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Spectralballoons
Acolyte
Pakistan
48 Posts |
 Posted - 29 May 2017 : 18:50:39
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I remember a candlekeep user saying something about amazon sales figures, but I don't have the link with me.
It fits with certain things about their cancellation of the FR line. Historically, this has been the main reason for cancellation of novel lines (Atleast it's what happened to Dragonlance, and for Planescape this combined with a poor reception by the fanbase.), and seems to explain why an author quit due to WoTC not paying well enough - probably, they could not justify paying his desired wages due to low sales figures, and they wouldn't remove the novel line uselessly. Their reluctance in publishing the last Farideh novel also seems to fit with this, as they wouldn't do that if they planned to publish their novels via a different company. Rather, they'd tell the author that it would be published at a later date. |
Edited by - Spectralballoons on 29 May 2017 18:54:53 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2017 : 00:44:53
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That doesn't take into account, though, the fact that WotC is well-known for making very poor decisions, and that they've had issues with paying writers fairly for years, going back to when the novel line was going very strong.
WotC is also known for changing plans without telling anyone. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2017 : 05:09:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Spectralballoons
The novels were definetely not selling well, mainly as a result of the incompetence of WoTC's marketing team. Basically, what happened to dragonalance/greyhawk/mystara/ravenloaft/eberron/spelljammer/planescape/etc novels and other fiction.
Do you have any data at all to back that up?
Hard data is hard to come by (no pun intended).
Someone once did some extrapolation based on Amazon ranking and came to the conclusion that the Brimstone novels were selling less than one book a day on Amazon. Certainly not hard data, but evidence in the right direction maybe?
Seems that if you're not Salvatore, your FR books won't sell big numbers.
Personally I hope that WotC at least will release The Devil You Know as a paperback, so that I can complete my physical collection before having to turn the lights off |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
769 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2017 : 17:34:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I suspect the novels are not selling well because they're stupid eBooks. Not real books, although they cost the same. Locked tight, controlled, and full of DRM.
Ummm, what? They still sold printed novels. I'm actually trying to think of any novels they published that were eBook only.....it might have been what? One or two?
Either way, 99% of Realms novels publish were also sold in print form. |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
769 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2017 : 17:41:42
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
With regards to Ed saving the realms im not talking about novels. The realms needs a living breathing world to base novels in and at the moment there isnt one. Build tge world first, add the novels later.
No, this isn't true at all. It only requires a handful of dedicated and talented writers to produce entertaining novels. The world has been developed for over 30 years. There is more than enough material to base new stories on AND to game in as well!
What is really lacking here is money. The owner of the IP has decided that it's not worth their time to devote resources into the novel line.
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2017 : 17:50:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
I'm actually trying to think of any novels they published that were eBook only.....it might have been what? One or two?
6 (if you want to count Cold Steel and Secrets as 4 novels, the total increases to 9)
Shadowbane
Shadowbane: Eye of Justice
Prince of Ravens
Sword of the Gods: Spinner of Lies
Spider and Stone
Cold Steel and Secrets
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
Either way, 99% of Realms novels publish were also sold in print form.
98% if counting CSaS a one novel,
97% if counting CSaS as four novels
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Edited by - Mirtek on 31 May 2017 17:55:24 |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
769 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2017 : 19:19:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
I'm actually trying to think of any novels they published that were eBook only.....it might have been what? One or two?
6 (if you want to count Cold Steel and Secrets as 4 novels, the total increases to 9)
Shadowbane
Shadowbane: Eye of Justice
Prince of Ravens
Sword of the Gods: Spinner of Lies
Spider and Stone
Cold Steel and Secrets
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
Either way, 99% of Realms novels publish were also sold in print form.
98% if counting CSaS a one novel,
97% if counting CSaS as four novels
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2017 : 20:01:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
I'm actually trying to think of any novels they published that were eBook only.....it might have been what? One or two?
6 (if you want to count Cold Steel and Secrets as 4 novels, the total increases to 9)
Shadowbane
Shadowbane: Eye of Justice
Prince of Ravens
Sword of the Gods: Spinner of Lies
Spider and Stone
Cold Steel and Secrets
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
Either way, 99% of Realms novels publish were also sold in print form.
98% if counting CSaS a one novel,
97% if counting CSaS as four novels
Finally my list of published FR novels was useful for something beyond keeping track of what I had yet to read/buy.
Just remembered, I also included the Double Diamond Triangle Saga as 9 novels, depending on whether you count them as 9, 1 or don't count them at all it changes the results ever so slightly :) |
Edited by - Mirtek on 31 May 2017 20:02:26 |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1625 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2017 : 15:14:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
If i'm understanding you guys correctly, you're saying that the Spellplague killed the fiction and the setting, and there was no fix possible. That's a depressing perspective, but that doesn't mean you might not be right. I guess it doesn't matter anyway now that WotC has pulled the plug.
I don't agree with them, I like the 5e realms, I just wish they'd put out a 5e FRCG.
See they built all this excitement for the Sundering, and then barely did anything with it, the Sundering series, a few books by Bob, Erin, Ed, after the Sundering series, a some adventure paths, and the SCAG.
I don't even count Volo's Guide to Monsters as a realms book as it has so little realms content, with Volo himself just adding some posted notes, that I feel that titlecis almost fraudulent.
I think they were barely able to support the setting because they barely had any staff, its why they are tossing the new Mystic and Artificer classes on DMGuild so players while do some of the work of developing the classes, they no longer have the staff to do it.
5e had so much potential as did the Sundering, but its been starved for resources by the bosses, even though the few 5e books they have are best sellers, its not that the books don't sell, including novels, its that D&D is just a shell they keep around in the hopes of getting movie deals.
I wish Piazo or TEGG would make an offer buy the novel and table top rights from Hasbro. |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1288 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2017 : 18:49:31
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| It's so depressing. We were so spoiled in first and second edition drowning in lore with things like the amazing Volo's Guides and now we are in a desert that looks like we'll never get out of... |
Edited by - Seravin on 04 Jun 2017 19:27:53 |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1625 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2017 : 19:41:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
It's so depressing. We wee so spoiled in first an second edition drowning in lore with things like the amazing Volo's Guides and now we are in a desert that looks like we'll never get out of...
Yep, it's frustrating and depressing. |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2017 : 01:09:52
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| What about Ed's group? Wasn't there something about how Ed was gathering a group of Realms authors and experts to put together small articles on lore and things? I've been away from playing for about a year, but didn't they have something planned for releasing on their site? Or for sale? |
"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2017 : 15:15:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Spectralballoons
The novels were definetely not selling well, mainly as a result of the incompetence of WoTC's marketing team. Basically, what happened to dragonalance/greyhawk/mystara/ravenloaft/eberron/spelljammer/planescape/etc novels and other fiction.
Do you have any data at all to back that up?
Hard data is hard to come by (no pun intended).
Someone once did some extrapolation based on Amazon ranking and came to the conclusion that the Brimstone novels were selling less than one book a day on Amazon. Certainly not hard data, but evidence in the right direction maybe?
Seems that if you're not Salvatore, your FR books won't sell big numbers.
Personally I hope that WotC at least will release The Devil You Know as a paperback, so that I can complete my physical collection before having to turn the lights off
I could give you numbers for all chapters branches in Canada from about 6-7 years ago. The problem is, that's only Canada. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2017 : 19:58:50
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| While manga (Japanese graphic novels) is an obsession of mine, I have never been that in to "American" comics, if you will. I wasn't a huge fan of the Cutter comics, but I read them because of the tie-in. I may have to break down and get the comics if it's the only "literature" being provided. Hmmm... |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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KraziJoe
Acolyte
USA
17 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2017 : 21:59:39
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| Personally, they started losing me at the Spell Plague. I prefer to know why things changed and they alluded to what happened, but they felt they didn't need to do more. It's like it because Toril-2. Same people but new powersets etc. Then BAM the Sundering happened trying to revert all they did back to what it was. Now we have nothing...I don't play much D&D so I get my fix through the novels...Not so much anymore...So I am pretty much at a loss as to what is going on. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2017 : 22:03:08
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| I don't play much, either. I primarily read the novels, though I will buy sourcebooks to stay up to date on lore and such. The novels have unfortunately taken a back seat, because they don't bring in as much revenue, and many gamers today want to see gaming products. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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DiscerningDM
Acolyte
USA
6 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2017 : 19:39:21
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It would be a mistake to ignore the D&D team's business model as it evolves, and that it's been a massive success for the game, the hobby, and the Realms. The Realms are best served by a thriving IP holder, producing popular and financially successful realms books.
Initially for 5e, they were at 2 books a year, adventures only, and now we are at 2 adventures a year, plus a lore book. We are seeing increased tempo of game and hobby releases from wotc. The last two FR adventures, specially Storm King's Thunder, contained a lot of delicious lore, and the SCAG went a lot farther than the sword coast.
As wotc tests what the market will bear, I hope the novels come back as well. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2017 : 19:54:54
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quote:
Originally posted by KraziJoe
Personally, they started losing me at the Spell Plague. I prefer to know why things changed and they alluded to what happened, but they felt they didn't need to do more. It's like it because Toril-2. Same people but new powersets etc. Then BAM the Sundering happened trying to revert all they did back to what it was. Now we have nothing...I don't play much D&D so I get my fix through the novels...Not so much anymore...So I am pretty much at a loss as to what is going on.
Well, there's not much to understand about what's going on, as most events were just engineered to revert some of the 3e and 4e changes. They pressed the rest button. Ao quite literally did that. A lot was undone, some authors gave explanations (or at least confirmations) of what and who was back. Everything concerning the gods is back to pre ToT, with the exception that "new deities" like Cyric are still there. As for NPCs, many surived or were resurrected, others were left in the dust (it seemed rather arbitray to me, tbh), while most of the new ones remained. All the Shades are gone as well (although some low ranking ones do remain). As for the lands, everything is mostly back to how it was before the end of 3e, with the exception that the Dragonborn still hold some land (and some elves have decided to remain in the fallen Myth Drannor with the Tree of Souls). That's it. Perhaps this might help:http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Second_Sundering |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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CylverSaber
Seeker
95 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2017 : 04:32:58
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I think we've got to stop the denial (Ed is guaranteed a novel a year, it's only a temporary hiatus, WotC would never give up such a profitable venture, they're just waiting to license the novels, etc) and admit what's been obvious for some time now; they have no plans to bring back the novels.
The only way that has even a chance of changing is if fans mobilize, start writing letters, circulating petitions, launching social media campaigns, being vocal at conventions, and so forth.
Or we could say "Nah, it won't make any difference" and do nothing at all. That's an option too. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2017 : 08:07:33
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quote:
Originally posted by CylverSaber
The only way that has even a chance of changing is if fans mobilize, start writing letters, circulating petitions, launching social media campaigns, being vocal at conventions, and so forth.
Or we could say "Nah, it won't make any difference" and do nothing at all. That's an option too.
WotC once had a thriving forum filled with such letters and petitions and campaigns, most fizzled but some had traction and sporadically gained great momentum. A few of these had explicit (if not active) support from recognized FR authors.
But no novels.
The second approach is far more popular. WotC has demonstrated that it doesn't care, so - increasingly - WotC's fans demonstrate that they don't care.
Still no novels.
I've seen (and even read) a few unofficial FR novels online. An odd and even mix ...
Some people (fans) write utter trash and try to pass it off as published FR canon. One novel reappears over and over again almost seasonally. One author keeps appending his awful novel onto wiki lists of published FR novels, along with links to his site (where you can purchase the full ebook version).
Other people (fans) genuinely attempt to write a real bona-fide genuine Realms novel (or three). Some attempts are poor, most are good, a couple have been exceptional (on par with the better end of published Realms novels).
I used to rat these folks out. But "Nah, Wizbro can do their own dirty work". Perhaps that alone is a sad commentary: the learned apathy of a cynical fan, unwilling to lift a finger for Wizbro's Realms. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Lamora
Seeker
USA
81 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2017 : 23:00:36
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| @Ayrik: You want to give a link for those good and especially the exceptional fan novels? Most of the Realms fanfiction (lets be honest, its basically a Realms story considering the setting lets you just plop adventurers anywhere) I have seen has been mediocre. But something exceptional would be a nice read. Honestly right now there is one of the best Realms stories I have read being updated daily and I include the actual books, so I would be very happy if you can point me to some new ones. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2017 : 00:41:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
Originally posted by CylverSaber
The only way that has even a chance of changing is if fans mobilize, start writing letters, circulating petitions, launching social media campaigns, being vocal at conventions, and so forth.
Or we could say "Nah, it won't make any difference" and do nothing at all. That's an option too.
WotC once had a thriving forum filled with such letters and petitions and campaigns, most fizzled but some had traction and sporadically gained great momentum. A few of these had explicit (if not active) support from recognized FR authors.
There was once, when I was still active on the WotC forums, that I suggested WotC could do a survey to find out what we wanted.
A WotC staffer replied that they weren't interested in that; they had their own ways of deciding what we wanted.
This was long before 4E was even being (secretly) playtested -- but I've never forgotten that "no, we'll tell you want you want" attitude. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2017 : 08:42:32
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@Lamora
Sorry, I don't have these links anymore. And, as I said above, I wouldn't post them anyways because I'm not interested in doing WotC's dirty work for them. But these novels can always be found after some persistent googling for "unpublished|unofficial forgotten realms story|novel" and the like.
@Wooly
I saw much the same thing on the forum. A new topic or poll which quickly generated a huge rush of "yes, please, we want that!" responses. Then a comment from WotC saying "no, we've decided not to do that, there's no market". Ignored and rolled over by subsequent waves of blissfully unaware "we want that!" without result. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 29 Jun 2017 08:43:36 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2017 : 16:09:19
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| That seems counterintuitive to me lol. A bunch of people saying they want it, then WotC claiming there is no market? Clearly, there is. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2017 : 06:22:40
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| Limiting your product line, halting sales of novels, creating your own biggest competitor, and nuking your flagship setting (over and over again) all seem counterintuitive too, lol. Frequently informing your most avid customers that you'll decide what they want and that they'd better like it or else ... well, that goes beyond counterintuitive into raw stupidity, nobody creates/retains loyal friends by being arrogant and intolerant and selfish, lol ... but see where WotC has been and where they are now and you might better understand the path they travelled. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Madpig
Learned Scribe
Finland
148 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2017 : 06:24:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
@Lamora
Sorry, I don't have these links anymore. And, as I said above, I wouldn't post them anyways because I'm not interested in doing WotC's dirty work for them. But these novels can always be found after some persistent googling for "unpublished|unofficial forgotten realms story|novel" and the like.
@Wooly
I saw much the same thing on the forum. A new topic or poll which quickly generated a huge rush of "yes, please, we want that!" responses. Then a comment from WotC saying "no, we've decided not to do that, there's no market". Ignored and rolled over by subsequent waves of blissfully unaware "we want that!" without result.
As today is 10th aniversary of Iphone, I have one quote from Jobbs: Do not ask what people want, bring something so spectacular that people dont even know they want it. BUT, that often as not missfires really badly, as in case of Wotc/Hasbro. |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2017 : 02:03:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Limiting your product line, halting sales of novels, creating your own biggest competitor, and nuking your flagship setting (over and over again) all seem counterintuitive too, lol. Frequently informing your most avid customers that you'll decide what they want and that they'd better like it or else ... well, that goes beyond counterintuitive into raw stupidity, nobody creates/retains loyal friends by being arrogant and intolerant and selfish, lol ... but see where WotC has been and where they are now and you might better understand the path they travelled.
It had a very niche fanbase to begin with, but a powerful one. They wanted to go mainstream with it and failed and in doing so had nuked the old school fanbase, leaving them with only us, the hangers on.
The biggest problem tabletop game worlds face in today's world is it has largely been replaced by online MMORPG's and WOTC never really put their heart and soul into making a good one of that when they had the chance. It was disheartening 10 years back to see the numbers from chapters canada when World of Warcraft books started outselling forgotten realms. But they properly attracted the new school fanbase, and got a big enough fanbase that the more hardcore live and breathe RPGers started buying those books instead |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2017 : 07:38:29
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I sometimes think that D&D would now be dominating all facets of "gaming" as well as offshooting into books, movies etc, if only it had devoted a huge amount of resources to building a brilliant MMORPG.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2017 : 10:07:08
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I sometimes think that D&D would now be dominating all facets of "gaming" as well as offshooting into books, movies etc, if only it had devoted a huge amount of resources to building a brilliant MMORPG.
-- George Krashos
I think they could have done very, very well if they'd've developed and pushed the virtual gaming table, myself. The biggest advantages MMOs have is that you can play any time, for as long or as little time as you want, using a tool you've already got that does a lot of other stuff. If WotC had developed a good virtual gaming table, they could have given D&D those same advantages, and that would have been huge.
I know there are VTTs out there, but none are as big as they would be if WotC had slapped their name on it and aggressively pushed it as an alternative to trying to find and coordinate with local people. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2017 : 18:53:31
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The sad thing is that the 4e virtual table (the 2D version WotC developed after the 3D project was cancelled) was really good. The DDI integration was smooth and I played quite a few LFR adventures on it during the beta.
Unfortunately they never broadcasted the fact that all DDI users actually had beta access and instead of moving the stable version they finally had from beta to release, they out of the blue the cancelled it.
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
a brilliant MMORPG.
Well, the 'brilliant' is the tricky part. Huge brands tried, hundred of millions have been sunk into various projects, and the most 'successful' scrape by as free to play, while the majority are long since cancelled.
And WoW is still the big elephant in the room, easily affording losing more player than most would-be WoW-killers had during their peaks. |
Edited by - Mirtek on 05 Jul 2017 18:59:18 |
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Some good news, amidst all this bleakness.
