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Originally posted by Markustay

I probably shouldn't tell you this, buuuuuut...

I was going to place a new quasi-settlement (one of those 'Waystop' Inns) on the road north of Beregost, right where it splits off and heads west to Candlekeep. The Friendly Arm is on that road, but way too far north for my purposes. I was thinking there should be something there, since its such an important intersection, and people trying to get into Candlekeep would need a place to stay. I had even consider a little business there that could sell rare books, for those who couldn't get in with the ones they have.

So, before I even placed something on the map, or even thought about a name, I started looking over the Baldur's Gate VG maps again, and I spot something I hadn't noticed before - High Hedge. Its a waystop kind of place, and its pretty-much right where I need it (a bit north, but those maps are so warped its easy enough to fudge it). And Here's the a part you are going to be interested in - a guy name Thalantyr the conjurer owns a 'magic shop' there! he's got a similar setup to a RW enclave going on. Now, his background says he is from Beregost, but I have to wonder at where he's getting all the nifty goodies for his shop? My first thought was that he is trading rare books for them, because people need those to get into CK. However, it dawned on me - what if he is a Red Wizard agent? Its not like they can just setup an enclave right outside of Candlekeep, but what if they just 'backed him'? He could have some magic about him that obscures the truth (and I am sure the Scribes of CK are fully aware of he he works for). So maybe he gets some of his stuff from trades, but he was also getting covert deliveries from Thay...

Homebrew Lore:
Which brings me to the second part. They were using minor demons for deliveries (they may even do this elsewhere - they may not want to setup permanent two-way portals to Thay, and having bound fiends who can teleport would be very thrifty - think of it like an 'infernal Amazon' LOL). Figure real low-level guys, like quasits and stuff. But one of the 'delivery boys' was a Vrock. Then one day bad things happened in Thay, and their was a civil war. most of these fiends that were assigned to the Trade and the enclaves were commandeer for military service, but the Vrocks master was killed early on. He planned to return home, but then the spellplague happened, and something went wrong, and he was unable to shift back to the Abyss (over time, he probably could have again). Not knowing what to do, and not having a human or demon master to order him around, and certainly not wanting to fight in any stupid human war, he went to the only other place he knew - High Hedge. He figured he would go there, overpower Thalantyr, and force him to send him back to the Abyss.

He gets there, and Thalantyr manages to fend him off with what little magic he still has (most of the stuff in his shop still worked fine), and the fiend finally leads with him to be sent home. Thalantyr explains the situation with magic - that all magic is working poorly, and high-level magic has become extemely difficult to cast - nearly impossible. And any sort of translocation magic is out of the question (at his pint the Vrock realizes it had been very lucky it was able to get to High Hedge (fiendish magic is affected, but less severely) without being destroyed. So the two work out a deal - the Vrock can't go home (yet), and doesn't really know what to do with itself. Thalantyr tells it he'll take care of it - give it a home, feed it, whatever, and they could be 'partners'. Since the Vrock could still teleport around on the same world - something most other Torillian mages cudn't ATM - the Vrock could use its nature ability and the chaos of the Spellplague to 'raid' other wizards, and their libraries. Since most wizards were without their defenses the first few years of the Spellplague, the Vrock didn't have much to fear. So the Vrock does just that, 'porting around stealing books and other stuff, and Thalantyr gives it whatever it requires (including a helpless victim every once in awhile).

Over the course of a century, the two have become a weird sort of friends. The Vrock realizes magic has 'healed' enough a long time ago and he could have gone home, but he's content. In fact, he barely even eats people anymore. He's been away from the Abyss so long he realizes to go back would just get hims stuck as someone else's servant again, or dying in the Blood War, or worse. So he disguises himself as Thalantyr's apprentice, and helps him around the shop. He still steals books and the occasional magic item, but he has to be a lot more careful now that magic is working properly again. He's found the best way to go about this is to raid buried ruins, which he can get in and out of easily, and holds minimal risk. Dragons have proved to be a great source of information - they don't seem to care for killing fiends (overly much), and they have long memories. The dragons tell Vrocky (thats what Thalantyr started calling him) about human and other 'lost cities from ages ago', and he promises to bring them back some of the monetary treasure. Since the main thing Thalantyr has an interest in is books (of the non-spell variety), for his trade with Candlekeep aspirants, and dragons have very little love for that type of 'treasure' (except for magic books, of course), the dragons are all happy to help as well (no risk to them, and they aren't dealing with humans, humanoids, or anything else that's likely to cause them problems later - they actually trust fiends) - they get more treasure just by relating some old tales to a Vrock every now and then.

But if Thay should come back in some guise... Thalantyr's 'private' operation may come to en an end. He's even noticed a red Wizard or two poking around otuside his shop a couple of times in the past year...

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Toward the end of the previous age,
tribes of humans were pushed out of
the Great Kingdoms of the southeast,
which were covered in desert. Legends
speak of a great war in which powerful
humans fought against the gods to
wrest away their power. The humans
won and became god-kings, but the war
destroyed their kingdoms. These godkings,
Re and Enlil, led the shattered
remnants of their peoples into Mulhorand
and Unther. The two god-kings
and their spouses became the leaders of
the royal houses of these two nations.

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Originally posted by sleyvas

I love the idea of delivery by fiend. However, I would not choose demons for that. Devils are less likely to ditch things or steal.

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Originally posted by Markustay

So now I am picturing a bunch of different Outsiders - mostly fiends but there should be all types - 'Bamfing' all over the Realms, with these great big sacks (full of the goods they need to deliver). Every so often they grab themselves a 'snack'... and hence the folklore of the Krampus was born.
Ordinarily, the Thayans would not allow such things to go on (stealing/eating children is bad for business), but the Winter Solstice is a special time of year in the Unapproachable East, when its customary to give rewards to one's faithful followers, so during that time of year they let the fiends have some fun and grab kids, as a special treat.

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Originally posted by Markustay

Gond = Goibhnie (Celtic Pantheon)

It could have been as simple, Sleyvas, as a high priest of Assur foundinga temple on that spot, and then a settlement grew up around the temple, and it was named after the god.

Although I lOVE equating ascended deities to dragons, because thats how it worked in Athas - somehow 'dragonyness' is the 'ladder' one can climb to achieve godhood, so all this harkens back to my theories that ALL of the primal beings were 'dragons' (or rather, Drækons, which is just the supernal word for 'creature of unestimable power').

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Originally posted by sleyvas

Enlil (aka Anu as an alias) - looking in the old Deities & Demigods, this god has a shadow that looks like a dragon, and he's known to be able to summon ANY dragon type to serve him. This makes me lean towards him having some kind of ties to dragons, and possibly an "ascended dragon".
................

There's also another being known as Druaga in the Babylonian pantheon who is specifically called a "ruler of the devil world", and who is the enemy of the gods (notice that Tiamat is in Hell as well). So, we have this enmity between many of the gods and the beings of Hell. I wouldn't be surprised if Gargauth wasn't also an enemy of the Untheric Pantheon, and his slaying of Astaroth (a demon who infiltrated Hell as Diabolus according to Wells of Darkness) not tied to some enmity between the Untheric Pantheon. In fact, given that Druaga "instills his spirit" into things as a back door to protect himself if he dies... I wouldn't be surprised if he and Gargauth (ruler of the tenth layer?) aren't closely associated if not the same being. However, its also kind of odd, because these Untheric gods tend to be less about chaos and a lot about loyalty.

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An-Ur is the oldest of Tiamat's children. Legends say that it sprang into being from Tiamat's first breath. Despite existing for hundreds of centuries, An-Ur has steadfastly ignored the ongoing struggle between the courts of Tiamat and Bahamut.

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Originally posted by dazzlerdal



The real world histories are totally disconnected for me. These people came from elsewhere at some unknown point in time from elsewhere, after that the only thing that matters is what happens on Toril. Their history begins in the year before imaskars fall.

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The Raurindi/Durpari Conflict

The Durpari saw the re-establishment of trade across the desert as a way to return to their her-itage. Traders to the core, they had plied their wares in the At his river valley before the curse had made it barren. They saw caravan trade between the remaining oases as the manner in which they could return. They were driven by two motives beyond those of trade alone: as members of the one god Anu, they were sworn to the destruction of the idols of the older gods of the Raurindi, and they were secretly ashamed that they had deserted the land to the Raurindi. Thus they came back to the desert with the glint of gold in their eyes, and a hatred of the Raurindi and all they stood for in their hearts. While the Raurindi had protected the temples of the old gods, the Durpari's were bent on their destruction. As the Durpari swept into Bralizzar, the Dustwall Mountains, and the Desert of Desolation, they pushed the Rarindi before them...or destroyed them.

The Durpari

The Durpari are a civilized people who are traders to the core. Because of this, they have developed great cunning in business, and their commitment to the truth is less than total. They prefer to talk, rather than fight, though they have some of the most fearsome troops in the southern lands, their dreaded Lancers and Airlancers. It was the Durpari who established trade through the deserts of the south, and it was the Durpari who re-established it when trade became nearly impossible following the curse of Amun-Re. The Durpari are the only group of people who venture through the Desert of Desolation with regularity. Although they often go on trading missions, they prefer to remain at home, usually at an oasis fortress or other trade center. The Durpari worship one god. whom they call Anu. Their religion deems as heretical the worship of many gods, and they are duty-bound to destroy idols and temples dedicated to the "old" religions. The Durpari Airlancers fly on pegasi they breed for the purpose. They can communicate with their beasts in very complex ways.

The Raurindi And The Dervishes

As a people, the Raurindi became nearly extinct when their lands turned to desert millennia ago. Those who were left became desert nomads, a dark people, rough from the desert winds and sands. Hot-tempered and emotion-al, they do not generally care for outsiders. They are somber, pessimistic, and almost always bad-mannered, but they are scrupulously honest and completely fearless. To their friends, they are generous and forgiving, except of a personal insult. Many Raurindi have since been assimilated into the Durpari, particularly in areas within and bordering the great deserts. Most of these have converted to the "True Faith" of the Durpari, who worship the one god Anu. Neverthe-less, some of the Raurindi cling secretly to the old ways. Called Dervishes, they are aliens, outcasts, and even outlaws wherever they go. In fact, because they feel that their god has turned away from them in relegating them to the desert, not only do they worship the old religions, but they now fanatically protect the religious freedoms and holy places of all peo-ples, whatever their practices or beliefs. They hate robbers of graves and tombs, and protect such places from "infidels," tending to make encampments nearby. If they find a holy item or place has been looted or damaged, they will
fighting to the death. This has spawned a desert proverb: "Woe be unto him who puts blood in the eye of the Dervish."

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Suleo, Mountainfist. Greater Power. The king of mountain, storm, avalanche, and earthquake (he has a
large portfolio) was seen as an aloof uncaring god. Suleo is said to have been so offended by the evil of
humanity that he built the Pillarmount so he could rise above their concerns. Suleo’s shrines are built
deep in the earth, and are said to be filled with riches to placate his wrath. His symbol is a
thundercrowned mountainpeak. Suleo was Lawful Neutral. Suleo has long been forgotten.

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Originally posted by Baltas

Haha, I'm happy you liked enough my idea to incorporate it, and I like how it was done

And I agree Unther might had influence in the Raurin region, and I think part of the proto-Untheric population never gone to Unther, but moved south, to Zakhara, as I mentioned years ago.

The language of Zakhara, Midani, is stated to derive from Untheric, and according to Thomas M. Costa “Speaking in Tongues” article, the Midani languages branched off from the other Untheric languages by mixing with the Jannti languages of genies.

An aspect of Ereshkigal, might have moved to Zakhara, or at least Sahu, seeing the Isle of Necromancers, Sahu, has the ruins of a city named "Ereshkigal". As well having a city named "Uruk".

(Although some have suggested the Necromancers, as well as Nog and Kadar, might have been connected to Imaskar, so possibly Ereshkigal was on Toril before other Mesotamian, which might had been why she was cursed, and stuck as a Lamia noble in the first place, but that's rather incompatible with your lore, so it's just a bit of my musing XD)

But continuing from that - I just think Anu, is the fairly possible to have come to Toril way before other Mesopotamian gods - as the Desert of Desolation firmly painted the faith in Anu, as the native religion of Durpari, they forced upon the Raurindi after arriving in the Raurin Desert.

From Desert of Desolation:

quote:

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The Raurindi/Durpari Conflict

The Durpari saw the re-establishment of trade across the desert as a way to return to their her-itage. Traders to the core, they had plied their wares in the At his river valley before the curse had made it barren. They saw caravan trade between the remaining oases as the manner in which they could return. They were driven by two motives beyond those of trade alone: as members of the one god Anu, they were sworn to the destruction of the idols of the older gods of the Raurindi, and they were secretly ashamed that they had deserted the land to the Raurindi. Thus they came back to the desert with the glint of gold in their eyes, and a hatred of the Raurindi and all they stood for in their hearts. While the Raurindi had protected the temples of the old gods, the Durpari's were bent on their destruction. As the Durpari swept into Bralizzar, the Dustwall Mountains, and the Desert of Desolation, they pushed the Rarindi before them...or destroyed them.

The Durpari

The Durpari are a civilized people who are traders to the core. Because of this, they have developed great cunning in business, and their commitment to the truth is less than total. They prefer to talk, rather than fight, though they have some of the most fearsome troops in the southern lands, their dreaded Lancers and Airlancers. It was the Durpari who established trade through the deserts of the south, and it was the Durpari who re-established it when trade became nearly impossible following the curse of Amun-Re. The Durpari are the only group of people who venture through the Desert of Desolation with regularity. Although they often go on trading missions, they prefer to remain at home, usually at an oasis fortress or other trade center. The Durpari worship one god. whom they call Anu. Their religion deems as heretical the worship of many gods, and they are duty-bound to destroy idols and temples dedicated to the "old" religions. The Durpari Airlancers fly on pegasi they breed for the purpose. They can communicate with their beasts in very complex ways.

The Raurindi And The Dervishes

As a people, the Raurindi became nearly extinct when their lands turned to desert millennia ago. Those who were left became desert nomads, a dark people, rough from the desert winds and sands. Hot-tempered and emotion-al, they do not generally care for outsiders. They are somber, pessimistic, and almost always bad-mannered, but they are scrupulously honest and completely fearless. To their friends, they are generous and forgiving, except of a personal insult. Many Raurindi have since been assimilated into the Durpari, particularly in areas within and bordering the great deserts. Most of these have converted to the "True Faith" of the Durpari, who worship the one god Anu. Neverthe-less, some of the Raurindi cling secretly to the old ways. Called Dervishes, they are aliens, outcasts, and even outlaws wherever they go. In fact, because they feel that their god has turned away from them in relegating them to the desert, not only do they worship the old religions, but they now fanatically protect the religious freedoms and holy places of all peo-ples, whatever their practices or beliefs. They hate robbers of graves and tombs, and protect such places from "infidels," tending to make encampments nearby. If they find a holy item or place has been looted or damaged, they will
fighting to the death. This has spawned a desert proverb: "Woe be unto him who puts blood in the eye of the Dervish."

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So to recoile the latter lore with Adama, I moved the Raurindi/Durpari religous and cultural conflict to extremelly dostant past, before Imaskar formed or very early on it's history, when the Durpari fairly recently colonized the Raurin region.

(I basically copied it from other works doing it, like Warhammer 40,000, moved a lot of the early edition elements, to the etting distant past ie the 31th to early 32 millennium.)

But again, I also think Anu, or at least the aspect that came before –2489 DR, was dead by this point, or could be as good as dead, starving from the lack of worship, and possibly bound to the Prime Material plane.

Something for Sleyvas though, as I think I found more possible fiends. I think A'tar might had been a female guise of Astaroth.

A'tar is obviously named after the deity Attar, who was the male version of the Semitic goddess Astarte.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attar_(god)

Curiously though, the name Astaroth, is just the Hebrew version of the name Astarte, and the entity became male (possibly because of Attar?), through confusion, but because of it, Astaroth is often thought to be a demon that switches sexes.

So I think if Astaroth in his masculine form, is known as Astaroth (which in reall life was feminine), he could be as well known when in a female aspect, as A'tar.

A'tar has elemets of Astarte, being a lustful goddess, that cheats on her husband Kozah (who in this role, seems to play the Role of Ba'al Haddad, and whose wife was Astarte).

In generall, I think both Amaunator (or rather, then "Amun") and Inanna, subsumed aspects of Astaroth as A'tar, which ended up corrupting them, possibly as some part of Astaroth's, or Gargauth's plan. (depending when Gargauth killed Astaroth.)

Amaunator had some lawful evil tendencies, as his priest could be only Lawful Neutral and Lawful Evil in 2e.

So my take with him, is that Amun subsumed some elements of A'tar, and became known among Gur as Amun-A'tar, which overtime, evolved into Amaunator.

(Amaunator was even kinda identified with Amon the vestige in the 3.5 Tome of Magic, as it was told if using Amon in the Forgotten Realms, he should be substituted with Amaunator. And Amon, even in the neutral setting, hates one curious vestige - Karsus).

Possibly later, Inanna took the alias of A'tar, but it ended up corrupting her, partially eing what caused her split into herself, and Ishtar (like of Tyche into Tymora and Beshaba), which corrupted Inanna so visibly, she's one of the few deities taking residence in Baator.

(Astaroth was a Demon Lord, but one masquerading as a devil, and I think it could be again Gargauth behind all of this).

But that's just my whole take on all of this

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