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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Nov 2016 : 23:49:40
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Talos=Gruumsh simply isn't viable to my mind. The Greater God Of Destruction. But destruction needn't be as obvious as smashing physical objects into little bits and killing random victims with impunity, it can be as subtle as a storm sinking a single supply ship so that a city full of starving people will riot and rampage and burn, it can be as sinister as destroying a person's hopes or dreams or reputation.
Depictions of Talos in Realmslore have been sad and shallow parodies: Talos is always presented as something of a clumsy, raving, smashing, lurching lunatic who angrily breaks everything he can grasp - his priests and servants are basically disposable mindless ruffians, utterly unkempt and uncivilized, savage murderers and vandals entirely lacking in subtlety and sanity. And I find this insulting. Talos could as easily be a wild-haired madman as a greasy-haired lawmaker or a steel-eyed tyrant or a gloriously square-chinned "heroic" champion and warlord, he is The God Of Destruction, and as a god he will take whatever form and whatever guise works best for each of his many purposes. Talos isn't interested in destroying a life or a fortune or a future out of some motivation like pain or suffering or hardship (and there are already lesser gods for such petty things!), but I think Talos would not hesitate to destroy one person while sparing many others when doing so would create generations of violence, vengeance, and vendettas filled with many inflated cycles of wantonly senseless and coldly-calculated destruction. Priests (Stormlords) of Talos shouldn't be incoherently-guttural random singletons and little gatherings incapable of collective strategy, action, meaningful accomplishments, long-term goals, or even the simplest details of personal hygiene. A few dangerous lone fanatics would be this way, I'm sure, just as with any other religion - indeed many religions find the omens and messages delivered by such haggard outcasts quite inspirational. But I think the majority of Talos's clergy would organize and operate not unlike the clergies of the other Greater Gods, I think the Realms is cheapened by the loss of all the wonderfully inventive "engines of destruction" and the countless prophecies, plots, spells, and curses an organized Church of Talos could provide.
Talos is not just all about wasteful destroying and destruction. He is strongest when his instruments of destruction are kept busy destroying things, not when they're destroyed - and it's all too easy for instruments of destruction to destroy each other, thus ending Talos's power over the world. So much of Talos' attention must be in *sustainable* destruction, lol - he needs to plant, cultivate, and grow his seeds of destruction into the fruits of destruction, he is at his strongest when his fruits of destruction bear destructive seeds of their own, a veritable garden of destruction just waiting to be destroyed! I think the true nectar of destruction sipped by Talos is rarified and purely symbolic - it might involve the destruction of divinely-inspired masterpieces of art and magic and architecture and craft, the destruction of a royal lineage or a mythal or an entire species, the destruction of an orphanage or a popular mascot or a child's favourite toy. But huge craters and rubble and body counts aren't as palatable - people keep building, people keep procreating, after a while it all looks the same, uninteresting, common, cheap junk, hardly worth the effort to destroy. Even lives aren't worth destroying unless they're truly significant in unusual ways, individual lives (and souls) are a plentiful, cheap, and renewable commodity to greater gods. I'm not saying Talos is a jaded connoisseur, but he must exercise some restraint in his appetites so he might as well selectively feast on the heartiest fare available instead of being lazy and fattening himself up with cheap empty destructo-calories.
While Gruumsh is just all about orcs. And it just happens that orcs are (or at least used to be) superbly talented at destroying and destruction while being motivated to accomplish little else. Left to their natural devices (as they were prior to Wizbro's New Age Politically Correct Many-Arrows nonsense), orcs do indeed often act collectively to build and invent new things - but always weapons and methods which somehow create more destruction, always ways of letting orcs take what they want and destroying the rest. Good stuff, but I think too orc-centric to interest Talos.
So if Talos=Gruumsh then what does he do when the next orcish horde needs to be destroyed? |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 13 Nov 2016 00:29:45 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2016 : 01:09:43
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Root for both sides?
"Only the strong survive".  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2016 : 04:24:38
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Well, I learned something new. I studied up on the Faerunian gods, as they are some of my favorite aspects  of the Realms, but I have never heard of the avatars of the same deity fighting each other. I have heard of a god sending out multiple avatars at one time, but not fighting each other. The idea of two avatars differing so much that they may even ventually become separate entities...
What sources have you read this in, if I may ask? I fully admit my collection of sourcebooks is limited. I have some on the deities, but I don't remember reading anything about avatars of the same deity differing from each other to that extent. I know the Seldarine are often depicted as both genders, but that's different. I also don't remember anything in the novels I have read that mentioned such things as avatars warring with each other.
I guess Old Empires is one such source? And I tbought I was up to date on my deity lore lol. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2016 : 12:34:19
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It is interesting thought that Avatars are aspects of the god not entirely under his command and if they are left alone too long they might split into a new god. As avatar have only part of full powers the god have it make sense the domains he has no hold over have lesser or no influence of that aspect/avatar. Each avatar also interacts with different situations and that might change their perspective. If we say that each avatar is made as an aspect of god and they start to differ from that point except their communication by which each can influence the other. God can reintegrate his avatars back but it might influence him more directly then leaving avatar as he is. Creation avatar is not an easy task so almost no god would create one-task avatars and reabsorb them. Those task are usualy left for lesser planar beings in his service.
There might also be a possibility to destroy and consume your own avatar with some loses on power but without the bias of your self (that might be the way for evil dieties).
This theory explain not only aspects of diety but also subsuming another diety position (creating avatar in form of that god) and also how some lesser dieties could have been created.
So for Sseth example the Varae would be avatar/aspect of Sseth that Seth didn't yet catched. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11972 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2016 : 14:15:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Talos=Gruumsh simply isn't viable to my mind. The Greater God Of Destruction. But destruction needn't be as obvious as smashing physical objects into little bits and killing random victims with impunity, it can be as subtle as a storm sinking a single supply ship so that a city full of starving people will riot and rampage and burn, it can be as sinister as destroying a person's hopes or dreams or reputation.
Depictions of Talos in Realmslore have been sad and shallow parodies: Talos is always presented as something of a clumsy, raving, smashing, lurching lunatic who angrily breaks everything he can grasp - his priests and servants are basically disposable mindless ruffians, utterly unkempt and uncivilized, savage murderers and vandals entirely lacking in subtlety and sanity. And I find this insulting. Talos could as easily be a wild-haired madman as a greasy-haired lawmaker or a steel-eyed tyrant or a gloriously square-chinned "heroic" champion and warlord, he is The God Of Destruction, and as a god he will take whatever form and whatever guise works best for each of his many purposes. Talos isn't interested in destroying a life or a fortune or a future out of some motivation like pain or suffering or hardship (and there are already lesser gods for such petty things!), but I think Talos would not hesitate to destroy one person while sparing many others when doing so would create generations of violence, vengeance, and vendettas filled with many inflated cycles of wantonly senseless and coldly-calculated destruction. Priests (Stormlords) of Talos shouldn't be incoherently-guttural random singletons and little gatherings incapable of collective strategy, action, meaningful accomplishments, long-term goals, or even the simplest details of personal hygiene. A few dangerous lone fanatics would be this way, I'm sure, just as with any other religion - indeed many religions find the omens and messages delivered by such haggard outcasts quite inspirational. But I think the majority of Talos's clergy would organize and operate not unlike the clergies of the other Greater Gods, I think the Realms is cheapened by the loss of all the wonderfully inventive "engines of destruction" and the countless prophecies, plots, spells, and curses an organized Church of Talos could provide.
Talos is not just all about wasteful destroying and destruction. He is strongest when his instruments of destruction are kept busy destroying things, not when they're destroyed - and it's all too easy for instruments of destruction to destroy each other, thus ending Talos's power over the world. So much of Talos' attention must be in *sustainable* destruction, lol - he needs to plant, cultivate, and grow his seeds of destruction into the fruits of destruction, he is at his strongest when his fruits of destruction bear destructive seeds of their own, a veritable garden of destruction just waiting to be destroyed! I think the true nectar of destruction sipped by Talos is rarified and purely symbolic - it might involve the destruction of divinely-inspired masterpieces of art and magic and architecture and craft, the destruction of a royal lineage or a mythal or an entire species, the destruction of an orphanage or a popular mascot or a child's favourite toy. But huge craters and rubble and body counts aren't as palatable - people keep building, people keep procreating, after a while it all looks the same, uninteresting, common, cheap junk, hardly worth the effort to destroy. Even lives aren't worth destroying unless they're truly significant in unusual ways, individual lives (and souls) are a plentiful, cheap, and renewable commodity to greater gods. I'm not saying Talos is a jaded connoisseur, but he must exercise some restraint in his appetites so he might as well selectively feast on the heartiest fare available instead of being lazy and fattening himself up with cheap empty destructo-calories.
While Gruumsh is just all about orcs. And it just happens that orcs are (or at least used to be) superbly talented at destroying and destruction while being motivated to accomplish little else. Left to their natural devices (as they were prior to Wizbro's New Age Politically Correct Many-Arrows nonsense), orcs do indeed often act collectively to build and invent new things - but always weapons and methods which somehow create more destruction, always ways of letting orcs take what they want and destroying the rest. Good stuff, but I think too orc-centric to interest Talos.
So if Talos=Gruumsh then what does he do when the next orcish horde needs to be destroyed?
Well said. To my mind, Gruumsh made a power play during the spellplague because Talos wasn't around. Auril ended up taking away a lot of the power Gruumsh tried to take on in the form of weather magic. With Talos returned, I see him as working to recover that power from Auril now. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Deity Aspects
