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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Aug 2017 : 02:38:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
So, while magic without Weave must be worked differently (its harder to access, to say) is undeniable most powerful and (more importantly) somewhat unlimited compared with Weave-based magic.
Magic w/o Weave is impossible for mortals, at least according to Magic of Faerun. The birth of Mystryl made magic accessible to mortals by creating the Weave. If it were to *actually* disappear, all the magic in the world would become volatile, create a massive burst, and become inaccessible to mortals. 4e retconned that, but it was retconned back towards the end of 4e. Even in 4e, the Weave was not gone. It was stranded, harder to access, but still there.
The only limit to Weave magic was imposed by Mystra after Netheril. It isn't an inherent limit. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 14 Aug 2017 02:38:52 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2474 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2017 : 02:47:10
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Magic w/o Weave is impossible for mortals, at least according to Magic of Faerun.
This is something that contradicts with the current multiversal approach of D&D in 5e. And even in earlier editions, since in places like Oerth, Krynn or Athas, a mortal can use magic without the Weave. You can even work magic in Abeir, a place that doesn't have a Weave (as per The Devil You Know novel—and even Ed says that the "Weave" of Abeir isn't technically a Weave, in the sense of how works the Weave of Toril), though its more difficult to access magic there. But that is the key, difficult, not imposible.
The Weave is only the channel Mystryl put to magic in Abeir-Toril to have a monopoly of control of magic in this world, not something necessary for mortals to use magic, as other D&D settings show. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 14 Aug 2017 02:48:53 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2017 : 03:05:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Magic w/o Weave is impossible for mortals, at least according to Magic of Faerun.
This is something that contradicts with the current multiversal approach of D&D in 5e. And even in earlier editions, since in places like Oerth, Krynn or Athas, a mortal can use magic without the Weave. You can even work magic in Abeir, a place that doesn't have a Weave (as per The Devil You Know novel—and even Ed says that the "Weave" of Abeir isn't technically a Weave, in the sense of how works the Weave of Toril), though its more difficult to access magic there. But that is the key, difficult, not imposible.
The Weave is only the channel Mystryl put to magic in Abeir-Toril to have a monopoly of control of magic in this world, not something necessary for mortals to use magic, as other D&D settings show.
In 5e, "the Weave" has become a generic term to indicate a source of magic, but on Toril the Weave is actually the Weave that we know and is unique to that world. Magic doesn't need to obey to a fixed set of rules everywhere in the multiverse (different worlds may host a different amount of energy with a different kind of "volatility", for example). Casters who travel between worlds may have to get used, or alter their spellcasting for the magic system in those worlds.
The Weave on Toril wasn't created by Mystryl as a conscious act, Mystryl/Mystra *is* the Weave. It was born as soon as she was created. It isn't a tool to establish a monopoly--Ed states multiple times that Mystra actually strives to *not* be a tyrant, and that she shares the Weave with other deities--it is actually the source of magic on Toril. Before her birth, magic belonged to the gods (or other supernatural creatures of that kind).
I know that 4e tried to retcon it, but it was retconned back in place by Ed's novels. I honestly find the Weave to be a beautiful concept. Magic isn't just a power, it's a living, conscious being, one which is also connected to all other living beings, and to many other deities. Idk why some poeple think that it's related to tyranny. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 14 Aug 2017 03:08:51 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11823 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2017 : 03:14:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
One problem with the idea that magic was stronger without the weave... it quite simply wasn't when comparing earlier editions to later editions. In fact, 4e was so magically stifling it made a lot of us leave because of the mechanic (not wanting to start and edition war, but you seem to be very knowledgable of 4e onwards, so maybe you aren't aware of this). Granted, 4e came up with the concept of rituals, and you have the idea of cantrips that can be cast repeatedly, but that's more or less talking about about relatively minor effects.
While cantrips are minor effect, rituals aren't minor effects at all. Rituals can vary from minor spells to world-shaping spells. Rituals have most of the most powerful spells from earlier editions in 4e (those that imprisoned souls and the like; the 4e FRPG even have a ritual that allowed you to create your own floating island, a la Netheril but without mythallars; and IIRC, Elven High Magic was ritual magic in 4e).
So, yes, there is maybe not the multi-buffing wizard in 4e and 5e, but the wizards have now the ability to cast spells without spending all their slots in doing it. So, in the end, is better than to be a wizard that can multi-buff, but becomes useless for the rest of the day once has "expended" all his magic.
So, while magic without Weave must be worked differently (its harder to access, to say) is undeniable most powerful and (more importantly) somewhat unlimited compared with Weave-based magic.
Powerful rituals require lots of resources and/or time, and I'd bet anyone using the powerful ones constantly wasn't truly keeping track of the costs. Also, those really powerful rituals could only be used by upper echelon casters, who in earlier editions weren't the ones running out of spells in general. So, those really nifty powerful rituals could be done via spells or some rules for magic item creation, etc... in previous editions. Generally, the rituals described in 5e are NOT all that powerful and most are niche rituals. There is also not that many.
The multi-buffing wizard is generally at the upper levels, and they're only doing the multi-buffing on usually one very prep'd encounter that they plan on doing for a day. In previous editions, said mage usually would not be running out of spells in doing so because they're usually at least 12th level. It generally wasn't for the "dungeon crawl" unless it was for some big encounter in which the mage was aware of what's ahead.
This is where the big difference is. In previous editions low level wizards were running out of magic. 3rd edition effectively gave a method for getting rid of that that is kind of like rituals/cantrips, in the form of the ability to make scrolls for cheap at low level. Very few players actually took advantage of it. I have to say I was amazed at that. Never did I see a player come to me with a list of the scrolls that they'd created unless I mentioned it to them. Meanwhile, when I played, I usually was giving the DM a list of several scrolls that my 1st level wizard had. They also came out with an option called reserve feats, in which a caster would gain the equivalent of a certain type of ability similar to a cantrip, but a lot more effective as you leveled up.
It should be noted that in previous editions a lot of the controls that were in place tended to be ignored similar to people ignoring things like ritual costs and the needs for material components. For instance, high level wizards were thought to be using their full complement of spells every day in 2nd edition. However, once you started doing the math, it could easily take them 3 or 4 days of study just to refill their spell slots. This led to screaming that at low levels mages were always out of spells and the upper tiers could cast all day.
I truly feel 3rd edition had a good handle on the giving of options. Where it broke was the math. People could work spell save DC's so high that they were getting hard to beat. However, the idea that you could build a "contingency" caster or build a "retributive spell shield" caster or build a "persistent spell" caster who places certain wards up and they stay or build a "I cast fast" caster or build a "you can't find me, you can't kill me" caster.... but you can't be them all anymore like 2nd edition was.
I will also note that even though 3rd edition's math was a bit broken for DC's, 5e's math is a bit broken to me in the opposite direction in that a 9th level spell should be harder to resist than a 1st level. They just need to work the math (3e was spell level + ability score.... maybe it should have been something like spell level/2 + ability score... noting some of these issues started to get cleaned up in 3.5 though as they changes some of the prestige class abilities to not affect spell save DC's but rather other effects). Of course, this would mean that there would be the issues to work out where someone has to have the improved versions of X,Y, and Z spells at later levels, so it would somewhat irk sorcerers and other spontaneous casters. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11823 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2017 : 03:19:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
So, while magic without Weave must be worked differently (its harder to access, to say) is undeniable most powerful and (more importantly) somewhat unlimited compared with Weave-based magic.
Magic w/o Weave is impossible for mortals, at least according to Magic of Faerun. The birth of Mystryl made magic accessible to mortals by creating the Weave. If it were to *actually* disappear, all the magic in the world would become volatile, create a massive burst, and become inaccessible to mortals. 4e retconned that, but it was retconned back towards the end of 4e. Even in 4e, the Weave was not gone. It was stranded, harder to access, but still there.
The only limit to Weave magic was imposed by Mystra after Netheril. It isn't an inherent limit.
Um, Mystra is a liar. You'll note her truename is Ariel Manx. That spelled backwards is Leira. She's told the whole world they can't cast magic without her. Yet they can go to Greyhawk and cast magic. They can go to the abyss and cast magic. Essentially what she's done is made it easier to cast more complex spells by letting wizards be lazy and use her "subroutines". In return, she gets her cut in faith energy. Then she's even got some of the stupider deities believing she has that much power as well (aka Cyric), while older, smarter deities secretly snicker at him behind his back. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2017 : 03:33:06
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
So, while magic without Weave must be worked differently (its harder to access, to say) is undeniable most powerful and (more importantly) somewhat unlimited compared with Weave-based magic.
Magic w/o Weave is impossible for mortals, at least according to Magic of Faerun. The birth of Mystryl made magic accessible to mortals by creating the Weave. If it were to *actually* disappear, all the magic in the world would become volatile, create a massive burst, and become inaccessible to mortals. 4e retconned that, but it was retconned back towards the end of 4e. Even in 4e, the Weave was not gone. It was stranded, harder to access, but still there.
The only limit to Weave magic was imposed by Mystra after Netheril. It isn't an inherent limit.
Um, Mystra is a liar. You'll note her truename is Ariel Manx. That spelled backwards is Leira. She's told the whole world they can't cast magic without her. Yet they can go to Greyhawk and cast magic. They can go to the abyss and cast magic. Essentially what she's done is made it easier to cast more complex spells by letting wizards be lazy and use her "subroutines". In return, she gets her cut in faith energy. Then she's even got some of the stupider deities believing she has that much power as well (aka Cyric), while older, smarter deities secretly snicker at him behind his back.
Ariel Manx was her true name only for like 140 years over tens of thousands of years of existence. This thing dates back to Mystryl, and it's only true on Toril. Again, why should magic work on erth in the exactl same way as it does on Toril. Torilian magic is more than mere power, it's alive. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 14 Aug 2017 03:33:34 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11823 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2017 : 03:33:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Magic w/o Weave is impossible for mortals, at least according to Magic of Faerun.
This is something that contradicts with the current multiversal approach of D&D in 5e. And even in earlier editions, since in places like Oerth, Krynn or Athas, a mortal can use magic without the Weave. You can even work magic in Abeir, a place that doesn't have a Weave (as per The Devil You Know novel—and even Ed says that the "Weave" of Abeir isn't technically a Weave, in the sense of how works the Weave of Toril), though its more difficult to access magic there. But that is the key, difficult, not imposible.
The Weave is only the channel Mystryl put to magic in Abeir-Toril to have a monopoly of control of magic in this world, not something necessary for mortals to use magic, as other D&D settings show.
In 5e, "the Weave" has become a generic term to indicate a source of magic, but on Toril the Weave is actually the Weave that we know and is unique to that world. Magic doesn't need to obey to a fixed set of rules everywhere in the multiverse (different worlds may host a different amount of energy with a different kind of "volatility", for example). Casters who travel between worlds may have to get used, or alter their spellcasting for the magic system in those worlds.
The Weave on Toril wasn't created by Mystryl as a conscious act, Mystryl/Mystra *is* the Weave. It was born as soon as she was created. It isn't a tool to establish a monopoly--Ed states multiple times that Mystra actually strives to *not* be a tyrant, and that she shares the Weave with other deities--it is actually the source of magic on Toril. Before her birth, magic belonged to the gods (or other supernatural creatures of that kind).
I know that 4e tried to retcon it, but it was retconned back in place by Ed's novels. I honestly find the Weave to be a beautiful concept. Magic isn't just a power, it's a living, conscious being, one which is also connected to all other living beings, and to many other deities. Idk why some poeple think that it's related to tyranny.
Oh, I find the weave to be beautiful too. My perception of it is windows versus DOS. I can work both. I prefer windows. I still have times though that I have to get down to the point of DOS commands, batch files, and simple CSV format files.
What Mystra has done is effectively create a method that they can let the weave do some of the "hard math" for them. Szass Tam basically describes it exactly like that in the Haunted Lands Trilogy when he notes the difference. He can't make a spell that can do all kinds of weird nuances anymore, but a straight up "take the energy and hurl it" effect works just fine. So, for instance, something like the second edition Simbul's spell trigger that let's you store multiple other spells into it, as long as they are below X level, and later release all of them at once... and only have to know that one spell and you can mix and match however you will... that's what the weave let's you do. Without the weave, if you wanted to make a sequenced release of W,X,Y, and Z you'd likely have to make that spell and then a sequence of A,B,C, and D would be a different spell.
And don't get me wrong.... I loved the Simbul's Spell Trigger/sequencer, Algarth's embattlement, Presper's Double Wizardry, the netherese mantle, the sash of spells, etc... I think I could go on for hours about triggered and contingent magic (to the point that I created at least 3 prestige classes around the concepts), but they introduced us to the concept, and we all then realized how broken it was as it multiplied. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 14 Aug 2017 03:40:29 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2474 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2017 : 03:43:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
The Weave on Toril wasn't created by Mystryl as a conscious act, Mystryl/Mystra *is* the Weave. It was born as soon as she was created. It isn't a tool to establish a monopoly--Ed states multiple times that Mystra actually strives to *not* be a tyrant, and that she shares the Weave with other deities--it is actually the source of magic on Toril. Before her birth, magic belonged to the gods (or other supernatural creatures of that kind).
Mmmm... I'm reading the Netheril boxed set book (I bough it thinking it has the Netherese myths... that it doesn't have) and it says this about Mystryl:
"Most worshipers of the Lady of Mysteries were human, but all natives of Faerûn who sought to become powerful in magic without benefit of divine aid at least appeased the goddess with sacrifices. (Burning items that had temporarily been enchanted with a spell was the easiest way to do this.) Those who didn't seemed to rise to great heights of knowledge, but their grasp of the Art was forever flawed and their ultimate goals forever beyond their reach."
IHMO, that sounds tyrannical...
Sadly, I don't have the books that talk about the original Mystra, but we know Mystra the Second was a tyrant as well, allowing just the magic she considered good (there is a novel about this) until Ao said "ey!" and she had to back down. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 14 Aug 2017 03:56:26 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36802 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2017 : 04:28:02
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| Oh holy mother of Lurue, I frigging hate that that was done in a novel -- because it never had any in-game effect, was only seen briefly in one novel, and she was roundly slapped down for it. And yet, it has been brought up time and time again to suggest some bias on the part of Mystra that simply does not exist. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2474 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2017 : 04:41:06
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Because Mystra is Neutral Good, not true Neutral. This means that she is biased. For good, but biased, nonetheless.
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Again, why should magic work on erth in the exactl same way as it does on Toril. Torilian magic is more than mere power, it's alive.
I'm not saying that the magic of Toril must work like those of Oerth. Just that the fact that Elminster can use magic in Oerth (a place with no Weave) means that magic can be used without Weave. The Weave is just the "local rules of magic", created when magic gained a consciousness. But we know that even in the local universe, one can use magic without the Weave (see, Abeir). |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36802 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2017 : 05:04:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Because Mystra is Neutral Good, not true Neutral. This means that she is biased. For good, but biased, nonetheless.
It doesn't matter when it's not reflected in the execution of her duties. As far as doing her job as a deity is concerned, she has no alignment at all.
That's why I hate seeing that novel brought up: the only time this perceived bias every had any effect was purely in the pages of one novel. It has NEVER been a factor, in game. |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2017 : 09:52:22
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as for myrkul. he might not have had the choice.
AO: you will or else
Myrkul: or else what?
AO: your choice being mortal again and starting over from a weeee babe or I put you out of existence and nobody will ever remember who you even were.
Myrkul: okay, but only death right? |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36802 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2017 : 10:04:39
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quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
as for myrkul. he might not have had the choice.
AO: you will or else
Myrkul: or else what?
AO: your choice being mortal again and starting over from a weeee babe or I put you out of existence and nobody will ever remember who you even were.
Myrkul: okay, but only death right?
Why? Myrkul doesn't want to be a deity and rebelled against Ao at least once previously. Why would Ao put him back in that spot? |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2017 : 10:50:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Because Mystra is Neutral Good, not true Neutral. This means that she is biased. For good, but biased, nonetheless.
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Again, why should magic work on erth in the exactl same way as it does on Toril. Torilian magic is more than mere power, it's alive.
I'm not saying that the magic of Toril must work like those of Oerth. Just that the fact that Elminster can use magic in Oerth (a place with no Weave) means that magic can be used without Weave. The Weave is just the "local rules of magic", created when magic gained a consciousness. But we know that even in the local universe, one can use magic without the Weave (see, Abeir).
What I mean is exactly that. Magic is not tied to universal rules, each world could very well behave in different ways. Maybe there is a "standard" model and every world deviates from it only to a certaind degree, maybe things works in entirely different ways, Idk. On Toril, magic was not accessible to mortals until Mystryl was born, and the Weave is that magic, with all the traits that make it unique. It's just how magic works in that particular world. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2017 : 11:02:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
The Weave on Toril wasn't created by Mystryl as a conscious act, Mystryl/Mystra *is* the Weave. It was born as soon as she was created. It isn't a tool to establish a monopoly--Ed states multiple times that Mystra actually strives to *not* be a tyrant, and that she shares the Weave with other deities--it is actually the source of magic on Toril. Before her birth, magic belonged to the gods (or other supernatural creatures of that kind).
Mmmm... I'm reading the Netheril boxed set book (I bough it thinking it has the Netherese myths... that it doesn't have) and it says this about Mystryl:
"Most worshipers of the Lady of Mysteries were human, but all natives of Faerûn who sought to become powerful in magic without benefit of divine aid at least appeased the goddess with sacrifices. (Burning items that had temporarily been enchanted with a spell was the easiest way to do this.) Those who didn't seemed to rise to great heights of knowledge, but their grasp of the Art was forever flawed and their ultimate goals forever beyond their reach."
IHMO, that sounds tyrannical...
Sadly, I don't have the books that talk about the original Mystra, but we know Mystra the Second was a tyrant as well, allowing just the magic she considered good (there is a novel about this) until Ao said "ey!" and she had to back down.
Yeah, I agree that it was pretty tyrannical, but it was mild, she didn't use her domain over magic to force people to do certain stuff. However, personally, I wouldn't mind showing some gratitude to the being that makes all magic possible, especially when it just involves occasionally casting a spell on an item and then burning it. But yeah: while I also understand that Mystryl might have wanted some recognition for being the one who gifted mortals with magic, the concept of being forced to do that is lame.
Mystra the first was not biased, she was above the good vs evil thing. Midnight-Mystra was NG, as is the current Mystra, but keep in mind that (IIRC, correct me if I'm wrong) what you describe happened when she had just ascended. She was very much her mortal self, like Kelemovr was. In the current days, Mystra is repeatedly stated to be striving to not be a tyrant. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 14 Aug 2017 12:30:44 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2017 : 11:04:29
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
What Mystra has done is effectively create a method that they can let the weave do some of the "hard math" for them. Szass Tam basically describes it exactly like that in the Haunted Lands Trilogy when he notes the difference. He can't make a spell that can do all kinds of weird nuances anymore, but a straight up "take the energy and hurl it" effect works just fine. So, for instance, something like the second edition Simbul's spell trigger that let's you store multiple other spells into it, as long as they are below X level, and later release all of them at once... and only have to know that one spell and you can mix and match however you will... that's what the weave let's you do. Without the weave, if you wanted to make a sequenced release of W,X,Y, and Z you'd likely have to make that spell and then a sequence of A,B,C, and D would be a different spell.
Yes, that's another aspect of the Weave that I enjoy. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11823 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2017 : 12:23:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
So, while magic without Weave must be worked differently (its harder to access, to say) is undeniable most powerful and (more importantly) somewhat unlimited compared with Weave-based magic.
Magic w/o Weave is impossible for mortals, at least according to Magic of Faerun. The birth of Mystryl made magic accessible to mortals by creating the Weave. If it were to *actually* disappear, all the magic in the world would become volatile, create a massive burst, and become inaccessible to mortals. 4e retconned that, but it was retconned back towards the end of 4e. Even in 4e, the Weave was not gone. It was stranded, harder to access, but still there.
The only limit to Weave magic was imposed by Mystra after Netheril. It isn't an inherent limit.
Um, Mystra is a liar. You'll note her truename is Ariel Manx. That spelled backwards is Leira. She's told the whole world they can't cast magic without her. Yet they can go to Greyhawk and cast magic. They can go to the abyss and cast magic. Essentially what she's done is made it easier to cast more complex spells by letting wizards be lazy and use her "subroutines". In return, she gets her cut in faith energy. Then she's even got some of the stupider deities believing she has that much power as well (aka Cyric), while older, smarter deities secretly snicker at him behind his back.
Ariel Manx was her true name only for like 140 years over tens of thousands of years of existence. This thing dates back to Mystryl, and it's only true on Toril. Again, why should magic work on erth in the exactl same way as it does on Toril. Torilian magic is more than mere power, it's alive.
Actually less than that (27 years + her mortal life... that is if she actually died in 1385). I was actually kidding (somewhat), just because I love that whole Ariel/Leira thing, but I'm not (at this time) believing they're related... (although it would make a good story if Midnight were some kind of simulacrum created by Leira... or that Leira is some kind of twin of Mystryl also born of the hurling of forces). I honestly don't think that magic will cease without Mystra. So, I do believe she is a liar. However, I don't give her malicious intent for it. I think she tends the weave to encourage magic use so its more widespread.
However, the question of WHY she does it could be interesting if we peel back the curtain. It is her job, but it is also delivering her faith energy. This might almost feel like drug use, such that when something happens to disrupt that "flow" she crashes like a junkie. The weave starts unraveling and not doing what its supposed to, almost like its lashing out against the world. Now, I know that's some really bad imagery there and we're all taught that drug users are malicious and evil, but I kind of look at it like Mystra is thrashing about just unable to gather her bearings. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11823 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2017 : 12:37:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
What Mystra has done is effectively create a method that they can let the weave do some of the "hard math" for them. Szass Tam basically describes it exactly like that in the Haunted Lands Trilogy when he notes the difference. He can't make a spell that can do all kinds of weird nuances anymore, but a straight up "take the energy and hurl it" effect works just fine. So, for instance, something like the second edition Simbul's spell trigger that let's you store multiple other spells into it, as long as they are below X level, and later release all of them at once... and only have to know that one spell and you can mix and match however you will... that's what the weave let's you do. Without the weave, if you wanted to make a sequenced release of W,X,Y, and Z you'd likely have to make that spell and then a sequence of A,B,C, and D would be a different spell.
Yes, that's another aspect of the Weave that I enjoy.
Yeah, so as we've been discussing, you can go to the outer planes, inner planes, other crystal spheres, phlogiston... and most of your magic still works the same. However, there will be some spells in FR that will just flatly break in these other places (such as say many of the metamagic spells that FR has created), because some of the subroutine calls that Mystra provides to make things easier don't exist in these other places. In addition, the way a spell works in any given plane is "locally significant", in that there may be entities controlling magic (or portions of magic) that can "rewrite" the flow and effects of a given spell (such that say flamestrike is fire damage in one sphere and radiant damage in another, etc..).
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2017 : 12:53:45
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I counted the years since her ascension till her recovery. After her recovery during the Sundering, Mystra's no longer Midnight (or at least, she's no longer just Midnight).
I personally do believe Mystra because, as far as we know, the magic of Toril was born with her. I'm not sure I understand what you mean, but--if I got it right--I don't think that Mystra could ever lack faith energy, because the very act of using the Weave and developing magic could be counted as a form of "faith", so to speak. The Weave isn't exactly something that can just be forgotten or ignored either. The only thing that could disrupt that flow would be trying to harm Mystra and the Weave. In that case, it would be more like a living being lashing out because it wants to live and it doesn't want to be hurt, and in the extreme case--if Mystra was ever truly gone--it would be like removing all the control rods and mechanisms that prevent a nuclear reactor from reaching the meltdown point, where the fissile material would be the divinity of Mystra herself. The Spellplague is a partial example of what would happen, as we know that the Weave wasn't fully gone, only stranded, yet the event was cataclysmic. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2017 : 20:24:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
as for myrkul. he might not have had the choice.
AO: you will or else
Myrkul: or else what?
AO: your choice being mortal again and starting over from a weeee babe or I put you out of existence and nobody will ever remember who you even were.
Myrkul: okay, but only death right?
Why? Myrkul doesn't want to be a deity and rebelled against Ao at least once previously. Why would Ao put him back in that spot?
Considering we also have Cyric AND Kelemvor AND... {drumroll please} The Raven Queen, I think Myrkul coming back is just a tad nuts. PLUS JERGAL.
If we throw-in the ones from Kara-Tur, Malatra, Zakhara, and Maztica, we literally have enough 'Death Gods' for a baseball team.
And yet, after all of that, The Old Empires still don't have their own... go figure. 
We don't need a new god, we need Anubis!  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 15 Aug 2017 06:02:37 |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2017 : 20:47:45
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Actually less than that (27 years + her mortal life... that is if she actually died in 1385). I was actually kidding (somewhat), just because I love that whole Ariel/Leira thing, but I'm not (at this time) believing they're related... (although it would make a good story if Midnight were some kind of simulacrum created by Leira... or that Leira is some kind of twin of Mystryl also born of the hurling of forces). I honestly don't think that magic will cease without Mystra. So, I do believe she is a liar. However, I don't give her malicious intent for it. I think she tends the weave to encourage magic use so its more widespread.
Don't back away from the ARIEL-LEIRA connection, they are absolutely related... Some people may say a name is just a name, but when we know that True Names are the secret to having power over souls & planar entities... Why should we discount the possibility of these kinds of connections? Names are deliberate choices, not random chance...
I had speculated previously that Leira & Mask are the True parents of Cyric... And the SCAG confirmed that Leira is his mother by saying she's his daughter. Similarly, the ARIEL-LEIRA connection makes me think that she is also Leira's daughter... MANX-MASK?
The secrets of the multiverse can be heard through the howling winds of pandemonium that echo throughout the Supreme Throne... If you only know how to listen... The Prince of Lies always tells the Truth even if he is cursed to have no one believe it... Why would the one True deity demean himself by spreading Lies? Does a Lord do the work of his Peasants? |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2474 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2017 : 21:45:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Why? Myrkul doesn't want to be a deity and rebelled against Ao at least once previously. Why would Ao put him back in that spot. Considering we also have Cyric AND Kelemvor AND... {drumroll please} The Raven Queen, I think Myrkull coming back is just atad nuts. PLUS JERGAL.
But the Raven Queen is not an FR thing (unless they say so, in the new book about Xanathar—that is also not an FR thing, as well...).
She should be, though. She is way cooler than both Myrkull and Kelembor.
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Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 14 Aug 2017 21:47:54 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2017 : 21:52:20
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| I actually like Kelemvor as the god of the dead (or judge of the dead). I think the deity in that role needs to be neutral. That said, I admit I don't know much about the Raven Queen, other than what I read in the D&D novels that were released during the Abyssal Plague arch (some of which were part of the series, and others were not). |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11823 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2017 : 23:58:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
as for myrkul. he might not have had the choice.
AO: you will or else
Myrkul: or else what?
AO: your choice being mortal again and starting over from a weeee babe or I put you out of existence and nobody will ever remember who you even were.
Myrkul: okay, but only death right?
Why? Myrkul doesn't want to be a deity and rebelled against Ao at least once previously. Why would Ao put him back in that spot?
Considering we also have Cyric AND Kelemvor AND... {drumroll please} The Raven Queen, I think Myrkull coming back is just atad nuts. PLUS JERGAL.
If we throw-in the ones from Kara-Tur, Malatra, Zakhara, and Maztica, we literally have enough 'Death Gods' for a baseball team.
And yet, after all of that, The Old Empires still don't have their own... go figure.
We don't need a new god, we need Anubis!
They kind of have two actually... Osiris (judge of the dead) and Nephthys (protector of the dead... as in tombs and their contents). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11823 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2017 : 00:07:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Actually less than that (27 years + her mortal life... that is if she actually died in 1385). I was actually kidding (somewhat), just because I love that whole Ariel/Leira thing, but I'm not (at this time) believing they're related... (although it would make a good story if Midnight were some kind of simulacrum created by Leira... or that Leira is some kind of twin of Mystryl also born of the hurling of forces). I honestly don't think that magic will cease without Mystra. So, I do believe she is a liar. However, I don't give her malicious intent for it. I think she tends the weave to encourage magic use so its more widespread.
Don't back away from the ARIEL-LEIRA connection, they are absolutely related... Some people may say a name is just a name, but when we know that True Names are the secret to having power over souls & planar entities... Why should we discount the possibility of these kinds of connections? Names are deliberate choices, not random chance...
I had speculated previously that Leira & Mask are the True parents of Cyric... And the SCAG confirmed that Leira is his mother by saying she's his daughter. Similarly, the ARIEL-LEIRA connection makes me think that she is also Leira's daughter... MANX-MASK?
The secrets of the multiverse can be heard through the howling winds of pandemonium that echo throughout the Supreme Throne... If you only know how to listen... The Prince of Lies always tells the Truth even if he is cursed to have no one believe it... Why would the one True deity demean himself by spreading Lies? Does a Lord do the work of his Peasants?
Actually, I am of the firm belief that "she is his daughter" only in that she allowed herself to be rebirthed by him in the form of the Cyrinishad, and then she drove him insane..... which given your name would imply that YOU ARE LEIRA!!!!!
Of course, I do also like the idea of Leira and Mask working together, and I do believe that they were lovers that also sometimes worked against each other.
Of course, I've also had this strange feeling that Cyric has some ties to Valigan Thirdborn (whom I treat as a Loki like figure). There is absolutely no reason for it, other than a gut feeling though. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2474 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2017 : 00:12:17
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And yet, after all of that, The Old Empires still don't have their own... go figure.
We don't need a new god, we need Anubis!
They kind of have two actually... Osiris (judge of the dead) and Nephthys (protector of the dead... as in tombs and their contents).
Is kinda rare that they copy-pasted the entire egipcian pantheon, sans Anubis... the most cool of those gods. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11823 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2017 : 00:14:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Why? Myrkul doesn't want to be a deity and rebelled against Ao at least once previously. Why would Ao put him back in that spot. Considering we also have Cyric AND Kelemvor AND... {drumroll please} The Raven Queen, I think Myrkull coming back is just atad nuts. PLUS JERGAL.
But the Raven Queen is not an FR thing (unless they say so, in the new book about Xanathar—that is also not an FR thing, as well...).
She should be, though. She is way cooler than both Myrkull and Kelembor.
I personally like the Raven Queen to actually be what Kiaransalee reverted back to when she forgot her name. There was that whole thing where they both had some involvement with their names disappearing. What it means to me is that Kiaransalee maybe absorbed some other deity and took on the name Kiaransalee.... and once she forgot herself she reverted back to another personality. I mean, there's got to be some link... we can't have it that 3 gods of death/undead erased their names... unless there's some power to that in regards death (I'm erased from the book of the dead now!). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2017 : 00:58:35
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Why? Myrkul doesn't want to be a deity and rebelled against Ao at least once previously. Why would Ao put him back in that spot. Considering we also have Cyric AND Kelemvor AND... {drumroll please} The Raven Queen, I think Myrkull coming back is just atad nuts. PLUS JERGAL.
But the Raven Queen is not an FR thing (unless they say so, in the new book about Xanathar—that is also not an FR thing, as well...).
She should be, though. She is way cooler than both Myrkull and Kelembor.
I personally like the Raven Queen to actually be what Kiaransalee reverted back to when she forgot her name. There was that whole thing where they both had some involvement with their names disappearing. What it means to me is that Kiaransalee maybe absorbed some other deity and took on the name Kiaransalee.... and once she forgot herself she reverted back to another personality. I mean, there's got to be some link... we can't have it that 3 gods of death/undead erased their names... unless there's some power to that in regards death (I'm erased from the book of the dead now!).
It was revealed that Kiaransalee's name wasn't fully erased, tho. It was only a partial thing, since her name kept holding power in necromantic rituals. IIRC, this was in "The Reaver". |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2474 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2017 : 00:58:47
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The Raven Queen is unlike Kiaransalee. She didn't forgot her name. She wanted the whole cosmos to forget her name, because she wants to overcome the prohibition imposed upon her by the other gods when she reached godhood (that she is the goddess of death, but not of the dead). That's why she changed her name to "The Raven Queen" (potentially, the name gave to her by the kenku, that in Nentir Vale myths, are her creations).
Her story is detailed in Dungeon 171, and the Kenku's one in Dragon 411 and in the Last Garrison novel. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 15 Aug 2017 01:02:14 |
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SCAG: Tchazzar: wording is he actually back?
