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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Mar 2017 : 15:27:24
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So, in a post in another thread, I once again saw the name "Timesus, the black star"... and as we have discussed before the ideas of Escalthar "the Black Star" in the formation of Thay, and the old grey box reference to a which screaming "Dove Smashed the Black Star".... I just figured I'd do another googling. It isn't my intention to link Escalthar and Timesus. I still like the idea that the artifact beneath Thay was something linked to Azuth and that Escalthar was also linked to Azuth, along with the idea that Velsharoon was involved with it. HOWEVER, in reading about Timesus, I see that in essence he was a giant meteorite that was a primordial. That made me wonder, is the King Killer Star that the elves used to create the dracorage actually some kind of primordial? If it were, what would you do with it? How would you use it to make history just that much more interesting?
From 4e Death's Reach page 18
The primordial Timesus, the Black Star, has been represented in myth and legend as an avenging meteorite that smote foes by smashing down from the sky like a hammer of black stone. In truth, the flaming black rock that walked like a man could launch itself great distances to make devastating attacks. In some of its battles against the gods,
fragments of Timesus's primordial form splintered and manifested into terrible creatures that became known as the blackstar host. The Host followed Timesus as faithful warriors, and those not destroyed in the Dawn War were imprisoned along with the Black Star.
For those interested, bellow's the reference from the OGB and some of the threads where we'd discussed this stuff
(Ches, Year of the Worm, 1356 DR)
"Marchayn of Archendale, the feared "Mad Witch" of the Thunder Peaks has been found in her citadel, mindless and drooling, amidst chaos. All about her lay the dead bodies of the orcs (and worse) that served her, and much of her tower is now a fire-blackened shell. The herdsman who found her reported to merchants of Arabel that Marchayn (who soon died and whose body was burned by the herdsman) repeated endlessly "Dove! Dove! Smashed the Black Star... Dove!"
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=18318&whichpage=1
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19411
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2017 : 15:45:22
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| Oh, POSSIBLY, in looking at this, we accept the idea of two "black star" references (the one being Escalthar, Azuth, and the artifact beneath Thay...... the other being something that Dove smashed). I could see Timesus, the Black Star, having some of his black star host in the Thunder Peaks. I could see Marchayn "the Mad Witch of the Thunder Peaks" as actually having been a warlock who had gone to Timesus for power. Maybe she'd been given the ability to call upon some of the black star host somehow via a ritual. I can also see Dove showing up and "smashing" said "black rock golem-like beings". |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2017 : 15:59:05
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Beats me there. As the dracorage wasn't a thing in 4e, there are no mentions about it in 4e materials beyond historical bits. So, we don't know if that star was really a primordial, a Far Realm's being (in 4e, most stars were Far Realm's beings), or just something the elves made up.
As for Timesus, if we try to reconcile 4e lore with former editions' lore, by the time the elves created the dracorage mythal Timesus was already sealed within Death's Reach. So, IHMO, the King-Killer Star and Timesus are unrelated, even if the star is a primordial. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 04 Mar 2017 16:00:01 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2017 : 17:59:00
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I don't care for it 'as' Zotha, but how about the 'weapon' used to smash Zotha?
Primordials are basically just vast 'engines of destruction', or rather, balls of energy of an insane magnitude. Slam that into a moon, no more moon.
Cast a High Magic ritual on it (using its own energy to empower it) and you have a Dracorage Mythal.
Funny how Realmspace never mentioned any of these cosmic entities/heavenly bodies. 
P.S. - and although this probably belongs in one of the other 'theory' threads, I just had a thought. It seems that a fair number of these primordials are somnambulant (unconscious, for whatever reason). Mostly we've just brushed that aside as 'something that Ao did', or "the gods". But what if its more than that? (read: lets make this more interesting!)
What if these Uber-Elementals are similar to regular elementals, just extremely more powerful? In other words, what if they were made from 'The Planestuff' of that First World? That ties them to a specific piece of geography (similar to how a lot of Fey are 'anchored'). And what if, to imprison them, all one need do is 'imprison' that piece of geography they originated from? So when the First World was shattered (I'm still not 100% it was the same event as FR's Sundering), a lot of the pieces were gathered up to make up the spheres, and also parts of the Great Wheel (mostly the Outlands, but maybe others). But some may have just been allowed to be 'free floaters', like perhaps this Timesus, and Atropus. Others may have been gathered up and locked-away in the Astral ("out-of-sync" with normal space-time), and thats how/why Ao created Abeir. It could even be they ARE those pieces, and what we usually 'see' of a primordial is an avatar, of sorts (I'm thinking Celestial Titans are actually primordial avatars, and some have simply been denied access to their more powerful, 'true' state). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Mar 2017 18:02:32 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2017 : 19:22:20
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In my homebrew musings, I've theorized that 'Fey Magic' (which is what 'Elven High Magic' is based upon... as is some Imaskari magic) is so powerful because it manipulates the timestream to get results. Basically, they have managed to harness 'The Butterfly Affect'. This is how they created Evermeet - They 'tapped into' the Sundering and made it form during that. But just like The Butterfly Affect, it also caused Tintageer to be destroyed (because another very primal rule of magic is "a sacrifice must be made - you cannot create something from nothing"). In science, we call that the Law of Conservation of Mass. There has to be 'an exchange' (we even see the Saurial Wizard use such magic to travel to Toril - he swapped places with Elminster).
So what if the Elves creating the Dracorage Mythal on the King-Killer star somehow affected events in the distant past. For example, using my idea above, what if they needed something that was 'anathema to dragons' - something that would "incite a primal rage" within them. The High Magic Ritual reaches back in time, nudges a meteor (Timesus?), and it smacks into Zotha, destroying it - an event that would fill dragons with rage.
We could even spin the whole War of Light & Darkness between Shar and Selūne as a complete misunderstanding.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Mar 2017 14:06:33 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2017 : 14:04:46
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I thiught it added irony that the elves used a chunk of the rock that supposedly slew asgoroth as part of the mythap that brought about the downfall of his children.
And the crystal nature of zotha could also explain why the king kilker star appeared as red in the sky (i think, i never read the novels)
Hmmm, I'm liking Markustay's take more.... think more that this was part of the weapon (perhaps one of the "breaths of Asgoroth") used to destroy Zotha (let's call him the ice king for now, since it was a "ice moon"/"crystal sun"), but that it had ties to Asgoroth (some of Asgoroth's essence). The elves "twist" this essence tied to draconic creation and it drives dragon's mad.
That in an of itself makes this a "component" of Asgoroth's reforming to a degree, but there may be dozens of such. We don't know how many heads Asgoroth had, and the various "breaths of Asgoroth" might be in different forms. For instance, this one is a flaming meteorite possibly due to its ties to elemental fire or magma. A "breath" related to poison,lightning, thunder, cold, force, necrotic, radiant energies or even such things as disease, lethargy, confusion, etc... (because who knows WHAT all breaths Asgoroth had nor how many heads) might all appear as different things. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2017 : 14:11:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Beats me there. As the dracorage wasn't a thing in 4e, there are no mentions about it in 4e materials beyond historical bits. So, we don't know if that star was really a primordial, a Far Realm's being (in 4e, most stars were Far Realm's beings), or just something the elves made up.
As for Timesus, if we try to reconcile 4e lore with former editions' lore, by the time the elves created the dracorage mythal Timesus was already sealed within Death's Reach. So, IHMO, the King-Killer Star and Timesus are unrelated, even if the star is a primordial.
Oh, yeah, I don't think Timesus and the King-Killer are related. I do kind of like the idea though that Timesus may have essentially been working like a vestige for binders while he was bound. The whole thing where you perform a ritual with a seal and you get this visual effect afterward.... his could be to somehow send via this "secret ritual able to extend even to places where vestiges exist" to send out a small portion of his essence as a black star host (basically, from what I read in Death's Reach a big black basalt looking golem). Maybe conjurers could summon such as well as a variation on the normal summon elemental effects. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2017 : 14:17:28
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Im not entirely sure abiut all elven magics going back and forth in time. Not based on only one of them being stated as doing so (evermeet).
One thing that gets me thinking is why is it called the parwiccian cycle. What does that mean. I wonder do George or Eric know
Not 'all' - just the 'Elven High magic'. Thats when they use Fey magic (it uses a casting circle, as do most primal magics - circles are important in nature, and to the Fey). Except for raising mythals (and even that is debatable), in every instance where the used 'High Magic Rituals', it ended in disaster (with unforeseen results). Think of it as an 'unlimited wish' that can actually alter past events. ie., "I wish these humans would just go away!", result: Tidal Wave. Their magic affects probabilities, and time is not an obstacle for the magic to achieve its results. I even think the Seldarine can't control the results (for example, I don't think they actually meant for Drow to be created).
As for the 'Parwiccian' thing, I think it was just a cool-sounding name to stick in the front of that, nothing more.
You know what I find odd? That "Dwarves and Elves" both have stories of the Giant/Dragon war recorded*... yet dwarves weren't even around at that time.
Or were they?
*Giantcraft |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Mar 2017 14:17:44 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2017 : 16:31:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Im not entirely sure abiut all elven magics going back and forth in time. Not based on only one of them being stated as doing so (evermeet).
One thing that gets me thinking is why is it called the parwiccian cycle. What does that mean. I wonder do George or Eric know
Not 'all' - just the 'Elven High magic'. Thats when they use Fey magic (it uses a casting circle, as do most primal magics - circles are important in nature, and to the Fey). Except for raising mythals (and even that is debatable), in every instance where the used 'High Magic Rituals', it ended in disaster (with unforeseen results). Think of it as an 'unlimited wish' that can actually alter past events. ie., "I wish these humans would just go away!", result: Tidal Wave. Their magic affects probabilities, and time is not an obstacle for the magic to achieve its results. I even think the Seldarine can't control the results (for example, I don't think they actually meant for Drow to be created).
I wouldn't say in every instance... We have a lot of High Magic rituals that were relatively limited in scope, sometimes even to one individual.
Sure, it's blown up in their faces more than once when they tried the really big stuff, but I think that was more the sheer scope of what they were doing than the use of High Magic. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2017 : 21:04:57
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I really like the idea about Dracorage making dragons mad because it forces them to do something they cannot accomplish...
However I do not like idea of elven time magic at all. It all started because some elven scholars said that Sundering went back and forth in time to create Evermeet. How would he know if it changed history? It is also very powerful tool as we can see in some other pieces of fiction literature/films and I do not think it fits into the Realms well as there are a lot of questions it prompt. I believe that elves have normal magic like all other and as most of those huge events that happened they are largely exagerated later in legends. Drow were cursed by gods, Evermeet only created tsunami as they forcefuly parted the ocean, Imaskari barrier was only around their land not Toril, Dracorage was only over most of Faerun. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2017 : 20:02:37
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
So, in a post in another thread, I once again saw the name "Timesus, the black star"... and as we have discussed before the ideas of Escalthar "the Black Star" in the formation of Thay, and the old grey box reference to a which screaming "Dove Smashed the Black Star".... [...] HOWEVER, in reading about Timesus, I see that in essence he was a giant meteorite that was a primordial. That made me wonder, is the King Killer Star that the elves used to create the dracorage actually some kind of primordial?
Hmm... But how the Moonstars are involved in this? |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2017 : 13:23:13
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
So, in a post in another thread, I once again saw the name "Timesus, the black star"... and as we have discussed before the ideas of Escalthar "the Black Star" in the formation of Thay, and the old grey box reference to a which screaming "Dove Smashed the Black Star".... [...] HOWEVER, in reading about Timesus, I see that in essence he was a giant meteorite that was a primordial. That made me wonder, is the King Killer Star that the elves used to create the dracorage actually some kind of primordial?
Hmm... But how the Moonstars are involved in this?
The moonstars, when they say the words "Khelben Arunsun... ACTIVATE!!" They form a giant primordial moon that can shoot out from the globe to confront the approaching form of Atropus. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2017 : 20:36:18
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Now you've got me thinking about the Chosen (of Mystra) yelling, "Chosen, assemble!"
And they form this giant, magical construct - Elminster is the head, Khelben the body, the Simbul and Alustriel the arms, etc
And then Szass Tam throws down his staff and yells, "Make my undead grow!" 
"Go go Chosen-Rangers!" |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 09 Mar 2017 20:36:48 |
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Elren_Wolfsbane
Learned Scribe
USA
111 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2018 : 14:04:14
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| Can anyone give me an estimated time when the King killer star shows up. I've try to look up some of the lore and all I could pull together is that it might be around a thousand years, but I am unsure. Thank you |
Aa' lasser en`coialle n`natula brown.
(May the leaves of your life tree never turn brown)
-Elren Wolfsbane |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2018 : 17:25:30
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| Is there any benefit to making it sentient? |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2018 : 19:23:33
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I forgot all about this thread, and its premise. Just yesterday I read something in Evermeet, island of Elves that pertained to the 'coming of the star', and how Malar was thrilled by it. Funny how the same things just keep going round'N'round, eh?
We have to assume Telos was NOT on Abeir - that he was somehow physically imprisoned in Realmspace itself. Now I'm starting to rethink the Tears of Selūne, and other large, astronomical 'debris'. What if those are 'cages'? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Jan 2018 19:24:06 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2018 : 19:31:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Now I'm starting to rethink the Tears of Selūne, and other large, astronomical 'debris'. What if those are 'cages'?
I would say that's unlikely, at least for the Tears, for two reasons: One is that the Tears are known to have simply popped into existence, all at once -- one night they weren't there, and the next night, people looking up at the right time saw their sudden appearance.
The other reason is that the Sojourner pulled one out of orbit and let it crash into Toril (something I find hugely problematic, by itself). I should think that if the Tears were prisons, not only would there have been precautions against anyone messing with them, there would have also been an immediate reaction to Vhostym messing with them.
Sure, the gods wouldn't have expected someone to pull a moonlet out of orbit -- but they're also not going to leave a prison entirely unwatched and with no protections on it at all. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Elren_Wolfsbane
Learned Scribe
USA
111 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2018 : 23:08:13
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| I was listing to dragon talk and they were talking about dragons of the realms. The king-killer star was brought up, and I may try to incorporated into my game. I have an elf from evermeet, so I'm wondering if I can use that with her back story. I will have to go find The lore |
Aa' lasser en`coialle n`natula brown.
(May the leaves of your life tree never turn brown)
-Elren Wolfsbane |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2018 : 23:28:42
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Can you link me to that specific dragontalk, my good fellow scribe?
BTW, you can check most of the updated lore on the King-Killer Star in Dragons of Faerūn.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Now I'm starting to rethink the Tears of Selūne, and other large, astronomical 'debris'. What if those are 'cages'?
I would say that's unlikely, at least for the Tears, for two reasons: One is that the Tears are known to have simply popped into existence, all at once -- one night they weren't there, and the next night, people looking up at the right time saw their sudden appearance.
Weren't the Tears created by the dragon cannon laser? I remember that is in the Grand History. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 05 Jan 2018 23:31:36 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2018 : 00:37:59
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What was the cannon aiming out, that it created those? I find a lot of that problematical.
@Wooly - considering even half the stuff that has gone on in FR, I wouldn't really expect anyone to be 'watching the fort', EVER.
"Hey.. did anyone see my Tablets of Fate? I could have sworn I left them right here..."
Though, I don't like that idea for the Tears themselves, but for other astronomical phenomena, it could work. Also, I am still toying with a lot of this, like my latest idea that the primordials were split and the two halves kept in/on the separate worlds. That means the 'body of Telos' may have been in the Galena Mountains (may even BE the Galenas), but his 'intellect' (essence, soul, whatever) 'fell to earth' when the Spellplague hit. Of course, it could just be it was Abeir-space, and than it transferred to Realmspace, and was immediately pulled back to its body, which is why it came crashing down in Vaasa. So my assumption it was floating around in Toril's vicinity could be entirely wrong.
Hmmmmm... so what if a lot of the material removed from Toril to create Abeir was done so because of all the added mass/volume from all the primordial corpses laying around? Maybe Toril isn't so much a prison, as it it is a giant tomb/ cemetery. Here I thought the Prime Material was really just the rotting corpse of Ymir, and it turns out dead titans were right under our feet the whole time.
"God's Theater" indeed.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 06 Jan 2018 00:49:26 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2018 : 01:29:37
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| The dragons were aiming at the King-killer Star (a comet bound to the dracorage mythal), but they hit the moon instead. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2018 : 03:20:41
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THAT sounds REALY dumb.
No wonder Selūne is crying. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2018 : 05:11:29
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Well, is understandable. The dragons were desperate and in a fit of madness because of the dracorage (elven magic that turned them into beings controlled by rage). So, when they shot, under the influence of madness and desperation, I guess that their aim wasn't as accurate as desired. They didn't tried a second time, though, so I guess they were aware of their folly.
Then again, you can't blame someone of doing stupid things out of desperation, when they are on the ropes. That was their last ditch effort to finish the Rage, a curse that made them kill each other and destroy their fortress and stuff. According to the Grand History, the draconic civilization was on the brink of annihilation. They wanted to save their culture and failed. Blame the elves (but, on the other hand, this saved Toril of being Abeir 2.0).
For the idea itself, well... that was in the Grand History. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 06 Jan 2018 05:18:58 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2018 : 08:04:35
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I'm afraid I'll have to counter that conclusion with you own words Zeromaru.
"you can't blame someone of doing stupid things out of desperation, when they are on the ropes"
Clearly you cannot blame the elves because the creation of the Dracorage Mythal was THEIR last ditch effort to stop being eaten by the oh-so-nice dragon-lords. |
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Elren_Wolfsbane
Learned Scribe
USA
111 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2018 : 13:51:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Can you link me to that specific dragontalk, my good fellow scribe?
BTW, you can check most of the updated lore on the King-Killer Star in Dragons of Faerūn.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Now I'm starting to rethink the Tears of Selūne, and other large, astronomical 'debris'. What if those are 'cages'?
I would say that's unlikely, at least for the Tears, for two reasons: One is that the Tears are known to have simply popped into existence, all at once -- one night they weren't there, and the next night, people looking up at the right time saw their sudden appearance.
Weren't the Tears created by the dragon cannon laser? I remember that is in the Grand History.
Yeah, here's the link. Its a good episode
http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/xanathars-lost-notes-everything-else |
Aa' lasser en`coialle n`natula brown.
(May the leaves of your life tree never turn brown)
-Elren Wolfsbane |
Edited by - Elren_Wolfsbane on 06 Jan 2018 13:52:33 |
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Is the King Killer Star a Primordial?
