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Farlaak
Acolyte
4 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Dec 2016 : 03:36:09
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Now that Hoar is again lawful neutral like helm can he have paladins. I know it is a bit of a stretch, but is it possible
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6680 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2016 : 10:33:33
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Paladins in 5E have no alignment restrictions. You can have paladins of any deity - even evil ones.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36894 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2016 : 14:07:42
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Because why should a class inspired by King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table be subject to pesky alignment requirements?  |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2016 : 14:12:30
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| One of my players in my current campaign is a paladin of Hoar (although the character only refers to Hoar as Assuran). It works perfectly with the Oath of Vengeance concept. |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2016 : 14:17:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Because why should a class inspired by King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table be subject to pesky alignment requirements?
Cyric keeps insisting the alignment concept is just Yugoloth propaganda to make you feel bad about having fun. |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4460 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2016 : 15:13:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Because why should a class inspired by King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table be subject to pesky alignment requirements?
Because they've always been there? Like in 1e when we received a Plethora of Paladins of multiple alignments? Or in 3rd edition when we got Paladins of Tyranny and Freedom and Slaughter? Or in 4e when there were no alignment requirements at all.
But yeah, the iconic image of the Paladin has certainly changed from years gone by, when Charlemagne and his 12 peers traipsed about the countryside performing divine miracles like lay on hands and removing diseases. He was a pretty good guy if we grossly ignore the torture he administered against non-Christians in his attempts of forced Conversion.
Looking at the actual history, multiple Oaths that we've received: of Devotion (no one ever said Charlemagne wasn't pious) and Vengeance (because death to the infidel) and even Treachery and Conquest (both new Oaths in this month's Unearhed Arcana) make up a pretty good rendition of what it was to be a Paladin.
But to answer the question, Yes Hoar can and most certainly DOES have Paladins. With him being Lawful Neutral, the Oaths that I see his Paladins employing the most are Vengeance, Crown, and Conquest. They best fit, to varying degrees, what Hoar is all about! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2016 : 15:43:33
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What issue of dragon were those non-LG paladin types in?
I much prefer THAT - calling them by different names, even if the crunch is the same. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36894 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2016 : 15:53:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
What issue of dragon were those non-LG paladin types in?
I much prefer THAT - calling them by different names, even if the crunch is the same.
That's my thing. Call them something else, and it's all good. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36894 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2016 : 15:58:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Because why should a class inspired by King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table be subject to pesky alignment requirements?
Because they've always been there? Like in 1e when we received a Plethora of Paladins of multiple alignments? Or in 3rd edition when we got Paladins of Tyranny and Freedom and Slaughter? Or in 4e when there were no alignment requirements at all.
The 1E PHB specifically describes paladins as lawful good. It's on pages 18 and 22.
I don't recall any non-LG paladins before 3E. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 20 Dec 2016 16:01:31 |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2016 : 17:03:05
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Hoars clergy has never been good at the whole 'organised religion' schtick. Most of the Doombringers followers were individualists, travelling the roads in their quest for poetic justice. Particularly in the North these loosely organised vigilantes and bounty-hunters were known as the Hunters of Vengeance. They were very secretive in the latter parts of the 14th century Realms, and run from small and sober shrines and temples such as the one in Archendale. They were raising in popularity under common folk, but had trouble with the more strict and more embedded religions of deities such as Helm, Tyr or Siamorphe.
Actual warhosts who followed Hoar were only found in the Chessentan Bay area. Akanax's warhost was sponsored by the city's King, and provided members for the citywatch and high-ranking officers in the city's mercenary army. This group would be the most likely to have produced enough structure for a stable paladin order.
The open theather in Mourktar had a well known arena dedicated to the Lord of Three Thunders, where trials of combat were held in the name of Hoar. After a religious coup by the Imperceptor of Bane from the Church of the Black Cloak in Mourktar, the arena went underground, scattering most doombringers in Mourktar to neighboring countrysides and absorbing some of them into their own Banite paladin orders.
I would suppose that in the 15th century Realms, his southern clergy and orders might have learned a thing or two from the Banite Paladin orders they have served. I doubt the worship of Hoar would have grown enough under the boot of Banes clergy though, as their tyrannical power has grown significantly in the southern Realms. Still, I can imagine these southern paladin orders of Hoar to be under the command of the imperceptor of Mourktar. This would give them ample resources to support a successful paladin order, but would restrain their freedom to enact the poetic justice as they see fit. They might play a highly dangerous political game by secretly supplying certain 'terrorist' groups (the new Untheric clergies such as those of Nanna Sin and the returned Gilgeam) with clandestine military or medical support, at the danger of public execution by the Fists of Bane.
In the North the return of Tyr could have had both positive and negative influence on the scattered religious orders of Hoar. Some of the more poetic tyrran justice-makers would secretly support the just actions of the individual quests of Hoarites, and would provide them with powerful tools of justice (horses, sanctuaries, armor and weapons). But most would (have to) publicly denounce their more crude retributions. So I think most paladin orders of Hoar in the North have bounties on their heads, and would have to operate from lawless frontiers or clandestine back-alley shrines, to avoid the ire of rival tyrran orders. Some doombringer paladins might be absorbed or sanctioned by a local temple if they uphold some of the more enlightened teachings of a high priest of Tyr. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4460 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2016 : 20:05:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Because why should a class inspired by King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table be subject to pesky alignment requirements?
Because they've always been there? Like in 1e when we received a Plethora of Paladins of multiple alignments? Or in 3rd edition when we got Paladins of Tyranny and Freedom and Slaughter? Or in 4e when there were no alignment requirements at all.
The 1E PHB specifically describes paladins as lawful good. It's on pages 18 and 22.
I don't recall any non-LG paladins before 3E.
Plethora of Paladins
The fact is that the alignment requirement (and other restrictions such as race and ability scores) were there because mechanicallyspeaking the Paladin was plain better than the fighter. TheY were superior in almost every way so it was a build in safeguard to ensure they role-played a certain way or they'd lose everything (a DMs dream of BS catch-22s would surely follow suit).
By 3rd edition the alignment requirement remained as an afterthought to appease old-guard players and had almost zero mechanical value since Fighters and Paladins were roughly the same in power. The racial requirements and stat requirements were gone. Why aren't we clamoring for those to return too? And why is the paladin the only one being forced into an alignment trap here when there have been other classes once saddled into a forced alignment like the Druid or Monk or Ranger or Bard or Barbarian? Surely their loss of restrictions diminishes their iconic narrative, yes?
Basically 5e does nothing to stop someone from playing a true-blue LG Paladin of righteousness and grace and in fact supports the notion fully. It's just that it's not the only option out there. The DMG is pretty clear about making the game your own and to shape it in ways that match your preferred style, thus possibly banning options and classes outright. But at leastet DMs make the call and appease to a greater audience with more options rather than force DMsto houserule brand new things because WotC is too afraid to create them.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36894 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2016 : 20:58:35
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That's fine. Just call them something else.
Paladins were based on the stereotypes of medieval knights in shining armor, riding around looking for good deeds to do. If the class isn't meant to do those things, it's not a paladin. Call it a crusader, or an avenger, or a holy warrior, or anything else.
It's like making a pacifist warrior class, or a spell-less wizard. If the class can't or won't do what the flavor of the class calls for it to do, call it something else. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12050 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2016 : 21:11:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Because why should a class inspired by King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table be subject to pesky alignment requirements?
Because they've always been there? Like in 1e when we received a Plethora of Paladins of multiple alignments? Or in 3rd edition when we got Paladins of Tyranny and Freedom and Slaughter? Or in 4e when there were no alignment requirements at all.
The 1E PHB specifically describes paladins as lawful good. It's on pages 18 and 22.
I don't recall any non-LG paladins before 3E.
There were "anti-paladins" before 3E. Note, not the same, but the idea was there. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12050 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2016 : 21:16:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
That's fine. Just call them something else.
Paladins were based on the stereotypes of medieval knights in shining armor, riding around looking for good deeds to do. If the class isn't meant to do those things, it's not a paladin. Call it a crusader, or an avenger, or a holy warrior, or anything else.
It's like making a pacifist warrior class, or a spell-less wizard. If the class can't or won't do what the flavor of the class calls for it to do, call it something else.
And I can agree on this concept. The holy crusader would be a much better name in my view. That being said, I am not strongly opposed to the concept of it being called paladins either, and I could even see the different cultures of Faerun fighting over this terminology even. Maybe Cormyreans hate the idea of a holy crusader of Bane being called a paladin... but the Zhents are fine with it. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Paladin of Hoar
