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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore
1078 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Dec 2016 : 19:35:31
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If you're a wiz or Sor, and you can cast Melf's Acid arrow, why would you conjure a weaker version with Shadow Conjuration? Same with Lightning bolt... why would you cast a Shadow evocation lightning bolt, when you can just cast the real one?
Thanks
CEV
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2016 : 20:17:34
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| I have up till now believed that those spells can cast stronger spells "copies" that are weaker and based on illusions. I have read it again and found that they only mimic spells one level lower. However they are still illusions and all other spells they mimic are either conjuration or evocation so beauty of those spells is probably in that you can make illusions real (with real damage) and so walk around limitations, for example specialization forces you to abandon some schools in favor of one. Also most magical defenses (spells) are focused on a school so you can send your spell knowing that your opponent is probably less protected against illusions than against evocation. |
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore
1078 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2016 : 22:07:57
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| But they still get a ST, and if successful only take 20% damage. These spells are almost worthless unless you're an Illusionist, and even then not worth the effort. I just don't understand what the game designers were thinking. Maybe I'm missing something here. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2460 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2016 : 03:15:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire
If you're a wiz or Sor, and you can cast Melf's Acid arrow, why would you conjure a weaker version with Shadow Conjuration? Same with Lightning bolt... why would you cast a Shadow evocation lightning bolt, when you can just cast the real one?
It was invented long before Charisma based magic. 
Anyway, sorcerers have limitation in spells known, so it still adds versatility at the cost of quality - only for known spells set, rather than memorized spells set (as for wizards).
And, of course, there are different factors that may enhance or weaken real and shadowy effects. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore
1078 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2016 : 14:57:26
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| Yes, I can see that. sort of. lol. Even a Shadow Weave mage would look at those spells and say "no, I think I'll cast the real spell." lol. |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2016 : 15:03:42
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In addition to what's been discussed, the spells were popular in 3e because you could stack various modifiers to raise the percentages over 100% and make them more powerful than the original evocations! (Shadowcrafter in Underdark is an example of this.)
I believe they were originally added to give Illusionists some punchier, more reliable options originally. |
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EltonRobb
Learned Scribe
USA
142 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2016 : 16:43:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
In addition to what's been discussed, the spells were popular in 3e because you could stack various modifiers to raise the percentages over 100% and make them more powerful than the original evocations! (Shadowcrafter in Underdark is an example of this.)
I believe they were originally added to give Illusionists some punchier, more reliable options originally.
It sounds like Arivia could be right. |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2016 : 18:29:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire
Yes, I can see that. sort of. lol. Even a Shadow Weave mage would look at those spells and say "no, I think I'll cast the real spell." lol.
You laugh only because you look at it as a player. Making combo spell is nice but if you look into the game there are lots of spellcasters that do not have a full access to spells like you do now. Your character might be actualy happy for his first offensive spell he got from undead mage's scroll in the crypt. And it is burning hands, you could say "why would a wizard at first level choose this spell over magic missile, they have much better overall effectiveness" and the answer is simply - story bro.
As illusion spells they are not meant to be as effective as evocation spell and have inherent negative quality of illusions - disbelieve. However those are still very potent spells that can make any wizard's conjuration/evocation effects and those could kill many monsters (even at lousy 20%) |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11964 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2016 : 19:20:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire
But they still get a ST, and if successful only take 20% damage. These spells are almost worthless unless you're an Illusionist, and even then not worth the effort. I just don't understand what the game designers were thinking. Maybe I'm missing something here.
I'm assuming here you're talking the 3.5e version. Bear this in mind
1) You aren't confined to a specific spell, so you gain the ability to create any energy type you know.
2) In the case of shadow conjuration, you can also create non-damaging effects that are nearly as effective without having to specifically have that spell memorized.
3) if you have evocation or conjuration as an opposition school, this gives you the ability to try and create some of these effects if you need to.
4) if you have say spell focus on illusions, or shadow weave magic, or both, or some other focus on illusions, then you can use this and have an effective conjuration or evocation spell save DC. Remember that your spell save DC is still set using the level of shadow evocation and since its technically an illusion, you would use any bonuses you have with illusion magic.
In effect, this spell is more about versatility than it necessarily is about effectiveness. You give up damage in order to gain some better flexibility. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4457 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2016 : 18:02:56
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| Sleyvas has the right of it! If someone took Shadow Weave Magic feat as a Wizard they'd most likely prohibit Conjuration and Evocation. Shadow variants of spells from these schools make up for that deficiency. |
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore
1078 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2016 : 16:34:33
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| Okay, I can see how that would be handy for a shadow illusionist or someone with a restriction on Conjuration or evocation spells. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11964 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2016 : 17:52:05
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Hmmm, and looking at the shadowcrafter prestige class in Underdark, that would really make up for the idea that you become an illusionist and give up conjuration and evocation (i.e. by 7th level your bonus becomes 40% and 80% respectively). Combine that with the shadowcraft mage from races of stone (which is only for gnomes mind you) and you can turn pretty much all illusion spells into either conjuration or evocation effects of one level lower (and the percentage equals the spell level x 10%) with 3 levels in the class. Throw in a level of nightmare spinner from Complete mage and you get a bonus illusionist spell at each level. Combine THAT with shadow weave magic, spell focus, greater spell focus.... damn, now THAT is a versatile spellcaster. You could turn all kinds of illusions into whatever effect you need.
Granted, this whole concept is where people sought to improve upon a spell that was less than optimal but had versatility. It actually becomes very good though with the above in place. I can see many followers of Baravar Cloakshadow possibly pursuing this path, especially amongst the deep gnomes. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4457 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2016 : 23:36:12
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| Nightmare Spinner really is a fun prestige class! |
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What is the point of Shadow Conjuration/Evocation?
