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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2020 : 10:05:49
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Gary, have you looked at George's Tyrants in Scarlet: The Founding History of the Zulkirs of Thay? (It's on DM's Guild and is really good.)
It talks about the role of Velsharoon in the early history of Thay.
--Eric
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-- http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
Edited by - ericlboyd on 17 Apr 2020 10:06:15 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2020 : 15:17:41
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Well i allowed myself to get temporarily distracted, searching for all Velsharoon quotes (there arent many).
The two most noteworthy quotes are in relation to the Skull Lords in the Monster Manual V. The 12 skull lords are trying to collect several items to bring back the being known as Vrakmar, these include a skull of the necromancer (skull staff perhaps).
The other one is more interesting, The Dual Ring of Velsharoon's Bindings, made for the Empress Shoon V because of her fear of undead. The thing is, Empress Shoon V was born 250 DR and died 300 DR. This makes Velsharoon much older than the 500 years i presumed him to be (being around at the time of Thay). He must have been of no small ability to craft a magical item for the Empress of Shoon and must have been famous enough to have come to her attentions. So at least 10th level even way back in 300 DR, he could have been several hundred years old even then.
That makes his origins a lot more complex than previously thought. He could be Shoonish, Netherese, Halruan, even Imaskari (although Imaskari is a stretch and would likely involve stasis like Halaster - which has already been done so i'm not happy using that).
So Velsharoon is really, really old. He lived in Shoon around 300 DR, lived in Halruaa for some time before being driven off in 827 DR by Omm Halandar, then moved to Thay before being driven off after 941 DR. Then he ends up in Chessenta for a time and ultimately heads into the Raurin Desert around 1360 DR looking for godhood at last. Presumably he went to Raurin because his lich state was degrading and he didnt want to end up a pile of dust. How long does it take for liches to become demi-liches, a thousand years?
It seems that Velsharoon became a lich and then a god within a very short period of time, all while searching Raurin (at least according to Lords of Darkness 3e). |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2020 : 02:16:19
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quote: Originally posted by sleyvas Several weeks later, using the Phylactery of Mellifleur and the Skull Staff of the Necromancer, Velsharoon performs a ritual to transfer the “spirit” of the god Mellifleur from the Phylactery of Mellifleur and into the vestige phylactery that is part of the Skull Staff of the Necromancer. The next day, Mellifleur's consciousness was sent to “the place where vestiges go”. Mellifleur then made a pact with the vestige of Karsus and transferred it into the vestige phylactery that is part of the Skull Staff of the Necromancer, and then establishes telepathic rapport with Karsus via the staff. Using the now cleansed Phylactery of Mellifleur as a focal point, in a modified Ritual of Endless Night, Velsharoon ascends to godhood with the sponsorship of the deity Talos. The red wizards of Soorenar are some of the first converts, and many former priests of Myrkul in Thay flock to the city in order to turn the land surrounding the Tower Terrible into a temple complex.
This part doesn't make sense to me. Maybe I'm not understanding. Up til this point Velsharoon is the boss and Melifleur is putty in his bony hands.
But then suddenly Mellifleur is making deals with Karsus? Was this Velsharoon's plan? Was he indifferent? Or did this set him back in some way?
--Eric |
-- http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2020 : 12:35:25
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I'm not sure the passage in Powers and Pantheons (p.76) supports the contention that the potion ritual failed - only that the path to demigod-hood required you to transform into a lich first ...
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2020 : 12:52:57
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And on that, noting that the potion ritual comes from Raurin way, might it have been an Imaskari creation originally intended by those wizards to be used as a "god-buster", to allow someone to siphon away deific power and weaken or even outright destroy a god? Feverishly created in the dying days of their empire as they encountered the deities of their Mulan slaves? Of course, it didn't actually work as intended, instead turning its imbiber into a lich and seemingly doing nothing more, but what it also did was to allow that lich to actually accept a spark of divinity freely given, not take it. If it could be received from a deity you got your "shortcut" to godhood as it were.
That means that Myrkul's ascension make a lot more sense. He clearly had the "Velsharoon potion" in his keeping and knew its secrets. When Jergal agreed to surrender up some of his divinity to him, he used the potion to become a god, with lichdom as a necessary first step. It would appear that Bane and Bhaal used different mechanisms to take and harness their divinity ... but I'm not going to go there here. Talos found out about the Imaskari potion but didn't create it. He used it (and I suspect on several individuals) to give up a spark of his own godhood and allow them to become a full-fledged demigod in their own right, on the proviso that they serve him and use their deific power for him. I see it a bit like a blood transfusion where you give up some of yours to top up another individual and then make frequent withdrawls from that individual in return ...
Anyway, just spitballing. Cheers.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 20 Apr 2020 12:54:09 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2020 : 10:01:19
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So I'm up to the imaskari planar barrier.
Never been a fan of it myself. When I look at the idea more in depth I think it's even more of a ridiculous idea.
So the canon story is the imaskari travel to another world via gateways and steal a whole bunch of people then upon their return home they take apart the gates and set up a world sized magical barrier to stop the gods of their victims from rescuing the people.
Now imagine it, you travel through a permanent portal and abduct a few thousand people and your first thought upon returning home is that their gods might want vengeance, so you create a macguffin to cover the entire planet and stop that unlikely event from happening.
For starters their barrier did not work. The "gods" still turned up and rescued their people. But more importantly I don't believe it ever worked. The dark three were able to ascend to godhood along with a hundred other godlings (valour, heron Winston, torm, etc. So travel by gods from toril to the outer planes was never blocked. Then we have lathanders avatar slaying sammaster, we have tempos and garagos duking it out in the western heartlands, we have tyrs arrival in jhaamdath. So the barrier didn't prevent gods arriving on toril or sending their avatars.
So given that history proves the barrier does not do what the sources claim, what was it's true purpose.
I cant quite get my head around the thinking of, powerful mages magically travel to a planet, steal thousands of people, and then fret about the gods wanting revenge. I would be more worried about other powerful mages doing the same to me. Mages teleporting right into the heart of imaskar and wreaking havoc.
So what if the imaskari planar barrier was actually built to prevent others from behaving like the imaskari. A massive dimensional anchor that locked out travel through the ethereal and astral planes and stopped teleport and other magical working. A series of magic projectors hidden in raurin, semphar, mulhorand, unther, the hordelands, and karatur create this dimensional anchor effect.
Now that would also stop anyone calling avatars or summoning creatures unless they were keyed to the imaskari planar barrier (after all the imaskari would still want to travel magically across their empire and created keyed portals to work through the barrier.
It doesnt cover the entire planet, because the planar barrier clearly doesnt cover the entire planet. It does block avatars being summoned so fulfils some of the original remit of the canon barrier.
Also the projectors could begin to malfunction over time or turned off (like Ra tried to do before the orcgate wars). |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2020 : 16:48:04
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So i'm looking at the following quote
quote: In –8350 DR, a splinter tribe of the ancient Durpari traveled northeast to settle in the fertile basin of the Raurin Plateau. During the Nemrut period (–8350 to –7975), named for the civilization’s first warlord, the Imaskari lived in tribal communities ruled by chiefs and the warrior aristocracy. The spread of agriculture during this time led to a rising population and the founding of many farming villages on the plateau. The founding of the Imperial City of Inupras ushered in the Early Dynastic period (–7975 to –6422), when Umyatin assumed the title of lord artificer and emperor. This period was marked primarily by the Imaskari elite’s mastery of transdimensional magic. The artificers used this knowledge to create a sprawling network of portals, which allowed them to cross vast distances in the blink of an eye. These permanent, two-way portals were constructed as circles of massive bronze spires, each etched with an intricate runic design said to be batrachi in origin. These Bukhara Spires allowed whole legions to pass swiftly from one domain to the next, precipitating the rapid expansion of the Imaskar Empire across eastern Faerűn. By the end of the Early Dynastic period, the empire’s borders reached from the Great Ice Sea to the Golden Water, and from the Alamber Sea to the Katakoro Plateau in Kara-Tur. First to fall to the burgeoning empire were the kobold tribes of Zexthandrim, followed by the korobokuru dwarves of Shan Nala. Subsequent campaigns brought about the subjugation of the Taangan steppe peoples and the annexation of Khati, Durpar, and Ulgarth. Imaskar’s first military defeat came in –6788 DR, when its western outpost in Aerilpar was besieged by forest landwyrms. A Raudor peasant rebellion followed in –6779, but the uprising was quickly put down.
In particular i'm looking at the bit about their mastery of transdimensional magic and the use of two way portals.
Now the Imaskari had no elves to teach them the rudimentaries of ritual magic like they did the Imaskari (according to canon anyway), and the weave did not exist for them or they had no knowledge of it and therefore were unlikely to be able to access it by accident (at least until they discovered the Golden Skins of the World around the time of the plague and the time of Shartra).
So how did the Imaskari become so mighty in magic so early on, and masters of transdimensional travel????
My proposal is that they were not and did not. Whatever magic they had was a very primitive form of ritual magic, mixed with whatever magic they could bargain from more powerful beings. There is no evidence of magical bloodlines within the Imaskari so that rules out sorcerors. So while Netheril was weave magic, and Jhaamdath was psionics (or sorcerors for me), Imaskari was pact magic.
The Imaskari plains must have been littered with these batrachi ruins and Bukhara Spires, so the Imaskari repaired them as best they could and used them to move their armies across great distances.
Over time this evolved into a knowledge of other planes but initially it was just on Toril, and just to places the batrachi had already established portals to (although to my mind these are more like gates than portals. Eventually the Imaskari start contacting and summoning outer planar beings (eventually leading to the destruction of Inupras)
The discovery of the weave changes Imaskari society completely, but early Imaskar is very different to later Imaskar. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2020 : 22:24:43
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So I went off on a bit of a mental tangent regarding the nether scrolls and weave anchors and the imaskari and then back to the sarrukh and the baetith.
So George came up with the idea that the baetith were actually spellweaver who transformed into sarrukh and gave them easy magic to overload the sarrukh and cause them to kill themselves. Great idea, loads of potential, but the tale starts with jergal (as a spellweaver/sarrukh member of the baetith) in isstosseffifil, when in fact that empire was the last of 3 sarrukh empires.
What if the story of the baetith actually began earlier. The spellweaver create pyramid like colonies and nodes and there are ancient pyramid structures in chult and in mulhorand (i found a quote in old empires that said the land of the dead contained pyramids older than the mulhorandi so they may have been spellweaver).
So initial thoughts are that the spellweaver created at least 3 different versions of the weave. The first was for okoth (using the athora that misshaka merged with). The second was the 10 emeralds of mershaulk. The third was the golden skins of the world serpent.
Now the golden skins of the world serpent went on to become the basis for the Weave today (being finished by the batrachi and aearee who were also manipulated by jergal into using them). The athora was also linked to this weave.
But what about the proto weave used by mhairshaulk.
What if the baetith was not a unified group at all. What if they were led by powerful spellweaver individuals that came to disagree. What if misshaka was one such individual (anyone notice the similarity with that name and another involving the weave). What if Jergal was another. What about a third individual perhaps involved in mhairshaulk. Perhaps the origins of the fictional legend of a war between divine patrons of weave and shadow weave is actually rooted in different factions of the baetith fighting as to which proto weave would become dominant.
Just a random thought. Has absolutely no bearing on the old empires at this time. |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2020 : 00:08:36
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With Zargon, I think him felling a (mortal) champion of gods empowered by a pantheon, and then (maybe) several Avatars, would have further contributed to the Imaskari views on divinity.
(Or Asmodeus could give Imaskari means to defeat his old enemy)
If it was indeed Asmodeus who would have defeated Zargon (or majorly helped doing that), the Imaskari could also make pacts with Asmodeus, if that could decline overtime, as Imaskari would see Asmodeus would want to control them.
As I mentioned in our discussion, Ed had Elder Mulhorand's (on which Imaskar is in part based, if moved to Raurin) fall and split into modern Mulhorand and Unther be in a large part caused by Shar.: https://www.sageadvice.eu/2019/07/04/the-forgotten-realms-god-kings-of-mulhorand-and-unther/
It actually works even a bit with Alternate Forgotten Realms, as the "God-Kings" were mortals - Vaznurhor (counterpart to Enlil seemingly) and Narlmur (counterpart to Ra seemingly).
So I though Shar could help the proto-Mulan slaves and/or future God Kings to win against Imaskar, as it would make Shar seem more than just a purely evil villain, while still fit her MO (ie caused a collapse of a great ancient Empire, caused Chaos), with her also helping to grow the differences between Untheri and Mulhorandi.
Although I'm not sure how you would have Shar's influence, but as we discussed she is a unique case among "gods", along with Mystra. |
Edited by - Baltas on 07 Jul 2020 01:22:02 |
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deserk
Learned Scribe
Norway
238 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2020 : 23:39:41
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Been following some of the work here. Really nice stuff.
I wonder if maybe some of my own homebrew FR campaign ideas around Mulhorand and Unther in a post-1372 DR alternative timeline (where there's no Spellplague nor Sundering) might maybe help give some inspiration. Obviously I have taken a bit different approach with both nations. Personally I find that it's important to find some way to distinguish both the countries within the Realms, and as well distinguish them a little them from their RW counterparts so they have their own unique Realmsian identity. To that extent I've tried to highlight Unther as a cruel land of blood sports and hero gladiators, in addition to what else has been said of it in the sourcebooks. With Mulhorand, I've tried to steer it in a direction that is a bit more in line Ed's original vision (in that it is ruled by a theocracy of Set worshippers) but also respects material of the old lore.
The land known as Unther has split into two halves, with the followers of Tiamat ruling the North, now known as Tymanther and the old guard Gilgeamites ruling the South. The Tiamatans were aided by war-loving firenewts of the Smoking Mountains as well large bands of outerplanar Dragonkin migrants, mercenaries and zealous crusaders of the Dragon Queen (taking on the role of Dragonborn in 4e) originally from the world of Abeir and whom now settle portions of the countryside of Northern Unther. The Tiamatan victories were also made possible by the aid of the Northern Wizards whom reluctantly submitted to the will of the Tiamatans. After making a stubborn peace with the Tiamatans; the Gilgeamites diverted their attention to grand building projects, pouring vast sums of funds into building extravagant arenas and hippodromes for the entertainment of the reborned God-King and his people. These endevours were made possible by launching large slave-raiding armies throughout the wilds of the Shaar and fleets preying on the vulnerable coasts of the Sea of Fallen Stars, ever seeking to refill the quickly depleting coffers through sold captives as well filling the fighting pits with able-bodied warriors and the expendable labour force needed to undertake these colossal and high-risk construction efforts.
Though most common folk in South Unther are left heavily subjugated, economically and socially crippled by both these endeavours and the ancient traditions that have long disproportionately favoured the aristocracy; slaves and commoners that prove themselves in the arena may make an exceptional leap in the social ladder of Unther and may potentially rise to an almost god-like form of celebrity and reverence, as gladiators are seen as the most holy and ideal representation of the new kindled spirit of the warrior god Gilgeam, whom has incorporated athletics into his portfolio and become a new and often favoured patron deity of gladiators and athletes throughout the Realms. This fact has left some sages outside of Unther to speculate that this current and unusual incarnation of Gilgeam may be an aspect of Lathander, given that the Morninglord has long held athletics as part of his portfolio. This religious conspiracy is detested both by Lathanderites, who decry the cruel practises of blood sports as well as the merciless slave network in Unther, and is frowned heavily upon by Untherite traditionalists who hold their god to be ancient and divine in his own right.
The Untherites' s hunger for blood sports has grown to such an extent that there are rumouredly thousands of participants taking part in the games, some coming willingly from war-torn lands like Chessenta and the Vilhon Reach, but only a very small few fortunates emerge as champions of the arena. So reverred are Unther's champions that the noble houses, whom normally have great disdain for commoners and slaves, go to great lengths to gain the loyalty and services of the few triumphant gladiators, enticing them with lucrative bribes, often including marriage to their respective house, as well as positions within the government and army. The presence of celebrated champions among the high families often help to greatly elevate the status and renown of these houses.
Mulhorand, left militarily exhausted by it's war with Unther, pulled out their remaining forces as rumours abounded that clerics of Horus-Re had lost their divine connection to their patron and consequently access to their spellcraft. Some rumours circulated suggest that the Pharoah of the Gods has been poisoned by Set. This has coincided with a Setian conspiracy that has successfully overthrown the government of Mulhorand, which is ruled now by figure calling himself the Serpent Pharoah, whom has made Set supreme head of the Mulhorandi pantheon. Other faiths are tolerated provided the clergy do not challenge the supremacy of the Father of Jackals. Their rebellion was made successful by the many double agents in key positions of the previous government, as well as bands of Asabi and Gnoll mercenaries fighting on their behalf (and rumouredly financed by Thay) and who now keep the "peace" in streets of many cities of Mulhorand. The Setians also conspired heavily with ancient and powerful Yuan-ti clans that have long schemed and lingered in the shadows of the Eternal Empire, and whom now carry considerable weight and influence in the new government. The clergy and the faithful of Horus-Re and Anhur largely retreated en masse and in exile to the Raurin desert, where Mulhorandi resistance fighters train vigorously and make solemn oaths and plans to bring back the rule of a righteous Pharoah in Mulhorand. However heated debates and conflicts break out occasionally between the two faiths of Anhur and Horus-Re, as the Anhurites believe that Anhur should take the role of head of the Mulhorandi pantheon over the seemingly silent and weaker Horus-Re. Theological and philosophical differences are also an obstacle in to endangering their cooperation. One prominent issue is that many followers of Anhur advocate for an outright abolishment of slavery while many of the Horus-Re clergy still cling vehemently in the defense of Mulhorand's ancient institutions. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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deserk
Learned Scribe
Norway
238 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2020 : 12:02:54
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quote: Originally posted by Gary Dallison At the moment I've only got one arena detailed in unther but you are right, blood sports should be a major focus in untheric society. I also have one heresy in unther that of bane and milgram being the same, I see no reason not to expand that to include other faerunian deities whose churches are trying to make inroads into untheric society. I think I would opt for tchazzars worship rather than lathander as it has a much closer proximity and an ancient enmity between the two.
Yeah I can certainly see that as a good idea too. The encroachment of Bane and potentially the Zhentarim into Unther, or more likely Threskel, could be interesting.
quote: Originally posted by Gary Dallison as for the setites, I've been trying to figure out the ultimate goal of these rebellious infiltrators. While the cult of Set invariably wants the pharaohs overthrown, I think the okothian sarrukh infiltrating their ranks would much rather bring one of the pharaohs children over to their side and use him as a puppet pharaoh. I originally discounted yuan ti because there is no mention of them in okoth and also because they were created in mhairshaulk in chult. I was going down the route of using were serpents but lately I have been toying with the idea of a new breed of histaachi like creatures.
Well that certainly works too, and incorporates some of the lore bits of 3e and 4e on Okoth. It hadn't occurred to me to use the sarrukh of Okoth. I have always been wary of using the sarrukh, as they are a mostly extinct race and extremely powerful. Though I suppose there are only a tiny number of them in Okoth (86 invidiuals given stats from Serpent Kingdoms). But even so, each individual is kind of like a little quasi-deity in terms of power.
Also FRCS 4E does mention that there are Yuan-ti living in Okoth, serving the sarrukh. They could make good infiltrators for the sarrukh to send into Mulhorand. They could perhaps be outcasts from the Yuan-ti clans that dwell in the Lhesper ruins in Western Shaar. Though I do think that a new servitor race for Okothian sarrukh could also be a good idea. Perhaps the Okothians could have conducted rituals to alter these werecrocodiles & wereserpents into a unique race. Asabis would also make good low-level riff-raff servitors for them as well, and they are desert-dwelling reptilian race created by the sarrukh of Isstosseffifil in Anauroch. Asabi are mentioned to exist in the Shining South (3rd edition book), particularly the Shining Lands, which is on the boundaries of the Old Empires. They could be used by the sarrukh to keep out meddlesome adventurers from Azulduth. |
Edited by - deserk on 21 Jul 2020 12:10:42 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2020 : 12:15:17
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Prior to 4e I believe yuan ti were only mentioned in mhairshaulk in the serpent kingdoms sourcebook and their localisation to areas around chult and portals connected to chult (leading to their spread into the vilhon) is the primary source I'm using for sarrukh stuff.
4e tended to make too many generalisations for my liking, it may have eased the design process for them but it didn't work with the lore.
Saying that, I see no reason why the okoth couldn't have created their own version. The sarrukh are all about creating the perfect servant so they can live in idle luxury in control of everything. The yuan ti was a perfection in mhairshaulk but they probably built upon the earlier successes of okoth before that empire split and a group broke off to found mhairshaulk.
Wereserpents seem to be the favoured servant of okoth but I don't think it was a lycanthropy type disease, I reckon they used a potion to transform humans into part serpents so that the sarrukh flesh warping powers would work on them (and their complete command of serpentfolk).
The infiltration of okoth into mulhorand is already hinted at. An old dragon mag mentions a dig around lake azulduth where they encountered a mummified creature and the diggers perished. That was actually an expedition from mulhorand uncovering sarrukh from okoth, and they couldn't all have died (else how would any account of it survive). It seems likely that the okoth transformed some of these humans into servants and spies and released them back. My development was that the sarrukh infiltrated the cult of set (thus setting up the interaction between Set and Pililtith).
The way I see it playing out is that the cult of set gets usurped by the sarrukh of okoth, who transform the cultists into wereserpents (using the histaachi like brew). The cult of set are already infiltrating mulhorands government through the slaves and so the government officials are unaffected but the slaves that do the work are all working for the cult of set which is in turn working for the sarrukh of okoth. There might eventually be a sarrukh taking up residence in the catacombs beneath skuld, but otherwise the sarrukh remain only as end game schemes because they do not like to get their hands dirty.
If they could use the histaachi brew on the child pharaoh they could rule mulhorand forever and no one would ever know. |
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