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Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Answers I know:

Tymanther: Yep, is still there. And geographically seems to be the same as of 4e. Thank Enlil (Erin) for that. (?)

Luirien: In 4e Luirien was drowned by a great inundation. The SCAG says that the water level has receded since, and the territory now have islands and such (but is still a drowned area).

Underschasm: Was filled by Grumbar. The East Rift is probably not filled up, as the earth used to fill the Underchasm does not rise higher than Sadrak's Splinter, which lay on lower ground than the Rift before the Spellplague.

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Originally posted by Aldrick

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Originally posted by sleyvas

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Originally posted by Markustay

Well, it doesn't really present a problem at all - the rest of BRJ's sketch never actually made it into canon, which makes it technically 'fanon' (or psuedo-canon if you prefer), and we can ignore those particular inconsistencies. No need to give ourselves headaches over 'might have beens'.

Not trying to be a jerk or anything, but the rule is that officially published FR material (in any medium) is canon. What Ed says is also canon, UNLESS over-written by something published. What other official designers say/think is psuedo-canonical, which means we can take it as canon (if we want to), unless it is over-written by something published... which is the case here.

Of course, then there is the new 4e "I don't give a crap" rule, which means you can just ignore anything you want, and write whatever you want.. which is why a lot of people now think the entire concept of 'canon' no longer even exists in FR. Whats the point of having canon, when the next group of writers can change it all? Its how most 'shared worlds' eventually slide into the sewer.

Now, all that aside, once again I'd go with my "use the canon to fix the canon" approach. And if you are creative enough, you can even take inconsistencies and spin them into something pretty damn cool. Is the only problem Mourktar? I like Aldrick's suggestion above. Massive tidal waves destroyed a good part of the city, and the rest was left submerged for a time (as waters continued to rush into the Alamber), but eventually the waters receded back to more normally levels, and some parts of the city - parts on higher ground - were resettled, and newer areas were built further away from the original coast. So parts are brand new, parts are old and refurbished, and some parts are still underwater - sounds like a pretty cool adventuring locale to me.

And I picture the city to be something akin to how Marsember looks, but with perhaps smaller 'islands' (where the Old City survived).

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Actually, the more I think on it, the more I like the idea that some areas "slid" as things transferred. However, in their "sliding" perhaps they also copied, and maybe didn't "copy" so well. So, like half the city remained and half was ruined.... and it ended up 300 miles westward or eastward of where it was previously on Toril. If we take this "rule", it can explain Mourktar still being around but being more westward. We can also explain Skuld being eastward of where it should Maybe Cimbar didn't actually have the coast rise near it... maybe it "slid" away from the coast and left behind a pile of ruins (while it copied to Abeir).... and with all the people either gone or dead, no one could really figure out the truth in the madness following the spellplague.

You know, to a degree, it could be ALMOST like the Citadel of the Purple Emperor was transferred to where Skuld, the City of Shadows, was and there were these ripples of reality changing that blasted out heavily impacting the areas near it. Wonder if the Celestial Nadir with its extradimensional space..... hmmmm, not completing that sentence until I think more.

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I think using something like moving the Palace of the Purple Emperor could serve as a good explanation for why this region is so messed up. I mean, if you look at other areas that transferred, they seemed to transfer "cleanly." However, this region is a huge mess. One way to explain that is to say that the Palace of the Purple Emperor screwed up the magics of this region.

So, we could claim, that the land down here became extremely mutable. Some of it shifted wildly, while huge chunks from Abeir appeared randomly in the air, crashing down to the earth. The largest continuous transfer was the land that would eventually become Tymanther.

So, imagine it from the perspective of someone living in a city. Randomly parts of the city begin disappearing, some sections the size of entire blocks, in some cases just a building, and in some cases just parts of buildings. People are transferred and swapped. In some cases only "parts" of people transfer (with the obvious consequences).

I would, if at all possible, attempt to avoid copying. If a particular building of importance exists on both sides, then we should just assume that it was rebuilt on one side or another. If it was ruined on both sides, then it is a partial transfer.

Something like that keeps it simple and helps us avoid headaches down the road.

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Originally posted by sleyvas

Yeah, this is exactly kind of like what I was picturing. It would have a necessary thing that we would have to accept though. As far as I know we don't have a definitive date for WHEN Ususi transferred the Palace of the Purple Emperor, so this would be saying that she did it during the spellplague (which didn't necessarily all happen at once, just like not everything returned at once). So that brings up the question... is there somewhere in some novel or somesuch that actually delves on this more that maybe I haven't read? If not, I'm hesitantly saying that I like my own idea here, and I'd love to see how others might add spin to it.

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Originally posted by sleyvas

(and the people of Cimbar and Soorenar oppose him, having seen dragon kings in Abeir).

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Originally posted by sleyvas

On the Underchasm. Why do you think it doesn't rise higher than Sadrak's Splinter or that Sadrak's splinter didn't rise (though I'm not really sure of its actual height... probably the novel does describe it)?

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Originally posted by Aldrick

What happened to the subterranean temple of Gargauth that was located deep beneath the ruins of the capital city of Pelevarn--which was built into the side of the Landrise? This was Gargauth's largest temple.

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Originally posted by Aldrick

Perhaps a more elemental question: how long did it take for all the events of the Spellplague to play out? I always imagined it happening over about 48 hours. However, does canon give any hint for how long it took to play out? A month? A year? A decade? How long was the land itself mutable?

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"The earth seemed to sink down beneath his feet, as stretched cloth would yield to the weight of a walking man."

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It was as if he walked in snow or gravel, instead of solid stone; for at his touch, rock melted, not with heat but as if quickening briefly into crawling life, to quiet again when he had passed.

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Originally posted by Markustay

EDIT: Here is a link to Mike Schley's B&W Faerūn Map, which I believe was done FOR the Sundering. I must have been looking at the wrong spot - NOW I see Lance Lake. {sigh}

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Originally posted by Aldrick

What happened to the subterranean temple of Gargauth that was located deep beneath the ruins of the capital city of Pelevarn--which was built into the side of the Landrise? This was Gargauth's largest temple.

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Originally posted by Aldrick

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Originally posted by sleyvas

Yeah, this is exactly kind of like what I was picturing. It would have a necessary thing that we would have to accept though. As far as I know we don't have a definitive date for WHEN Ususi transferred the Palace of the Purple Emperor, so this would be saying that she did it during the spellplague (which didn't necessarily all happen at once, just like not everything returned at once). So that brings up the question... is there somewhere in some novel or somesuch that actually delves on this more that maybe I haven't read? If not, I'm hesitantly saying that I like my own idea here, and I'd love to see how others might add spin to it.

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Perhaps a more elemental question: how long did it take for all the events of the Spellplague to play out? I always imagined it happening over about 48 hours. However, does canon give any hint for how long it took to play out? A month? A year? A decade? How long was the land itself mutable?

We may not have an exact date for when Ususi transferred the Palace of the Purple Emperor, but do we know if it happened before or after the Spellplague? You also mentioned previously that this idea comes from Nevram the Mulan mage responsible for the fall of returned Imaskar... he thinks moving the Palace of the Purple Emperor has something to do with it... where does he say that, why does he say it, and how is it phrased? That is our best clue.

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Originally posted by Zeromaru X

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Originally posted by sleyvas

(and the people of Cimbar and Soorenar oppose him, having seen dragon kings in Abeir).

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The dragon kingdoms of Abeir were mostly located in Laerakond (Returned Abeir). Shyr was the realm of Karshimis, who the dragons hated. Remember that dragons in Abeir started the same as the dragonborn: as slaves of the primordials. They gained power after a rebellion (the War of Fang and Talon), but somehow Karshimis returned from "death". So, the dragon kingdoms that weren't in Laerakond (and thus, remained on Abeir after the Spellplague) will obviously oppose Karshimis' Shyr.

What this means? That to those under the yoke of Karshimis and the Shyran genasi, or their descendants, Tchazzar is a f*king hero.

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Originally posted by sleyvas

On the Underchasm. Why do you think it doesn't rise higher than Sadrak's Splinter or that Sadrak's splinter didn't rise (though I'm not really sure of its actual height... probably the novel does describe it)?

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Is what Lirdolin said here.

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Originally posted by Aldrick

What happened to the subterranean temple of Gargauth that was located deep beneath the ruins of the capital city of Pelevarn--which was built into the side of the Landrise? This was Gargauth's largest temple.

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The WotC guys used a divination spell and saw that someday we will created the Candlekanon, and said: "those guys are doing a great work! We will leave this decision for them to handle". (?)

More seriously, thought, dunno. Gargauth isn't even dealt with in 4e.

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Originally posted by Aldrick

Perhaps a more elemental question: how long did it take for all the events of the Spellplague to play out? I always imagined it happening over about 48 hours. However, does canon give any hint for how long it took to play out? A month? A year? A decade? How long was the land itself mutable?

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I compiled most of those infos here:
The Spellplague
The Wailing Years

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Originally posted by Markustay

EDIT: Here is a link to Mike Schley's B&W Faerūn Map, which I believe was done FOR the Sundering. I must have been looking at the wrong spot - NOW I see Lance Lake. {sigh}

I don't really recall the fine details of the Darkvision novel, but I got the idea that Pandorym - like most Elder Evils - had some sort of connection to the Far Realms (directly or indirectly, they all seem to have some sort of 'corruption' going on).

I'm not a big fan of The Far Realms (although you'd think how many times I use it in my lore I would be), but it is extremely helpful n explaining-away a lot of 'magical chaos'. If the Palace of the Purple Emperor (and the Celestial Nadir) is some sort of 'power node' (like Faersrezz and elemental nodes) for pure chaos, then it would make sense moving it - especially during a time of massive magical upheaval - would have a 'ripple effect' on the landscape, making it almost fluid-like. Some of how I picture demons and chaos working in D&D/fantasy comes from Fred Saberhagen, and his masterpiece, Empire of the East. He had an uber-'demon' named Zapranoth (sounds like a cousin of Pandorym), and here is a quote of how he desibed the demon's 'entry' into the story -

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"The earth seemed to sink down beneath his feet, as stretched cloth would yield to the weight of a walking man."

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or the Beast-Lord Draffut, 'impregnated' with elemental life -

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It was as if he walked in snow or gravel, instead of solid stone; for at his touch, rock melted, not with heat but as if quickening briefly into crawling life, to quiet again when he had passed.

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This is how I picture beings of unimaginable magnitude - and pure chaos - interacting with the merely mortal world. The PotPE may have had just such an effect on the landscape. And what if it also summoned its own terrain around itself, that would appear around it like someone pouring sand in a pool of water... except the 'water' is really the normal terrain of FR being displaced as the substance of pure chaos appears in the Realms.

Also, Sleyvas - I think you are maybe looking at the maps the wrong way - you seem to think a lot of land was 'added' randomly. That was just the shallow parts of the past water-bodies. The bay of chelimber didn't fill-in to create that marsh, it was drained. The water was rushing out of the SoFS into the Alamber and then on down into the Underchasm (how the entirety of the Underdark wasn't flooded in that century I'll never know). This is why (supposedly) all former 'coastal cities' wound-up 25-50 miles away from the new coastline (which was never actually reflected on any Heartlands map).

As for all the cities moving around - I manged to get at least a few to line-up together, which much finagling (resizing, rotating, AND stretching), but I think the basic problem stems from the 4e campaign map being 'representative', or 'abstract', rather then highly accurate. More like how old maps of the world were a couple of centuries ago - nothing was precisely placed like it is on modern maps. Rich Baker said as much back when he was still answering questions over on the WotC forums (and I greatly appreciated his honesty in that regard - I am sure he caught flack for his comments about how 'underwhelmed' he was with it).

Moving forward, some folks seemed to have taken the craptastic 4e map as 'a precise map of the Realms', which it was never meant to be. So cities fell-out in the wrong spots on better-made maps, because they were just being copied over from the primitive, inaccurate 4e campaign map. When those better maps came out, the 4e map should have been mostly disregarded, except as 'suggestion', and everything built off of canon text (and past maps superimposed) instead. Add to that that the bad 4e map was made from the the pretty yet very inaccurate 3e map, and the problems escalate.

I can probably do a fairly decent mock-up fairly quickly of how I think things should look (taking into account both RW physics AND 'magical chaos'). Islands where Lurien was intrigues me. I also like to still have a fairly close-yet-separate group of large islands for the arm of the Chultan peninsula. I don't think any map I do would even go that far west, though.

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From Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide, p.18

[...]stories circulated of known destinations being farth er away from one another, as if the world had quietly added miles of wilderness to the distance between them.

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Originally posted by Zeromaru X

There is also the fact that, after the Sundering 2.0, the world grow bigger.

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From Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide, p.18

[...]stories circulated of known destinations being farth er away from one another, as if the world had quietly added miles of wilderness to the distance between them.

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So, maybe not all of the new lands are Abeiran in origin, but whole new patches of earth born when Ao "stuffed" the world.

While is certain that many parts of Abeir on Toril weren't transposed back to Abeir, we know Ao wanted to bring back balance for both worlds, not only Toril. So, I don't believe I transposed lost of Abeir to Toril. Is more likely he avoided it when possible (because it would take more time to patch up Abeir if he does that).

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Originally posted by sleyvas

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Originally posted by Aldrick

What happened to the subterranean temple of Gargauth that was located deep beneath the ruins of the capital city of Pelevarn--which was built into the side of the Landrise? This was Gargauth's largest temple.

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Yep, I can see you're starting to see where I'm taking some things in my own stuff. Gargauth has been gone the last century. What if Peleveran went to Abeir, which is my assumption. I'm actually having my red wizards and some Chessentans from Cimbar and Soorenar and Hlath (and maybe Laothkund) actually head south and build a society in Peleveran and then eventually spreading over a small portion of the eastern Shaar.

On Cimbar and Soorenar, I'm actually having them awaken an avatar of Velsharoon in Soorenar from his phylactery in the Tower Terrible. In return, he raises an army of undead to protect these two cities and the people that remain behind. These undead become kind of special. See below where I give a little history for the Aulkir of Evocation of the Tharch of Peleveran.

School of Evocation (Aulkir) Ythazz Buvarr, Aulkir of Evocation for the Tharch of Peleveran, demilich, resides in the city of Soorenar. Ythazz Buvarr was one of the red wizards who started the original Thayan rebellion against Mulhorand, and it is rumored that it was as a lich that he met the then mortal archmage Velsharoon and his fellow “red wizards” in Halruaa before leading them to Thay. He also helped found the original Zulkirate, and subsequently began studies to become an even more powerful demilich. It was only after achieving this goal that he was entrapped beneath the city of Bezantur, where he stayed until he was found by necromancer-priests of Velsharoon and magically transported to the city of Soorenar to protect the physical Phylactery of Mellifleur in Velsharoon's Tower Terrible and surrounding temple complex in Nightal of 1384 DR. The priests did not know where they transported the lich to, only that their god required them to find him and touch his skull to act as a conduit of his divine will.
When the city of Soorenar transferred to Abeir during the spellplague and Mimuay freed the avatar of Velsharoon from his phylactery, Ythazz Buvarr was also freed from his required vigil. He was however tasked by Velsharoon to “protect the cities of Soorenar and Cimbar until they are restored to Toril”. Velsharoon, using Mimuay as a conduit, then did cast a powerful ritual of necromancy that pulled thousands of Chessentans, dragonborn and genasi from their graves for hundreds of miles. Savras, using Zulkir Yaphyll as a conduit, then blessed these undead with the ability to see through magical disguises and other divinatory blessings. Leira, using Zulkir Mythrell'aa, also granted these undead the ability to cloak themselves in illusions to hide their undead nature and appear as their former selves. Finally, Auppenser, working through a sentient magic crystal possessed by Yaphyll, awakened a spark of their former consciousness, such that these beings could hold conversations, and it is whispered that some of these undead can even peer into the minds of others and perceive their thoughts. These undead are tasked with protecting the living of Cimbar and Soorenar. "Reborn Chessenta" has since swelled with populations of genasi and dragonborn (who are treated as second class citizens by the Mulans and Chessentans of these cities) seeking the freedoms of this land over the oppression of Shyr. Many of them treat the undead surrounding their territory with great reverence, for they are their own ancestors.

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Originally posted by sleyvas

Yes, some of that land MAY have been uncovered by water shifting into the underdark. The truth is this is the supposition of sages who may not have even been to these areas previously, based off previous maps that have changed because the world is fluid-ish.

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Originally posted by Zeromaru X

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Originally posted by Markustay

EDIT: Here is a link to Mike Schley's B&W Faerūn Map, which I believe was done FOR the Sundering. I must have been looking at the wrong spot - NOW I see Lance Lake. {sigh}

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Oh, this map is beautiful... I prefer it to the one from the FRCG.

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Originally posted by Markustay

So you think they used Grumbar again? He seems to have been awful busy post-Sundering.

I suppose its apt - if anyone knows how to 'shovel it deep', its the guys at WotC.

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Originally posted by KanzenAU

The land may have gotten bigger, but probably only if you believe the land got smaller in 3e. The 3e maps were "squidged", and 4e followed that design - whereas in 5e the maps are back to how they were in the early days. "Stories circulating" of destinations being farther apart, I believe, is a nod to those who were using the 3e/4e maps as their baseline. Because they're the same distance apart they were in 1e/2e.

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Originally posted by Markustay

In fact, they should have just ignored it, and we could have said the 3e period had inaccurate maps. The fact that they pointed it out - in-game - causes more problems than it resolves.

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Originally posted by Markustay

Also, anyone know anything about what appears to be another HUGE chasm over by the Dragoncoast? I'm tempted to leave that... except Mike Schley did not include it on his 5e Heartlands map. So apparently one of the more interesting (and never discussed) items 4e added disappeared, with nary a word.

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Originally posted by Zeromaru X

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Originally posted by KanzenAU

The land may have gotten bigger, but probably only if you believe the land got smaller in 3e. The 3e maps were "squidged", and 4e followed that design - whereas in 5e the maps are back to how they were in the early days. "Stories circulating" of destinations being farther apart, I believe, is a nod to those who were using the 3e/4e maps as their baseline. Because they're the same distance apart they were in 1e/2e.

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Originally posted by Markustay

In fact, they should have just ignored it, and we could have said the 3e period had inaccurate maps. The fact that they pointed it out - in-game - causes more problems than it resolves.

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Yeah, this is the real problem. That they have said this in an in-universe way, even if they were just wink-winking some meta-joke for the old players. Worst, they say this in a section of the book named "A brief history" [of the Realms]. So, within the game context, since they acknowledged that in-universe as a fact (even if using the unreliable narrator), whereas other editions never say anything about it (one way or another), this means that this event—the "stuffing/growing" of the world—really happened in some way.

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Originally posted by Markustay

Also, anyone know anything about what appears to be another HUGE chasm over by the Dragoncoast? I'm tempted to leave that... except Mike Schley did not include it on his 5e Heartlands map. So apparently one of the more interesting (and never discussed) items 4e added disappeared, with nary a word.

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Nope, they say nothing about it.

We should not use the SCAG map as reference, however, because that specific map is more useless than those maps from 3e and 4e. This map is supposed to be a map "inhabitants in the Realms should make and use rather than omniscient 'game' maps. So they help to transport you into the setting as it people see it and they're suitable for players, as they don't contain any secret information."(source).

For all we know, and seeing the geography of that map, maybe is an outdated map from the 1300s years, not something that reflects the state of current Realms-geography.

The only accurate map in 5e is that gigantic one from the Sword Coast area from Storm's King Thunder.

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Originally posted by Markustay

On that one you can clearly see a LOT of the 4e changes - including the massive canyon (called 'Lands Mouth') are GONE. It actually looks like a very pretty, pristine map of the 1e/2e Realms.

This is why I am confused as to how to proceed. The massive continent map I am working on has pretty-much kept the 1e/2e outline, with the edition of a few new lakes, and thats it. That means after all that work, it isn't 'correct' for any edition.

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Originally posted by Markustay

So you think they used Grumbar again? He seems to have been awful busy post-Sundering.

I suppose its apt - if anyone knows how to 'shovel it deep', its the guys at WotC.

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Originally posted by Aldrick

What happened to the subterranean temple of Gargauth that was located deep beneath the ruins of the capital city of Pelevarn--which was built into the side of the Landrise? This was Gargauth's largest temple.

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Originally posted by sleyvas

Anyway, this is what the SCAG says
Gargauth is a mysterious infernal power who seeks godhood while trapped in the world within a magical shield.

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When he returned to Djerad Thymar, be began to have strange dreams about a bearded warrior who talked to him in a language Dumuzi couldn't understand. On Nightal 26, that warrior was revealed to be the god Enlil, who gave Dumuzi the power to destroy a maurezhi servant of the god-king Gilgeam, who was sent to Djerad Thymar to debilitate the city's defenses ahead of the return of Unther to Toril. When the magic of the Second Sundering was about to return Tymanther to Abeir, Dumuzi became the Chosen of Enlil, enabling the god to stop the process and allow most of Tymanther to remain on Toril.

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Originally posted by Markustay

On the other hand, it is a temple to Gargauth, and he sounds like he could possibly be an aspect of Abbathor, the dwarven god of greed. If the temple dates from the early part of the dwarven empire (I have some lore to go with all that, which I created because of the Elsir {Channath} Vale material), when they controlled a large portion of the surface around The Great rift. Such a god would appeal to humans, and I picture Pelevaran being like another 'Grym' (Pelevargrym?) - like Gauntlgrym - a city built for humans and dwarves to share (humans above, dwarves below), and it would make some sense for dwarves to build a city inside a crevasse - a passage that could have been used to invade their realm in the Great Rift. Basically, they 'plugged a hole', and dwarves being the efficient bastiches they are, they had it serve double (triple?)-duty, as a fortress and trading post... on top of the temple, which may have been re-dedicated to Gargauth and actually have been a far more ancient Ilythiir temple to someone like Ghaunadaur (or maybe a forgotten drow deity of greed and deception).

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Few beings in the Realms know of Gargauth's existence, but those who do dare not speak his name for fear he may come for a visit. However, Gargauth's name (or one of his aliases) appears in a few cautionary tales of overweening pride, insatiable greed, or overwhelming lust for power among every race of the Realms. For example, the dwarves tell a tale entitled "The Legacy of Astaroth."

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Originally posted by Markustay

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Originally posted by Aldrick

What happened to the subterranean temple of Gargauth that was located deep beneath the ruins of the capital city of Pelevarn--which was built into the side of the Landrise? This was Gargauth's largest temple.

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I've just run into a problem with this, as well.

As I've been fiddling with this particular region (Chult - Old Empires - Shining South), I realized I have to first finish at least thi portion of my large continental map, because I need a base-point before I can change anything. To that end, I've been getting in the last few rivers, etc. Just now I was drawing that river that goes from Lake Lhespan to the Great Rift - the river that flows underground on the 3e maps (and one would assume continue forward on the 4e maps... if that region had survived).

Except it was never supposed to go underground. I'm working off the Fonstad Atlas map, which is based off Ed's originals (and I even have a few of those, so I can attest to the fact that she followed Ed's maps religiously), and you can clearly see that the river enters a tight gorge (crevasse?) and goes into the Great Rift. The layout was a bit different in 0e/1e/2e and the landrise was pretty damn close to the Rift, and the floor of the Great Rift looks to be at the same altitude as the land on the other side of the Landrise, so really, rather then a big 'hole', what you have there is a HUGE plateau with a chunk missing out of it. The bottom of the Great Rift doesn't appear to go below sea Level (which makes perfect sense, if you think about that river). If its been 'filled' in' for 5e, that puts it back to that state, and anything in there is ABOVE sea level, NOT in the Underdark.

So here's the problem - Pelevaran was created in 3e, and it only makes sense in 3e, with the 'inaccurate' maps. Unless the city sits astride the crevasse, and why would anyone build a city like that? I'm picturing The Aerie now from GoT - "I want to see the man fly, mommy!"

I suppose it works for waste-disposal - everything just falls out the bottom and eventually hits the river, to get washed away. Saves on plumbing, anyway.

On the other hand, it is a temple to Gargauth, and he sounds like he could possibly be an aspect of Abbathor, the dwarven god of greed. If the temple dates from the early part of the dwarven empire (I have some lore to go with all that, which I created because of the Elsir {Channath} Vale material), when they controlled a large portion of the surface around The Great rift. Such a god would appeal to humans, and I picture Pelevaran being like another 'Grym' (Pelevargrym?) - like Gauntlgrym - a city built for humans and dwarves to share (humans above, dwarves below), and it would make some sense for dwarves to build a city inside a crevasse - a passage that could have been used to invade their realm in the Great Rift. Basically, they 'plugged a hole', and dwarves being the efficient bastiches they are, they had it serve double (triple?)-duty, as a fortress and trading post... on top of the temple, which may have been re-dedicated to Gargauth and actually have been a far more ancient Ilythiir temple to someone like Ghaunadaur (or maybe a forgotten drow deity of greed and deception).

So the original temple should have stood at ground (sea) level, where the river exits the crevasse, and the dwarves could have just constructed everything else on top of it. Picture the dwarven portion looking like a wedge driven into the chasm, and the humans would have had a settlement on top of that, at the level of the upper Landrise (Eastern Shaar). It would have been useful also to get from the bottom to the top of the landrise, internally. All this would have possibly been done back when the Arkaiun first arrived in the Council Hills (a group of people with a 'fiendish' past, and this happens about a decade after the Orcgate wars, so their was a deific power-vacuum).

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Originally posted by Aldrick

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Originally posted by sleyvas

Anyway, this is what the SCAG says
Gargauth is a mysterious infernal power who seeks godhood while trapped in the world within a magical shield.

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Ugh. It's as if they only took a cursory look at the lore, and failed to read it in-depth.

Gargauth was not trapped in the shield. It was always described as an unholy artifact that allowed Gargauth to communicate with the Knights of the Shield. Per Lords of Darkness, pg. 151: "The shield is an artifact sacred to the deity Gargauth..."

Although I am sure you are already aware of this Sleyvas, for anyone who isn't I am going to do a quick review of the deity.

According to the lore (pg. 23-25 of Powers and Pantheons), Gargauth obtained his initial divinity by killing a number of demon lords of great power, the first among them being Astaroth. He also actively hunted down an killed numerous devils whose essences were completely in the Realms. Upon killing them he would then steal their cults.

Gargauth's influence in the Realms was so pervasive he nearly became a lesser power. This frightened the deities of Bane, Bhaal, Loviatar, and Tolona to such a degree that they combined their forces to kill his followers and undermine his plans. One of the reasons he is such a great threat to them is because unlike many evil deities who focus on trying to undermine priesthoods and faithful of benevolent faiths like that of Torm, he focuses on stealing faithful from other malevolent deities--like those deities previously mentioned.

In fact, he was actively researching for a way to re-establish the Godswall created by the Imaskari, but instead of blocking the Mulan deities, he wanted to block other malevolent deities from accessing Toril. That would have allowed him to steal their faithful and increase his own power.

It is unclear how or when Gargauth first appeared in the Realms, but when he initially did so he was trapped in "the depths of an endless pit" located somewhere below the city of Peleveria, the capital of Peleveran. He used Tuelhalva Drakewings to assist in liberating him from the pit, and in exchange he summoned forth an army of devils to serve the Archmage. Gargauth then betrayed the mage, which ultimately led to his death roughly a month later, the total collapse of Peleveran, and the first schism within the Cult of the Dragon.

Roughly 50 years after the fall of Peleveran, faithful of Gargauth--those who knowingly and willingly worship him--returned to the ruins of Peleveria. Around the pit that Gargauth was once trapped in they constructed a large subterranean fortress temple around the pit which they call "The Dark Pit of Maleficence." The pit itself is rumored to connect to the Nine Hells. The place was basically located in the Underdark, and housed over 100 priests and 250 lay worshipers, who had vast fungal farms and herds of deep rothe. It is because of all of this that temples elsewhere that are intentionally and knowingly dedicated to Gargauth also tend to be underground and are accessed by a deep pit of some sort. This is a religious call back to the Dark Pit of Maleficence. There were temples in such likeness under Baldur's Gate, Bezantur, Laothkund, Myratma, Sheirtalar, Teziir, Waterdeep, and dozens of other unnamed cities.

Of course, Gargauth is best known in canon for his manipulations of the Knights of the Shield, where he communes with the Shield Council through the Shield of the Hidden Lord. However, he was not--until the SCAG, apparently--trapped in the Shield.

All of this is in addition to the numerous cults, secretive fellowships, and wizard cabals he secretly sponsers throughout the Realms. Few people, even their leaders, know who they truly serve. This likely accounts for the bulk of Gargauth's actual worship.

I lay all of this out there because, although Gargauth never got much screen time or love in the Realms, he was actually a very influential power. He was almost as powerful and widespread as deities such as Malar and Lliira--once again, he was almost a lesser power in the Realms.

If he was given actual consideration in the canon, he would have easily ascended to become a lesser deity--maybe more--in the aftermath of the Time of Troubles, the death of Bane, and the chaos caused by the actions of Cyric. Gargauth would have been gobbling up followers from Myrkul, Bane, and Bhaal left and right. Cyric and Kelemvor would likely have been nothing more than intermediate or lesser powers in this scenario. He likely also would have assisted Xvim in ascension to his father's place as Lord of Tyranny, setting himself up to be the "power behind" Xvim's throne.

It drives me crazy that he gets demoted simply to the thing he is most well known for which is the Knights of the Shield plotline.

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All of this is relevant and important--especially due to the location of his largest temple--because it is located near the Old Empires and Tymanther specifically. Since we know Gilgeam is playing with demons, it might make sense that Gargauth would have an interest in events going down in this region. This does not even touch upon Asmodeus involvement down here--basically in Gargauth's backyard.

Out of curiosity, since we know that Asmodeus struck up a deal with Enlil for Nanna-Sin's divine essence, what happens if Enlil is really Gargauth in disguise? If Gilgeam is not the real Gilgeam, and potentially a powerful demon impersonating him--considering his Abyssal connections--then how do we know Enlil is the real Enlil?

Nanna-Sin, at least for a time, was really Selune. Of course, the Dragonborn had some sort of weird connection to Nanna-Sin since Selune--as Nanna-Sin--seemed to help them after their arrival on Toril. However, at some point Nanna-Sin stopped being Selune, and started being "Nanna-Sin"--perhaps some aspect of Selune that "worship" (in their own way) from the Dragonborn transformed into a weak deity in its own right that saw itself as Nanna-Sin--but as Nanna-Sin imagined by the Dragonborn, rather than the Untheric peoples. (If that makes sense, lol. Nanna-Sin #1: The original. Nanna-Sin #2: Selune. Nanna-Sin #3: Aspect of Selune that was transformed by the "worship" of the Dragonborn. #3 believes it is the original and is molded after the beliefs of the Dragonborn.)

If Gargauth is Enlil that would explain his sudden "return" and interest in the Realms again. It would also be in character for Gargauth to mascarade as another deity or power since that is his standard mode of operation. The Dragonborn, in large part due to their ignorance, are extremely vulnerable to such tactics by Gargauth. Being located nearby such a major center of his worship, and having powerful demons running around in the region--plus Asmodeus--it makes sense for Gargauth to have an interest or a stake here. It would also be awesome if Asmodeus, in a moment of vulnerability and desperation, accidentally and unknowingly entered into an agreement with Gargauth. An agreement that would come back to haunt him at a later time.

It could also be a means through which Asmodeus loses his godhood and Gargauth gains his worshipers in the Realms. That would reset the Nine Hells back to their original state. I mean it is a bit problematic to allow to similar deities to operate in the Faerunian Pantheon, both of which were/are powerful Arch-Devils and current/former leaders of one of the Nine Hells. It also upsets the balance in the Nine Hells between Asmodeus and the other arch-devils, basically pushing them to get godhood as well to counteract the moves being made by Asmodeus. The whole thing turns into a mess, and it is unnecessary as well, since Gargauth already exists and is/was way more established as a deity in the Realms than Asmodeus.


Anyway, the relevant events regarding Enlil's return are written up on the FR Wiki under the character entry for Kepeshkmolik Dumuzi. Link: http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Kepeshkmolik_Dumuzi

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When he returned to Djerad Thymar, be began to have strange dreams about a bearded warrior who talked to him in a language Dumuzi couldn't understand. On Nightal 26, that warrior was revealed to be the god Enlil, who gave Dumuzi the power to destroy a maurezhi servant of the god-king Gilgeam, who was sent to Djerad Thymar to debilitate the city's defenses ahead of the return of Unther to Toril. When the magic of the Second Sundering was about to return Tymanther to Abeir, Dumuzi became the Chosen of Enlil, enabling the god to stop the process and allow most of Tymanther to remain on Toril.

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So, "Enlil" contacted Dumuzi and assisted him in destroying a servant of Gilgeam. "Enlil" also stopped Tymanther from returning to Abeir--or at least most of it. That is quite a feat for a deity who abandoned Toril centuries prior, randomly returned, seemed to possess intimate knowledge of Unther's and Gilgeam's imminent return, and at that point had zero faithful in the Realms. Just sayin'. Enlil is probably someone else.

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Originally posted by Aldrick

Out of curiosity, since we know that Asmodeus struck up a deal with Enlil for Nanna-Sin's divine essence, what happens if Enlil is really Gargauth in disguise? If Gilgeam is not the real Gilgeam, and potentially a powerful demon impersonating him--considering his Abyssal connections--then how do we know Enlil is the real Enlil?

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Originally posted by Aldrick

Nanna-Sin, at least for a time, was really Selune. Of course, the Dragonborn had some sort of weird connection to Nanna-Sin since Selune--as Nanna-Sin--seemed to help them after their arrival on Toril. However, at some point Nanna-Sin stopped being Selune, and started being "Nanna-Sin"--perhaps some aspect of Selune that "worship" (in their own way) from the Dragonborn transformed into a weak deity in its own right that saw itself as Nanna-Sin--but as Nanna-Sin imagined by the Dragonborn, rather than the Untheric peoples. (If that makes sense, lol. Nanna-Sin #1: The original. Nanna-Sin #2: Selune. Nanna-Sin #3: Aspect of Selune that was transformed by the "worship" of the Dragonborn. #3 believes it is the original and is molded after the beliefs of the Dragonborn.)

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Originally posted by sleyvas

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Originally posted by Markustay

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Originally posted by Aldrick

What happened to the subterranean temple of Gargauth that was located deep beneath the ruins of the capital city of Pelevarn--which was built into the side of the Landrise? This was Gargauth's largest temple.

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I've just run into a problem with this, as well.

As I've been fiddling with this particular region (Chult - Old Empires - Shining South), I realized I have to first finish at least thi portion of my large continental map, because I need a base-point before I can change anything. To that end, I've been getting in the last few rivers, etc. Just now I was drawing that river that goes from Lake Lhespan to the Great Rift - the river that flows underground on the 3e maps (and one would assume continue forward on the 4e maps... if that region had survived).

Except it was never supposed to go underground. I'm working off the Fonstad Atlas map, which is based off Ed's originals (and I even have a few of those, so I can attest to the fact that she followed Ed's maps religiously), and you can clearly see that the river enters a tight gorge (crevasse?) and goes into the Great Rift. The layout was a bit different in 0e/1e/2e and the landrise was pretty damn close to the Rift, and the floor of the Great Rift looks to be at the same altitude as the land on the other side of the Landrise, so really, rather then a big 'hole', what you have there is a HUGE plateau with a chunk missing out of it. The bottom of the Great Rift doesn't appear to go below sea Level (which makes perfect sense, if you think about that river). If its been 'filled' in' for 5e, that puts it back to that state, and anything in there is ABOVE sea level, NOT in the Underdark.

So here's the problem - Pelevaran was created in 3e, and it only makes sense in 3e, with the 'inaccurate' maps. Unless the city sits astride the crevasse, and why would anyone build a city like that? I'm picturing The Aerie now from GoT - "I want to see the man fly, mommy!"

I suppose it works for waste-disposal - everything just falls out the bottom and eventually hits the river, to get washed away. Saves on plumbing, anyway.

On the other hand, it is a temple to Gargauth, and he sounds like he could possibly be an aspect of Abbathor, the dwarven god of greed. If the temple dates from the early part of the dwarven empire (I have some lore to go with all that, which I created because of the Elsir {Channath} Vale material), when they controlled a large portion of the surface around The Great rift. Such a god would appeal to humans, and I picture Pelevaran being like another 'Grym' (Pelevargrym?) - like Gauntlgrym - a city built for humans and dwarves to share (humans above, dwarves below), and it would make some sense for dwarves to build a city inside a crevasse - a passage that could have been used to invade their realm in the Great Rift. Basically, they 'plugged a hole', and dwarves being the efficient bastiches they are, they had it serve double (triple?)-duty, as a fortress and trading post... on top of the temple, which may have been re-dedicated to Gargauth and actually have been a far more ancient Ilythiir temple to someone like Ghaunadaur (or maybe a forgotten drow deity of greed and deception).

So the original temple should have stood at ground (sea) level, where the river exits the crevasse, and the dwarves could have just constructed everything else on top of it. Picture the dwarven portion looking like a wedge driven into the chasm, and the humans would have had a settlement on top of that, at the level of the upper Landrise (Eastern Shaar). It would have been useful also to get from the bottom to the top of the landrise, internally. All this would have possibly been done back when the Arkaiun first arrived in the Council Hills (a group of people with a 'fiendish' past, and this happens about a decade after the Orcgate wars, so their was a deific power-vacuum).

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Can't talk a lot on these right now. Need to get to work, but I want to talk with you about this Markustay.

First, Peleveran wasn't invited in 3e. It was invented in 2e in Powers and Pantheons by Eric Boyd in the section on Gargauth. In it it said

"Peleveran was located in the triangle formed between present-day Torsch and Harcastle and the Great Rift. Its capital, Peleveria, was built into the side of the Landrise. Its capital, Peleveria, was built into the side of the Landrise. The kingdom was destroyed in the first great schism of the Cult of the Dragon. The archmage Tuelhalva Drakewings broke from the Cult, possibly at Gargauth's suggestion, and seized the throne in 1018 DR, the Year of the Dracorage. His rule lasted barely a month before 21 mages of the Cult called down a flight of dracoliches and dragons on the beleaguered land. Only a handful of ruins survive of that long-forgotten kingdom. What was once a tree-cloaked fertile land is now barren, open, stony country."

"The Dark Pit of Maleficence was built by Gargauth's clergy more than 50 years after the destruction of Peleveran on the supposed site of Gargauth's first appearance in the Realms. The subterannean fortress is accessed via a large cavern tunnel into the Landrise that served Pelevaria as a huge granary."

I'm picturing Peleveran as a city built into the cliffs of the landrise like the Indian Pueblos kind of. As a Cliffside city, this makes it highly defensible. I imagine also that there was a trail that led from the top of the Landrise to the bottom, and so Pelevaria became a waypoint for people to traverse from one side of the Shaar to the other. However, I want to know the part about the river better. In my maps I was also planning to build small cities at the top and bottom of the land rise as well and link these to Peleveran (which is what I'm calling the city despite it earlier being named Peleveria.... the Thayans didn't know better, plus they rebuilt it).

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