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Sylrae
Learned Scribe
Canada
313 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Jan 2017 : 21:58:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think the larger issue with 4E's online setup was the fact they never had everything that was initially promised, and it was an all-or-nothing approach. You couldn't pay a lesser amount and just get the "magazines" and nothing else; you had to pay the full price to get the "magazines" and the online rules and their character thing and whatever else they had in there. For those of us who didn't embrace the 4E rules, paying for unwanted access to them was not a palatable option (and the digital "magazines" have been very underwhelming, as well).
This is what D&D Offerings would look like in a good world:
- Dragon Magazine, Dungeon Magazine:Full issues like Pre-4e, available monthly, digital distribution. If subscribed, you keep the articles.
Free Dragon & Dungeon Articles: A small subset of free stuff and an index of stuff in the magazines. Encourage people to buy the magazine (individual issues or subscription). Magazine Issues would come with 1-time redemption keys for digital access in the tool.
- Hard Copy Rulebooks?: I'm not sure these are still needed frankly. If you go digital releases only, you can update the books with errata automatically. If something is broken, you can fix it, like in software. But if you do have physical books, the digital copy should be free with purchase.
- Setting Books: Not only new books, but old ones as well, made available digitally (both in pdf and in app). Consider updating old setting books to other editions of rules so people have incentive to buy them even if not using the older ruleset.
- Adventure Paths: Like Pathfinder. Longer versions of the APs WotC has been licensing out of late, with digital copies available (PDF and App)
- Digital web/android/ios app for searchable rules reference, game running, character building. Ideally works offline for purchased content. Contains all of the rules. Most content is locked down. Homebrew can be entered in and shared through a store like Steam, and used in-app. App prompts you to rate homebrew on a variety of categories, so people know what's good. A subscription would unlock all content. Physical books would come with a key for permanent digital access to those particular books. Specific book access in the app could be bought one at a time, for reasonable prices. Access to the content you own could be shared with like, 15 other people, for 12h at a time.
- Start with the newest edition, and gradually expand app-support back through prior editions as finances allow.
D&D would be synonymous with the app (mobile and web). WotC's D&D Revenue would grow significantly based on the market share they've already got. It would also dramatically cut down on piracy. People would inevitably decrypt the offline data files, so eventually it would be cracked, you could set it up so that a cracked version meant using out of date game files at least; and you'd be making enough revenue that you're more than staying afloat.
D&D as a social in-person (or online) narrative RPG omni-accessible digital tabletop RPG.
If you wanted to go (instead or also) full social videogame (you definitely could), you'd be looking to roughly mimic Bioware's NWN 1 gameplay + server + DM client + builder (with improvements taken from Pillars of Eternity/Torment/Divinity Original Sin 1/2, but with voicechat, but with homebrew adventures and character content, and unlike NWN where such stuff was free as in user mods, you could allow people to sell their adventures and such and take a cut while making it clear you don't provide support for stuff sold in the marketplace by anyone other than WotC - the sellers are like people making their own apps for android sold on the play store. And of course, WotC would sell new singleplayer and multiplayer modules individually. No MMO style gameplay required (but you could have the option just like Neverwinter Nights, without having to own the servers yourself - you could even allow them to charge what they want (with guidelines) under a couple different pay models and you take a cut of the profits) and instead encourage the singleplayer and up to 10 player coop RPG experiences.
I would be spending far more than $15 a month on either (or both) of those, even though I would not pay a monthly subscription for content I did not own or get to keep. (But the subscription happy folks certainly could pay a monthly fee for access to EVERYTHING so long as they keep up their payments) - though going pay per purchase might cut down on the piracy. The pirates would have to buy stuff and coordinate (they're a fact of life, you can't remove piracy indefinitely, and going physical books only doesn't accomplish that either.
Plus, Novels, Audiobooks (I buy a new D&D Novel Audiobook on audible every month), Comic Books, TV and Movies (Copy Marvel's MCU Approach and just do it right for once) I'd see a new Forgotten Realms Cinematic Universe movie 6-8 times a year if they were as consistently good as the Marvel movies (And marvel was nearly bankrupt 16 years ago!) For TV, well I don't watch live TV, but I do use netflix. And (until my contract ends) I do *HAVE* live TV and would PVR it. I'd watch "City of Splendors: Waterdeep" the TV show, with Elaine Cunningham's novel as season 1. They could do like Marvel did with Daredevil, Jessica Jones, and Luke Cage, and have low level adventurers with their own TV series.
Just, so much untapped potential, and the only explanation I can think of is they don't know what they're doing.
They could make a killing if they just got their heads out of their asses.
The videogame version would make more money than digital tabletop gaming; but the demographics aren't necessarily the same, and I would want both. I'd play the non-videogame version when I was able to get the guys together in-person, and play the videogame version otherwise.
Hell. If they really didn't think it had potential and were worried about losing money, I would preorder the thing if they made it clear they knew what they were doing.
But that's just the opinion of a 29 year old long-time gamer and former business software & web developer.
If they were going to make this? I'd certainly be interested in buying it or working on it. Not sure I'd be willing to move across the border to Seattle though.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly RupertIt also didn't help that the kneejerk reaction to the piracy of 4E material was to pull all pdfs from everywhere, regardless of edition. Not only did they cut off a revenue stream by nixing pdfs of prior editions, they also pissed off people that had paid for those pdfs, with the promise that they'd be forever available.
And even though they've started selling pdfs from prior editions again, access to the previously purchased ones has not been restored. It's not a huge deal for me; I've got multiple copies of those pdfs scattered all over the place (external hard drives, thumb drives, old hard drives no longer in use, some on one of my tablets, etc). But the principle of it still irritates the bejeebers out of me.
You and me both, Wooly. There's a whole bunch of Ravenloft PDFs I bought that I still don't have access to. |
Sylrae's Forgotten Realms Fan-Lore Index, with public commenting access to make for easier improvement (WIP) |
Edited by - Sylrae on 13 Jan 2017 22:49:28 |
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EltonRobb
Learned Scribe
USA
193 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2017 : 16:04:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Sylrae
Just, so much untapped potential, and the only explanation I can think of is they don't know what they're doing.
They could make a killing if they just got their heads out of their asses.
I quite agree. They don't know what they are doing. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2017 : 17:03:19
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I thinks the situation is more like this:
4e - "We KNOW what we are doing. It doesn't matter what the fans want, we are smarter than them."
5e - "What have we done! We don't know anything! Don't produce any product that anyone anywhere on the internet says something disparaging about!"
Plus, your own future starts to look rather bleak when you have no more 'scapegoats' to point at during review time. Right now the IP needs gobs of cashflow and nurturing to be great again, and I just don't see that happening. I also think resetting FR to 1350 or so (soft reboot, where everything still counts unless over-written) should have been the way to go in 5e, because the old fanbase is still disgruntled, and the newer fans are just confused by it all. Of course, that would require authors and designers to do TONS of homework (or have someone amazing - like EG - act as 'traffic cop' and continuity editor.. with help from the 'CORE' club). D&D still has potential, but I'm not so sure they can fix FR at this point, mostly because they're unwilling to commit the necessary resources to do so, and there's nowhere else to turn, setting-wise.
You know what might work? licensing another IP for D&D - one thats already hugely popular, like GOT. I'd say GoT would be PERFECT, except that it doesn't really have much in the way of 'monsters' (races or otherwise). I don't know any other one thats that popular ATM (HP maybe, but that would require an alternate Earth instead... which could be fun). I just don't see FR coming back from all this without a reboot. If comics can do it, why can't The Realms? Have guys who know the setting better than anyone re-write the history without all the mistakes and continuity gaffs. Of course, the guys who are qualified to do something like that are loathe to do something like that...
So NO, don't see anyway of making FR's future any brighter. D&D has a shot, but I think FR missed the boat already. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 15 Jan 2017 17:07:30 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2017 : 17:38:45
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I don't think it's that they don't know what they're doing (except their web folks).
I think it's more a combination of "we'd like to do this, but Hasbro won't let us," and the long-ago stated attitude of "we don't need to ask people what they want, we have our own ways of figuring that out."
And yes, a WotC staffer told me that, many moons ago, before I was wrongfully banned from their forums. It was in a discussion about things we had really enjoyed that WotC had decided not to continue; I suggested a survey or something to actually find out what we liked, and a WotC person came in and said they weren't going to do that because they had their own metrics they looked at to figure these things out.
Admittedly, looking at solid, real numbers of page clicks and units sold and things like that does give you an idea of what existing products were well-received... But it doesn't tell you a damn thing about what you haven't done that people want you to make or do. You can determine that people like Elminster, for example, by looking at what sells if it has his name or pic on it... But that doesn't tell you how many people are still waiting to learn about Susprina Arkenneld or Kalithra "Silvertresses" Tormal.
Even their web surveys now are still more about "hey, we did this, did you like it?" instead of "hey, of these things listed that we've not done, what's the one you'd like to see the most?" |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2017 : 21:32:40
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When I worked at Home depot, I was confused by the very low prices of their cedar decking. It was actually slightly cheaper than their pressure-treated, which was absurd (at lumber yards, its 2-3 times the price). I was told by my assistant manager that. "we don't make any money off the cedar decking - we sell it at cost, so we actually lose money on it" (theft, bad pieces, returns, etc).
Then he explained to me that we made a LOT of money off screws, nails, balusters, stair-stringers, etc, etc...
You see, in order to get people to come to you, and ONLY YOU, you have to be willing to take a few 'hits', in order to make money off the rest. It works precisely the same way for fast-food and their dollar menu; they're making all the money off the drinks (which only cost them pennies).
Some major corporations - like Hasbro - no longer want to sell all the stuff that 'completes' a line of products (IP), they ONLY want to sell the things they are making tons of money on. Thats akin to Home Depot only selling nails. It just doesn't work. The corporate muckity-mucks are so out of touch with reality* they just don't get this - all they do is look at 'the numbers' and say, "cancel all this not-so-profitable-stuff", and then leave to fly to their lunch engagement in Paris (ya know, just like the rest of us do). 
So, sadly, the problem isn't about D&D or The Forgotten Realms, its more widespread and systematic. And BTW, since I stopped working at HD, they've started to implement the same sort of ignorant policies (getting rid of lines of products that aren't 'top money-makers'). I guess the original owners are no longer in charge and they're now being run by these same type of imbeciles who've never actually lived in the real world.
So barring some sort of miracle, I'm just not seeing FR making any headway, which is a damn shame, since 5e D&D is (surprisingly) doing so damn well.
Mod edit: Let's leave the political commentary elsewhere, please.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 16 Jan 2017 02:30:47 |
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Sylrae
Learned Scribe
Canada
313 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2017 : 09:15:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think it's more a combination of "we'd like to do this, but Hasbro won't let us," and the long-ago stated attitude of "we don't need to ask people what they want, we have our own ways of figuring that out."
That may well be the case. The fact remains that at some level of management they've decided *NOT* to do things that would improve their brand and make their customers happy to keep giving them money. Business being run badly either because WotC is out of touch with reality and doing a bad job running the business, because Hasbro is out of touch with reality and forcing them to do a bad job running their business, or both.
As for the reset? The problem with that is people will strongly disagree about when to reset it to. I quite liked most of the 3e stuff, as well as the end of the 2e stuff. I would be more than a little annoyed if they went back further than 1375ish for that soft reset. Though I'm pretty sure nearly everyone can more or less agree that you wouldn't want to go later than that. |
Sylrae's Forgotten Realms Fan-Lore Index, with public commenting access to make for easier improvement (WIP) |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6404 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2017 : 09:26:23
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If i ever get the free time im going to reboot back to 1356 (thr beginning). Do a campaign guide that tells you how to run a game in the realms (how exchange rates work, travel times, weather, economy, adventures, levels, what to do when someone asks another who they worship, etc).
Then a series of regional guides focusing on a single region or nation at a time and providing oodles of detail on people, places, nobles, etc as it was in 1356.
Then each novel event or RSE has its own campaign guide for running a campaign during that event. They will not follow the event exactly, just tye flavour. Not a single god will appear in person and do anything (might be problematic for the ToT but i have an idea to solve that).
All campaign guides will come with complete updates for people and places effected (like settlements that are ravaged and what exists there now, npcs that died and what to replace them with).
That way its rebooted to 1350 but you can play at any point up to 1375.
Im working on it now and hope to do a region and campaign a year.
Its not a deific soap opera setting though. Its about the little people. |
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Sylrae
Learned Scribe
Canada
313 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2017 : 21:38:42
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
If i ever get the free time im going to reboot back to 1356 (thr beginning). Do a campaign guide that tells you how to run a game in the realms (how exchange rates work, travel times, weather, economy, adventures, levels, what to do when someone asks another who they worship, etc).
Then a series of regional guides focusing on a single region or nation at a time and providing oodles of detail on people, places, nobles, etc as it was in 1356.
Then each novel event or RSE has its own campaign guide for running a campaign during that event. They will not follow the event exactly, just tye flavour. Not a single god will appear in person and do anything (might be problematic for the ToT but i have an idea to solve that).
All campaign guides will come with complete updates for people and places effected (like settlements that are ravaged and what exists there now, npcs that died and what to replace them with).
That way its rebooted to 1350 but you can play at any point up to 1375.
Im working on it now and hope to do a region and campaign a year.
Its not a deific soap opera setting though. Its about the little people.
That sounds interesting. I can't help but feel like if you're updating the years last that it won't happen for many years though. This is just too large an undertaking for one guy to do on the side. At 1 a year, you won't even be done the regional books before 2030; and your books will only cover 1356.
Unless you're going to handle the novel events before regional books (A Better Idea, I think, as the guy who likes 1375 and all of the plot arcs started in 3e that got abandoned in favor of the 4e reboot. I like the City of Shade and the Elven return to Cormanthor, and the war against the Daemonfey) |
Sylrae's Forgotten Realms Fan-Lore Index, with public commenting access to make for easier improvement (WIP) |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6404 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2017 : 02:05:28
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Well, I'm hoping - once I start releasing my new (annotated and layered) maps for The Realms - someone (or group) will take that and run with it - use my 'snapshots' as the basis for very localized regional books (probably covering about the same amount of area/material as a Volo Guide would).
I would like to contribute to something (writing) like that as well, but I could never do it all by myself - it would never get done. The maps are chore enough. And its not only a 'time thing', I've found you really do need to work with a good group of people to 'reign you in' at times (its very easy to get lost within your own 'genius' when working alone, and go in some weird directions, or go overboard with connecting stuff). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Jan 2017 02:15:35 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6404 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2017 : 16:48:33
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Im always looking to work with other people but it never works out (i think interest wanes after a few emails, either that or im a horrible person to work with), interest in fan projects is usually very low anyway for whatever reason.
If you fancy working on the moonshaes or damara/vaasa or the campaign guide them just say so as im working on them to various degrees right now and could always do with maps, writing or ideas to help.
Damara will be on the first set of two maps, but only about 1/2 of Vassa*. The Moonshaes would be a long ways off - I did a perfectly good version of it on my Eastern Heartlands map (which is due to be re-released soon after the re-release of my Shaareach map - hopefully later today), and there was also a really nice official version of it in 4e.
As for the lore - I am not overly familiar with either area. My 'stomping grounds' would be the Wastes/Taan region, Erlkazar & The Shining Plains, and the Utter East (and I am going to have to find someone who archived all the wonderful material in the old WotC Utter East thread).
And possibly Kara-Tur, which I had started doing a timeline for years ago. Thats a YUGE area, though.
And I 'might' enjoy working on Sembia, for no other reason than the place is rather sparse on lore & locales.
You know... the TEGG group & Candlekeep should combine their resources and come-out with a 'Forgotten Realms Magazine', very similar to how the Candlekeep Compendiums were done, but laid-out like how Dragon Magazine was. I'd love to see series of articles that just concentrated on certain aspects of The Realms, like 'The Ruins' - we have tons of those with almost no detail. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2017 : 17:10:25
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| I'll never understand all the doom & gloom with people thinking that the Forgotten Realms is on its way to a creative oblivion. If we used the way-back machine and took a look at what the fanbase felt about the Realms it might have been similarly gloomy (especially 10 years ago), but compared to 10 years ago I think the Realms are in a better place... My anecdotal observations of the D&D scene locally have been showing that it is definitely is not in a slump right now, since 5E has been bringing 2E, 3E, and 4E players together at the same table... Also, it is reaching the next generation of players. Over the holidays three generations of my family were playing D&D together in the Forgotten Realms. The ages of the players at my table were 64, 52, 40, 35, 33, 12, and 8. So, I am optimistic and expect that the Realms will be alive and well in 10 or 20 years (at least at the gaming tables of my sons, nephews, and nieces). |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2017 : 17:19:50
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D&D is NOT in a slump - I've said as much above. FR definitely is, when you compared it to the product calendars of 2e or 3e.
I think the thing most of us are pointing out here is that its a damn shame that FR isn't doing better, when its now the core setting, and yet we're getting less material about the setting itself than ever before (except maybe 4e, although I recall quite a bit came out for it in the online resource).
And the novel dept is practically nonexistent, compared to the 1e/2e/3e heyday. I think 4e did massive damage to that, but it should be working its way back by now. I think the novels created way more 'setting fans' than the game ever did, and perhaps they just don't care about that aspect of RPGs anymore (people who BUY game products, but don't necessarily play the game). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Jan 2017 17:20:48 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6404 Posts |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2017 : 18:20:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
D&D is NOT in a slump - I've said as much above. FR definitely is, when you compared it to the product calendars of 2e or 3e.
I think the thing most of us are pointing out here is that its a damn shame that FR isn't doing better, when its now the core setting, and yet we're getting less material about the setting itself than ever before (except maybe 4e, although I recall quite a bit came out for it in the online resource).
And the novel dept is practically nonexistent, compared to the 1e/2e/3e heyday. I think 4e did massive damage to that, but it should be working its way back by now. I think the novels created way more 'setting fans' than the game ever did, and perhaps they just don't care about that aspect of RPGs anymore (people who BUY game products, but don't necessarily play the game).
Sorry Markustay, I didn't mean to imply that you thought D&D was in a slump. My post was a general response to the OP statement. I agree with your sentiment here 100%, and I don't think we'll ever go back to 2e/3e level of setting support. But, I very much have that feeling that since the Realms managed to survive 4e, we're back on the upswing.
Regarding the novels, you're right, I completely discounted that as part of my assesment. The Realms needs novels more than anything else, and novels are the most surefire way maintain the Realms in the hearts and minds of fans beyond the confines of video games or Pen-and-Paper RPGs. |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2017 : 18:38:29
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Even less hope from me, Dazzler..
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Damara will be on the first set of two maps, but only about 1/2 of Vassa*.
I just checked my 'revised plan' (which I had to search my whole hard-drive for... I saved it in the wrong damn folder!), and it seems the "Current map I am working on" is not nearly as 'current' as it should be - it still has the 'original plan' as an overlay. {sigh}
The new plan - with my revised version of Faerûn (a partial amalgam of 1e/2e and 3e maps) - lost a LOT of room at the edges of the map, so there was no longer a need to have a whole 'nother row of maps above the 'Heartlands' ones, which forced me to move the layout grid way south (so now there IS another row of squares above the main one again), and Vassa and Damara BOTH fall almost completely off that northern edge (ends just north of Impiltur).
I have to think like a (professional) game designer now - because technically I am - and I can't just 'make maps' the way I would like; I have to think ahead in a modular format, like how the 3e designers did when they created the 3e campaign map (but I put a HELL OF A LOT MORE thought into my version). They changed the world so it fit neatly (folded) in a box (book, actually). I put a grid on the whole damn world so that I won't run into overlap as I move forward, or have dozens of maps that are mostly water (eventually, that may be the case anyway, when I start mapping islands off the coast... and beyond). So when you lay all my (initial) maps out eventually, the top row will just barely include the whole of the Great Glacier, and the bottom row will just barely include the southern coast of Halruaa (and NOT get 'cut-off' the way it did in the 3e map!), and the same parameters for the East/West axis (although I had more leeway there, as to where to end everything in the Endless Wastes... since it won't really end there). It does (eventually) end neatly at the coast of Kara-Tur, though.
So no Vassa & Damara from me for awhile. On the bright side, most of the 'leg work' (research & layout) is getting done with the first two, so everything after that should just become faster and easier.
If I ever get done with my re-releases of older maps... {la' sigh}  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Jan 2017 18:39:21 |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2017 : 20:53:20
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In 10 years WotC has hypermarketed D&D to target audiences, with a staff controlling an automated adventure and art generator AI.
In 20 years forgotten realms resurges as a LARP add-on world. Kidz will be larping in the streets with augmented reality goggles and padded e-armors, changing their immediate surroundings into similar realmsian counterparts while chasing Stoneland goblins with virtual spells and steel. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Sylrae
Learned Scribe
Canada
313 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2017 : 21:17:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
In 20 years forgotten realms resurges as a LARP add-on world. Kidz will be larping in the streets with augmented reality goggles and padded e-armors, changing their immediate surroundings into similar realmsian counterparts while chasing Stoneland goblins with virtual spells and steel.
HA!
I think Shadowrun-Style AR Goggles aren't going to be so widespread in 20 years. Maybe by the late 2050s or 2060s. |
Sylrae's Forgotten Realms Fan-Lore Index, with public commenting access to make for easier improvement (WIP) |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2017 : 03:48:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
For those singing Paizo's virtues - just NOPE.*
I loved everything they did a couple years back, but they're staring to follow the same pattern that TSR did. Its only a matter of time before they stumble...
You may be right... I think it has started... |
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Sylrae
Learned Scribe
Canada
313 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2017 : 08:12:16
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From what I understand, Paizo's business model is primarily predicated on their subscription customers, not the ones who just buy books of character options. The books of character options are a bonus.
And I hear their adventures are still pretty good (I've only played/run their older adventures, which FWIW I quite enjoyed). The newest one is cthulian I believe.
I believe people are talking about a Pathfinder 2e, and the company has been testing the waters for such a thing, which is why Unchained came out. But, unlike Wizards, where each edition is a whole new game, from what I understand, Pathfinder 2e would be more of a "Pathfinder Revised" with collecting and rebalancing character options they've published for since 2009, and some minor rules updates.
If they put out a Pathfinder Revised, and it was better balanced but still compatible with the existing stuff and adventures? I'd absolutely pick up a new core book. |
Sylrae's Forgotten Realms Fan-Lore Index, with public commenting access to make for easier improvement (WIP) |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12093 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2017 : 23:29:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Sylrae
From what I understand, Paizo's business model is primarily predicated on their subscription customers, not the ones who just buy books of character options. The books of character options are a bonus.
And I hear their adventures are still pretty good (I've only played/run their older adventures, which FWIW I quite enjoyed). The newest one is cthulian I believe.
I believe people are talking about a Pathfinder 2e, and the company has been testing the waters for such a thing, which is why Unchained came out. But, unlike Wizards, where each edition is a whole new game, from what I understand, Pathfinder 2e would be more of a "Pathfinder Revised" with collecting and rebalancing character options they've published for since 2009, and some minor rules updates.
If they put out a Pathfinder Revised, and it was better balanced but still compatible with the existing stuff and adventures? I'd absolutely pick up a new core book.
Like 4th edition, I'd probably pick up the base book as well. I can see them learning from 5th edition and making the improvements it lacks. However, if it was still like 3e's power progression... not sure it'll fit. I think 5e is damn close with its numbers only going from what is it +2 to +6 instead of +0 to +20. I still think 5e could have expanded it a LITTLE wider on the character level (say +2 to +8) and done more with set bonuses and less with advantage. Culling back the max bonus was also a biggy.
I gotta say though, some of the stuff I've seen from paizo for character options in the last two years just don't make SENSE. Its like they're just playing with mechanics to use bonuses.... they're not hitting the core idea or building a good theme to the classes they develop. Its kind of how I felt when I saw the Tome of Magic in 3e. I saw the binder and was in love with the concept. Then I saw the truenamer and the shadowmage and felt like both just missed the mark on usability. Paizo came out with some rules for cult type classes, and they were all just... stupid. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Sylrae
Learned Scribe
Canada
313 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2017 : 22:53:18
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Yeah, the occult classes were pretty crap. Some third party developers have altered and homebrewed them into usability, but the official ones are kinda shit, I agree.
I expect that a Pathfinder 2e would have the same number base as current pathfinder, for backwards compatibility with Pathfinder 1e and Pathfinder D&D 3.5e adventures and monsters, even if not compatibility with Pathfinder 1e classes (I expect it would be compatible with everything, and just be a revision of the content it includes, frankly).
As for 5e's math? I actually really don't like it. It works for attack progression and saves okay, but it's terrible for skills. The completely different number scales for PCs and Monsters (especially in terms of damage output) also means that it works very badly as soon as PVP comes up. The game is just way too swingy. Not enough difference in performance between "good at something" and "no skill in this thing whatsoever". |
Sylrae's Forgotten Realms Fan-Lore Index, with public commenting access to make for easier improvement (WIP) |
Edited by - Sylrae on 21 Jan 2017 22:54:30 |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2017 : 04:59:52
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I agree with both of you about the fecality of the occult classes. The book in itself has cool sections like the one about the Dimension of Dreams, but that's about it. I recently played the spiritualist as a pregen in a local Pathfinder Society event (Estra, and old lady that goes around with the phantom of her late husband, Honaire) and despite being an experienced Pathfinder gamer I couldn't make heads or tails of this silly class (the ghost can take three different forms; the old lady herself is pretty useless with a few weird and seemingly unrelated in theme spells). The whole play experience was just dumb. For those who say rogues are weak, they haven't tried the old lady with her 1d6+1 dmg phantom... (at 4th level)
The strongest class in the Occult Adventures book is the Psychic (formerly known as Psionic, in previous editions). Even so, the strength of the class is basically due to it being a 9th level spells caster (i.e. a full casting class like wizard and cleric), but the class in itself is pretty basic (detect thoughts as a SLA at 2nd level, telepathic bond at 9th, the rest is pretty forgettable or insignificant), and the new spells that one may consider useful or decent can all be taken by regular wizards/sorcerers. There. Forget the other classes, unless you're into over-hyped details... (as you have said, it's like they tried a bit too much with these, and the classes are highly forgettable as a result, with no real strong theme or idea to hang you coat unto...)
I've recently scaled back with the Paizo subscriptions as I think they're now running in circles. The upcoming Bestiary 6 seems to be going into a lot of CR 20-30 monsters (demon lords and such) which, while perhaps cool to read up on once, for fluff value, will no doubt never get used in a game (as most campaigns die around level 10-12 for real life reasons.... especially Paizo's AP, since playing them twice a month means the 6-part campaign ends up lasting 2 to 3 years... just too much gaming stuff printed with not enough real time to go through it all at this point...)
My last hardcover may be the Adventurer's Guide which will come out in a few months... it's mainly prestige classes and player options, but I hear that it will repolish a few Pathfinder classics so that might be a good way to end my (so far) pretty expensive Paizo addiction, which has lasted for the last 9 years or so... |
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Sylrae
Learned Scribe
Canada
313 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2017 : 04:48:38
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@PDK:
Pathfinder actually has had Psionics for a good 5 years, at least. Paizo said they were never bring Psionics to Pathfinder, so Dreamscarred Press did it. DSP's Ultimate Psionics is one of the best Pathfinder books I own. (The others I would say are DSP's Path of War/Path of Ware Expanded, and Green Ronin's Advanced Bestiary (100% monster templates))
The Occult "Psychic" class isn't psionic, it's more like a psychic who uses a crystal ball. It's really quite different.
CR 20-30 monsters don't see a ton of use, that's true; but they make good campaign capstones. I also like to use that level of creature as the gods in my campaigns where the gods are living creatures in the world that are worshipped rather than abstract extraplanar things.
As for campaigns ending before 12? I think that's a matter of opinion and depends on a lot of factors. For instance, if we're not running an adventure pre-scripted from a book (and sometimes even when we are) we do not start a 1. We start at 6. Or 8. We don't typically reach 20, but 16 or 17 is pretty frequent if the campaign doesnt die due to people losing interest. It also depends on how the GM awards XP. I know very no GMs who give XP for combat as the Corebook suggests. Some just level you up every X sessions. Some do it by plot milestones when running adventures to ensure the players keep pace throughout. In my sandbox games I grant XP based on how shadowrun does it by tracking the danger & difficulty and completion / survival of party accepted mission objectives, combined with an amount based on number of hours played. When I do this, I calibrate it to roughly give XP at a different rate based on how long I expect the adventure to carry on for in terms of months.
Their 6-part campaigns I'd say last a year or so. But it really depends on how frequently you game, and how long you game for, and how productive your group is.
Personally I like having more adventures than I can ever play, because not all adventures will be appealing to everyone. I'd rather have a surplus and be free to pick the one I want to play/run.
I don't buy too many paizo hardcovers these days, but I did pick up the CotCT anniversary edition, and I'll be picking up the next bestiary. Where character options are concerned, I've come to the conclusion that the philosophy driving their 'QA' simply isn't good enough. Each book only seems to have a couple of options that are even vaguely competitive with the options people are already taking. Paizo understands reigning in the maximum power level of their option (though they often don't set that bar evenly so poor performing playstyles remain bad nearly forever) and for some reason they don't understand setting a minimum quality level on character options, so there's too many things published that aren't worth the paper they're printed on.For character options my group no longer uses Paizo books, we just use the PRD, d20pfsrd and AoN. DSP options of course, come in books, and are often not adequately fleshed out on d20pfsrd, so we use the books for those.
But I like their adventures and adversary collections. |
Sylrae's Forgotten Realms Fan-Lore Index, with public commenting access to make for easier improvement (WIP) |
Edited by - Sylrae on 24 Jan 2017 04:54:26 |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2017 : 06:48:10
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They couldn't call it Psionic class, I guess, for IP reasons, but note that the book has Ego Whip, Intellect Fortress, etc.
I think the Psychic is the closest they'll get to Psionics (in terms of Paizo official product). I'm not sure how much they'll support the Occult Classes going forward. The problem I see at this time is that each hardcover with new classes require a big time investment from most people. Only the most devoted gamers read up on all the new classes (I can't get to half of them - some of these classes are more than half a dozen pages long, which I think is indicative of a class fail) and the late adopters can take years to get to try them. Thus my conscious decision to scale back on purchases, as I've amassed quite the pile of Paizo stuff I haven't gotten to yet.
Oddly enough I've taken to Pathfinder Tales and Pathfinder Comics - the latest Worldscape Pathfinder Comics stuff from Erik Mona is awesome (Pathfinder heroes find themselves in a demiplane that gathers heroes from Earth and other worlds - Jack Carter of Mars, Red Sonja, etc.) Pathfinder Tales novels I recommend are: Death's Heretic and The Redemption Engine, by James L. Sutter. |
Edited by - Purple Dragon Knight on 26 Jan 2017 06:50:59 |
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Sylrae
Learned Scribe
Canada
313 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2017 : 22:02:54
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Actually, the 3.x Psionic Rules are in the scope of 3e content published under the OGL, which is how Dreamscarred Press was able to directly convert and then drastically expand upon them. (Unlike with Path of War, whee they could not directly convert anything from Book of Nine Swords and had to take the core premise and then reinvent the wheel because copyright) Paizo deciding not to do so is simply a matter of their own preferences.
But personally I don't care if a product has a "Paizo Official" stamp on it, I only care about the quality of game design that went into it.At this point I actually have a preference for the products designed by DSP than Paizo. DSP Simply holds themselves to a higher standard, puts real care into the balance of their classes, and rigorously tests them before release. Paizo slaps some shit together and puts some art in the book, spellchecks it, and sends it to the printer (they have stated that they do not actually have a policy to test their products, save what gets an "Open Playtest").
In my experience, people don't become familiar with a new class until they consider playing it, in which case they typically follow this process:
1. Look up / Ask around to see if the class is any good, mechanically.
2. Pull up the class online.
3. Cherrypick the abilities that seem the most fun to play with mechanically.
4. Come up with a matching backstory and concept.
As for the Paizo books themselves? I agree. I've amassed quite a few books I do not use. I've notices that ones I do use tend to be the setting books and monster books and such, not the books of character options. Too many character options in the books that aren't introducing whole new classes tend to be pretty bad, and finding character options scattered across dozens of books is a nightmare. So we just don't. We use the website whenever possible when building characters.
But to introduce a new class, you need like 20 pages at this point. You can't introduce new classes without also providing them with a large number of archetypes. Paizo tried it with an early book, and people got VERY upset. So now, when they make a class, it comes with like a dozen alternate archetypes which let you change it.
Huh. I hadn't heard much about the Pathfinder fiction. I'll have to check it out. |
Sylrae's Forgotten Realms Fan-Lore Index, with public commenting access to make for easier improvement (WIP) |
Edited by - Sylrae on 27 Jan 2017 22:05:32 |
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farinal
Learned Scribe
Turkey
270 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2017 : 05:03:03
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quote:
Originally posted by mastermustard
The Realms, and D&D in general, is in a slump right now. Do you think things will pick up again, or that things will ever be like they were in the 'good old days'?
I think D&D is much more popular and successful right now than say 10 years ago. |
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Sylrae
Learned Scribe
Canada
313 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2017 : 06:20:17
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quote:
Originally posted by farinal
I think D&D is much more popular and successful right now than say 10 years ago.
I think that depends on a couple things:
1. Are you counting A) Pathfinder AND WotC D&D B) AND Other Retro-Clones, or C) Just WotC D&D
2. Are you talking about A) the number of people playing the game, or B) the amount people are spending on products or C) the variety of new products available to players and readers who want them or D) The variety of character options available for the current edition of the game?
1A,1B + 2A: Maybe, Not sure how much the market has grown or shrunk since 2007.
1C + 2A: Maybe. I remember it being easier to find a D&D group in 2007, but that may also have to do with where I lived then vs where I live now.
1A,1B + 2B:Maybe
1C + 2B:I sincerely doubt it. There's not much new from WotC to spend money on once you have the core books, and the number of players would have to have increased by a ton .to replace the revenue of players buying new books full of character options.
1A,1B + 2C:Maybe
1C + 2C:Definitely Not. The novels have stalled, and once you have the PHB, DMG, and MM, SCAG, and VGtM (or perhaps just PHB, SCAG, and VGtM for players) there's not much in the way of desirable product available for 5e. Previous editions are still out of print. I suppose if you want PDFs, *SOME* of them are still available.
1C + 2D:Definitely Not. The selection of character options in 5e is absolutely dismal. You can go to DMs Guild, but basically none of that stuff is reviewed, and it's not hard-copies you can skim through before you buy them, so you're gambling on whether it's good or crap. |
Sylrae's Forgotten Realms Fan-Lore Index, with public commenting access to make for easier improvement (WIP) |
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EltonRobb
Learned Scribe
USA
193 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2017 : 17:18:32
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quote:
Originally posted by farinal
I think D&D is much more popular and successful right now than say 10 years ago.
I believe that this statement is loaded. It's certainly full of optimism. I actually use Pathfinder with the 1st edition Forgotten Realms. Having that be my game of choice, I'd rather use pathfinder than D&D next. The reason is, most of my group(s) enjoy Pathfinder. |
Edited by - EltonRobb on 29 Jan 2017 17:19:21 |
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Topic |
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Where do you see the realms in 10 years? 20?
