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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Jan 2017 : 19:29:34
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A LOT of what was written about in 4e is inconsistent with former editions, sometimes inconsistent with itself, and has been over-written (made 'untrue') by the new edition. Thus, 4e is in a real 'state of limbo' canon-wise; I think everyone - writers included - just ignore the whole thing at this point.
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
ummmmm. I'm not sure but I think she's dead too.
Well, I guess I'm out of luck then.
I disliked the 2nd (new) movie so much I didn't bother to go see the last one, which is a first for me. I guess sooner or later, all franchises lose their charm.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Jan 2017 19:30:26 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36880 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2017 : 19:52:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
A LOT of what was written about in 4e is inconsistent with former editions, sometimes inconsistent with itself, and has been over-written (made 'untrue') by the new edition. Thus, 4e is in a real 'state of limbo' canon-wise; I think everyone - writers included - just ignore the whole thing at this point.
Sadly, there was 3E lore that was the same way -- a lot that was inconsistent with prior editions, and some that was inconsistent with itself. The Shadow Weave, in particular, changed every time something was printed about it -- and I recall one case where Rich Baker said that the information in a sourcebook released about a month prior was incorrect. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12024 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2017 : 23:00:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
A LOT of what was written about in 4e is inconsistent with former editions, sometimes inconsistent with itself, and has been over-written (made 'untrue') by the new edition. Thus, 4e is in a real 'state of limbo' canon-wise; I think everyone - writers included - just ignore the whole thing at this point.
Sadly, there was 3E lore that was the same way -- a lot that was inconsistent with prior editions, and some that was inconsistent with itself. The Shadow Weave, in particular, changed every time something was printed about it -- and I recall one case where Rich Baker said that the information in a sourcebook released about a month prior was incorrect.
Yeah, I loved the stuff where the shadow weave and shadow magic were being tied.... and yet the shadow weave was specific to Toril and shadow magic was linked to the plane of shadow/shadowfell. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36880 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2017 : 02:00:40
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They also changed how Shadow Weave magic and regular Weave magic interacted at pretty much every opportunity they had.
I don't know if people at WotC weren't talking to each other as they made this stuff up, or if it was such a poorly thought out concept that they couldn't agree on a single version of it... But my money is on the latter. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1566 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2017 : 10:26:46
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Considering that Mystryl was born from the clash of Shar and Selune, I always headcanoned the Shadow Weave as Shar simply enhancing the parts she contributed to the formation of the Weave. We didn't really see it much before Mystra II because apart from the Shadow Weave being a gift Shar bestowed to her mightiest servants (Telly and co.), the neutrality of Mystryl and Mystra 1 meant that neither sister was willing to rock the boat too much.
Enter the neutral-good, mortal-tainted Mystra, herself relying on the "wisdom" of her fool chosen while lacking practical experience (she was level 12 when she ascended), and Shar pretty much decided 'screw it, not going to wait for my snotty sister to gank me with fake!Mystra's help'. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36880 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2017 : 14:59:11
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I don't think it had anything to do with Mystra II's alignment. She had the same Chosen and mandates Mystra I had.
I think it was purely because someone at WotC said, "Hey, shadows are kewl!"
Thus we got Shade, the unstoppable Shadovars, the Shadow Weave, and the ironic thrust into the spotlight of a deity that prefers darkness.
And other, established threats to the Realms were all shoved to the side or ignored in favor of something shadow-related.
Note that all of that stuff came out during 3E -- the only time Mystra II's alignment was ever a factor in anything was during a 2E novel, and she was roundly slapped down for it in that novel. It was never reflected in-game in any way, and never appeared anywhere other than that one novel.
And none of that changes the fact that WotC kept changing the Shadow Weave. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 21 Jan 2017 15:02:41 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2017 : 18:30:32
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There was a novel, originally written for Birthright, that was later shoe-horned into The Realms. Birthright has the concept of the 'Shadow-World', and in order to make the novel work, FR wound up with the 'Shadow Weave', which probably seemed like a great idea at first... until they started to realize that it butted-heads with Ed's original concept for 'The Weave' (which he didn't even call that - it was just "a magical 'web-work' of energy that surrounds and permeates Faerūn"). So initially, it was much more like Ley-lines in Ed's mind.
From conversations with Ed (and answers he has given here on these forums), he feels/felt that certain writers ran (and perhaps over-ran) with some of his ideas, while other parts got completely ignored, so that over time his 'perfectly balanced and running machine' became lop-sided and inconsistent, lore-wise. The Shadow-Weave could have been made to work, since he is brilliant enough to leave enough loose-ends to be able to work nearly anything in, but the constant changing of what the Weave (and Shadow Weave) were/are, and their relationship to each other, nullified any logical 'fix' for its existence.
If 'The Weave' = 'Life' (as Ed pictured it), then the Shadow-Weave should have = anti-Life, but it didn't. Sometimes it did, but most of the time it was just whatever the current writer wanted it to be. Plus, The Weave was supposed to be a blend of ight & darkness, so it couldn't be The Weave's opposite, but sometimes it was prtrayed that way, and sometimes it was portrayed as being just 1/2 of it, and still other times it got very hazy definitions like 'its the backside of the Weave', or, 'its the spaces between the Weave' (which sounds cool in-theory, but we never really got a mechanical description of how that works).
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Jan 2017 18:31:40 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2017 : 18:31:51
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Split for brevity...
I think it was the fans that first came up with the theory that The Shadow-Weave was just the Shadow-energy Shar wrested back from The Weave when Mystryl fell, and she had slowly been drawing her energy back out of it to build her own Weave, somehow without (or maybe with?) Mystra not knowing about it (which works really well, considering the alignment changes over time). Basically, it amounted to the opposite of what happened to Tyche - the old Mystryl was being split back-apart into her basic components - the energy of Shar, and the energy of Selūne. The whole problem with that is that they've always left Selūne out of all the 2e/3e 'god strife', when she should have been a central figure in it. (I think) Rich Baker had the idea they were two totally separate 'Weaves', which really doesn't work so well, when you consider past (EG) lore. It actually works better when you say the two are integrated, and it wasn't so much Shar separating her part, but rather, re-exerting control over it.
That gives us an interesting scenario akin to what happened when the Transporter split Kirk into two halves, and we see that neither could survive without the other. Same thing happened to The Hulk at one point, when it and Banner got separated. That means Mystra was starting to 'fade away' since the fall of Netheril, slowly losing touch with parts of herself (much like how Hal 2000 was singing 'Daisy' at the end of 2001: A Space Odyssey.) By the time we got Mystra 2.0 after the ToT, we basically had a 'lobotomized' god, who probably didn't even know she was missing half herself (which could explain how so much was getting past her). Not so much that the 'Shadow' had been removed from The Weave, but rather, she was just losing her connection to those parts of it (I picture Shar snipping strands of web, slowly over time, like a surgeon).
Unfortunately, thats all fine and good, and we can theorize whatever we like, but none of that works in the context of some of the canon, and most especially not in regards to the Return of the Archwizards, where it was introduced. It was written as some sort of superior 'uber magic' that could be layered on top of 'regular magic', which makes no sense, since the were talking about a Mythal in the novel - a Mythal that should have already had BOTH types of magic in it, since it was built with the original, undamaged Weave.
Unless... when was the Evereska Weave created? Maybe Arcane Mythals only have the one half, whereas the older, High-Magic ones have both? That might work... 
But then we still have all the weirdness where you can still cast all the shadow spells, even if you don't use the Shadow Weave, which makes no sense. They changed the lore dramatically in 3e, but they didn't bother to change how (that part of) the magic works. They never said 'only certain spells can be cast with the two different Weaves', which really throws any sort of logic for their existence right out the window. And then we have the Demon-Weave... another 'Weave' thats just redundant with the others (and creates some enigmatic '3rd energy source', in theory).
Ugh  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Jan 2017 18:38:46 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6680 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2017 : 01:49:49
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The great joy of "kewl ideas". I suppose you have to understand that our perspective and discussion revolves around shared-world writing, logical consistency with the story and an acknowledgement of "what had gone before". The game writers at WotC toward the end of 3E were struggling mightily with the "what had gone before" part in terms of accounting for all the realmslore, and having to juggle that with a need to come up with more game stuff (feats, spells, character classes, et. al.) to sell books. Pulling in the entirely opposite direction was the fiction department who just wanted to write stories that sold books and were clearly of the view that "blow up the world" stories were their main option in that regard. I picture the last years of FR 3E as akin to a rodeo with the game writers struggling to stay on the bucking bronco of the fiction department and trying (failing) to gel the stories with the game that was always the tarrasque in the room. Throw in a liberal amount of internal company politics, big egos and people trying to "get ahead" and you get 4E, the time jump and an attempt to clear the decks. And that's how the goose got killed. They've cloned the goose now, but it limps.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36880 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2017 : 04:12:53
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
The great joy of "kewl ideas". I suppose you have to understand that our perspective and discussion revolves around shared-world writing, logical consistency with the story and an acknowledgement of "what had gone before". The game writers at WotC toward the end of 3E were struggling mightily with the "what had gone before" part in terms of accounting for all the realmslore, and having to juggle that with a need to come up with more game stuff (feats, spells, character classes, et. al.) to sell books. Pulling in the entirely opposite direction was the fiction department who just wanted to write stories that sold books and were clearly of the view that "blow up the world" stories were their main option in that regard. I picture the last years of FR 3E as akin to a rodeo with the game writers struggling to stay on the bucking bronco of the fiction department and trying (failing) to gel the stories with the game that was always the tarrasque in the room. Throw in a liberal amount of internal company politics, big egos and people trying to "get ahead" and you get 4E, the time jump and an attempt to clear the decks. And that's how the goose got killed. They've cloned the goose now, but it limps.
-- George Krashos
Considering the way canon was kicked to the curb at the beginning of 3E, I think that's when the struggle started. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2017 : 04:16:56
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NICE 
I am WAY behind with making my maps, but I'm still plugging along (have to go up to the hospital for several hours every day now). I 'accidentally' started another weird one...
Hopefully someone will find it useful... I'm pretty sure Dazzler at least will like it (Hint: I found another place to 'park' Abeir, and its pretty awesome... if I do say so myself).
As to how that ties into the thread (just now realizing I started in mid-thought) - the only way FR will be 'brought back' (limping cloned goose that it is ) is if WE keep it alive, by constantly working on it, even if its in bits & drabs. We have to keep it interesting, by having these interesting conversations about the lore (and how to 'fix' it).
The Realms is still breathing, but just barley. We are the CPR. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 Jan 2017 03:56:26 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2501 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2017 : 08:39:46
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Talking about the Shadow Weave... it was restored in 5e? If it was, is still contradicting itself? Or we just got the regular Weave?
I know this is offtopic, but I don't have all the Sundering novels and I got curious. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 22 Jan 2017 08:40:13 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6383 Posts |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6383 Posts |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2017 : 14:43:51
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quote:
The weave was created around -30000 DR. Around -4000 DR it gained a human sentience that inspired the religion of mystryl.
SKYNET!!! |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
Edited by - Brimstone on 22 Jan 2017 14:45:04 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6383 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2017 : 04:11:58
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Yeah, its kind of how I picture my whole theory of 'Overminds' working (the collective consciousness of a species, which causes the ascendance of proto-gods).
Basically, any time you have 'energy' of any sort in a constant formation (and in constant motion), that is of a similar nature (magic, human brainwaves, elven brainwaves, 'negative (shadow) energy', etc), a consciousness begins to form, but depending on the level of power, it could take many centuries to coalesce into something resembling sentience. For whatever strange reason, size/power works reversely proportionate to how quickly it forms, so a simple energy pattern (like a hologram) might only take a few years to form its own consciousness (and we actually have one of those - a sentient illusion - in canon). Something the size of a star, or the magical weave of Toril, could take millennia.
its kind of funny, because I insinuated (above) that Mystra 1.0 was sort of 'special' (trying to tip-toe around being PC here), and its actually canon that the new incarnation of Mystryl - Mystra - did indeed land inside a 'special' girl (in Cormyr, IIRC... although it wouldn't have been Cormyr at the time). So if that was the case - that the 'lessened', damaged Weave connecting with someone like that because it was of a similar... nature... then what does that say about Midnight?
By the time the ToT rolled around, Shar had already grabbed most of her power back and was ready to cut that final string. That means at no point in time was either Mystra 'playing with a full deck'. The new and improved Mystra 3.0 (in 5e they should have just renamed her Mystryl... 2.0) could possibly have the totality of the Weave back in her grasp - positive and negative (arcane & shadow). I'd really like it if they did more with this - possibly representing her as a two-faced goddess, or some-such (with duel natures). But they won't... they don't really want to define anything in stone in 5e, and most certainly NOT the deities. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 Jan 2017 04:13:04 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6383 Posts |
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BIG Blackstaff lore in latest Dragon Talk podcast
