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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Dec 2016 : 16:47:07
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@Wooly, Auld Dragon (and everyone else, for that matter).
As much as I dislike 'parallel evolution' as an origin, I will concede that at least half of the creatures and races we have in D&D must stem from that (Ogres are an especially tricky case - I think any 'big ugly brute' in any setting just gets labeled that, regardless of origins).
I also proscribe to Occam's Razor, which Wooly mentioned. I truly feel all Drow originated from the descent curse that happened on Toril. It happened long enough ago in the past that it makes sense, and so long as we have no canon reference to 'drow' (not 'Dark Elves', which were probably just the Dökkálfar originally, which may have even been the orcs) in any other D&D material that predates that, it works. Especially if we use the Underland which I mentioned above. The Ilythiir dark elves may have even been advanced enough to have Spelljamming, which would also explain how they spread (although I don't know if SJ itself predates the Drow 27K creation). Even if these dark elves were 'elsewhere' in the universe already, and we go with the 'bloodlines' thing, the dark elves living on Kule may have all changed in an instant* (into Drow), even though they had no inkling of the 'Crown Wars' or the events leading up to The Descent.
Planescape/The Great Wheel pretty much predates everything, so I don't even need to account for that. My 'One World' theory is based primarily on Norse mythology, so that first World would have been Midgard, and the 'other realms' became the planer structures we have today (possibly tied to that story about the two 'cosmic' dragons in Guide to Hell). Homebrew: Midgard was the place the first 'mortals' were created, although at the time, 'mortality' itself wasn't even a thing yet. All the non-Midgardians became our 'Outsiders' (and all worked in the creation of the universe - the in-fighting between factions didn't really begin until after the first Godwar and the destruction of Midgard). This also shoe-horns perfectly with the Celestial Bureaucracy (in the end, EVERYONE works for the Celestial Emperor, even the 'bad guys'). FR's Creator Races were also on that First World - thanks to The Sundering its fairly easy to have FR's Days of Thunder be a part of that world, rather than Abeir-Toril (when the world was split apart... canonically). Thus, 'the planes' take care of themselves - FR is just an out-growth of the greater D&D lore.
Krynn is very tricky, but I've worked most of their lore into my 'over cosmology'. Athas is another setting that says all the races evolved there (from halflings!) We have to just say some of that is simply 'myth' for it all to work.
Now, going back in the other direction - the parts I would not want to 'blame of Toril'. Giants - I greatly disliked the Twilight Giants series, not as a story itself, which was perfectly fine, but it just didn't feel like FR (at all), and it also really screwed up all of our known giant lore, including our info on the planer giant deities. Ane we KNOW giants didn't originate on Toril - thats pushing things too far. They are a primal species, mentioned in most ancient (pre-historic) legends, whereas the drow are a created race, in canon, always have been, and FR simply put a 'time stamp' on them. My only 'fix' for that would be that the original part of that story took place in Midgard (the parts that include Ulutiu), and then Annam (the 'High God') got around...literally. He created multiple 'giant races' on many, many worlds, fathering them on various other beings throughout the cosmos. Thus, giants can be both related, and unrelated. By pushing Annam's backstory further back along the timeline (and have it predate the creation of Abeir-Toril itself), we are not actually 'blaming it on FR', but rather, the story has survived on Toril virtually intact. So 'parallel evolution', but with an attached relation to explain why.
I'm not even going to get into the whole 'Kreen' thing. I never really liked that race - it just feels 'off' in D&D, except for Athas. I'd prefer their origins to be something more along the lines of a Predator/Alien hybrid (story-wise). Something that 'spread through space', mostly by commandeering the ships of others... at first. Thats about as much thought as I want to put into them.
Isn't there another, alien-looking critter in D&D with four arms? The Xill? Considering the name, and the look, I'd throw that in with the Kreen races as well, even if its just something else from their homeworld. (okay, now I'm really done LOL).
*EDIT: Which, come to think about it, makes a LOT of sense, because it would explain all those abandoned cities on the surface of Kule (Celene). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Dec 2016 01:22:31 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2016 : 01:11:20
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I don't think "parallel evolution" (or perhaps "convergent evolution") really applies in D&D. Insofar as evolutionary theory itself hardly seems to apply to fantasy worlds. Some races - humans, elves, dwarves, orcs, dragons, etc - are common to many worlds, as are their racial deities and pantheons, and (usually) their beliefs/myths that they were created by the same. Perhaps the elves did indeed evolve in a single "homeworld" place, and perhaps Corellon and the Seldarines create (recreate) elves - a known, understood, and compatible template - on every world they populate. I wonder if minor variations between elven subtypes from different worlds result from minor variations in their Seldarines, and if this means changes in faith gradually become manifest as changes in the species of the faithful (if not several generations later on this world then perhaps on the next).
So I wouldn't call it "parallel evolution", I'd call it "parallel creationism". And not just for elves, but for all the common races. Science prefers entropy, the natural tendency for complex things to break apart and diffuse into simpler things - magic prefers reversed-entropy, the supernatural tendency for simpler things to drift together and form complex things.
Yes, there are always some populations (of elves or any other race) who apparently "evolved" in complete isolation of any magical or divine influences. I submit that no consensus has been reached in the evolution-vs-creationism arguments on our own world, it wouldn't be "realistic" to expect that universally-agreeable answers exist anywhere else. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 13 Dec 2016 01:21:50 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2016 : 01:19:39
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Well, I like to think that the universe itself has some sort of 'DNA', and that when it got destroyed in the first godwar, all those fragments were able to respawn as full worlds of their own, based on the 'information' encoded in them. However, each piece was unique, containing a different mix of genetic material (the creatures living on it), and also, the destruction itself could have corrupted a lot of 'data', and thats where our differences come from. All those Crystal Spheres are just the First world trying to clone itself anew, and never quite getting it right.
Thus, creationsim with a scientific/evolutionary twist. 
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Lol, why replace Maztica / Anchorome? Those pieces at least have some lore for them. Osse on the other hand...
I didn't get rid of them - in that map, I merged the upper half of Hepmonaland (the part we see on the GH maps) with Maztica. That was taken from an old map I did, and I already had Osse on it (which I swapped for the main Mystara continent in my Misbegotten Realms). Since I am now working on combining Maztica with Returned Abeir, it would be a threeway (although its very easy to keep Hep. and Maz. completely separate, just 'conjoined', and just 'hybridize' RA and Maz.). Both the maps we have for Maztica and what shows on the GH campaign map can be used as-is. So I guess its Hepmazticaland now. 
Or would it be Returned Hepmazticaland? Or Hepmazticlaerakond? 
You should know by now, Sleyvas, that I never just 'throw stuff away'. Every diamond is just a lump of coal until you apply some pressure and put a polish on it.
Of course I started playing with this. I can't help myself - whenever I think about geography - especially in the two (D&D) worlds I love most, I just have to 'make sure'.
Turns out, the only treatment GH really got in 3e (aside from a rather smallish 'gazeteer') was their Scarlet Brotherhood, which seems to have greatly increased the landmass of Hepmonaland (which was never detailed before, just shown on the larger world maps), and things don't fit nearly as neatly as I had thought. So now, if I want to use GH canon and keep Maztica (and Returned Abeir) in the same general region, I'm going to have to cut Hepmonaland into 2 pieces, which strangely, works out MUCH better, lore-wise (there are two 'native' ethnicities there, and the northern one is much more like our Mazticans.. or Aztecs). The way it looks now, it would take the place of all of Katashaka (which I was planning on losing anyway... for this thing... whatever it is... lets not call it a 'project').
Its not my Misbegotten Realms either, since that borrowed from everywhere, and I am making this TSR only. Plus its not a hybrid (much), but more of a 'conjoined' world. Just toying some more with part of the premise of this thread - Greyhawk in the Realms. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Dec 2016 06:11:34 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12066 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2016 : 15:32:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
@Wooly, Auld Dragon (and everyone else, for that matter).
As much as I dislike 'parallel evolution' as an origin, I will concede that at least half of the creatures and races we have in D&D must stem from that (Ogres are an especially tricky case - I think any 'big ugly brute' in any setting just gets labeled that, regardless of origins).
I also proscribe to Occam's Razor, which Wooly mentioned. I truly feel all Drow originated from the descent curse that happened on Toril. It happened long enough ago in the past that it makes sense, and so long as we have no canon reference to 'drow' (not 'Dark Elves', which were probably just the Dökkálfar originally, which may have even been the orcs) in any other D&D material that predates that, it works. Especially if we use the Underland which I mentioned above. The Ilythiir dark elves may have even been advanced enough to have Spelljamming, which would also explain how they spread (although I don't know if SJ itself predates the Drow 27K creation). Even if these dark elves were 'elsewhere' in the universe already, and we go with the 'bloodlines' thing, the dark elves living on Kule may have all changed in an instant* (into Drow), even though they had no inkling of the 'Crown Wars' or the events leading up to The Descent.
Planescape/The Great Wheel pretty much predates everything, so I don't even need to account for that. My 'One World' theory is based primarily on Norse mythology, so that first World would have been Midgard, and the 'other realms' became the planer structures we have today (possibly tied to that story about the two 'cosmic' dragons in Guide to Hell). Homebrew: Midgard was the place the first 'mortals' were created, although at the time, 'mortality' itself wasn't even a thing yet. All the non-Midgardians became our 'Outsiders' (and all worked in the creation of the universe - the in-fighting between factions didn't really begin until after the first Godwar and the destruction of Midgard). This also shoe-horns perfectly with the Celestial Bureaucracy (in the end, EVERYONE works for the Celestial Emperor, even the 'bad guys'). FR's Creator Races were also on that First World - thanks to The Sundering its fairly easy to have FR's Days of Thunder be a part of that world, rather than Abeir-Toril (when the world was split apart... canonically). Thus, 'the planes' take care of themselves - FR is just an out-growth of the greater D&D lore.
Krynn is very tricky, but I've worked most of their lore into my 'over cosmology'. Athas is another setting that says all the races evolved there (from halflings!) We have to just say some of that is simply 'myth' for it all to work.
Now, going back in the other direction - the parts I would not want to 'blame of Toril'. Giants - I greatly disliked the Twilight Giants series, not as a story itself, which was perfectly fine, but it just didn't feel like FR (at all), and it also really screwed up all of our known giant lore, including our info on the planer giant deities. Ane we KNOW giants didn't originate on Toril - thats pushing things too far. They are a primal species, mentioned in most ancient (pre-historic) legends, whereas the drow are a created race, in canon, always have been, and FR simply put a 'time stamp' on them. My only 'fix' for that would be that the original part of that story took place in Midgard (the parts that include Ulutiu), and then Annam (the 'High God') got around...literally. He created multiple 'giant races' on many, many worlds, fathering them on various other beings throughout the cosmos. Thus, giants can be both related, and unrelated. By pushing Annam's backstory further back along the timeline (and have it predate the creation of Abeir-Toril itself), we are not actually 'blaming it on FR', but rather, the story has survived on Toril virtually intact. So 'parallel evolution', but with an attached relation to explain why.
I'm not even going to get into the whole 'Kreen' thing. I never really liked that race - it just feels 'off' in D&D, except for Athas. I'd prefer their origins to be something more along the lines of a Predator/Alien hybrid (story-wise). Something that 'spread through space', mostly by commandeering the ships of others... at first. Thats about as much thought as I want to put into them.
Isn't there another, alien-looking critter in D&D with four arms? The Xill? Considering the name, and the look, I'd throw that in with the Kreen races as well, even if its just something else from their homeworld. (okay, now I'm really done LOL).
*EDIT: Which, come to think about it, makes a LOT of sense, because it would explain all those abandoned cities on the surface of Kule (Celene).
On the drow originating here and spreading... let us not forget the old 1st edition module where you went to the demonweb pits and Lolth's "residence" had portals to many other worlds. I'm thinking spelljamming is less likely than they had contacts with the abyss and the abyss had contact with other prime planets. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2016 : 05:30:38
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I finally got my hands on a copy of Dungeonology. My game stores (in Australia) weren't even aware of it, I had to go to a bookstore to find it.
For those interested, the book (written by Volo) states that he too thought that Acecerak and the Tomb of Horrors came from Greyhawk. He is confused as to how it could be on Toril, but theorizes "the boundaries between the two worlds may be breaking down". He also only talks of rumours that it exists in Toril, as opposed to stating it definitely does.
It will be interesting to see how it's all handled once it eventually comes out. I suspect it will be similar to Ravenloft, in that most of the adventure will take place on another plane, with the Realms only serving as a gateway with a temple or something. It may even be similar to the 4th edition Tomb of Horrors remake, and have a whole other planar area to explore, possibly even in line with the Epic Tier release. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
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So what's this about Acererak being in FR?
