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Originally posted by Markustay

Ya know, come to think of it, the Imaskari Godwall is the #1 reason I think that Ao was NOT the Overgod of Realms for most of its existence There were tons of times he really should have gotten involved, and didn't. Too bad 4e/5e lore had to screw-up and mention him in the past tense,

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Originally posted by Zeromaru X

The ones from High Imaskar? The survivors of the rebellion fled to the Desert of Purple Dust or to other planes, according to the SCAG. There is nothing more about them.

The ones from Deep Imaskar are sound and safe in the Underdark, saying to their High cousins "told ya".

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Originally posted by Markustay

So lets see, we have Halaster, Nezram(?), Yaravindar Ipurnos, and Tan Chin, who are still 'alive & well' (well, Halaster is back, right? And Tan Chin may be a Lich, but he possesses living bodies, so that my loophole).

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Originally posted by Markustay

Not sure about putting the 'Red Forest' there. Don't get me wrong, i like it, but I think it should be something reflective of what happened there. I can put the 'Red Forest' somewhere else. I tried googling 'Red Giant', and aside from many pics of large red suns (Superman would have peed himself), the only humanoid thing I found was some pics of the Red Hulk... which lead me something called 'Salangor, the Red Giant', but I can't figure out where its from (other than Salingor being a town in Malayasia... Hey! maybe the people on that missing plane ended-up in the Realms!) Anyhow, from the couple of pics I could find of whatever that is, it looks sort of like a red stone giant.

A good piece of Abeir, for sure, and I can place it in that region (and want to), but probably no where the MotGS is/was. I was actually thinking something along Eberron's Mournland (so, like Wild magic regions on steroids).

"Ki's Cleft" - can we say some folks call it "Mielikki's Minge".
Funny thing is, I was thinking of putting a few crevasses here and there where the Underchasm was, so we were on the same page here.

I tried googling 'red monster', and got pics of Kane (WWF), Elmo, Monster energy drink, and This Guy. That dude can give you nightmares. You wanted something 'different', and that's pretty damn different.

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Originally posted by sleyvas

You do have a good point there... and honestly, I have been struggling with the red forest once I started putting pen to paper. You know... maybe I should have that little thin section of Chondalwood that's at the top of the eastern Shaar leading into the landrise get transferred. I did want to have red wizard involvement with the red mineral forest.

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Originally posted by sleyvas

Oooo, and yes I like the picture of that dude.... almost like somehow the centaurs of the Shaar that transferred over were transformed by the power of a primordial? Or this is a natural occurrence from years of eating the fruit of some "don't eat the fruit of that tree" tree. Red Skinned giants with a similar type of look would also be very good (but maybe with a ring of horns around their heads like Darth Maul).

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Originally posted by sleyvas

Still liking the idea of having the Citadel of Burning ice also transfer and having the bound dragon of Karshimis in it and it being attached to the Mineral forest of Shyr.... heck... what if some followers of Tchazzar get some idea that they can perform a ritual and have Tchazzar reborn in this dragon? And maybe they are right.... and maybe the followers of Tiamat don't want that to happen.

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Originally posted by sleyvas

But, then that idea brings us back to "what to do with the hole that is the Maw of the Godswallower?"

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Originally posted by sleyvas

Oh, and Mielikki's Minge... glad you got the reference, and I can see some folk showing up to claim that it wasn't Ki it was Mielikki. I don't have a problem with these primal entities also having ties to sex and births, and given that it gives a "rebirth" to the world of sorts, I think its appropriate.

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Originally posted by Markustay

The Preview Books:
Yeah, I read those back when they first came out... within a few months, anyway - I was unwilling to PAY for something that amounted to a self-congratulatory giant advertisement for 4e, with lots of mutual backslapping going on (for destroying FR ). I felt like I was rolling around in someone else's narcissism. It was... unpleasant.

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Originally posted by Markustay

As for Melora

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Originally posted by Markustay

I like the idea that Ao isn't as 'all power' as we were lead to believe (he could get rid of the entropy-thing, but even he couldn't just *snap* his fingers and make the damage go away). It may have something to do with that 'far Realms' (Tharizdun) corruption - Powers from the normal universe are very limited in what they can do about stuff from that one (and yeah, I am picturing the MotGS being something akin to a black hole - stuff it was 'eating' was pouring out over there, so it was actually like a Gate). So now that the thing is gone, we are just left with a patch of 'no rules' universe there.

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Originally posted by Markustay

Yeah, I am pretty-sure Ki/Mielikki is an ANCIENT Goddess. Maybe not a primordial, but definitely one of the very first deities to arise. Even the elves worship an aspect of her - she's extremely 'primal' (so maybe one of those confusing 'Primal Powers' 4e created?)

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Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Dunno if you know about the 4e preview books. In those books they share their development ideas and that stuff of "the making of 4e". I got them because most of the backstory of the races and places of Nerath is in those books.

In one of those books (the one about the world, IIRC) is revealed that they wanted to change the core world of D&D. They didn't want to use Greyhawk anymore, instead they wanted to use the Realms as the core world, and created the Nentir Vale as the starting place in the Realms for that purpose (well, this bit of info was revealed by Chris Perkins in Twitter). Then, they realized (with good reason) that using the Realms as the Core world will be problematic with the fans, but at that point had created the whole Nentir Vale and other stuffs, and said "this is too good to wasted it", so they re-purposed it into a new pseudo-setting, the Nentir Vale world (or just "the D&D world", as was called back in the day).

So, while most of the initial 4e core stuff seems "shoehorned" into the Realms (such as races or the cosmology), the truth is that it was first developed to be part of the Realms, and later re-purposed to become its own thing (and there is a Dragon article that specifically states that the World Axis cosmology was designed originally for the Realms, and later adapted into the Core world). This is also why most of the Nentir Vale stuff seems to be copy-pasted from the Realms. Nentir Vale was part of the Realms at first (heck, the World even has a "Weave" if we go by the novels).

With the gods was quite the reverse, though. They began creating their own gods, but later said "If we have a fey god, why don't use the old good Corellon instead?". So, they used most of the Greyhawk gods because players were most familiar with them (though they used Bahamut instead of Heirouneus because Bahamut is cool—they say that in the book, but I support their good tastes ), but a few of the new gods remained in the end (they favored the newly created Melora—somehow a fusion of Umberlee and Silvanus—over Obad-Hai, for instance).

Some gods used placeholder names. Such as Bane. The core god of war was more like Mars/Ares at the beginning, because without Heironeus, Hextor doesn't makes sense. But they used Bane as the placeholder name, and the name stuck... thus, Bane became a Core god.

BTW, Pelor's placeholder, at least initially, was Amaunator

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Originally posted by Markustay

So lets see, we have Halaster, Nezram(?), Yaravindar Ipurnos, and Tan Chin, who are still 'alive & well' (well, Halaster is back, right? And Tan Chin may be a Lich, but he possesses living bodies, so that my loophole).

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Nezram is Mulhorandi. And seeing his actions in recent years, the guy will kill you if he knows you said he was Imaskari,

Halaster... yeah, I guess he is fine. The guy has so many clones, that players can even chose a 4e theme (something like the 5e backgrounds) were their characters are Halaster's clones.

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Originally posted by Zeromaru X

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Originally posted by sleyvas

[b[ Ki's Cleft - [/b] It is said that Ki's avatar form appeared from the nearby forest of Chondalwood during the Sundering and that her presence sent great swells of green glowing energy throughout the Tharch. This cleft actually reaches all the way down to the Great Rift, where it has a small opening high up on the north wall of the Great Rift.

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I can heat Grumbar saying "I didn't filled that **** Underscham" for you to come and create this shit!"

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Originally posted by sleyvas

Personally, you've heard my idea of having a copy of a portion of Abeir coming over. I called it the "Red Mineral Forest of Shyr", and I was going to include that it held the Citadel of Burning Ice that belonged to Karshimis (but Karshimis didn't come over).

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The problem with this is that Ao wanted to restore both worlds, not just Toril. My point here is that he didn't repaired Toril at expense of Abeir. I'm pretty sure he repaired Abeir as well (because Mystra wants to protect Abeir as well in Ed's article about the Sundering*).

Another point is that we have to take into account is that he wanted to separate Abeir and Toril again (because status quo...**), so during the Second Sundering he didn't exchanged terrain unless it was absolutely necesary (like, there was something Torilian in that terrain during the "transposing"), and even so, when this happened the exchange was kept to the minimum (just land, not features). We also know that Ao didn't cared for individuals (because many people was just sent to Abeir or Toril during the SS indiscriminately, regardless of their original world), so he not transposed land just for bringing people back.

If there was no necessity for transposing, he just repaired (see, Grumbar filling up the Underchasm, or the Great Rain).

So, if you like to have this forest, you have to make it something that was transposed to Toril before the Second Sundering, and prepare a good reason for why it remained after it (like Enlil protecting Tymanther).

The issue here is that, there is no reason for a forest of Shyr to be there. Before the SS, there was a black hole there, not a forest. My suggestion is that you should move the forest from there. But I don't see a reason for Ao to have brought the whole Citadel of Karshimis to Toril. It will go against his whole "separation of worlds" philosophy. You need a really, really good explanation for this, beyond "is cool, we should use it".

For instance, I want to "bring back" Nentir Vale to the Realms (yeah, bringing back... it was supposed to be part of the Realms). But my idea is that the Nentir Vale was there (wherever this there will be... since there is a canon map that uses that spot , so perhaps we need a new one for the Ckanon) there since the Spellplague. So, I just need a reason to allow it to stay (and I'm going to plagiarize Erin's one... if a god with barely power can protect Tymanther, a full god with established religion in the Realms can protect Nentir Vale effortlessly)

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*That, btw, I guess we should use for the Candlekanon. Is in Dragon 427, for those interested.

**This is why I see Laerakond lost in canon, and that is sad. Laerakond was way better than Mesoameri... I mean, Maztica.

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Originally posted by Markustay


@Sleyvas -
As much as I hate Goliaths, how about a group of red-tinged ones (makes it easy form them to hide amongst the trees). They could be red & black mottled, instead of the usual B&W.

"The Goliaths of Abeir are somewhat different than those of Toril and beyond. They've always lived in hiding, fearing the dragons would take them for true giants and slaughter them on sight. This not only causes them to be reclusive, and isolationist, but it also leads them to find any means to keep themselves from being seen at all. Take for example the Goliaths of the Red Mineral Forest: they managed to find and extricate Cinnabryl from the mineral trees, and by ingesting it, they take on the color of the forest, and are able to blend-in quite well. Of course, the exotic substance causes other... effects. But one can't be too choosey when hiding from one's enemies."

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Originally posted by Markustay

I don't think it was that I was 'unaware'. I'm not sure how to put it - GH was always 'core'. then in 4e they started coming out with stuff for something called 'Netir Vale', which looked for all the world like a 'D&D hodgepodge' setting, and was even referred to by WotC designers (early-on) as a 'non-setting' (they were just going to toss-out chunks of lore all over the place, which may or may not apply to the same world).

The part that I seem to have 'missed' was that at some point during 4e's tenure (which I had stopped paying attention to), the non-setting became an actual, cohesive setting... with novels! I was even aware of the Abyssal Plague novels, but I didn't look into them when I saw they were cross-world (in other words, 'generic D&D').

I had just assumed that if I needed a world where a bunch of 'core pantheon' worshipers came from, that would have been GH (even though I KNEW their were differences, my assumption once again was that "Greyhawk got some new gods". At no point in time did I think anything from the core rulebooks didn't pertain to GH (because I am very old, and "thats the way its always been").

So I guess what I am trying to say is that it wasn't so much that "I missed it", but rather, more like I just wasn't even looking in the right direction to see it. I had blinders on when it came to 4e.

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Originally posted by Zeromaru X

The ones from High Imaskar? The survivors of the rebellion fled to the Desert of Purple Dust or to other planes, according to the SCAG. There is nothing more about them.

The ones from Deep Imaskar are sound and safe in the Underdark, saying to their High cousins "told ya".

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No, this is someone different, before there even were 'Deep Imaskari'.

So lets see, we have Halaster, Nezram(?), Yaravindar Ipurnos, and Tan Chin, who are still 'alive & well' (well, Halaster is back, right? And Tan Chin may be a Lich, but he possesses living bodies, so that my loophole). Thats enough for an Imaskari bowling team! We'll call them the 'Imaskari immortals'.

We could put them up against the Nethere-Ease, an all-lich team consisting of Larloch, Aumvor, Iouluam, and Lady Saharal (okay, she's actually a ghost, but close enough).

Its gonna be a fun night at the trans-planer archmage bowling ally!

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Originally posted by sleyvas

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Originally posted by Markustay


@Sleyvas -
As much as I hate Goliaths, how about a group of red-tinged ones (makes it easy form them to hide amongst the trees). They could be red & black mottled, instead of the usual B&W.

"The Goliaths of Abeir are somewhat different than those of Toril and beyond. They've always lived in hiding, fearing the dragons would take them for true giants and slaughter them on sight. This not only causes them to be reclusive, and isolationist, but it also leads them to find any means to keep themselves from being seen at all. Take for example the Goliaths of the Red Mineral Forest: they managed to find and extricate Cinnabryl from the mineral trees, and by ingesting it, they take on the color of the forest, and are able to blend-in quite well. Of course, the exotic substance causes other... effects. But one can't be too choosey when hiding from one's enemies."

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Hmmm, I like this idea maybe and will consider it. The earth is red, and maybe the tree bark on a lot of the trees as well. However, the leaves on the trees, I'm also picturing as being many different "neon-like"/"gem-like" colors, so there might even be options for other colors.

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The most obvious nonliving manifestation of the curse is vermeil, a reddish dust found in the air and soil of the region. Vermeil is sometimes referred to as dragon's blood. The substance radiates magic, and since it is omnipresent along most of the savage Coast, detect Magic and similar spells are all bust useless there.

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Originally posted by sleyvas

Hmmm, I could definitely buy the red mineral forest being able to produce Vermeil. I could also buy that grinding up some of the leaves may produce different kinds of magical powder.

Yeah, now I'm really really thinking about swapping that little portion of Chondalwood that extends into the shaar and making it the red mineral forest.

BTW, one of the things I'm thinking about with Peleveran is that while they were in Abeir, Khass the rain god from Complete Book of Barbarians is restored and they embrace him (red wizards love weather guys). Anyway, so for a hundred years with the help of a god and their own magic, they make this section of the eastern shaar verdant and they even plant trees. However, if they have this small empire from all over the world AND they have a large open area.... what do you think about them importing trees from Abeir / Katashaka / Lopango Jungle / Osse ? I'm not picturing the Shaar being like a rainforest or anything, but I can see several small forests and/or groves being groomed to grow. What kind of stuff can you see them wanting to grow beside fruit trees, Palm trees (because Khass has palm trees as fingers), and hardwoods and maybe rubber plants?


Oh, and Masauwu (aka Skeleton Man)... except for the fact that he led the Azuposi out of the earth... I'm not seeing him as anything to do with Ubtao's family. I'm not quite sure WHAT to make of him. He's a spirit of death and fertility and he gave the Azuposi fire. I also don't see the Azuposi as having been on Anchorome that long.


I strongly believe that the Azuposi came from Kara Tur because of the hints in City of Gold about how much they resemble the Wu-Haltai.

According to their myth of creation, the Azuposi believe they came from the ground; that they were called forth by Skeleton Man, who showed them plants to grow and fire for light and warmth. It may be that the Azuposi actually did come from the ground. #151;Perhaps, like the desert dwarves, they came through the Underdark of the world'#146;s crust. Given their physical appearance and language, however, the Azuposi ancestors probably did not come from the continent of the Forgotten Realms, but from the oriental lands of Kara-Tur. Indeed, future scholars may discover
remarkable commonalities between the languages of the Azuposi and the Wu-haltai and other races of Kara-Tur#146;s Northern
Wastes.

I honestly thing they're related to this from the Kara-Tur boxed set.

After battling a bakemono horde at the Hill of Namaskar, Queen Triala of the Tayamulchi decided that her homeland was no longer safe. Guided by a divinely-inspired vision, or so she claimed, her people would leave in search of a new land. It would be a rich land where the reindeer would thrive, where the streams are almost choked with salmon, where the winters are mild and in summer the forest overflows with nourishment.

The clans elected to follow her vision; it provided more hope than what was promised by the wolfish tribes that surrounded them in the Ama Basin. Therefore they journeyed north, vengefully razing some humanoid territory on the way, into the Land of Snow Demons.

No one has since heard from the Tayanulchi, and it is unknown whether they found the land of their vision, still wander the barren tundra, or all perished in the northern ice.

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Originally posted by Markustay

Thanks for the correction on Nezram - I wasn't sure, hence the '(?)' I had put there.

The Preview Books:
Yeah, I read those back when they first came out... within a few months, anyway - I was unwilling to PAY for something that amounted to a self-congratulatory giant advertisement for 4e, with lots of mutual backslapping going on (for destroying FR ). I felt like I was rolling around in someone else's narcissism. It was... unpleasant.

On the other hand, they actually had a bunch of very good ideas. Too bad they didn't use any of those. I loved the spin they put on undead (which matched my own thoughts of 'Body, Mind, & Soul' perfectly). I've already resolved the 'Core Bane' dilemma elsewhere (including the weirdness about who helped him achieve godhood). 'Core' Bane is the real Bane... OUR Bane, from FR. It was a 'cheap knock-off' that we've had for awhile (Xvim poising as daddy). NOW 'Core' Bane IS FR Bane... NO PROBLEM.

As for Melora - I hope they axed her. There was no point for her - she actually 'lessened' the setting (from the gods who's places she had taken). I felt like she was somebody's 'homebrew' that got forced into 4e (I am sure there were a couple of under-the-table deals being made - "You support me on this, and I'll support you on that".)

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Originally posted by sleyvas

You do have a good point there... and honestly, I have been struggling with the red forest once I started putting pen to paper. You know... maybe I should have that little thin section of Chondalwood that's at the top of the eastern Shaar leading into the landrise get transferred. I did want to have red wizard involvement with the red mineral forest.

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Suggestion: use the Maerchwood instead - we lost it for an entire edition (3e). Lets say it 'went to Abeir' during the ToT (and Brian James has said that some land-transfers DID occur during that period), and that's why it wasn't on the 3e maps. Now its 'come home'... CHANGED. This not only solves where to put it, but is resolves the 'where the heck did it go' from 3e, and also the lore-conundrum that Zeromaru has pointed out - unless gods were involved, everything was supposed to 'return home'. If it was originally from FR, then thats why its back... but weird. (Didn't like my Cinnabryl, angle, eh?)

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Originally posted by Zeromaru X

I was reading Ed's answers on many topics, and I really wanted I have been here in the years he was actively answering in the Realms. I'd like to have a few answers on many stuffs, but at the least some of the answers addressed many doubts of mine (regarding gods, destiny and that stuff).

Also, in which year are you working in your campaign/idea, sleyvas? Current novels year (1491)?

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Originally posted by Zeromaru X

I was reading Ed's answers on many topics, and I really wanted I have been here in the years he was actively answering in the Realms.

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Originally posted by Gyor

I've looking into things and I still think Okoth would be absorbed into Mulhorand, Okoth had 18 Sarrakhs left, out of 80 so before the spell plague, and the population was low else where.

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Originally posted by Gyor

Plus I don't see the Wereserpents and Werecrocodiles remaining loyal to Okoth now that they're traditional Gods had returned, and most of Okoths population was Wereserpents and to a lesser extent Werecrocodiles.

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Originally posted by Zeromaru X

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Originally posted by Gyor

I've looking into things and I still think Okoth would be absorbed into Mulhorand, Okoth had 18 Sarrakhs left, out of 80 so before the spell plague, and the population was low else where.

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Okoth has 18 left yeah. But they are not isolated. According tos sourcebooks like Shinning South, Okoth is linked to other sarruk enclaves across all Faerûn (and perhaps beyond) via portals. Like the one in Halruua (in Chasolné—that one is also mentioned in the FRCG*).

Perhaps that can explain how the other sarrukh and yuan-ti invaded so easily old Okoth: they have always had means of direct access to the city.

So yeah, Mulhorand can try to invade... they will have nearly every yuant-ti and sarrukh in Faerûn on their doorstep.

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Originally posted by Gyor

Plus I don't see the Wereserpents and Werecrocodiles remaining loyal to Okoth now that they're traditional Gods had returned, and most of Okoths population was Wereserpents and to a lesser extent Werecrocodiles.

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Yeah, guys like Osiris, that kills them because reasons every now and them. While, they are citizens with rights in Okoth. I don't see that trade a wise.

Obviously, in your Realms you can make Mulhorand conquer the whole world if you want. But logically speaking, I don't see Mulhorand as powerful as they were.

They fear the Tymanther-Unther war. A war between an small nation vs a weakened nation. A powerful nation not need to fear in a conflict so small... yet, Mulhorand fears, and that says a lot.

Okoth is even a more powerful foe than those other two.

*FRCG, p.137
Chalsoné: Beyond the altar, a tunnel opens into a domed chamber. Three round passages lead into the earth from this chamber, leading to an ancient sarrukh site. Two sarrukh still reside here. They perform experiments on their lizardfolk servants and on captured travelers and sailors. Through magic portals, the site connects to Ilimar and Okoth.

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