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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Dec 2016 : 07:38:24
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quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo
Yeah, I'd like them to stop importing things from other worlds into the Realms and concentrate on just developing the world they've already got too.
But we're looking at this from the PoV of Realms fans. There are plenty of people who don't really like the Realms (for various reasons, some better than others) and their desires should be taken into consideration too considering the amount of resources that WotC seem willing to devote to D&D. I think Ravenloft fans should count themselves lucky that they got a season of adventures almost to themselves.
Have to disagree here. If you don't like the Realms then you should be SOL. You don't change an already established setting to try and appease a "minority". Yes I said minority because there was a poll done and out of all the settings FR is the most people play their games in. |
Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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farinal
Learned Scribe
Turkey
270 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2016 : 14:23:54
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| Where did they make Perkins' group NPCs? |
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Gareth
Seeker
United Kingdom
55 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2016 : 17:59:11
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| In "Cloud Giant's Bargain" I believe. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12057 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2016 : 19:16:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Unfortunately, part of the reason why FR wasn't universally appealing to 'gamers' was its vastness (hence one of the reasons for the shrinkage in 3e). Most DMs are la.. errr... have time constraints, and don't have what it takes to develop an entire, living, breathing world (or even continent). Most campaigns 'stay local', thus we pick the Eastern Heartlands or 'the North', and simply ignore the rest (sure, we love its lore, but how many campaigns are actually run outside The Heartlands?)
Part of what they are trying to do to FR in 5e is what they were hoping to achieve with their core, 'non-setting' back in 4e - an easy place to dump adventures for people to go on, with nothing 'overly far' which might tax the DM's time (and creativity).
So there is what is 'good' (and what WE want), and then there is 'what works best for people who buy game products'. The gamer in me loves it, while the FR fanboi in me silently weeps for our loss.
Sometimes being Bipolar has its advantages. 
(or was that multiple-personality disorder? I better go check with my other selves...)
 
What I find kind of funny is that I've never run a campaign in the northern heartlands. I have used Waterdeep and Cormyr as places to visit, and I've used Neverwinter as backdrop history. Most of my games though I've run in either Damara/Vaasa/Impiltur or the unapproachable east (mostly Thay or Rashemen) or down in Tethyr/Calimshan or Halruaa/Dambrath. Ironically, now that I think about it, I've never had my players visit candlekeep (the library, not this site). Whenever I've been a player (rare occasions) its been mostly someone's homebrew, Mystara adapted to other rules, greyhawk, pathfinder's world, underdark / undermountain, and a couple games in Cormyr/Dales/Sembia. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 01 Dec 2016 19:18:51 |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1628 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2016 : 20:01:52
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quote:
Originally posted by farinal
Where did they make Perkins' group NPCs?
That crap ends up canon, but Ed's new story isn't, WTF? |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12057 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2016 : 02:03:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The Forgotten Realms is like an onion... or an ogre.
Maybe parfait... "everybody loves parfait".
What it stinks? It makes you cry? You leave it out in the sun and it goes all brown and starts sprouting little white hairs? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2016 : 03:55:13
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
What it stinks? It makes you cry? You leave it out in the sun and it goes all brown and starts sprouting little white hairs?
No... that would be ME.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36899 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2016 : 14:09:52
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| So I was looking at Dungeonology last night... What I've not seen anyone mention here is what Volo actually says about Acererak. He point-blank states that Acererak and his Tomb were originally on Oerth, and that rumors of his presence in the Realms indicates Acererak had found a way to move between the worlds -- or that the worlds were possibly coming together in some way. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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EltonRobb
Learned Scribe
USA
191 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2016 : 15:36:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
So I was looking at Dungeonology last night... What I've not seen anyone mention here is what Volo actually says about Acererak. He point-blank states that Acererak and his Tomb were originally on Oerth, and that rumors of his presence in the Realms indicates Acererak had found a way to move between the worlds -- or that the worlds were possibly coming together in some way.
It makes more sense that Acererak could move between the two worlds. Mostly because of the permanent gates scattered about the Realms. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2016 : 17:59:04
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You guys are going to hate me for this...
But what if they DO intend to put the Flanaess (Oerth's main continent) where Anchoromé was? {doing a happy dance}
I guess this is the part where I get rotten vegetables thrown at me by the grognards here.
And if they do that, we really need to steal Xendrik from Eberron... its SO good (as opposed to using the recommended Nyambe, which is good, but a bit lackluster), or our own 'Katashaka', which has an interesting name, but little else going for it. Xendrik also has a quasi-canonical connection to the Realms via D&D Online.
An you know whats weird? I used to be able to find that spinning globe (gif) someone made showing exactly that - Greyhawk and FR merged together. Brian James even had it up on his site, back when the GHotR was still a fan-work. Now I can't find it ANYWHERE. The only way something like that disappears completely from the interwebs is if a company with lots of resource makes a concentrated effort to get them all removed. Now, why would they do that? (aside from the Copyright issues, which actually ties into with my theory, and the fact it was probably causing some confusion).
Piece of old map I did. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2016 : 18:08:46
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| I remember from somewhere that Acererak has multiple Tombs, one in that 4e generic world (Nerath?) |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1628 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2016 : 18:40:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
So I was looking at Dungeonology last night... What I've not seen anyone mention here is what Volo actually says about Acererak. He point-blank states that Acererak and his Tomb were originally on Oerth, and that rumors of his presence in the Realms indicates Acererak had found a way to move between the worlds -- or that the worlds were possibly coming together in some way.
Wow FR just went through one Sundering so it can go through another ;p |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2016 : 18:58:11
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Or, perhaps his tomb is now a demiplane, and there are multiple 'portals' to get to it?
One of the few things I liked about 4e is that they took stuff like the Feywild and Shadowfell and put a lot of generic adventures in those planes, so that you CAN reach them from whatever setting you were in/on - that makes a LOT of sense, from a business standpoint. You have any idea how many adventures have been written for D&D over the years, that are now just scattered all over the place, in over a dozen (official) worlds? It also helps keep the settings more 'pristine' in regards to their own lore - Acererak's REAL tomb was originally in Greyhawk, then got shunted into the Shadowfell (or its own pocket-plane). Thus, FR characters can reach it, but its not 'in the Realms'.
As for Nerath - I REALLY like Nentir Vale, and I am still hoping they'll shoe-horn that into FR (as I have, in 3 different places thus-far!) The absolute best fit is in between the High forest and the High Moor - you just need to add some hills/small mountains (which is no big deal - there are several nearby mountain ranges that are easy to 'hook to'). It makes FR lore a tad bit messy (and probably conflicts a wee bit with NV itself, although thats real easy to remedy), but we could always use the DoD (Domains of Dread) solution: Everyone just thinks its always been there (except maybe for a few really sharp individuals, like Larloch and Elminster).
Theory:
Nentir Vale was created post-Spellplague and pre-Sundering (II), after the multiverse was 'shook up', and little bits of everything got cast-astray. Now, the universe is a brilliant machine, and has contingencies for this sort of thing. As stuff got rearranged (like Abeir and Toril), the 'extra bits' that wound up on the 'cutting room floor' got shoe-horned into a pocket-plane of its own - Nerath. This even ties into my theory that the Grand Conjunction in Ravenloft happened simultaneously with the Spellplague (and maybe even the Cataclysm On Krynn/DL) - the whole multiverse was 'put through a blender'. Basically, Nerath was the a place where 'old files got stored', after the reboot (4e 'update'). Now, 4e was a lot like Windows Millenium, with various pieces of differing code hacked together (W-98 and W-NT). Eventually, the Sundering (pt.2) happened - basically, Windows Vista - and the universe got rebooted again... except this time it went the Crisis method (used in DC comics), and instead of multiple realities layered on top of each other, we now have just ONE reality... as it was in the beginning, before the world was sundered the first time.
So now the pieces of Nertah - being a 'Frankenstein world' itself - have all been returned to their proper places, went to new places, or became 'their own thing' (either in the DoD/Shadowfell or a pocket-plane). Thus, Nerath no longer exists in 5e - it was a 'storage area' just until the universe got back on track. That means Nentir Vale is 'up for grabs' - it could have gone to the Feywild, or the Shadowfell, or we could get it.
Or maybe... it was really ours (FR) all along, and we just don't remember it.. another 'Forgotten Realm' come home. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 02 Dec 2016 19:21:35 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12057 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2016 : 19:27:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
You guys are going to hate me for this...
But what if they DO intend to put the Flanaess (Oerth's main continent) where Anchoromé was? {doing a happy dance}
I guess this is the part where I get rotten vegetables thrown at me by the grognards here.
And if they do that, we really need to steal Xendrik from Eberron... its SO good (as opposed to using the recommended Nyambe, which is good, but a bit lackluster), or our own 'Katashaka', which has an interesting name, but little else going for it. Xendrik also has a quasi-canonical connection to the Realms via D&D Online.
An you know whats weird? I used to be able to find that spinning globe (gif) someone made showing exactly that - Greyhawk and FR merged together. Brian James even had it up on his site, back when the GHotR was still a fan-work. Now I can't find it ANYWHERE. The only way something like that disappears completely from the interwebs is if a company with lots of resource makes a concentrated effort to get them all removed. Now, why would they do that? (aside from the Copyright issues, which actually ties into with my theory, and the fact it was probably causing some confusion).
Piece of old map I did.
Lol, why replace Maztica / Anchorome? Those pieces at least have some lore for them. Osse on the other hand... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12057 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2016 : 19:30:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
So I was looking at Dungeonology last night... What I've not seen anyone mention here is what Volo actually says about Acererak. He point-blank states that Acererak and his Tomb were originally on Oerth, and that rumors of his presence in the Realms indicates Acererak had found a way to move between the worlds -- or that the worlds were possibly coming together in some way.
Given that in 3.5 Acererak had become a vestige trapped in the place where vestiges go... in theory he's now in all worlds where there's a binder willing to bind his vestige. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2016 : 20:13:19
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LOL - D&D's 'plane of vestiges' sounds like Marvel's 'Dimension of Manifestations' (basically, a setting's 'storage room' until some writer needs them). Although I'd place the former in the Shadowfell, and the latter in the Astral.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Lol, why replace Maztica / Anchorome? Those pieces at least have some lore for them. Osse on the other hand...
I didn't get rid of them - in that map, I merged the upper half of Hepmonaland (the part we see on the GH maps) with Maztica. That was taken from an old map I did, and I already had Osse on it (which I swapped for the main Mystara continent in my Misbegotten Realms). Since I am now working on combining Maztica with Returned Abeir, it would be a threeway (although its very easy to keep Hep. and Maz. completely separate, just 'conjoined', and just 'hybridize' RA and Maz.). Both the maps we have for Maztica and what shows on the GH campaign map can be used as-is. So I guess its Hepmazticaland now.
Or would it be Returned Hepmazticaland? Or Hepmazticlaerakond? 
You should know by now, Sleyvas, that I never just 'throw stuff away'. Every diamond is just a lump of coal until you apply some pressure and put a polish on it. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 02 Dec 2016 20:16:20 |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1155 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2016 : 20:56:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
quote:
Originally posted by farinal
Where did they make Perkins' group NPCs?
That crap ends up canon, but Ed's new story isn't, WTF?
Wizards have decided to make Ed's new work canon. That's why they took it off DM's Guild, so they could stamp it with the official seals. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2016 : 21:00:16
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Oh I see how it is. It's okay to use the planes as a dumping ground as long as WotC keeps the Realms clean? Hmphf.
Something bothering you? Just send it to Ravenloft!
Your epic world-shattering bad guys suddenly getting too nasty and unpopular? Just swallow them all back into the Shadowfell!
Gotta mix up the landscape a little? Just sweep up all the trash and eject it to the new "extraplanar world" of Abeir!
Stuck with too many gods? Just banish them all over the cosmos! Better yet, just put them all into Astral cold-storage!
Forgot what that ancient immortal place was - Demiplane of Imprisonment, maybe? Well, no problem, just invent a handy new Plane of Vestiges!
Acererak is a decent fellow, perhaps unwanted in the Realms but always welcome to visit the planes! He and Vecna can have tea.
But as self-appointed spokesman for the suddenly-created one-man Faction of Purely Planar Purists within Sigil (and beyond), I hereby forbid any further dumping of canon Realms trash into the unpolluted pristine infinities of the extraplanar nether. We don't want to pick up all the litter dropped by your Chosens. We don't want your hordes of emo drow rangers. Or your profoundly uninspired tieflings. Your repeated disasters, "plagues", and "storms" of volatile magic. Or all the craters and corpses you eject into the planes each time your hierarchy of petty godlings gets a little too uppity and violent. I'm putting Ao on report, His incompetence has been noted! Purely Planar Purity forever! |
[/Ayrik] |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2016 : 07:49:02
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| you should join forces with Cirily of the Planarists, they have similar views |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2016 : 22:00:25
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lol it seems my zealously "demi-faction" perceptions do indeed overlap with those of the Planarists. Not too fond of elven and eladrin things, and Cirily is such a silly sobriquet, but it's foolish to reject allies serving the same worthy cause!
But the point I was trying to make in my above post is that the Realms is only one D&D setting among many. Arguably the "flagship" D&D setting - if not necessarily WotC's "core" D&D setting. Arguably the most prolific D&D setting in terms of sourcebooks and supplements, novels, adventures, authors, lore, and sheer popularity. Arguably the most potentially profitable D&D setting too, if Wizbro would stop insistently smashing apart something that works in an attempt to reconstruct the shattered pieces into something greater. But still only one D&D setting among many.
Yes, I happen to like the Realms - or at least yes, I happen to like what the Realms used to be - but I've discovered the setting of Planescape suits my particular tastes far better. I don't particularly like Ravenloft, Greyhawk, Al-Qadim, Spelljammer, etc - though I know each has passionate and diehard fans. I argue that the Realms has been used and misused and abused by Wizbro, it's evidently no more than a dumping ground, and from the perspective of a dedicated fan that's unacceptably awful. But respect for the other settings (and Purely Planar Purity forever!) should also be shown. WotC shouldn't need dumping grounds and it should actually put some real work into both preserving the integrity and expanding the boundaries of each popular D&D setting. A little crossover is interesting and exciting from time to time, but a nonspecific and unpopularly generic D&D setting filled with blurred remixes just ain't gonna cut it. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2016 : 14:01:53
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The thing I hate is how Perkin's has obviously taken a little story about El, Mord, and Dalamar, from years ago, and ran rampant with it. The crossing of worlds was something that was rare and usually only done though Spelljammer. I don't like how easily, and how often it has started.
What they have done is found a way to introduce other settings without really having to do them. They know fans are screaming for other settings but they want to keep the focus on the Realms and not go the route of putting out full material for the other settings.
It's extremely lazy and it's really taking more and more of what makes the Realms special and unique. |
Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2016 : 21:38:07
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FR products were once proudly emblazoned with "Forgotten Realms" logos. It was a brand set apart. It was a "guarantee" or "promise" that it would be entirely self-consistent with all other Realmslore. Customers could trust that new Realms products would always be "compatible" with their existing Realms products/gaming. Many gamers were disinterested in investing into any of the many non-Realms settings while they also didn't want their investment into the Realms to be incomplete. (Gamers tend to be collectors and hoarders of rules and lore, after all, yet also strangely finicky about exactly what gets included and excluded in their preferred games.)
But trust in FR branding diminished over the years. Lazy designers erased and reformatted the Realms too often. Lazy designers recycled half-assed and half-baked materials from other settings into the Realms too often. A poorly-managed company cannot truly "guarantee" anything, they're just as likely to go big as they are to go away forever. "Promises" were broken far too often, Orwellian retcons were handwaved out too often, while passionate gamers tend to have strong feelings and long memories. Wizbro eventually realized that the FR brand wasn't really selling the way it used to - they even argued that it was "competing" with their core D&D products - so they decided to neglect and almost entirely abandon the brand. "Forgotten Realms" is now trotted out to (re)sell a handful of core books from time to time, and of course all those EG/RAS novels, but it's otherwise ignored. We all started as novices, the majority of us enthusiastically embraced Realmslore somewhere in the "middle of the story" and accepted it as a body of work rich with depth and history - but the Realms have been changed around too much, too easily, and too often - it's only a matter of time before idealistic starry-eyed greenies become jaded and disgruntled veterans well aware of how badly things are going.
It almosts seems to me that WotC's business strategy for their D&D franchise is all about making a quick buck off (the parents of) a very carefully targeted and age-limited demographic, then abandoning them to their own devices to do it again after the passage of a few years. Not creating, not evolving, just stagnating in an easy niche. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 04 Dec 2016 21:55:05 |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1628 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2016 : 23:12:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
The thing I hate is how Perkin's has obviously taken a little story about El, Mord, and Dalamar, from years ago, and ran rampant with it. The crossing of worlds was something that was rare and usually only done though Spelljammer. I don't like how easily, and how often it has started.
What they have done is found a way to introduce other settings without really having to do them. They know fans are screaming for other settings but they want to keep the focus on the Realms and not go the route of putting out full material for the other settings.
It's extremely lazy and it's really taking more and more of what makes the Realms special and unique.
Actually they have said straight up that the boundry between the worlds of Greyhawk and the Forgotten Realms have gotten thinner, which is kind of weird because unlike Abeir, Oerth is not parrell to Toril at all, its a far distance away by spelljammer so that's kind of confusing honestly. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2016 : 23:40:36
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| 2E Spelljammer lore (indirectly) explained that crystal spheres sort of drift through the Flow much like objects floating down a river. Objects always in motion with varying distances between them and varying "crosscurrents" or "eddies" circulating between them. Spelljammers travelling between spheres need to plot their courses from recent starcharts, they sometimes need to plan their departure and arrival schedules based on the "tides" and "weather" of the Flow, they need to constantly be nudged back on course by their pilots, and countless individual variables sort of average out into well-known variances in overall travel times. Perhaps Realmspace and Greyspace have closer proximity now then they did in the days of 2E Spelljammer lore - after all, subsequent game editions span more than a century of time. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1628 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2016 : 01:28:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
2E Spelljammer lore (indirectly) explained that crystal spheres sort of drift through the Flow much like objects floating down a river. Objects always in motion with varying distances between them and varying "crosscurrents" or "eddies" circulating between them. Spelljammers travelling between spheres need to plot their courses from recent starcharts, they sometimes need to plan their departure and arrival schedules based on the "tides" and "weather" of the Flow, they need to constantly be nudged back on course by their pilots, and countless individual variables sort of average out into well-known variances in overall travel times. Perhaps Realmspace and Greyspace have closer proximity now then they did in the days of 2E Spelljammer lore - after all, subsequent game editions span more than a century of time.
You make a good arguement, but has anyone realized rhe consquences of this means that Greyhawk and possibly other settings has jumped 100 years or more ahead, I mean before Greyhawk could have ignored FRs timeline, now they can't, at least I don't think so. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2016 : 04:25:02
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Except that the only three (known) 'constants' in the multiverse were the 'triad' - Oerth, Toril, and Krynn, which remain equidistant and completely stable in relationship to one another.
A long time ago (at least five years - probably when 4e reared its ugly head) I was evangelizing the idea of them (WotC) to use FR as the 'Core' setting, based entirely upon its 'core' premise - that The Realms are a 'Gateway World' - a 'cosmic crossroads', if you will. It has connections to just about every world and plane in the multiverse (several, to the more common ones). So I have no problem with this take on things. They haven't changed anything - they are just focusing on a rather important aspect of the realms and using it to 'fix' D&D.
And with the Spellplague and the Sundering (both the original and the recent one), and perhaps the ToT, we've seen them throw a dash of Ravenloft (or Faerie) into the mix - that Realms themselves can 'come & go' on Toril. If they add-in that 'forget factor' thing RL has going for it, it becomes the ultimate setting - not only can you literally walk from Faerūn to ANYWHERE (in the universe), but you could wake up one morning to find an enchanted forest outside your door.. or a creepy old castle... or hell itself (and maybe everyone else is acting like it was always there!) We've had several instances of people casting high magic (or Ao), making people forget things on a global scale (Obliviate! )
It might seem 'messy' from a Realms fan perspective, but its a great tool to use for D&D. "Everything is where it needs to be... except when its not." |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2016 : 21:53:03
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quote:
Except that the only three (known) 'constants' in the multiverse were the 'triad' - Oerth, Toril, and Krynn, which remain equidistant and completely stable in relationship to one another.
Is this quoted from somewhere, @Markustay? It sounds magnificent and slightly poetic, but it is wrong.
Toril has certainly suffered from inconstancy. Hardly any part of Toril emerged unscathed from the Avatar Crisis, the Spellplague, the Abyssal Plague, etc, etc, etc. Entire nations and peoples have come and gone, whole lands have been pulled out from under the map, the rules of magic have been killed and reborn several times, pantheons and powers come and pantheons and powers go, orcs have become a civilized, tame, and productive culture - there is just no end to dramatic and unbelievable changes in the Realms!
Krynn has also suffered from great world-shattering Cataclysms. Nobody complains about "Krynn Shattering Events" because these things are so fundamentally entrenched within Krynn's cycles of history, powers, magics, races, and lore. But the KSEs did indeed occur, and occur again with some regularity - I guess people tolerate them better because they're sort of anticipated.
And Oerth is the oddball, having remained relatively "intact" and "pristine", almost like a living-museum, an untouchably-fragile monument and tribute to the great and powerful Gygax.
So hardly any comparison between the worlds of the Triad could be seen as common and "constant". The difference (or, in one case, lack of difference) between them "constantly" increases in scope and magnitude as WotC releases new products.
Spelljammer travel times between the spheres of the Triad are vastly inequal and highly variable, they are well known and differ by many days. Worse, the Flow only permits travel between them in certain directions, travel from Krynnspace to Greyspace or from Realmspace to Krynnspace is impossible without travelling through the third sphere.
So the Triad is hardly "equidistant" by any spelljamming measure.
Athas, the world of Dark Sun, was linked to the Triad (and to Kreenspace) in past ages. It has since drifted far away, to uncharted space, isolated, lost, and utterly inaccessible to spelljammers. I'm sure that it would have once been considered a "constant" component within the "Tetrad". Some lore suggests that Mystara was also once linked through the Flow, the "Triad" might once have been the "Pentad".
So the Triad only seems "stable" in the short term. It may take centuries or millennia or epochs for one of the Triad spheres to drift away (leaving only a Dyad) or to merge with other spheres and groups of spheres into some other sort of Polyad. But the Triad is not eternal, it has changed before, it will change again. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 06 Dec 2016 00:14:58 |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1628 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2016 : 00:07:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Except that the only three (known) 'constants' in the multiverse were the 'triad' - Oerth, Toril, and Krynn, which remain equidistant and completely stable in relationship to one another.
A long time ago (at least five years - probably when 4e reared its ugly head) I was evangelizing the idea of them (WotC) to use FR as the 'Core' setting, based entirely upon its 'core' premise - that The Realms are a 'Gateway World' - a 'cosmic crossroads', if you will. It has connections to just about every world and plane in the multiverse (several, to the more common ones). So I have no problem with this take on things. They haven't changed anything - they are just focusing on a rather important aspect of the realms and using it to 'fix' D&D.
And with the Spellplague and the Sundering (both the original and the recent one), and perhaps the ToT, we've seen them throw a dash of Ravenloft (or Faerie) into the mix - that Realms themselves can 'come & go' on Toril. If they add-in that 'forget factor' thing RL has going for it, it becomes the ultimate setting - not only can you literally walk from Faerūn to ANYWHERE (in the universe), but you could wake up one morning to find an enchanted forest outside your door.. or a creepy old castle... or hell itself (and maybe everyone else is acting like it was always there!) We've had several instances of people casting high magic (or Ao), making people forget things on a global scale (Obliviate! )
It might seem 'messy' from a Realms fan perspective, but its a great tool to use for D&D. "Everything is where it needs to be... except when its not."
Toril stopped being constant when the Spellplague happen, parts of it shift away, and other parts from Abeir shifted into their place, the world colliding. So arguably that because Toril got effectly knocked ajar, that it relative connection to Kynn and Oerth changed and when something that big shifts, its going to cause a rip effect in Kynn and Oerth although likely less sever by orders of magnitude. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2016 : 01:19:59
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Why would Toril-altering affects necessarily ripple towards Krynn and Oerth?
Each world is part of a star system contained and isolated within a crystal sphere. Nothing can penetrate the material of these self-replenishing impervious spheres except for some very specific magics (which can barely create an opening large enough and long-lasting enough for spelljammers to pass through). The medium surrounding the spheres is the Phlogiston, where normal rules of physics and gravity and inertia do not apply - objects cannot be propelled (or even sustain life indefinitely) within the phlog without the application of very specific magics. The phlog is so volatile that anything energetic entering it would instantly be destroyed. The phlog is so inert that anything cast adrift in it is preserved in a bizarrely timeless/petrified suspension. I find it very doubtful that planetary-scale fallout could ripple through the phlog to other spheres.
However, magical and extraplanar fallout which bypasses spelljamming mediums and resonates across the planes is possible. The rules already explain that planar gates, worldwalk portals, teleports, and the like are subject to "interference" by extremely strong magics, spells, prayers, artifacts, and interventions of Powers. And on the other side of the coin, there are many extremely strong magics, spells, prayers, artifacts, and Powers which actively obstruct destructive or undesirable influences from entering their domains.
Yes, I can easily imagine known portals in Krynn's Towers of High Sorcery being rattled out of their foundations. I can imagine some dust and clutter falling down the Celestial Staircase, some shaken branches and fallen leaves on the World Tree, some unhappy druids and elves rebuilding their fallen stone circles. Maybe even Yellowstone's geyser would erupt off schedule. But I think the "ripples" of the cataclysmic Sundering of the Realms would hardly be able to topple a dew drop in Castle Greyhawk or Palanthas, world-shattering over here but of no real consequence over there. |
[/Ayrik] |
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
578 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2016 : 01:53:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Athas, the world of Dark Sun, was linked to the Triad (and to Kreenspace) in past ages. It has since drifted far away, to uncharted space, isolated, lost, and utterly inaccessible to spelljammers. I'm sure that it would have once been considered a "constant" component within the "Tetrad". Some lore suggests that Mystara was also once linked through the Flow, the "Triad" might once have been the "Pentad".
That isn't canon, btw. The connection between Athas and the rest of the Known Spheres is limited to speculation, primarily in Thri-Kreen of Athas, but this is suspect because it indicates the xixchil originated there, but they are from a predator-filled liveworld. There was never a concrete connection between Mystara and the Known Spheres either, although it apparently is unremarkable enough for a giff from Bral (in the First Quest product) to not make a big deal of his trip.
There are also many more fixed spheres than the Radiant Triangle; there is the Arcane Inner Flow (part of which is detailed in a Dungeon adventure, and includes the spheres of Refuge, Pirtel, and Darnannon), and the undetailed Arcane Outer Flow. In addition, from the novels, ancient charts detailing how to travel to long-lost spheres can still be used.
Jeff |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
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So what's this about Acererak being in FR?
