allowed the gods to return to Toril, but that is cheating Fate. Death must be the final Fate of all, even the gods.” Jergal proclaimed… Kelemvor solemnly vowed, “If she can be at my side, I swear I will do whatever is necessary to ensure the gods meet their Fate. And when they do, I will judge them the same way I would have judged Midnight's mortal soul. FAITHLESS!”

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"As the putative sovereign of the Shadowfell, the Raven Queen is fate’s instrument. All souls come to the Shadowfell, and sooner or later they pass through the Raven Queen’s Citadel in Letherna, except for those souled undead that evade the fate she decrees."

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Originally posted by Markustay

I don't know, I think part of the sheer beauty of it is its simplicity. Kelemvor didn't have to make any deals - he is the final judge of the dead in FR, and he could have judged her NOT 'faithless', merely false, and she would have been in his Realm regardless. Part of why I like it is because he was basically duped (1st by Asmodeus and then by Jergal) into becoming an 'outsider' where the other gods are concerned (which is how most death-gods are portrayed anyway). I think he's been angry at 'the Gods' every since the ToT - he didn't want any of this, and he certainly didn't want to be separated from Midnight (or have her sleeping with some 1000-year-old perv because 'its part of her job'). I think he's resentful, and jumped at any reason to 'judge them'.

I'm still trying to figure-out how Nerull survived his own death (since that plays into this through Kiaransalee, so we get to keep a smidge of that theory as well). Hmmmm... Nerull.. Nergal... Jergal... Something there, sort of.

I went looking for something (which I haven't found yet) in one of the few 4e sources I have (Open Grave - is that the only sourcebook linked to the Shadowfell, BTW?), and I found this concerning the Raven Queen:

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"As the putative sovereign of the Shadowfell, the Raven Queen is fate’s instrument. All souls come to the Shadowfell, and sooner or later they pass through the Raven Queen’s Citadel in Letherna, except for those souled undead that evade the fate she decrees."

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Aside from me now having to call the 'Ghetto of the Godless' Letherna (and say its connected to both Kel's realm and the Shadowfell, which makes perfect sense), We have that bit about TRQ being THE god of 'all things shadowy'. Thats got a major conflict with FR lore. I don't see how someone who is considered 'the sovereign of the Shadowfell' can coexist with Shar. Its almost as if she is supposed to be a Core version of Shar. The fact that we are currently trying to turn the TRQ into Midnight (Mystra) is some serious juxtapositioning.

What IF... Midnight was Shar's daughter...
I mean, think about it. The name alone...

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Originally posted by Zeromaru X

In 4e, the Plane of Shadow is the Shadowfell. They are not distinct places, are one and the same, as per the Manual of Planes. The only difference is the name.

Yeah, the FRCG says that "Shar created the Shadowfell", but that makes no sense with the fact that the Dawn War is also a FR stuff, and the Shadowfell predates the Dawn War. So, that stuff of Shar "creating the Shadowfell" is Sharran propaganda, to the level of "Asmodeus ended the Blood War" (and we know that is not true. Even 4e products denied that).

As for the Shadowfell proper, mind, the concept was created with Forgotten Realms in mind, and later adapted and used in core products and the other 4e settings (this is revealed in Dragon 370). So, really dunno why they changed stuff, but was stuff created for the Realms and exported to 4e core, not the reverse.

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Originally posted by Zeromaru X

BTW, here is an idea on how to make magic usable in Abeir without using meddling gods in that world (well, we can use gods in Abeir, but not as the source of arcane magic, as we need a way to explain why Abeirans were able to use magic before those gods appeared). I guess this can be useful to sleyvas as well.

There is this from Dragon 362:

"For eons, the use of magic in Faerûn was focused through a god of magic, most recently Mystra. Except for certain Netherese wizards of ancient days who learned the truth, most believed that no magic would be possible without such a deity."

So, there is. The netherese knew how to use raw magic. If those secrets somehow were rediscovered by at least one of the zulkirs, they can access raw magic even in Abeir (that we have to suppose, is the only form of arcane magic in that world). This also explains why Szass Tam was able to use magic even in the Wailing Years (as he was trained by Larloch).

I will use it to explain how the mages of Halruaa were somehow able to use magic even in Abeir. Since halruaans are of netherese heritage, is logical that they were aware of this knowledge. They just didn't use it because the Weave is more useful to cast spells. Or because we didn't saw them use it (?). But while on Abeir, they had to use it to survive.

I still want the Wailing Years to be difficult for the displaced Torilians in Abeir (because Torilians just owning Abeiran because reasons is boring). But after that, well, canon says the halruaans thrived. Maybe this will force the halruaans to threat sorcerers with more respect as well (in the first years, sorcerers will be the only ones using magic there), and will allow for the introduction of artificers and such, as in Abeir magic items are more widespread that magic practices. I see stuff like wizardry and sorcery become widespread only after the Spellplague, while the displaced Torilians will logically adopt the practices of the Abeirans in the meantime.

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Originally posted by Zeromaru X

What? Did Helm had a missing lover? And here I though the guy was the boring one of the gods...

Seriously, though... I was thinking something similar. Though instead of using missing gods (that I had no idea they existed), I was thinking in using primordial corpses (a la Tymanchebar... yeah, if you ever wondered from where those dragonborn got their powerful artifacts, they scavenged Primordial tombs and used their remains-this is canon).

I was thinking the Halruaans used the heart/brains of a powerful primordial to create a fake mythallar to emulate the Weave in a given area (their country, in this case). Perhaps, a clan of dragonborn gave them this secret in exchange of allowing them living in their lands (safe and away from dragon overlords, the Shyran and the aberrant lords). This will allow me to develop Arkhosia in the Realms... mmmm....

But, as Abeirans may do not tell the difference between an Estelar and a Primordial...

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