| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
SABERinBLUE
Acolyte
30 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Jan 2017 : 23:35:32
|
|
Okay I am sorry, I am sure this have been covered to death but I looked and I couldn't find anything conclusive. Is the Great Wheel canonically how the Realms cosmology works now? If so, where are the extra planes like Dweomerheart and the House of Knowledge? Outlands, or incorporated into the Outers?
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2017 : 23:47:47
|
| Yes, the Great Wheel is back with some alterations borrowed from 4e (like the Feywild and the Shadowfell). The divine domains are now likely incorporated into the Outer planes. Dweomerheart/Mystra's realm used to be in Mechanus, IIRC. 5e doesn't say anything specific about the divine domains, so you might as well use the 2e info for them (their position in relation to the Outer planes is explained in "On Hallowed Ground"). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
 |
|
|
cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2020 : 09:23:16
|
Seeker SABERinBLUE,
I'd check each one out. The World Tree was pretty popular too.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by SABERinBLUE
Okay I am sorry, I am sure this have been covered to death but I looked and I couldn't find anything conclusive. Is the Great Wheel canonically how the Realms cosmology works now? If so, where are the extra planes like Dweomerheart and the House of Knowledge? Outlands, or incorporated into the Outers?
|
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
|
|
|
Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2020 : 14:04:54
|
| I prefer the Wheel myself. It's what I know. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
|
|
|
cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2020 : 15:14:54
|
Good morning Great Reader Brimstone!
So, what do you prefer about the wheel as opposed to the other two?
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
I prefer the Wheel myself. It's what I know.
|
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2020 : 16:06:23
|
| I can't speak for Brimstone, but I know that for me, the Great Wheel makes more sense, and it's what was the cosmology for the Realms for years. The Great Tree was a retcon that broke a lot of prior lore, and it didn't improve anything in the process. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
|
|
|
cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2020 : 16:12:32
|
Master Rupert,
Yeah, I can see your point there. Though, I've never really enjoyed any of the three myself, TBH.
I've always seen other planes sort of ethereally overlapping with each other and with the Prime (just using ethereal as a loose analogy here). I've never bothered drawing anything up, but that is the idea I've had in my head. Though, one thing I do like about the World Tree approach is that it almost seems like the TV show Sliders or Quantum Leap in a way. You take these conduits or tunnels to get to that other place, is how I have envisioned it.
I would honestly prefer it if they came out with something entirely different. Of course, that would mean affecting things more in terms of lore. If I had to choose I would go for continuity (I mean, I'd be a hypocrite if I said otherwise).
I will say that something I do as well enjoy about the Wheel though is it has more of a spherical interpretation in my mind from a drawing I saw of it that makes it seem more cosmologically aligned with how the real universe is shaped insomuch as we can see it.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I can't speak for Brimstone, but I know that for me, the Great Wheel makes more sense, and it's what was the cosmology for the Realms for years. The Great Tree was a retcon that broke a lot of prior lore, and it didn't improve anything in the process.
|
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
|
|
|
TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2020 : 22:58:04
|
| I don't see the Great Wheel and World Tree as mutually exclusive. They are only how mortal perceive the outer planes and their connections. Sure, they can travel there and interact with the planes, but to the gods the planes are mutable and mortal perceptions are limited. |
|
|
|
George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2020 : 00:22:09
|
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
I don't see the Great Wheel and World Tree as mutually exclusive. They are only how mortal perceive the outer planes and their connections. Sure, they can travel there and interact with the planes, but to the gods the planes are mutable and mortal perceptions are limited.
Yep, exactly. The sage Pharridus of Hlath propounds the "Cosmic Coil" to account for the make up of the planes, while Artrovan, Loremaster High of Darromar, asserts that the planes all exist in a "nothingness" and have no relative proximity, accessible only from the intermingled Clouds Astral and Ethereal. The scholar Tarlatha of Berdusk in her tome "The Far Journeys: a Sojourn to Places Perilous" states categorically that the planes are actually pieces on a metaphysical gameboard where the Overgod Ao contends with his counterparts in other universes.
Perception is all.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
|
|
|
ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2020 : 00:51:00
|
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
I don't see the Great Wheel and World Tree as mutually exclusive. They are only how mortal perceive the outer planes and their connections. Sure, they can travel there and interact with the planes, but to the gods the planes are mutable and mortal perceptions are limited.
Yep, exactly. The sage Pharridus of Hlath propounds the "Cosmic Coil" to account for the make up of the planes, while Artrovan, Loremaster High of Darromar, asserts that the planes all exist in a "nothingness" and have no relative proximity, accessible only from the intermingled Clouds Astral and Ethereal. The scholar Tarlatha of Berdusk in her tome "The Far Journeys: a Sojourn to Places Perilous" states categorically that the planes are actually pieces on a metaphysical gameboard where the Overgod Ao contends with his counterparts in other universes.
Perception is all.
-- George Krashos
Love this.
--Eric |
--
http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
|
|
|
cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2020 : 01:27:32
|
Tom,
So, are you basically saying that, because mortals can only perceive the three dimensions (ignoring time) physically, that those layouts are just the best way to interpret it?
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
I don't see the Great Wheel and World Tree as mutually exclusive. They are only how mortal perceive the outer planes and their connections. Sure, they can travel there and interact with the planes, but to the gods the planes are mutable and mortal perceptions are limited.
|
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
|
|
|
cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2020 : 01:37:31
|
Master Krashos,
That is epic. Could I please get the tomes you have that from? I now want to read that stuff...a lot! :)
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
I don't see the Great Wheel and World Tree as mutually exclusive. They are only how mortal perceive the outer planes and their connections. Sure, they can travel there and interact with the planes, but to the gods the planes are mutable and mortal perceptions are limited.
Yep, exactly. The sage Pharridus of Hlath propounds the "Cosmic Coil" to account for the make up of the planes, while Artrovan, Loremaster High of Darromar, asserts that the planes all exist in a "nothingness" and have no relative proximity, accessible only from the intermingled Clouds Astral and Ethereal. The scholar Tarlatha of Berdusk in her tome "The Far Journeys: a Sojourn to Places Perilous" states categorically that the planes are actually pieces on a metaphysical gameboard where the Overgod Ao contends with his counterparts in other universes.
Perception is all.
-- George Krashos
|
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2020 : 04:08:52
|
| The problem with the Great Tree isn't the structure of the cosmology, it's the content -- with deities living in different places than described before, or the fact that some of the planes themselves were different. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2020 : 06:51:44
|
Master Rupert,
Yeah, this is a consistency issue. They just seem to bounce it around. Not being read up yet on 4e/5e, it just makes me wonder what the point of the exercise is to catch up on that, to know it sort of doesn't matter. Kind of an odd place to be in as I contemplate purchases and swapping out reading material for another.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The problem with the Great Tree isn't the structure of the cosmology, it's the content -- with deities living in different places than described before, or the fact that some of the planes themselves were different.
|
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
|
|
|
TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2020 : 02:01:37
|
| Cpthero2, yes. I think mortals perceive what they can understand. In the real world, some describe Heaven and Hell, but most if pressed would likely admit they really don't know. It's what they were taught and its based on our limited understanding. Just because characters can travel to the outer planes doesn't make them all that more knowable. The Outer Planes are the planes of thought and spirit. That being the case, a god could easily be in one place existing next to another in one perception and someplace completely different in another. They are by definition ephemeral and perhaps unknowable. This is to a large extent distinct from the Inner Planes, which are the planes of body and matter. |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2020 : 02:13:09
|
| While not a fan of the ruleset, I'll give 4e props for one idea regarding the planes. The idea that they were no longer limitless in size I think was a great change. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2020 : 03:09:51
|
Tom,
Fair enough. Hell, I can't even argue with any of the system then, to be frank. I mean, as you said, it is all a matter of perception. I think for that matter, I am sticking with my own way of doing it. Why not?
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
Cpthero2, yes. I think mortals perceive what they can understand. In the real world, some describe Heaven and Hell, but most if pressed would likely admit they really don't know. It's what they were taught and its based on our limited understanding. Just because characters can travel to the outer planes doesn't make them all that more knowable. The Outer Planes are the planes of thought and spirit. That being the case, a god could easily be in one place existing next to another in one perception and someplace completely different in another. They are by definition ephemeral and perhaps unknowable. This is to a large extent distinct from the Inner Planes, which are the planes of body and matter.
|
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
|
|
|
George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2020 : 01:05:01
|
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Master Krashos,
That is epic. Could I please get the tomes you have that from? I now want to read that stuff...a lot! :)
Best regards,
Sorry, made it up. I have a habit of doing that.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
|
|
|
cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2020 : 23:41:47
|
Master Krashos,
Dang it! haha
Well, it is awesome stuff though. As such, I am certain you won't mind me borrowing that then? ;)
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Master Krashos,
That is epic. Could I please get the tomes you have that from? I now want to read that stuff...a lot! :)
Best regards,
Sorry, made it up. I have a habit of doing that.
-- George Krashos
|
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
|
|
|
George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2020 : 09:13:10
|
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Master Krashos,
Dang it! haha
Well, it is awesome stuff though. As such, I am certain you won't mind me borrowing that then? ;)
Best regards,
Borrow away.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
|
|
|
ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2020 : 09:31:20
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The problem with the Great Tree isn't the structure of the cosmology, it's the content -- with deities living in different places than described before, or the fact that some of the planes themselves were different.
My problem with the Great Tree was that it effectively eliminated the areas of the planes that weren't part of a deity's domain and therefore made "god-less races," like the slaad, live within one or more deity's domains.
I prefer to think of the Great Tree as a street map that showed how the houses in town were related. But it had nothing to do with the areas not on the street map, which were represented by the Great Wheel. |
--
http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
|
|
|
neutrondecay
Acolyte
United Kingdom
37 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2020 : 10:31:43
|
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The problem with the Great Tree isn't the structure of the cosmology, it's the content -- with deities living in different places than described before, or the fact that some of the planes themselves were different.
My problem with the Great Tree was that it effectively eliminated the areas of the planes that weren't part of a deity's domain and therefore made "god-less races," like the slaad, live within one or more deity's domains.
I prefer to think of the Great Tree as a street map that showed how the houses in town were related. But it had nothing to do with the areas not on the street map, which were represented by the Great Wheel.
Way back in the heyday of the Planescape Mailing List, I remember several of us posting speculations of this kind. While some people really like unique, definite answers, a lot of us were happy to posit a multiverse in which there were many competing, mutually incompatible cosmologies, none of which could be definitively proved to be better or truer than the others. Some characters regard the Great Wheel as the 'true' cosmology, but others see Yggdrasil, or Mount Olympus, or waterways like Oceanus and Styx, or the Infinite Staircase as being the real structure of reality. The Great Tree and the 4e cosmology are just other views of the same ineffable conundrum.
nd |
|
|
|
cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2020 : 19:59:29
|
Acolyte neutrondecay,
I see what you mean there. I like how Eric described it, but I also reflect back on an idea that someone had regarding the mysteries of it all. We always see wizards, priests, etc. trying to find new ways to make 'x' happen. Using the Tree of the Wheel as the best option to explain something unexplanable to a third dimension being is great because it leaves the mysteries of exploration and discovery of said ways open. Having everything defined at the end of the day can be very bad.
Just ask Q from Start Trek: Voyager, S2E18, "Death Wish." ;)
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by neutrondecay
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The problem with the Great Tree isn't the structure of the cosmology, it's the content -- with deities living in different places than described before, or the fact that some of the planes themselves were different.
My problem with the Great Tree was that it effectively eliminated the areas of the planes that weren't part of a deity's domain and therefore made "god-less races," like the slaad, live within one or more deity's domains.
I prefer to think of the Great Tree as a street map that showed how the houses in town were related. But it had nothing to do with the areas not on the street map, which were represented by the Great Wheel.
Way back in the heyday of the Planescape Mailing List, I remember several of us posting speculations of this kind. While some people really like unique, definite answers, a lot of us were happy to posit a multiverse in which there were many competing, mutually incompatible cosmologies, none of which could be definitively proved to be better or truer than the others. Some characters regard the Great Wheel as the 'true' cosmology, but others see Yggdrasil, or Mount Olympus, or waterways like Oceanus and Styx, or the Infinite Staircase as being the real structure of reality. The Great Tree and the 4e cosmology are just other views of the same ineffable conundrum.
nd
|
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
5e Cosmology
