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BadCatMan
Senior Scribe
Australia
401 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Jun 2017 : 16:58:32
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I don't know much about Spelljammer. I tend to treat spelljammers as like UFOs really. :)
The simplest patch might be that there's two Chunmings, one in the north, one in the south. Or that the Kara-Tur sections of Realmspace are three centuries out of date, or that spacers aren't aware of / don't care about the distinction.
Ah, nope, it's post-1357: An Ching Wang in Realmspace also appears in the KTCS (page 35), from the Shou Lung town of Cham Fau. Only Realmspace renames her boyfriend from Chien Jang Liang to Yu Fu Tieh merging the names of two unrelated NPCs on the same page, Yu Fu Fang and Hu Tieh. That's an amazing fail in basic reading.  (Though, to be fair, the KTCS misnames An Ching Wang as An Ching Hua on the same page, changing her family name.)
With that kind of sloppiness, and renaming Faerun to Heartland, the spelljammer port could be in any city in Shou Lung, and not in Chunming at all. Cham Fau is a fair choice: it's sufficiently closely associated and similarly named for our cross-eyed designer, and is the most well-detailed settlement in the Kara-Tur setting, being its adventure town. |
BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
Scientific technical editor
Head DM of the Realms of Adventure play-by-post community
Administrator of the Forgotten Realms Wiki |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2017 : 17:43:35
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I would say that the easiest fix is that Realmspace is a sort of travelogue written by someone who, for whatever reason, relied entirely on others for the information about Toril and Selūne.
As my username indicates, I'm a huge fan of Spelljammer. It's my first love of D&D settings.
But Realmspace has wonky info about Toril, and Krynnspace had wonky info about Krynn... I don't know enough about Oerth to know if Greyspace's info was wonky, but we have 2 cases out of three where there is a conflict between Spelljammer lore about a world and the setting info about that world. Thus, I tend to discount whatever Spelljammer lore exists for a campaign setting world. Other planets in the system, we have no conflict. But the main campaign worlds? No, I stick with material explicitly written for them. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 09 Jun 2017 22:48:03 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2017 : 22:22:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
A fantastic Kara-Tur thread has now evolved into a fantastic Spelljammer thread. This is what good lore nuggets do--spur discussions that take the reader to unexpected places. Keep up the good work folks!
I gotta say Brian.... when I started this thread, I indeed did not expect it to go here. However, I've probably learned more on Kara-Tur and T'u Lung this last month discussing this than ever before, and it really makes me want to read more. Thank you. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2017 : 22:56:04
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quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan
I don't know much about Spelljammer. I tend to treat spelljammers as like UFOs really. :)
The simplest patch might be that there's two Chunmings, one in the north, one in the south. Or that the Kara-Tur sections of Realmspace are three centuries out of date, or that spacers aren't aware of / don't care about the distinction.
Ah, nope, it's post-1357: An Ching Wang in Realmspace also appears in the KTCS (page 35), from the Shou Lung town of Cham Fau. Only Realmspace renames her boyfriend from Chien Jang Liang to Yu Fu Tieh merging the names of two unrelated NPCs on the same page, Yu Fu Fang and Hu Tieh. That's an amazing fail in basic reading. (Though, to be fair, the KTCS misnames An Ching Wang as An Ching Hua on the same page, changing her family name.)
With that kind of sloppiness, and renaming Faerun to Heartland, the spelljammer port could be in any city in Shou Lung, and not in Chunming at all. Cham Fau is a fair choice: it's sufficiently closely associated and similarly named for our cross-eyed designer, and is the most well-detailed settlement in the Kara-Tur setting, being its adventure town.
I had thought about doing something like that too (two Chunmings), but yeah, it doesn't fit well. However, I do like the idea of Shou Lung having its own city. Maybe make both? Have T'u Lung offering docking for spelljammers (and other flying ships), but the Arcane won't sell them a helm..... Wa and Shou Lung snickering at the T'u Lung emperor for not being able to make an aerial navy.
I don't like cham fau though because it is so landbound.
What about the city of Karatin? Its on the ocean. Its people are known as the sealords and their men are known for going on long voyages. Its kind of isolated and surrounded by woods, so ships could come and go and it might be a secret of this province that they have spelljammers. Of course, the emperor knows, but he feels no need to tell the rest of his provinces. Maybe here they require all flying ships to follow the more normal rules and land and sail in. Maybe they require them to declare themselves as spelljammers on their own and pay the appropriate simple docking fee.... and if you break this simple measure of honest trade, they will seize your ship's helm in the name of the emperor (for you are obviously spies in advance of an invasion).
Below from Kara-Tur campaign setting
Hai Yuan (The Maritime Provinces)
The Land: Moving southwest from the upper Hungtse, the land turns from river basin to dense jungle and swamp, ending in a brackish tidal area at the sea. The many inlets, coves and heavy foliage make this area nearly impossible to farm, but provide excellent cover for pirates, smugglers and other brigands, who still inhabit this area today.
History: These lands were originally known as the Karatin Provinces, and indeed, the capital city of the province is still named Karatin. However, at the the time of the Great Pirate Lords, this region was mostly swamp and jungle. By the command of the first Emperor Chin of the Hai Dynasty, the region around the city of Karatin was drained and diked, making it into a fertile basin. In honor of this achievement, the province was named Hai Yuan (the Maritime Provinces).
The People: The Hai are an adventurous race, but also arrogant, stubborn, and loud in bearing. They are also the most self assured of all the Shou, and seem to flaunt it with their incredible audacity. A Hai will attempt almost any feat, simply because he believes that as a superior man, he will obviously succeed. They are sea traders and occasional pirates, whose houses are built on stilts to protect them from floods, and whose ships are the fleetest of all the Empire. They rarely eat meat, preferring fish, and have learned the dishes of sushi and sashimi (two types of raw fish, one with pickled rice) from the Kozakurans. As a counterpart to the ethereally beautiful women of Sheng Ti, the Hai are said to produce the handsomest men in all the Empire.
And they know it.
Cities or Places of Note: Karatin, the largest city, is claimed by the Hai to be the home of the legendary Sea Lords of Karatin. Also on the coast is Taoshin, a large seaport city with trade to the east. Above the drained ground is Keelung, a high plateau city famed for its tea and extremely fine silks. Shansin, a heavily fortified city, sits on the T#146;u Lung border as does Meoling.
Both are known for plots and intrigues. In the ruins and almost lost is Shou Yang, a deserted jungle city, once terrorized by the Black Leopard Cultists.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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BadCatMan
Senior Scribe
Australia
401 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2017 : 03:22:46
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Sounds good. :)
More evidence for the spelljammer port being misplaced: the others are in Waterdeep, Calimport, and Iiso, all major trade-port cities in their respective settings, while Chunming is only ever mentioned in passing in the KTCS and we otherwise know nothing about the place.
I had another idea on Chunming though, perhaps fitting with Sleyvas's earlier idea. In our world, North Korea and South Korea jointly operated some industries on the border, in the Kaesong Industrial Region, despite being politically at war, because it was advantageous to the both of them. Similarly, despite often being at war, perhaps Shou Lung and T'u Lung have a special treaty for joint use of the Chunming spelljammer port (which used to be a part of Shou Lung before the empire split)?
This could explain the tight economic and political controls over the place, and spelljamming may be both well known inside the enclave (which spelljamming crews only ever see the inside of), but a national secret outside. Realmspace says An Ching Wang's boyfriend crippled Master Wang Ho to prevent him dishonouring Shou Lung by taking kensai training to space perhaps this would be in violation of a treaty?
Hence the port could be a Shou Lungrun enclave outside the city. Shou Lung provides the spelljamming expertise and management, while T'u Lung maybe provides labour and services, and both profit and get to exert political influence over each other and over the skies. Similarly, it's a neutral site for meetings and full of much intrigue between the two rival empires and space-borne powers, with repeated shut-downs when things get tense. |
BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
Scientific technical editor
Head DM of the Realms of Adventure play-by-post community
Administrator of the Forgotten Realms Wiki |
Edited by - BadCatMan on 10 Jun 2017 03:24:02 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2017 : 03:31:47
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quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan
Sounds good. :)
More evidence for the spelljammer port being misplaced: the others are in Waterdeep, Calimport, and Iiso, all major trade-port cities in their respective settings, while Chunming is only ever mentioned in passing in the KTCS and we otherwise know nothing about the place.
I had another idea on Chunming though, perhaps fitting with Sleyvas's earlier idea. In our world, North Korea and South Korea jointly operated some industries on the border, in the Kaesong Industrial Region, despite being politically at war, because it was advantageous to the both of them. Similarly, despite often being at war, perhaps Shou Lung and T'u Lung have a special treaty for joint use of the Chunming spelljammer port (which used to be a part of Shou Lung before the empire split)?
This could explain the tight economic and political controls over the place, and spelljamming may be both well known inside the enclave (which spelljamming crews only ever see the inside of), but a national secret outside. Realmspace says An Ching Wang's boyfriend crippled Master Wang Ho to prevent him dishonouring Shou Lung by taking kensai training to space perhaps this would be in violation of a treaty?
Hence the port could be a Shou Lungrun enclave outside the city. Shou Lung provides the spelljamming expertise and management, while T'u Lung maybe provides labour and services, and both profit and get to exert political influence over each other and over the skies. Similarly, it's a neutral site for meetings and full of much intrigue between the two rival empires and space-borne powers, with repeated shut-downs when things get tense.
I like this idea... it becomes something of an Shou embassy of sorts. In fact, it might act as such as well. It keeps foreign spelljammers outside of Shou territory, where they could possibly be a threat. Meanwhile, it gives T'u Lung access to some of the trade that they'd be able to do had they their own spelljammers, but probably at exorbitant price increases. The question becomes, what exactly are spelljammers bringing in that can't be gotten locally for cheaper? Oh wait, I already know that.... space-bred spaham... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 10 Jun 2017 03:36:20 |
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see
Learned Scribe
235 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2017 : 04:00:31
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People who do deals with beholders and mind flayers and scro are unlikely to find T'u Lung objectionable on ethical grounds. My personal interpretation would be that the T'u Lung are too disunited a country to be able to manage a serious space program. 100,000+ gp per spelljamming helm makes any sort of effort expensive, and the obvious alternative is spending that on something that can protect you from noble factions more cost-efficiently.
Chunming's local notable (Shin So Tang, administrator of the Shin district in Ausa province) might well be the one responsible for it being a spelljammer port, seeking wealth from exotic trade to help him in his continual plotting for the "downfall of the usurping Wai family" that currently rules T'u Lung. Perhaps he's even trying to make contacts with mercenary spelljammers to support his "very powerful" faction, in order to attempt a coup or civil war backed by flying ships. The taxes and fees are cheap because Shin So Tang knows if he was obviously filling his coffers directly (instead of through some trading houses he secretly controls), other T'u nobles would seek to get in on the trade, or ban him from it; he's playing a subtle game where they dismiss his decision to invite outlandish foreign barbarians into the city as a senseless eccentricity. Instead, his fair fees and reasonable polices make the city a favored stop for spelljammers on the surface of Toril, with Waterdeep the only port even remotely as hospitable. Where Realmspace erroneously speaks of the "Shou Lung" hiring foreign mages from the stars, it's actually talking about Shin So Tang.
And now, of course, the reason the young T'u emperor winds up going to Mulhorand is that Shin So Tang's plots succeeded. In an attack financed with the proceeds from exotic trade, used to hire flying ships and foreign wizards, the Wai clan was driven from power in favor of the Shin clan, descended from the first T'u emperor Shin Ginsen. The deposed Emperor is looking for his own exotic backing with the magical secrets of an ancient civilization to retake power from the re-ascendent Shin. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2017 : 04:35:28
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| Realmspace also describes a spelljamming port on Nimbral -- something not even hinted at in Ed's later series of articles on Nimbral. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2017 : 05:39:31
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quote:
Originally posted by see
People who do deals with beholders and mind flayers and scro are unlikely to find T'u Lung objectionable on ethical grounds. My personal interpretation would be that the T'u Lung are too disunited a country to be able to manage a serious space program. 100,000+ gp per spelljamming helm makes any sort of effort expensive, and the obvious alternative is spending that on something that can protect you from noble factions more cost-efficiently.
Chunming's local notable (Shin So Tang, administrator of the Shin district in Ausa province) might well be the one responsible for it being a spelljammer port, seeking wealth from exotic trade to help him in his continual plotting for the "downfall of the usurping Wai family" that currently rules T'u Lung. Perhaps he's even trying to make contacts with mercenary spelljammers to support his "very powerful" faction, in order to attempt a coup or civil war backed by flying ships. The taxes and fees are cheap because Shin So Tang knows if he was obviously filling his coffers directly (instead of through some trading houses he secretly controls), other T'u nobles would seek to get in on the trade, or ban him from it; he's playing a subtle game where they dismiss his decision to invite outlandish foreign barbarians into the city as a senseless eccentricity. Instead, his fair fees and reasonable polices make the city a favored stop for spelljammers on the surface of Toril, with Waterdeep the only port even remotely as hospitable. Where Realmspace erroneously speaks of the "Shou Lung" hiring foreign mages from the stars, it's actually talking about Shin So Tang.
And now, of course, the reason the young T'u emperor winds up going to Mulhorand is that Shin So Tang's plots succeeded. In an attack financed with the proceeds from exotic trade, used to hire flying ships and foreign wizards, the Wai clan was driven from power in favor of the Shin clan, descended from the first T'u emperor Shin Ginsen. The deposed Emperor is looking for his own exotic backing with the magical secrets of an ancient civilization to retake power from the re-ascendent Shin.
A little work would have to be done on that theory, just because of this update also in the Kara-tur boxed set which happens in 1357, and the 8th emperor "shouldn't" die until 1370 if we're going with the prophecy that his mother will see him live to 60 is correct. However, it is perfectly feasible that "the barbarian" at the emperor's court actually reveals that the Shin were framed in sending the Chunming wine (it doesn't matter who did it, just so long as the Shin are allowed to return).
Poisoned chunming pepper wine is served to the Emperor, and he gets very ill, but lives through the ordeal. He blames the Shin family of Ausa, and demands the leaders of this clan be executed and their heads be brought to him. The Shin clan is warned and escapes the punishment by hiding somewhere in the hills of E#146;sang Yi. Some believe the Nugha are in league with the Shin clan but no one can find them. An Imperial edict offers 15,000 Ch#146;ien to be split equally among the people who find and bring the Shins to justice
I do like the storyline idea though. This is similar to what I was thinking once I heard Chunming was in T'u Lung and that it was one of the major spelljamming ports. I'm picturing something where the yakuza and some other group (this idea of it being the Shin family would work) allying with outlander spelljamming mercenaries. Heck, these outlander spelljamming mercenaries may even be beholders and beholder-kin.... and the yakuza might be working with them... they do like corrupt societies.
By the way, I am so going to link the Ausa province and the islanders around the continent of Osse. Thinking centuries ago some traders got blown wayward. They called their island a colony of Ausa... corrupted later into Osse. Granted, its blatantly making Polynesian references, but I don't care. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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BadCatMan
Senior Scribe
Australia
401 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2017 : 09:54:13
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Just a passing thought. The prevalence of spelljamming in Kara-Tur (and Realmspace implies more ports than just Chunming, Iiso, and the Dock in the Wu Pi Te Shao Mountains) is weird and isn't supported by the on-the-ground setting (as Spelljammer rarely is). But it suggests another connection perhaps the Celestial Empire is actually celestial and Heaven is actually in the heavens. The Celestial Empire claims dominion over "the Sky", so why not spelljamming too? The mythology, at least, has the Moon Women maintain Heaven, refilling the oil lamps in the Sun, polishing the crystal orbs of the stars, and steering the motions of the Moon and the constellations. The Shou spelljamming program could represent an effort to make good that claim or enforce it (according to their belief of 'on Earth as it is in Heaven, and vice versa'), making it a religious/political (same thing, in this case) act. Or, taken quite literally, maybe the Celestial Bureaucracy uses spelljammers to ferry Moon Women about their work.
Of course, 3rd edition placed the Celestial Empire in the Spirit World, a transitive plane only coexistent with and coterminous to Kara-Tur, but it may yet exist in space, with spirit spelljammers (or celestial lung dragons) flying through spirit space. |
BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
Scientific technical editor
Head DM of the Realms of Adventure play-by-post community
Administrator of the Forgotten Realms Wiki |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2017 : 00:25:23
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I'm intrigued by what you just said, but I want to repeat it back to make sure I'm understanding this concept right. At least during 1357, You would have it that the Celestial Emperor isn't on another plane. He's instead actually in wildspace in a place called "Heaven". In essence, he would be somewhat akin to the other gods which came to Toril to free their followers from the Imaskari, having no outer planar domain. He and his court would be ruling their people directly, but unlike the Mulhorandi and Untheric gods, they wouldn't attempt to live close to their subjects. The Nine Immortals would similarly be akin to the Mulhorandi Manifestations / avatars, having been as well the original 9 emperors of Shou Lung (side question... all 9 were emperors at once? Over different portions of Shou Lung?). These Nine Immortals also appear to have a draconic aspect (possibly even psionic dragons... "Nine Great Dragons which hold up the world and move all things by their thoughts"). Perhaps like the Mulhorandi they bred amongst their followers and that led to the ruling stock of Shou Lung / T'u Lung.
Meanwhile, you propose that the Shou Lung emperor uses his spelljammers to aid powerful spirit servants (such as the moon women) to perform certain tasks in wild space, such as visiting the sun, moon, stars, etc... Particularly devoted sages may be taken to "Heaven" on spelljammers to serve at the behest of the gods as servants and clerks, and may be ferried back and forth to the emperor of Shou Lung to deliver the edicts of the gods. Jade Ladies may help guide spelljammer crews to asteroids which they can then mine for gold, silver, copper, and of course jade.
Given that the precursor to Shou Lung was Anok-Imaskar, and the founding of that was at the fall of Imaskar.... maybe the Mulhorandi and Untheric Pantheons weren't the only to show up to rescue their people from the Imaskari.
Hmmm, something else kind of joins this idea that the Shou are infatuated with flight. They have gliders and a Ministry of Glorious Flight.
"One of the most amazing new inventions of the Gathering of the Pearls is the hua hsiang chi, or glider. The story behind this is interesting. It appears that while visiting his relatives in Kao Shan, the Emperor saw a young man suspended high above the. mountains in a great silk kite. His interest caught, the Son of Heaven instructed his guard to bring the bold flier to him. #147;But this is a dangerous precedent,#148; the mandarins protested. #147;Suppose someone uses a kite like this to drop great weights down upon our armies! This thing should be destroyed!#148; But the Emperor replied, #147;If it can be done, then someone else will recreate this kite, no matter what we do to its inventor! If great weights will be dropped, I am determined that we shall be the ones to do it!#148; The inventor was brought to the palace, where he was immediately proclaimed
the chief of the Ministry of Glorious Flight. Since this time, he has built many great kites, some of which can
fly without strings; much to Emperor Kai Chin#146;s pleasure."
So, then there's another possibility. The Spirit World in 3.5 replaces the astral for Kara-Tur. In essence, similar to the feywild and shadowfell, this spirit world is a reflection of Kara-Tur into another "plane" (and I use that term loosely, as this plane is finite in size) that mirrors just the portion that is Kara-Tur. What you would propose is that this Spirit World is bigger, and that it has spelljammers in it. It would also have its own "sun" and that mystical beings known as moon women can visit this sun on these spelljammers to refill this sun with oil, a reflection of the moon, and reflections of the stars.
Given that there was some big planar shift that happened between 2nd edition and 3rd edition that has never been detailed... I submit that BOTH could be correct. For instance, Siamorphe was Toril bound in 2nd edition, but in 3rd edition she suddenly had a "world tree" domain... and it was like that for several deities. The Mulhorandi deities got their own "world tree domain" as well. So, why not the Celestial Emperor and his court. However, many of the lesser servants (Jade ladies, rice spirits, moon women..... corn women (whoops)) work as celestial servants travelling between where the gods reside and Toril (the red earth) itself. So, these lesser servants could still need to be ferried by spelljammer to perform their duties in the sky. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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BadCatMan
Senior Scribe
Australia
401 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2017 : 03:16:55
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Just fanciful overreach on my part. :) I liked the idea of drawing a mystical connection to spelljamming in Kara-Tur, so it better fit the setting, and found it ready-made for it. The Celestial Empire might be the only pantheon to claim control over space, so I wondered how it would look in practice, and proposed extending the Spirit World to Realmspace. But the extent of that I'll leave open.
On that line of thought, I'd probably say the Jade Throne and the Celestial Palace could be in low geostationary orbit over Shou Lung but in the Spirit World. There, but not there, but definitely an up-in-the-sky heavenly realm like everyone pictures.
I do like the idea of spelljammers being used, at least by mortals, to visit the Celestial Heavens. Imagine one of those things, a dragonship, rising up from Chunming, flying through the sky and the stars, slipping into the Spirit World, and docking at the Celestial Palace for an audience with an Immortal or the Celestial Emperor himself. That's pretty high-level stuff, but lesser spelljamming adventurers might be ordered to carry out tasks for the Bureaucracy. It gives a good reason for the Shou space program, both to serve Heaven and to explore it (as suggested in Spelljammer material).
And perhaps a dragonship takes the form an actual oriental dragon, literally the spirit of the vessel, in the Spirit World.
The Wanese are probably doing something similar.
In myth, the Nine Immortals would appear to have been contemporaneous and simultaneously all emperors, but The Grand History of the Realms presents a more mundane history in which they're mortal emperors at different times, who later ascended. For example, Chan Cheng. As dragons, they usually manifest as oriental dragons. |
BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
Scientific technical editor
Head DM of the Realms of Adventure play-by-post community
Administrator of the Forgotten Realms Wiki |
Edited by - BadCatMan on 11 Jun 2017 06:42:07 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2017 : 13:07:10
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| A little of stretch of imagination here, but in 4e spelljammers can travel not only in space, but also through the planes. So, the idea of connecting the Spirit Plane and the Wild Space is not contradictory with recent canon. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 11 Jun 2017 13:07:31 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2017 : 14:07:21
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quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan
Just fanciful overreach on my part. :) I liked the idea of drawing a mystical connection to spelljamming in Kara-Tur, so it better fit the setting, and found it ready-made for it. The Celestial Empire might be the only pantheon to claim control over space, so I wondered how it would look in practice, and proposed extending the Spirit World to Realmspace. But the extent of that I'll leave open.
On that line of thought, I'd probably say the Jade Throne and the Celestial Palace could be in low geostationary orbit over Shou Lung but in the Spirit World. There, but not there, but definitely an up-in-the-sky heavenly realm like everyone pictures.
I do like the idea of spelljammers being used, at least by mortals, to visit the Celestial Heavens. Imagine one of those things, a dragonship, rising up from Chunming, flying through the sky and the stars, slipping into the Spirit World, and docking at the Celestial Palace for an audience with an Immortal or the Celestial Emperor himself. That's pretty high-level stuff, but lesser spelljamming adventurers might be ordered to carry out tasks for the Bureaucracy. It gives a good reason for the Shou space program, both to serve Heaven and to explore it (as suggested in Spelljammer material).
And perhaps a dragonship takes the form an actual oriental dragon, literally the spirit of the vessel, in the Spirit World.
The Wanese are probably doing something similar.
In myth, the Nine Immortals would appear to have been contemporaneous and simultaneously all emperors, but The Grand History of the Realms presents a more mundane history in which they're mortal emperors at different times, who later ascended. For example, Chan Cheng. As dragons, they usually manifest as oriental dragons.
Yeah, I do like the concept, the art to it is just nailing things down. I could see a geostationary orbit Celestial Palace that's actually "out of Phase" with the rest of Faerun.
In fact, one of the things I'd been discussing with Abeir could fit into this as well. I was going to have it that during the spellplague in Abeir some of the gods transferred over are more visceral. One aspect to this that I was presenting was this concept that while everyone sees the sun (even Abeirans), depending on your religious belief you will see a different deity interacting with the sun. So, for instance, the Mazticans see Tezca in the sky, but the Azuposi see the spirit known as Sun Father. The Metahel see a deity I based on Frey that I named "Fraeyollo" (I made up a whole Norse like pantheon for them, using slightly altered names, different history, etc...). The Mulhorandi see Ra (and are surprised to see him alive again... I did this due to the SCAG having Ra back), with Horus riding beside him. The red wizards of the United Tharchs see Lathander, but some even see Horus-Re looking vengeful at the same time. Some individuals have come to accept all of these religions, in which case they actually saw multiple deities in the sky.
Anyway, what if something like this also exists in Kara-Tur, and it helps FUEL belief in the Celestial Emperor. If you believe, then when you look into the Sky, you can see Heaven. Outsiders that look up are confused, because they cannot see what the people of Kara-Tur see. Similarly, maybe outsiders who don't believe cannot see the Moon Women, the Rice Spirits, the Jade Ladies, the Ladies of Compassion, the Lords of Karma, the Spirit Warriors, etc... without some kind of magical aid. To an outsider, they see some commoner interacting with a spirit, and its like they're interacting with something invisible.... yet see invisibility still doesn't reveal them (true seeing would). Maybe make some "spirit interaction" spell that's low level (1st level maybe... maybe even a cantrip), but that exists over all of Kara-Tur kind of like a giant mythal that casts this spell on anyone who believes.
Not sure if its a good idea game wise, but it sounds interesting. It could be interesting as well, if this were in place if something disrupted this effect and the people no longer saw the spirits, and just how that might affect them.
Oh, and thank you for the GHotR reference. So, the Nine Immortals came to be emperor at different times. From a "chicken/egg" perspective that can be important.
Oh, also along these lines, in reading some of the above, I saw the "Lords of Karma" and the "Spirit Warriors" who carry the slain off to the underworld. Apparently if you're judged well, you can be carried to the heavens. Maybe this is viewed as you riding a dragon spirit to the heavens, and the people of Kara-Tur may actually see "grandpa" riding a dragon to go to heaven. Maybe this is why the emperor, when he designed spelljammers decided to make them look like dragons... and maybe as you describe... just maybe all the dragonships are infused with a spirit dragon that can be released to come to the aid of the crew while in realmspace (but it goes dormant outside of realmspace).
And that leads to another question.... if there is an actual heaven to correspond to Heaven , should there be an underworld in the underdark to correspond to the Underworld ? Might the underdark of Kara-Tur be filled with spirit beings (nature spirits <including elementals and dragons>, demons, the dead, etc...). I would note that if you do this, I would actually have Kara-Tur filled with a lot more dragon spirits, but that they also aren't nearly as strong as a traditional dragon (though some are). In essence have something on the power level of faerie dragons and pseudodragons that might be nature guardians over a collection of lightly timbered hills with a spring, or some larger dragon with wood-like scales protecting a forest, etc... instead of pixie like beings. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2017 : 20:38:56
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Haven't had time to read-through the last few posts, unfortunately, but just some observations -
I like the idea that there were two Chunmings, but we should have a little history that would bring some cohesion to everything, using the lore to fix the lore. Suppose 'Chunming' was a great hero from Shou's past? There could have been two cities with that name (there is at least one Faerūnian city that got renamed since 1st edition, because it had a duplicate).- heck, RW had dozens of 'Alexandrias'. But that 'hero' came from the south, and when Tu'Lung split from Shou-Lung, the emperor had the city renamed to Cham Fau (as someone else suggested above), rather than continue to honor a 'hero' from the 'traitorous south'. In fact, at that time, it may have been the ONLY Chunming, and just out of spite, the new Tu'Lung emperor renamed another city Chunming within his own territory (that might be simplest in-setting reasoning). Especially if the original 'Chun Ming' was an ancestor of the new southern dynasty.
As for why most Shou don't know about the Dragonships - think modern China. or maybe modern China of 40 years ago (when I was still in school). Most villages didn't even have electricity or running water back then. They were so remote, sometimes they NEVER heard news about what was going on in the rest of the world. So it could just be that 'scholarly types' (and just about everyone in the administration) knows the truth, but 95-99% of the population - 'mere, uneducated peasants' - wouldn't know. We are talking about an ethnicity that is even less 'in the loop' than folks in medieval Europe were. Outside areas where these ships dock, no-one talks about it (by imperial decree). If someone does slip-up, people would just think that person was making up crazy stories, and 'spies' would make sure that's exactly what people would think they were - 'the ravings of a lunatic'.
And it says right there in canon that the Official Histories have been changed several times, to respin things in such a way as to cast the best light on the agenda of the current government. Tu'Lung could be doing that as well (after all, they are just a 'knock-off' of the older empire). There is our reasoning right there for why Chunming may have been changed from Cham Fau, or even why another city (in the south) got renamed that. That would have been something Shou would have definitely modified in THEIR version of 'The Histories'.
And of of course, the BIGGEST thing the histories seem to have left out is that the FIRST Empire of Shou Lung (there have been three, IIRC) was actually Anok Imaskar... and an Imaskari 'survivor state'. Seems like they obliterated that completely.
I also like to play with the idea of those Krakentua actually being an experiment by the Illithids (or Imaskari using illithids), maybe even as a way to capture/control/ round-up all those Gargantua (Kaiju) and stick them on that island. I picture them having an illithid inject its egg into a titan... with disastrous results. Or it could even be the Imaskari merely meddling with the Far Realms and primordials (although as powerful as they are, I don't think even the Krakentua are in the same power-league as the Primordials... maybe their offspring?) |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 11 Jun 2017 20:50:46 |
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BadCatMan
Senior Scribe
Australia
401 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2017 : 11:37:44
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
One aspect to this that I was presenting was this concept that while everyone sees the sun (even Abeirans), depending on your religious belief you will see a different deity interacting with the sun. So, for instance, the Mazticans see Tezca in the sky, but the Azuposi see the spirit known as Sun Father. The Metahel see a deity I based on Frey that I named "Fraeyollo" (I made up a whole Norse like pantheon for them, using slightly altered names, different history, etc...). The Mulhorandi see Ra (and are surprised to see him alive again... I did this due to the SCAG having Ra back), with Horus riding beside him. The red wizards of the United Tharchs see Lathander, but some even see Horus-Re looking vengeful at the same time. Some individuals have come to accept all of these religions, in which case they actually saw multiple deities in the sky.
Anyway, what if something like this also exists in Kara-Tur, and it helps FUEL belief in the Celestial Emperor. If you believe, then when you look into the Sky, you can see Heaven. Outsiders that look up are confused, because they cannot see what the people of Kara-Tur see. Similarly, maybe outsiders who don't believe cannot see the Moon Women, the Rice Spirits, the Jade Ladies, the Ladies of Compassion, the Lords of Karma, the Spirit Warriors, etc... without some kind of magical aid. To an outsider, they see some commoner interacting with a spirit, and its like they're interacting with something invisible.... yet see invisibility still doesn't reveal them (true seeing would). Maybe make some "spirit interaction" spell that's low level (1st level maybe... maybe even a cantrip), but that exists over all of Kara-Tur kind of like a giant mythal that casts this spell on anyone who believes.
This is similar to my personal view that the gods are created/defined by the beliefs of mortals and thus beliefs are only locally true for each culture and race. For example, each has their own sun god, and there are multiple sun gods, all being sun gods. Then the heresies and shifting beliefs of mortals change their sun gods.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Oh, and thank you for the GHotR reference. So, the Nine Immortals came to be emperor at different times. From a "chicken/egg" perspective that can be important.
Chicken and egg indeed. As Markustay said, Shou history is mostly falsified, exaggerated, and censored, especially the official histories. Hence why I arranged the Chan Cheng article as I did. It's necessary to distinguish proper history from myth and legend, and take it all with a bucket of salt.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
And that leads to another question.... if there is an actual heaven to correspond to Heaven , should there be an underworld in the underdark to correspond to the Underworld ? Might the underdark of Kara-Tur be filled with spirit beings (nature spirits <including elementals and dragons>, demons, the dead, etc...).
I think so. It's not clear where the Underworld lies exactly; I had to make the assumption that it's a part of the Spirit World through interpolation. That it's in the local Spirit World version of the Underdark is a natural next step. The Kozakurans seem to believe it's underground, with a supposed access in a local volcano. However, the Shou think it's off to the west. So, Faerūn? :D
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I would note that if you do this, I would actually have Kara-Tur filled with a lot more dragon spirits, but that they also aren't nearly as strong as a traditional dragon (though some are). In essence have something on the power level of faerie dragons and pseudodragons that might be nature guardians over a collection of lightly timbered hills with a spring, or some larger dragon with wood-like scales protecting a forest, etc... instead of pixie like beings.
I think this is the case, it's the usual belief in place spirits. I imagine, rather than having dragons in every body of water, most of the dragons lie in the Spirit World, and rarely manifest bodily in the real world. |
BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
Scientific technical editor
Head DM of the Realms of Adventure play-by-post community
Administrator of the Forgotten Realms Wiki |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2017 : 13:41:39
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| Just got an idea while doing something else. Based on the idea that heaven is visible in the sky, and the known idea that Kara-Tur has gliders and the ministry of flight... what if there are "air wu-jen" who have some far off Monastery of "some dragon spirit of the air" and one of the things they've been exploring is flying to heaven via glider. Yeah, I know its very "avatar: the last airbender", but at the same time, it adds a lot more reason for seeking flight by glider. Hell, it may not even be wu-jen... it could be elemental monks.. and DM's guild also has something akin to bending rules for 5e. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2017 : 23:25:39
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'The Underworld' could just be the Underdark of the Shadowfell (so basically, just another place within the 'Plane of Shadows', where a LOT of 'spirit types' (undead) originated from. Whats that called again? The Underdshadow, or some-such?
On the other hand, for Kara-Tur (OA), I might be tempted to just use my concept of the Border-Ethereal (the 'Milltemarches'), and say THAT has a corresponding 'heaven' ("Above") and 'hell' ("Below"). In fact, the whole of the Mittlemarch could just be K-T's 'Spirit Realm', being a transitive plane that connects all others. Of course, unlike the canon Border-Ethereal, mine also connects to the astral, and this would all make more sense with that bit added (so it would also be a conduit to the godly realms as well, or at least to the Outlands, where most K-T deities reside, IIRC).
To the commoner of K-T (or any OA setting), they wouldn't really know about all those other planes and worlds - they would just know that 'divine beings' (Kami) step-out from the 'Spirit Realm', so they would assume they all came from there, not realizing its just a planer 'super-highway'.
So some being would enter the Border Ethereal and go 'up' to heaven, and others would go 'down' to the Underworld. One main entrance, many paths leading away.
Although, I am still seeing the 'Shadoworld' (Shadowfell) as the best bet for planer underdark setting. It still all works though, if you take my version you enter the Mittlemarch, and you have three main paths you can take - up, down, or forward... forward leads you further into the Ethereal (and eventually into the Phlogiston between worlds), the downwards path take you into the Shadowfell itself, and 'up' lead to the Astral, of course, which eventually leads to 'the Heavens' (the Outer Planes). Thus, the 'Border Ethereal' really just becomes the Border to everything 'spiritual' (KT's 'Spirit World'). Its basically just the 'Wood Between the Worlds' - you step outside 'physicality' into the spirit realm and from there you can travel anywhere.
So we don't have to define the 'Spirit World' as an actual place, so much as it is just a concept of OA. Its just the entrance to everywhere. I feel this smooths the rough edges of combining Asian cosmology with D&D mythos. The 'Celestial Bureaucracy' can exist alongside the concept of The Great Wheel. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Jun 2017 23:29:13 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2017 : 23:31:33
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Oh, and the whole "up, down, or forward" is more a metaphysical kind of thing, not those actual, physical directions. You can move in all those directions in a normal, physical way within the Border Ethereal (Spirit World), and still be within it, and moving about it - its still a plane unto itself, with its own geography and inhabitants.
Think of it like a super-highway (the greatest one in the universe). The highway itself can still be huge - I don't know how big they get in other countries, but I know at some places the NJ Turnpike is 16 lanes or more, and has its own spots for gas stations and rest stops, as part of the highway itself. And yet, you can get off at any exit and go 'somewhere else'. So its like that - you can go wherever you like, or just stay on the road itself forever (a nigh-infinitely wide and long 'road'). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Jun 2017 23:36:55 |
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Auppenser
Acolyte
5 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2018 : 21:38:47
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So, I love this thread. I'm in the middle of writing stories for a character who was born in 1359 and raised in Mulhorand, trained by an exiled, enslaved Kozakuran in the art of the sword while growing up in Mulhorand, and then travels to Kara-Tur in search of more information on Spelljamming. This thread has a little bit of everything I care about in developing her.
I'd always clung to that little nugget about the T'u Lung emperor being in Mulhorand as something that could matter for her life, in a big or a small way, and this thread has done more to help me think about that than any which has come before. I'm going to try to write the story in a way that leaves the specifics vague, so as to be flexible later.
But thanks to everyone who participated in this thread, it's been a gold mine. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2018 : 22:36:58
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| Yeah, I really liked this thread as well, and surprisingly it started from something that I didn't see going anywhere. Sometimes its those weird little threads that you pull on that bring you to interesting places. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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BadCatMan
Senior Scribe
Australia
401 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2018 : 03:26:20
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You might be interested in the Bushido mercenary company from Gold & Glory then. Kara-Tur soldiers fighting as mercenaries in the Old Empires in the early 1360s DR, with a mostly samurari theme.
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Bushido_(organization)
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BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
Scientific technical editor
Head DM of the Realms of Adventure play-by-post community
Administrator of the Forgotten Realms Wiki |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2018 : 13:16:31
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Hey Auppenser,
I got your private message, but your account must be setup to not allow email responses. We're all very much a close group here for the most part, so I feel like most won't mind my introducing them. By all means, ask and usually someone will answer if they have time. As far as who are really good Kara-Tur resources here, I would definitely count BadCatMan. From what I gather he maintains the FR Wiki (god bless this man), and a lot of what I've picked up regarding Shou Lung has been via reading something here and then looking it up on the Wiki. Of most of us here, he's also one of the ones who is most likely to stay truest to canon. Another good resource is Markustay, but he.... like me.... tends to drift into concept first and then research to make sure it works after. ZeroMaru X is also one who is great for ideas, but they tend to come from a 4e viewpoint, which isn't bad, but sometimes involves some discussion on how earlier editions portrayed things (which actually is kind of fun... it makes you go back and reread things that you assumed you knew). Wooly Rupert, Brian R. James, and George Krashos tend to be in that middle ground between canon and wildly flinging ideas. The ones who stick more to canon tend to be less vocal, but when they do talk its more researched.
Oh, and if you lean into the "Utter East" (i.e. that stretch of coastline between the shining south and Zakhara), by far the two best resources I've seen here are Markustay and BadCatMan.
If you ever stray into other far flung areas, such as Maztica, there is no better resource that I've met than Seethyr.
Oh, and if you ever want to talk conceptual magic and balancing magic, that's my strength. I've got a mind bent towards "finding the flaw" in magic mechanics. It tends to make my mechanics wordy though. I am a bit weak on the changes in wording on 5e spells though (you see the same rough wording on things across 5 editions and you begin to lose the changes). Diffan's also a really great resource for this kind of thing, but more towards mechanics in general.
BTW, if anyone doesn't like how I kind of described you, please don't take offense, its just kind of how I have seen conversations go over the years. I know myself as a person who is often taking an idea and running with it, only to end up fact checking and backing up and then backing up more, until it works. A lot of the initial concepts I throw out need work, BUT I find doing the work fulfilling. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2018 : 15:40:46
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Wooly Rupert, Brian R. James, and George Krashos tend to be in that middle ground between canon and wildly flinging ideas.
That's an interesting description!
I tend to think of it as playing in the gray areas, myself -- finding those spots that canon doesn't cover, then working something into there. I consider that a gray area because it's clearly not canon, whatever I come up with -- but I try to make it something that adheres to what canon is available and doesn't break anything.
Like my livegolems -- there were constructs used in the Great Conflagration. Making a small number of them warforged-esque isn't canon, but nothing in canon contradicts the idea.
Unless, of course, it's one of those thought exercises where I'm deliberately putting a non-canon spin on something, like my rewrites of the Spellplague.  |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 11 May 2018 15:43:25 |
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Auppenser
Acolyte
5 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2018 : 22:07:23
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Hey Auppenser,
I got your private message, but your account must be setup to not allow email responses. We're all very much a close group here for the most part, so I feel like most won't mind my introducing them. By all means, ask and usually someone will answer if they have time. As far as who are really good Kara-Tur resources here, I would definitely count BadCatMan. From what I gather he maintains the FR Wiki (god bless this man), and a lot of what I've picked up regarding Shou Lung has been via reading something here and then looking it up on the Wiki. Of most of us here, he's also one of the ones who is most likely to stay truest to canon. Another good resource is Markustay, but he.... like me.... tends to drift into concept first and then research to make sure it works after. ZeroMaru X is also one who is great for ideas, but they tend to come from a 4e viewpoint, which isn't bad, but sometimes involves some discussion on how earlier editions portrayed things (which actually is kind of fun... it makes you go back and reread things that you assumed you knew). Wooly Rupert, Brian R. James, and George Krashos tend to be in that middle ground between canon and wildly flinging ideas. The ones who stick more to canon tend to be less vocal, but when they do talk its more researched.
Oh, and if you lean into the "Utter East" (i.e. that stretch of coastline between the shining south and Zakhara), by far the two best resources I've seen here are Markustay and BadCatMan.
If you ever stray into other far flung areas, such as Maztica, there is no better resource that I've met than Seethyr.
Oh, and if you ever want to talk conceptual magic and balancing magic, that's my strength. I've got a mind bent towards "finding the flaw" in magic mechanics. It tends to make my mechanics wordy though. I am a bit weak on the changes in wording on 5e spells though (you see the same rough wording on things across 5 editions and you begin to lose the changes). Diffan's also a really great resource for this kind of thing, but more towards mechanics in general.
BTW, if anyone doesn't like how I kind of described you, please don't take offense, its just kind of how I have seen conversations go over the years. I know myself as a person who is often taking an idea and running with it, only to end up fact checking and backing up and then backing up more, until it works. A lot of the initial concepts I throw out need work, BUT I find doing the work fulfilling.
Thanks for the advice! |
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Auppenser
Acolyte
5 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2018 : 22:09:41
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quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan
You might be interested in the Bushido mercenary company from Gold & Glory then. Kara-Tur soldiers fighting as mercenaries in the Old Empires in the early 1360s DR, with a mostly samurari theme.
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Bushido_(organization)
Thanks for the suggestion! |
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BadCatMan
Senior Scribe
Australia
401 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2018 : 02:34:45
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
As far as who are really good Kara-Tur resources here, I would definitely count BadCatMan. From what I gather he maintains the FR Wiki (god bless this man), and a lot of what I've picked up regarding Shou Lung has been via reading something here and then looking it up on the Wiki. Of most of us here, he's also one of the ones who is most likely to stay truest to canon.
Thanks, I feel like I've reached a special level of internet fame. :D But I'm not the only one maintaining the wiki, and nor even the busiest this year, regrettably, as I've been forced to cut back. There are about a half-dozen of us who regularly contribute quality lore to the wiki, including Zeromaru X. The whole team deserves credit. :)
A few weeks ago, a newbie got all keen about developing the Kara-Tur and Shou Lung pages on a continent scale, but they seem to have been overwhelmed by the scale of the project and bailed. That happens too often, unfortunately. So, a recommendation to anyone who's interested in getting into the wiki and is looking for a project, start small, slow, and focused, then work your way up and out. Begin with the little things, and the big things will get easier. |
BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
Scientific technical editor
Head DM of the Realms of Adventure play-by-post community
Administrator of the Forgotten Realms Wiki |
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Any idea why the T'uLung emperor was in Mulhorand?
