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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
 Posted - 22 Jan 2017 : 15:43:09
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I have pondered for some time about this and decided to start this topic to hopefully find a solution that is true to canon lore and still satisfy my as an answer for my Realms.
To start this I need to state a few fix points for this discussion.
1) there is no predestined fate known to any diety/powerfull being with only possible exception of Ao (I haven't decided on that one yet).
2) Savras is minor god of divination magic (school of magic) and is no exception to point 1).
3) most of the known prophecies are just information given by higher beings regarding their expected results in given theme (like chess players they can predict most likely outcome, especialy in topic they are personaly interested and participate in/prepare for). Some are just plain nonsense or propaganda.
The main problem is Roll of the Years. It is too far into the future for almost any being to predict with precision to the specific year. It also predict some major events that were clearly unknown to gods until they happened.
So for me there are currently two possible solutions for this and I do not like either of them. One is that they were a seers of visions from Ao himself. Two is that some entity/s tried to manipulate future by predetermining those prophecies (making others to look and prepare for them thus making them more likely to happen) but strangely had unknowingly hitted some major events.
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2017 : 15:46:05
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| Also I would like to use this scroll to collect any prophecies you know about so please feel free to write them here, possibly with source and page mentioned. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2017 : 17:00:14
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Two things... One is that we don't have a lot of known prophecies, in published canon, and I'm not aware of any of them that specifically relate to the Roll of Years.
The second is that a lot of times, where the names for the Roll of Years came from is not obvious until well after the fact. And those names don't always relate to major events. |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2017 : 18:27:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Two things... One is that we don't have a lot of known prophecies, in published canon, and I'm not aware of any of them that specifically relate to the Roll of Years.
The second is that a lot of times, where the names for the Roll of Years came from is not obvious until well after the fact. And those names don't always relate to major events.
Roll of the Years is based on prophecies for those years. For that it might not be obvious for us but there should be somebody who know the propecies it is based on.
I know there aren't many prophecies know in canon and that is exactly why I would like to know them :-) there might be a surprise for more of us... |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2017 : 18:49:03
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Ed's tied a few of the years to events in his Athalantar article in Dragon magazine #228 - there is a wonderful timeline toward to the end.
Also, Ed has stated several times in the past (and so has Eric & Krash, I think) that the names are 'regional', and although Alaundo's list is the most widely known, many rural areas and regions outside the 'Heartlands' have their own names, and even villages well within the Heartlands could have their own names for specific years because of some event that was major to them, but went unnoticed to the greater Realms. And some of those names could even be the same as ones used elsewhere for different years (adding to the confusion).
All that being said, I think Alaundo's roll of Years is the Main timeline, and no matter what other prophesies come true (or don't), the events he alludes to come true (although to what extent DOES depends on other events that unfold). In Doctor Who parlance, think of them as 'Fixed Points in Time'. I think Shar's Black Chronology is a branch off the main timeline (which Ao has now rectified), but the events Alaundo alluded to would still have happened, however great or small.
The only other Major mention of prophesies is in the Lands of Intrigue material... but not necessarily from that exact source. I'm pretty sure it was in one of the two Calimshan-specific books (who's titles constantly allude me). There also that 'Black Star' thingie from the OGB, that people have loved to theorize over for the past 30 years.
I also think that an Overpower (Domain Lord) can 'adjust' the memories of people within their Domain, whether it be Ao, or the 'Dark Powers' in the Domains of Dread in the Shadowfell, or even the Archfey who control their own 'courts' in the Feywild (although this might happen as part of something greater than them, as it does in Ravenloft). I'm not sure how this affects prophesy, but we've seen instances where they've 'fudged' people's memories of something on a large scale. The one thing it could do is make people look back at the Roll of Years and not understand the name of a year, simply because their was a 'hiccup' in the Matrix (time paradox), and the related event was either erased, or forgotten about. I think this is the reason why the Dawn Cataclysm is so confusing, and often contradicts itself - people are remembering bits from a timeline that was altered (which is why gods FROWN heavily upon changing time in any way - they could accidentally erase themselves, or other deities).
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 22 Jan 2017 18:54:08 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2017 : 19:11:14
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The Roll of Years extends to what will be 2163 DR.
2163DR is named the Year of Saddened Magicians. To me this suggests a final end to magic in the Realms, or at least a point beyond which magical divinations and prophecies will no longer function. It doesn't (necessarily) mean the end of the world, only the end of the calendar - the Realms may simply continue onward past 2163DR just like our world simply continued onward past the "final year" of the ancient Mayan calendar.
Augathra the Mad's prophecies have not always proven accurate, indeed they have not always proven to be relevant, meaningful, or even comprehensible. The woman was utterly batty, after all, and some segments from the Roll of Years have been lost throughout the ages or have described what appear to be "alternate" timelines. And remember that the good Orwellian folks at Wizbro always control the present Realms, thus they control both the past of the Realms and the future of the Realms. The Roll of Years is basically just a load of drivel. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 22 Jan 2017 19:15:45 |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2017 : 20:51:37
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| Thank you for the link about end of the Roll but lets just say that there was a reason why authors (Ed) planted this notion into the setting (probably as a hint for GM's). I am not looking into design answer but in-game one. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2017 : 01:40:00
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The Realms were first published circa 1356DR, so a terminus at 2163DR would be over 800 years distant.
Perhaps Ed, TSR, WotC, et al simply saw no need to run the Roll any further. Eight centuries is plenty of room for time-travel and visions and whatnot, and already properly "inaccessible" to the denizens of the Realms. Should the Roll have extended to nine centuries, nine thousand centuries, nine million centuries? What difference would it make? How could it possibly have any meaning to Augathra/Alaundo, how could they even communicate it to others? Imagine how our world must look to people living in 1217AD, they might indeed be very interested in knowing that the Black Plague is coming soon but they'd have little interest (or ability to comprehend) things like computers and cellphones, social media and video games, orbital stations, modern politics, modern politicians, modern nations, and modern wars.
Perhaps Augathra's last visions (of 2163DR) were offered on her deathbed, she simply didn't exist long enough to keep going indefinitely. Or perhaps each vision exacted a terrible toll upon her mind and body, she may have been strained to her limits and unable (or unwilling) to continue forward into her ever-more-distant future. Perhaps a deity or power forbade further examination. Perhaps the fate of the world simply hadn't (then) been "written" yet so there was nothing more to see or at least nothing more could be seen clearly. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2017 : 03:56:16
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| Since the link is defunct, can anyone offer anything that indicates the 2163 date is at all canon? |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2017 : 13:56:37
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It's not. The official published list only went to 1600 DR.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2017 : 02:32:29
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| Much "official published" lore has vanished from WotC's site. I recall my link went to wikipedia, but the page author cited links to wizards.com. Can't recall if the links were "official published" wizard stuff or if they were chatter from the forums. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2017 : 03:27:01
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Talking about this, is there a list explaining why the years have those names?
I mean, for instance, 1373 DR is named the Year of Rogue Dragons because (I presume) the actions of Brimstone, the Talons of Justice and the other dragons who helped to destroy the Dracorage mythal (The Rage of Dragons novel series).
1385 DR is called the Year of the Blue Fire because the blue flames of the Spellplague.
And 1479 DR is called the Year of the Ageless One because the impact the actions of Aoth Fezim (a guy who could not age because of his spellscar) had on the Realms as a whole. (Brotherhood of the Griffon series)
It would be cool if there is a list explaining why the years have those names, or at least most of them. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 24 Jan 2017 03:34:24 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2017 : 03:32:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Much "official published" lore has vanished from WotC's site. I recall my link went to wikipedia, but the page author cited links to wizards.com. Can't recall if the links were "official published" wizard stuff or if they were chatter from the forums.
The only link I've found goes to the Realms-L list, which obviously is no longer around. |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2017 : 03:39:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Talking about this, is there a list explaining why the years have those names?
I mean, for instance, 1373 DR is named the Year of Rogue Dragons because (I presume) the actions of Brimstone, the Talons of Justice and the other dragons who helped to destroy the Dracorage mythal (The Rage of Dragons novel series).
1385 DR is called the Year of the Blue Fire because the blue flames of the Spellplague.
And 1479 DR is called the Year of the Ageless One because the impact the actions of Aoth Fezim (a guy who could not age because of his spellscar) had on the Realms as a whole. (Brotherhood of the Griffon series)
It would be cool if there is a list explaining why the years have those names, or at least most of them.
Don't get your hopes up for such a list. There's usually multiple events for each year, and the truth of it is generally unknown to mortals.
To quote Eric L Boyd, replying to an assertion than the Year of Lightning Storms was "definitely" about events in Calimshan:
quote:
Never assume you know "the truth" about the motivation for a year name in the Roll of Years. In fact, I deliberately try to pose as many possibilities for each year name as a I can.
There are at least three interpretations of the Year of Lightning Storms in print, and probably a dozen more that the DM could come up with. (Events in Blackstaff, Events in Calimshan, continent-wide rain of meteors mentioned in DoF are the 3 I'm thinking of.)
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Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2017 : 03:45:56
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Such a shame. But I guess, is the correct thing to do, to left for the DM to chose whatever s/he wants about his/her campaign.
Is there a full list of year names? I know only a few ones. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 24 Jan 2017 03:46:40 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2017 : 04:23:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Such a shame. But I guess, is the correct thing to do, to left for the DM to chose whatever s/he wants about his/her campaign.
Is there a full list of year names? I know only a few ones.
We have it here, in various formats. The zip file contains the original files posted on the WotC site, circa 2000, and a couple cleaned up versions of the same list.
True story: I was working on compiling my own list of Year names, and had found a couple dozen, when WotC put out that official list and made my prior efforts a waste of time.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2017 : 18:09:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Talking about this, is there a list explaining why the years have those names?
I mean, for instance, 1373 DR is named the Year of Rogue Dragons because (I presume) the actions of Brimstone, the Talons of Justice and the other dragons who helped to destroy the Dracorage mythal (The Rage of Dragons novel series).
1385 DR is called the Year of the Blue Fire because the blue flames of the Spellplague.
And 1479 DR is called the Year of the Ageless One because the impact the actions of Aoth Fezim (a guy who could not age because of his spellscar) had on the Realms as a whole. (Brotherhood of the Griffon series)
It would be cool if there is a list explaining why the years have those names, or at least most of them.
We only know that those names are based on prophecies of Maglas, Aughtra and Alaundo. As we do not have those prophecies we can only assume which event was the source of the name. For lot of years we have little or no knowledge of events that would fit the name but you could consider it a hint for GM. But the reason why I have brought this up is that all major events are correctly placed and the year is named for it. That suggest uncanny precision of those prophecies. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2017 : 19:24:28
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Well, there is my idea.
Maybe destiny is not set in stone, but there is the potential of certain things to happen regardless of destiny. So, even if gods are not capable of accurately divine predestined stuff, stochastic predictions of great accuracy can be made by researching for the right information. We know the Realms has a concept of a causality in the sense of a continuum spacetime (as the First Sundering went backwards and forwards in time to create Evermeet), and even if this timeline is highly mutable (to give DMs fully control of their campaigns), maybe there are stuff that have higher "potentiability" to happen regardless of the mutability of the timeline.
So, if someone use divination to search for the right portents it can determine the certain events that have the higher probability to happen in a given year, and name the year accordingly.
However, due it is an stochastic prediction and not just seeing the future, diviners cannot know how, why and what would happen. They can just calculate what event "can happen" according to given probabilities. This would make divination a good tool to "know" stuff, but not a key to omniscience (and would also explain why some years have multiple events that can explain a name).
This would also explain why gods who do not have the gift of prescience cannot know about stuff that has not happened yet. They cannot calculate stuff if they not have access to the certain events that could give them the percent of probability for the "main" events to happen.
Also, divining magic would only give you the results of the probable events, but cannot give you the actual facts about them, or the reason of why they would happen. In other words, you can see that the actions of Aoth Fezin, the ageless guy, will have a greater impact in the year 1479, but you cannot see the actual actions that led to that impact. You can only calculate with great —but not 100% exact—accuracy the results of those actions with the higher chance of probability to happen.
EDIT: This can also mean that if some event has lower chances to happen (like those events that have a "chance of one in a million" to happen) cannot be divined with magic. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 24 Jan 2017 19:46:17 |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2017 : 00:58:35
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| In addition to all that's already been said. The roll of year names going both back in time and forward were created by a handful of us at the behest of Steven Schend. We were only asked to come up with interesting sounding names. We came up with way more than Steven expected and so he used the names to fill out even more years. He was the one that decided the order. To the best of my knowledge he found names to match up with some known events for years that hadn't been named, a few commonalities that he thought would work well next or near each other, but otherwise just started plugging in names. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2017 : 01:40:59
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I see, thanks for the clarification. I bet it was fun to do that kind of creativity exercise.
Since you're here, I would ask: is that claim of the Roll going as far as 2163 DR (Year of Saddened Magicians) true? Since the original link died (not even in Wayback Machine, sadly) I cannot confirm that on my own. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2017 : 01:52:01
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| Nope we filled in -700 to 1600. Anything beyond that was filled in after us and I'm not sure by whom or how official it is. |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2017 : 09:36:23
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I have just found out that Maglas is not one of the authors of Roll of the Years. I haven't found any info on when and where he lived as only mention about him is in Sammaster's entry as he studied heavily collection of his prophecies named Chronicles of Years to Come - that is what confused me, it is a different tome.
Does anybody know more about him?
I have also looked at dates when both authors lived and it seems that their reach was around 1000 years each - Augathra started around -700 DR and Alaundo continued on her work at 75 DR and wrote them till 1600 DR. If we presume that Augathra made prophecies until about 400 DR then it is about half for each with Alaundo reaching further into future. Quite possibly with her worsening condition her prophecies might not be continuous and she might make leaps and jumps in time making Alaundo more of the editor who filled the gaps and created the set as we know it now. |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2017 : 09:50:28
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I thought Maglas and his work was just associated with the Cult of the Dragon prophecy of "dead dragons shall rule the world entire" or some such, as interpreted by Sammaster, and later reinterpreted as "...no rulers but the dead. Dragons shall rule the world entire ...” by Severin.
Just checked out the 2e Cult of the Dragon book, he is indeed responsible for the prophecy:
"And naught will be left save shattered thrones, with no rulers but the dead. Dragons shall rule the world entire, and . . ."
which was misinterpreted by Sammaster as "dead dragons".
Don't think he had any other major prophecies recorded in the lore. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
Edited by - KanzenAU on 29 Jan 2017 09:51:40 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2017 : 19:01:42
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"And naught will be left save shattered thrones, with no rulers but the dead".
Sounds to me like they'd make excellent allies for the Eminence of Araunt.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 29 Jan 2017 19:02:02 |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2017 : 21:55:10
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That is actualy only part of this prophecy (most of the times it is mentioned it is started and ended with dots ...) and that is from his book named Chronicles of Years to Come. Sad that we know so little about that.
If I would have to guess than he might be refering to that meteor shower Toril got in 1374 Year of the Lightning Storms right after Dracorage was destroyed. It would take at least a 100 years for new dragons to grow into a problem and new reign of dragons should start at 1400+. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2427 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2017 : 17:22:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
2163DR is named the Year of Saddened Magicians. To me this suggests a final end to magic in the Realms, or at least a point beyond which magical divinations and prophecies will no longer function.
If it was "Year of Saddened Cooks", would this suggest the end of prepared food as we know it, all over the world?  |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2017 : 18:36:43
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
2163DR is named the Year of Saddened Magicians. To me this suggests a final end to magic in the Realms, or at least a point beyond which magical divinations and prophecies will no longer function.
If it was "Year of Saddened Cooks", would this suggest the end of prepared food as we know it, all over the world?
It could simply suggest a major failing of oregano crops. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2017 : 00:40:47
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Using my necromantic spells!!
I'm reading the LFR adventures that take place in Returned Abeir, to expand my lore of the place. One of those adventures (Stir Not the World's Doom) takes place in Darkturret, a ruin in Gontal that was "displaced" from normal time and space when hit by the Spellplague. There is one room there conected to the past, and other to a specific year in the future: 2421 DR. The room in the past is connected to a time period when Mystryl was alive and well.
There is a group of adventurers from the future in the 2421 DR, among them a human wizard. So, I can assure that 2163 DR was not the end of magic. Maybe is just a viagra crisis or the oregano stuff... |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 26 Feb 2017 00:44:42 |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2019 : 00:25:45
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| In Empires of the Shining Sea on p.7 there is a list of nonfullfilled prophecies of Nar'ysr |
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Prophecies from Roll of the Years
