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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2501 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Jan 2017 : 10:38:21
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Reading SCAG I found that wall, that it wasn't mentioned in the 4e FRCG. Doing some research, I did not like what I read. That Wall is plainly... disturbing (and AO fell hard in my ranking of cool gods for allowing that). If someone is a good person, but an atheist, will be suffering for all eternity, while... I don't know, an evil ashamadai will get a reward in the afterlife for being a bad person. That's plainly unfair.
So, I do not want it to be part of my Realms. But, watching some gameplays of Nevenwinter Nights 2, Kelemvor says that the Wall cannot be destroyed as people would have no need for faith and gods, and the gods' power would wane. And I do not want to kill the gods. I like them.
So, here is my question: How can I get rid of the Wall without destroying the Realms?
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Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 27 Jan 2017 10:39:18
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36880 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2017 : 12:14:01
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Don't get rid of it. Repurpose it.
First, keep in mind that if someone is an atheist in the Realms (despite all the evidence that gods exist), there is no afterlife they can go to. Something has to be done with them...
And the Wall is not a punishment for what someone does in life -- it's all about their beliefs.
I once theorized the existence of some very powerful evil, something it took all of the gods to band together and banish. It's not the most original thing, I know... But my spin was that this evil thing was somehow broken up into smaller bits. There's a major chunk of it in or near the Fugue Plain, and part of the point of the Wall was to provide a slowly-consumed power source that fuels the wards locking away that nastybad.
(I also put part of it in Cyric's realm; my thinking was that if this lesser bit was capable of speaking to or influencing Cyric, it would explain a lot of his insanity. And if he'd inherited it from Bane, it could explain why Bane thought stealing the Tablets of Fate was a good idea. It could even explain Jergal deciding he'd had enough and stepping down).
This doesn't change the nature of the Wall, or the moral quandaries of it. But instead of having it exist just as a form of punishment, it becomes the lesser, by far, of two evils, if it's spun the way I suggest.
Another alternative would be that the Wall could be for the False, and not for the Faithless. If I'd've thought up the Wall, that's how I would have done it.
Or get rid of the Wall altogether, and just toss all those unwanted souls into some sort of crucible that spits out planar types of the same alignment but with no particular connection to deities.
Me, personally, while I do find the Wall distasteful, it's not something I worry about. For the majority of people living in the Realms, or the majority of games set there, the Wall simply is not a factor. Really, it's only going to come into play for the PCs if they have a specific reason to travel to the Fugue Plain and interact with it -- unless one of them is an atheist.
It'd be like setting a campaign on the Sword Coast but making a point to rewrite Phlan. Even if you hate everything about Phlan (and I do, thanks to the Pools novels), it's not worth paying any attention to it if your PCs are never going there.
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 27 Jan 2017 12:17:55 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2501 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2017 : 13:43:39
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| The problem with the Wall of the Faithless is when you have a player rping a dragonborn (or any other abeiran character) who actively don't believe in gods... But I guess you're right. Unless a player have a problem with it, I will ignore that disturbing wall. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6383 Posts |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2017 : 14:14:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
The problem with the Wall of the Faithless is when you have a player rping a dragonborn (or any other abeiran character) who actively don't believe in gods... But I guess you're right. Unless a player have a problem with it, I will ignore that disturbing wall.
I actually see this as something that makes the Dragonborn more interesting, precisely because of the existence of the wall of the faithless...
If you add in Wooly's hypothesis about the Wall's purpose, it actually reinforces the Dragonborn's atheism as a form noble sacrifice that allows them to protect the multiverse from threats that have been long forgotten by the living... Great RPing potential.
Finally, considering the presence of Asmodeus in the Fugue plane, trying to recruit souls, there is always the potentiality that the "threat" of the Wall of the Faithless is something being perpetuated by Asmodeus & Jergal to their own ends... Making Dazzlerdal's interpretation just as viable as the Realms "canon".
So, I suppose I like the idea that the afterlife in the Realms isn't necessarily a clear-cut reality and retains a sense of mystery. (Just like folks concepts of the afterlife here on Earth). |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3811 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2017 : 14:55:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Reading SCAG I found that wall, that it wasn't mentioned in the 4e FRCG. Doing some research, I did not like what I read. That Wall is plainly... disturbing (and AO fell hard in my ranking of cool gods for allowing that). If someone is a good person, but an atheist, will be suffering for all eternity, while... I don't know, an evil ashamadai will get a reward in the afterlife for being a bad person. That's plainly unfair.
So, I do not want it to be part of my Realms. But, watching some gameplays of Nevenwinter Nights 2, Kelemvor says that the Wall cannot be destroyed as people would have no need for faith and gods, and the gods' power would wane. And I do not want to kill the gods. I like them.
So, here is my question: How can I get rid of the Wall without destroying the Realms?
IMO, nothing stops you from getting rid of it. People all of sudden forgoing the gods just because the Wall isn't there just isn't believable. If you ask me, it's a stupid assumption. Just like good people losing their survival instinct and throwing their lives away in quests against all odds when Kelemvor decided to reward good behaviour was stupid.
It isn't believable because, that I know, a lot of people aren't even aware of the Wall, and especially because most people don't follow the gods just out fear, and when they do, it's not because of the Wall (praying to Umberlee to avoid her wrath, for example). There are many reasons for people to pray to the gods, be it the simple hope of benefiting from it (invoking Tymora's blessing before an important task, for example), or identifying and feeling some kind of bond with the deity, or believing in the cause of a certain deity, and so on. Taking away the Wall isn't going to change any of that.
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Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 27 Jan 2017 14:58:14 |
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Starshade
Learned Scribe
Norway
279 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2017 : 16:21:28
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One part of the problem is how to reasonably give players the ability to resurrect a fallen atheist, or heretic, since no afterlife = no ressurection.
I'm not having an issue with the morality of he Wall, though it makes little sense, but if the issue comes up, I'd think something up who gives the character a chance for an ressurection. But it probably won't come for free. |
Edited by - Starshade on 27 Jan 2017 16:23:26 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36880 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2017 : 17:14:01
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People have been removed from the Wall before, though it was requested by another deity.
I would say that the only way to remove someone from the Wall would involve Kelemvor, who would require some major favor in return... Like, destroying a vampire necromancer. |
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EltonRobb
Learned Scribe
USA
171 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2017 : 17:38:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
So, here is my question: How can I get rid of the Wall without destroying the Realms?
I don't know about the others, or their response, but I completely remove the wall from my games. I do reincarnation, myself. There is a couple of things about the Realms that don't make sense to me presently. One of these is the Afterlife.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2017 : 18:56:28
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The wall has NEVER come up in my games. To me, worrying about 'the wall' (and who's going to pay for it ) is akin to worrying about whats happening on Oerth, or Krynn... it simply does no matter in-game.
Now, I completely understand 'meta-gaming' as a DM, so that I know whats going on in the background, everywhere. So what little thought I have given to the wall is this - everyone goes where they think they deserve to go (you basically judge yourself). I know that sounds idiotic on the surface, but once you die, you get stripped of all your 'worldy perceptions' - you have CLARITY.
For those who were truly devout, you go directly to heaven (or hell, etc), do not pass GO, do not collect $200. But for those who are lacking the proper 'purity' (from the standpoint of where they think they should go, so it could be 'purity of evil'), you go to the Fugue and get judged first. Souls that get judged incapable of making it into any afterlife are simply 'cast out' - set adrift in the shadowfel (which is where I picture the Fugue being). These 'lost souls' could wander for an eternity, find a new niche (maybe haunt the prime), or become fodder for fiends (you 'shine' at your Char. lev., so a lev 1 'nobody' is more likely to get overlooked than a lev. 15 jerk).
The above applies to everyone, in the multiverse (IMG). Specifically in Faerūn, if you were found to be the decent sort, but just didn't worship any particular deity hard enough (just paid lip-service to the whole pantheon), then you stayed in Kelemvor's Realm (after being picked-up by his proxies in The Fugue). His own followers would be the 'aristocrats' in his Realm. If you were NOT a decent person, and also didn't pay attention to any particular god, then you would end up in the wall (hence, a duel-punishment for BOTH having no faith, AND being 'bad').
if you were completely faithless (in Faerūn), you wouldn't even make it to be judged by Kelemvor. The idea of being an atheist in the realms is preposterous (agnostic, maybe, like the Imaskari, but not atheist) - there is actual proof the gods exist, and you'd have to be just a little bit crazy to not believe in them (you could hate them, or think of them as 'less than divine', but you still have to except they exist). So, for a dragonborn or something else who simply won't 'accept' the gods, you'd go to the Fugue. If you were a really good person, agents of some good god (in the case of a dragonborn, perhaps Bahamut) may offer you a place. if you were a really terrible person, agents of a bad god could make a claim on you. if you were just *meh* your whole life, then you get the 'set adrift' thing - you have no place in the universe, and you are fated to wander the shadowfel until you do find a place, or you get caught by fiends.
And as I said, I don't use any of that, because it doesn't come into play. But I agree the wall is a bit harsh, which is why I picture it as something you only wind-up in if you both 'deny' the gods, AND are a total douche.
And I like Wooly's idea that the wall is fueling something - this goes hand-in-hand with my musings from another thread (and lots of established lore, both FR and D&D in general). That when uber-power types 'die', they actual go into a comatose state (like the World Serpent) and their bodies still contain their energies, and can be leached-off of. Perhaps the original Elder God of death/entropy has little bits of itself spread all over the multiverse, in every 'afterlife' ("Don't touch that! Its EVIL!"), and it uses these bits to influence death in all the realms of the dead (after all, someone has to establish all these rules the entirety of the multiverse seems to follow). In fact, maybe 'afterlifes' form around these pieces of pure Death, and the deities of death are just the local 'caretakers'. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 27 Jan 2017 19:02:08 |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1566 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2017 : 05:22:23
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| I just had to rewatch the Spirit Eater's confrontation with Myrkul on youtube, because I just love the parts where he tears down Kaelyn's self-righteousness. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12027 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2017 : 14:07:43
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The simple idea that one pantheon gets all the souls of people who choose to NOT worship the gods is stupid. Why wouldn't Osiris get them all so that he could build a wall? Is it suddenly based on where the person died and the gods are playing real estate landlord..... well, if that's the case, what happens in places like Chessenta? I like having the idea of the wall as punishment, but it needs to be for another punishment, like for someone who willfully performed actions which worked against the pantheon of his belief and empowered a different pantheon (i.e. a person gets mad at the Faerunian pantheon and deliberately kills all priests of the Faerunian pantheon so that another pantheon can flourish in the area). That won't exactly produce enough fodder to build a huge wall though, so other actions which worked against the pantheon as a whole might allow for this type of punishment.... or maybe another path, such as those who willfully chose undeath as a means to cheat the gods of his soul.... or those who SOUGHT immortality as a means of same denying the gods of their soul... basically a punishment to stop mortals from trying to become gods.
There will still be those who question whether the GODS actually exist (despite all the "proof" that surrounds them, some will think its a form of magic simply based upon collective "belief" in a concept to the point that the weave creates a "battery" of power for these folk to draw upon.... and any manifestations of said god are simply magical constructs created by some kind of epic fascination with the gods.... and just how far from the truth is this?). So, what should happen to the souls of those individuals? Personally, this is where the idea of gods/great spirits who are LOCAL to Toril come into play, and these individuals actually have their spirit become a spirit tied to the land. In some cultures this might create "telthors" and there are other "nature spirits" and this belief actually draws energy from the feywild INTO Toril (note, worshippers of Entropy may actually be doing similar, but drawing energy from the negative material plane/shadowfell into Toril... and thus why Entropy is such a threat to the gods)... in others those beings may be called "weaveghosts" and they're tied to the weave of magic local to the area... in others, they are "ancestor spirits" which can be called upon for their wisdom until their ancestor stories are forgotten and their energy simple fades away to be reworked into another soul. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2017 : 17:39:25
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I think this has come up before, which is why there is a 'Fugue' in the first place. Not just because of multiple pantheons on Toril, but because of the nature of the multiverse (and SJ, and PS). Basically, you're just waiting around for the right people to pick you up (and for atheists, that means no-one... usually). I suppose if you are a Faerūnian, someone comes to get you no matter what - Kelemvor's proxies perhaps - and then you get judged by him... or handed-off to one of the other pantheons on Toril. FR' system is a bit more complicated than most, so there is an extra layer.
Think of how much more complicated it gets when some gods are multi-spheric, like the Celestial Emperor, or the archtypes of the demi-human pantheons. Each world has its own morality, based upon conditions and history. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 28 Jan 2017 17:40:20 |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1566 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2017 : 04:21:24
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I guess the only way to reconcile the idea of the Wall with the Faerunian pantheon is that Myrkul one day asked if he was free to do with the souls of the Faithless as he wished, and the other powers went "Eh, sure, whatever. Not my problem."
Then he unveiled the Wall of the Faithless, and the good gods just stood staring at him in horror, the neutral gods regretted not speaking up, and the evil gods went "Awesome, I'm gonna poke this dude here and make him cry more." |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2501 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2017 : 05:50:12
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I can picture some evil gods saying "why I didn't think on that before?", and others writing Myrkul's name in their "I would buy this person a drink" list.
As for the Wall, I guess I'm going to use a cooler version of Kelemvor (not the Neutral Stupid he seems to be in canon). He will put in the wall only those that, knowing about the gods, chose to reject them. This would save people like the inhabitants of Returned Abeir (who didn't knew about gods until they began to interact with Faerun, and many who live in the isolated areas also don't know about them as of 1479 DR) or children who died too young to know about gods. Those "saved" by Kelemvor becomes part of the City or something. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 29 Jan 2017 05:53:07 |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2017 : 20:03:40
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| just use it at a punishment for some sap who killed himself.... |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2017 : 20:18:44
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As I've said twice now, just say those people were EVIL and were faithless (didn't even bother to worship an evil god).
I just don't get punishing someone who wasn't evil, but was just blasé about worshiping beings that didn't impact their life directly. This whole 'kneel before a god or suffer their wrath' thing is just so awful, even if it is just fiction.
And I just thought of a less-horrific way to spin it...
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
just use it at a punishment for some sap who killed himself....
I've really always hated this whole 'unforgivable sin' thing (the main plot device in the Constantine movie).
It seems horrible to eternally punish someone who's life was obviously already full of torment. Even in a fantasy RPG, my mind reels over that one (being a manic-depressive myself). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3811 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2017 : 20:46:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I just don't get punishing someone who wasn't evil, but was just blasé about worshiping beings that didn't impact their life directly. This whole 'kneel before a god or suffer their wrath' thing is just so awful, even if it is just fiction.
This. Especially when there are gods whose beliefs would conflict with this kind of tyranny. That's why I personally prefer to just axe the Wall. It just isn't needed, and it's defintiely not what keeps people paying homage to the gods (and even if it was, I also ignore Ao's decree about gods needing worshipers to survive--even though when a mortal does something that is close to the beliefs and cause of some deity, those actions still fuel that deity's power).
quote:
It seems horrible to eternally punish someone who's life was obviously already full of torment. Even in a fantasy RPG, my mind reels over that one (being a manic-depressive myself).
This as well. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2017 : 22:05:51
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I take wall just as a manifestation of that those unfaithful (and faithless) are left in Fugue forever. Where else should they go? Send them to Abyss, Hell, Limbo?
For me only unfaithful are kept there rest just go to the plane per their alignment and become petitioners there. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3811 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2017 : 23:00:46
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| That's not the case in canon, but the faithless may go to the realm of a god, depending on their actions and beliefs in life. If someone dedicated their life to gardening, Chauntea could welcome their soul, for example. To me it's not even a matter of alignment, but of what drove people in life (and that's also because, using the example of that gardner, their dedication to gardening would benefit Chauntea even if they never prayed to her. Maybe it wouldn't benefit her as much as someone who was faithful to her and was also dedicated to gardening, but it still would). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 29 Jan 2017 23:01:09 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2017 : 02:40:18
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The Wall (along with the entire Fugue Plane, if you like) can be done away with quite painlessly. Just stick to 2E Planescape lore, go back to 1E's (deliberately?) vague planar lore, adopt one of 3E's prominent cosmologies, or embrace 4E's "Astral Sea" stuff.
Ao is the overgod of the Realms and - like it or not - he can do whatever he pleases. He may be quite fond of the Wall, or he might be completely disinterested in such trivial concerns if his divine underling in charge of storing/handling/sorting dead souls seems to be doing things competently enough to keep the Realms "balanced".
'Tis admittedly an unjustly harsh fate for the Faithless. Whether they be worshippers of non-sanctioned deities who should be entitled to a different afterlife, or they be atheists/agnostics who choose to disbelieve in gods at all - why should either group be punished with ages of suffering before reaching final oblivion? To be fair, I think atheism is a rather stupid choice in the Realms, where gods are known to walk the land and where undeniable "proof" of divine miracles are blatantly manifested at every temple and shrine. Only a stubborn fool would choose to be an atheist in such a setting, and perhaps the Wall exists precisely for the purpose of punishing such stubborn fools. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3811 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2017 : 02:42:37
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| Being an atheist as in refusing to belive that the gods are real is indeed stupid. But choosing to not worship the gods while acknowledging their existence is a choice as valid as others. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2017 : 02:47:21
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| The idea of the 'faithless' isn't an integral part of the setting; it was introduced in Jim Lowder's novel Prince of Lies for the sake of its plot. You won't destroy the Realms if you leave it out: worship of the gods there is an inseparable part of life, its world-view and society, as in the 'pagan' ancient Mediterranean and Near East, and is not driven by fear of a bad afterlife. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2501 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2017 : 07:35:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
I take wall just as a manifestation of that those unfaithful (and faithless) are left in Fugue forever. Where else should they go? Send them to Abyss, Hell, Limbo?
For me only unfaithful are kept there rest just go to the plane per their alignment and become petitioners there.
According to the 4e FRCG, the souls in the City of Judgement unclaimed by either gods or fiends "dissolve" and "pass on" to an existence that not even gods know details about it. I like most that approach. The Faithless are just left alone until they dissipate into nothingness. I guess is a more proper "punishment" for choosing to not believe in gods: they aren't forced to take you into an afterlife if you don't worshiped them in life (but neither stops good aligned gods to save you from dissolution if they want to do so).
Mind, the 4e FRCG does not mention anything about a Wall of the Faithless, and although I did read the Avatar crisis novels, I only read the main three (Shadowdale, Tantras and Waterdeep), and the Wall is not mentioned in those three (for what I've read, is mentioned in a novel that's not translated to my mother tongue, and so I didn't knew about it until now, either). That's why I get surprised when I read about the Wall in SCAG. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 30 Jan 2017 07:41:18 |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2017 : 08:16:46
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another way to handle the wall of the faithless is to have it manned by the faithless.
those who shunned worship, in death are the wall of the faithless standing army.... |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36880 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2017 : 10:11:37
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quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
another way to handle the wall of the faithless is to have it manned by the faithless.
those who shunned worship, in death are the wall of the faithless standing army....
What is an army needed for? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2017 : 00:07:25
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| never know..... |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36880 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2017 : 02:39:45
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| Well, considering that the god of the dead could draw from the spirits of his own loyal followers, plus the planar denizens of his realm, and that he has never needed an army in the existence of the plane... I find the idea of taking a third group, that could not be trusted to be loyal, and putting them into a position that there isn't a need for to be kind of an odd one. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2017 : 03:00:17
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| Don't think the Wall was a plot mechanism introduced in the 2E Cyric novels. The Wall was introduced as a background fluff mechanism for 3E Realmslore centered around Jergal, Myrkul, and Kelemvor. |
[/Ayrik] |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2017 : 03:42:01
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well it could be used as brownie points to to tempus's home.....
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why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Alternatives to the Wall of the Faithless
