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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Jun 2017 : 19:33:29
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Well, 'Ancient (Elder) Gods' would be about as old as primordials - they would have all existed in the pre-Sundered world/plane. What would be differnt, IMO, would be their 'function'.
The way I look at it, the 'First World' was a vast plane (the concept of round worlds swimming in empty space, separated from each other physically, wasn't even born yet), and in that empty space the First gods (what I term Sidereals - each representing a physical dimension in M-theory) would have created other beings - actual ideas made sentient - in order to create things and fill the void. This is a very common theme in many mythologies (and I personally like the take from the classic movie, Time Bandits). They fashioned the Eternals (secondary concepts), who in-turn begat the Ordials. The Ordials were broken into several groups themselves, and the ones who were focused on the Prime Material (which, combined with the four elemental planes, was the dimension of 'Material', or, 'The Ymir') were the Prime Ordials (primordials). Other Ordials were in-charge of more esoteric concepts, like sentience, light, Good & Evil, shadow & Darkness, deception, etc., etc. Those other Ordials would be the Ancient Gods - the first Gods, that are NOT deities (ascended mortals). And, of course, amongst all of those there were various levels of power (and I would assume that this is when the first of them became 'power hungry', growing jealous of the amount others had control over).
In the beginning, the idea is that all these beings - really all just concepts within the mind of an even greater whole (whether that be THE GOD, or the universe t=itself - really just splitting hairs here) - were building something together. all were part of that original 'Celestial Bureaucracy'. But once the first Godwar broke out, they all took sides (including neutrality, which IS a side, whether they wanted it to be or not). In fact, in those early days of the war, presumably 'Good & Evil' were on the same side vs chaos (that from some of the lore regarding the 'fall' of Asmodeus), and by the end of the war the sides themselves had fractured into dozens of factions (probably the very first pantheons).
So, Primordials and 'Ancient Gods' are both 'Ordials' (my own term), but if we look at the Universe as a vast construction project, the Primordials were the engineers who got the job done, and those others - the Ancient, Elder Gods - were the 'planners'. THEY figured out the 'why' of what was being built, and where. In other words, the 'architects' (and perhaps that were the 'Archtypes' came from). Who knows? Maybe the Godwar started out as Union Dispute.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 28 Jun 2017 19:40:06 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2017 : 19:46:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
In one scene of the Everis Cale trilogy, the protagonists travel to the Plane of Shadows (which would now be the Shadowefell), and come across the 'Fane of Shadows' (IIRC), which is some sort of shrine to multiple shadow-gods, in the form of large statues. Its never stated if the others are from off-world (but one might assume at least a few were), and the only one actually mentioned to be 'recognizable' as another FR deity is Mask. Now, some might be from other regions of Toril, including some of the unnamed landmasses, but there were quite a few of them, IIRC.
The biggest 'reveal' of that scene is that Shar's statue towered over them all, and its hinted-at that the size of the statue may represent a level of power.
Thus, if that 'field of statues' was multi-spheric - and there's no reason to think its not, considering its in a transitive plane that connects to all others - than apparently Shar IS THE GOD of 'Shadows'. She could possibly be likened to Asmodeus; as he is to hell, she is to the Shadowfell.
Conjecture of course, based on the musings of the characters, which may or may not be 'the truth' (since we are dealing with gods of obfuscation and lying).
EDIT:
Further conjecture/theory:
IF all planes/spheres have their own Overpower (what I have termed in the past as a 'Spheric Guardian'), then perhaps Shar is the Overgod of the Shadowfell. What that would mean is that whereas Ao reigns supreme in Toril's Crystal Sphere, Shar would out-rank him in the Plane of Shadows.
In theory.
What's odd, though, about the Fane of Shadows thing, and about Shar's association with all things shady, in general, is the fact that even in 3E, Mask was the god of shadows, while Shar was the goddess of the dark. Certainly, there is overlap there, but the two are not wholly synonymous, since shadow cannot exist without light.
This has bugged me since 3E came out. We suddenly got this intense enmity with Mystra, the sudden prominence of a deity that hadn't been at all prominent before, the apparent usurpation of a portfolio, and then the connection of all evil in the Realms to Shar. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2017 : 19:57:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Well, 'Ancient (Elder) Gods' would be about as old as primordials - they would have all existed in the pre-Sundered world/plane. What would be differnt, IMO, would be their 'function'.
{...}
So, Primordials and 'Ancient Gods' are both 'Ordials' (my own term), but if we look at the Universe as a vast construction project, the Primordials were the engineers who got the job done, and those others - the Ancient, Elder Gods - were the 'planners'. THEY figured out the 'why' of what was being built, and where. In other words, the 'architects' (and perhaps that were the 'Archtypes' came from). Who knows? Maybe the Godwar started out as Union Dispute.
That's kind of what I was getting at. The ancient gods and primordials existed at the same time, but their nature/desires, whatever you want to call it, was different, and thus their function would be different. I have always viewed the primordials as more "primal". |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2017 : 23:24:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
What's odd, though, about the Fane of Shadows thing, and about Shar's association with all things shady, in general, is the fact that even in 3E, Mask was the god of shadows, while Shar was the goddess of the dark. Certainly, there is overlap there, but the two are not wholly synonymous, since shadow cannot exist without light.
Spoilers for the Godborn below, on the relationship between Mask and Shar (from Drasek Riven's perspective):
quote:
Mask kept his secrets even from Riven, letting him in on the game only a little at a time. And the game, it turned out, had been a long con. Mask had played them all, including his mother, Shar. Mask had been Shar’s herald on Toril, the prophet who started her Cycle of Night, a divine process that had repeated itself countless times across the multiverse, and had, in the process, destroyed countless worlds. And each time, on each world, the cycle ended the same way, had to end the same way—with Shar consuming the divinity of her herald. The divine cannibalism of her own offspring allowed the Lady of Loss to incarnate fully, and once she did, she reduced everything in the world to nothing. Cycles of Night had left the multiverse pockmarked with holes. Voids of nothingness were the footprints Shar left as she stalked through reality. Riven knew the amount of life she’d destroyed in the process, and it nauseated even him. And apparently it had been too much for Mask, also, for when it came to Toril, he hadn’t played his part. “The cycle must be broken,” Riven said, the words exiting his mouth, but not feeling at all like his own words. On Toril, Shar had consumed only a portion of Mask’s divinity, for he’d hidden the rest away, and what she’d consumed was not enough to finish the cycle, not enough to allow her to incarnate.
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Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2017 : 00:45:58
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quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
What's odd, though, about the Fane of Shadows thing, and about Shar's association with all things shady, in general, is the fact that even in 3E, Mask was the god of shadows, while Shar was the goddess of the dark. Certainly, there is overlap there, but the two are not wholly synonymous, since shadow cannot exist without light.
Spoilers for the Godborn below, on the relationship between Mask and Shar (from Drasek Riven's perspective):
quote:
Mask kept his secrets even from Riven, letting him in on the game only a little at a time. And the game, it turned out, had been a long con. Mask had played them all, including his mother, Shar. Mask had been Shar’s herald on Toril, the prophet who started her Cycle of Night, a divine process that had repeated itself countless times across the multiverse, and had, in the process, destroyed countless worlds. And each time, on each world, the cycle ended the same way, had to end the same way—with Shar consuming the divinity of her herald. The divine cannibalism of her own offspring allowed the Lady of Loss to incarnate fully, and once she did, she reduced everything in the world to nothing. Cycles of Night had left the multiverse pockmarked with holes. Voids of nothingness were the footprints Shar left as she stalked through reality. Riven knew the amount of life she’d destroyed in the process, and it nauseated even him. And apparently it had been too much for Mask, also, for when it came to Toril, he hadn’t played his part. “The cycle must be broken,” Riven said, the words exiting his mouth, but not feeling at all like his own words. On Toril, Shar had consumed only a portion of Mask’s divinity, for he’d hidden the rest away, and what she’d consumed was not enough to finish the cycle, not enough to allow her to incarnate.
I've ready that... But it doesn't really change the fact that when Shade was unleashed on the Realms, everything shadow-related was connected to a deity that didn't cover shadows, while the deity who did cover them was shunted to the side. |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2017 : 01:06:17
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Because all along he was Shar's herald! Just because we didn't hear about in earlier editions doesn't make it not true.
...of course, more truthfully, this was far more likely to be something added much later. But the fact remains is that it's the story FR canon seems to be going with. I think the developments in the Godborn could be used to help explain the 3e changes, but if you didn't like the 3e changes in the first place, it doesn't help you.
I'm still only scratching the surface in my own FR delvings, but I haven't yet come across any glaring inconstencies that can't explained by some gentle nudging. Hopefully that continues to be true in the many years to come... if I was in love with the Realms as they are now, and then the powers that be suddenly dropped the ToT/Shade/Spellplague on me, I might be disillusioned with their commitment to canon too. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2017 : 01:49:06
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| So, based on the events in Twilight Wars, and in the Godborn, Mask is, in a way, the hero who saves Toril from Shar lol. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Misereor
Learned Scribe
164 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2017 : 11:03:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The Ordials were broken into several groups themselves, and the ones who were focused on the Prime Material (which, combined with the four elemental planes, was the dimension of 'Material', or, 'The Ymir') were the Prime Ordials (primordials). Other Ordials were in-charge of more esoteric concepts, like sentience, light, Good & Evil, shadow & Darkness, deception, etc., etc. Those other Ordials would be the Ancient Gods - the first Gods, that are NOT deities (ascended mortals). And, of course, amongst all of those there were various levels of power (and I would assume that this is when the first of them became 'power hungry', growing jealous of the amount others had control over).
Very close to my take on it.
Primordals are generally descried as having been born of the primal chaos.
The way I see it, Life when it first arose, had to take *some* form, and it used what was available. That is why the first Gods/Primordials are related to universal stuff like Light, Darkness or Time, while concepts such as Honor or Lies only became sources of power (portfolios) much later, because they simply didn't exist at the time, or at least not in sufficient portions.
Sort of like the Original Death discussion. Life is prerequisite for Death after all, so it cannot have existed until some time after the emergence of Life, be it a milisecond or an eon of eons.
So while the primordials and ancient gods may not have been twins, they were at least first cousins, in that they emerged from naturally occurring phenomena. And by the mere fact of having forms, they began to influence reality around themselves, thereby seting the stage for more emergences (and incidentally creation myths).
Who or what or if anything preceded these beings is an excellent question, but since life didn't exist yet, their existence would not be 'life' as we understand it. Whether they consciously chose to create offspring or if other beings arose as natural cause and effect or both (and in which order) is a mystery. But whether they should be called ordials, eternals, etc. is IMHO a matter of grading/tiering their emergence, age, and power rather than categorizing them as a 'species'. The spontaneously spawned beings are all of one kind. The beings they created, whether immortal offspring or manifactured mortal species do not belong to the same category, even if they are (obviously) related to their parents.
So to sum up:
- Creation happens, whether spontaneously or by design.
(Maybe Ao & his boss(es) did it, or maybe they arrived later.)
- Reality starts taking shape, and the first beings emerge.
(Ptah, Shar, Selune. "Primordial" concepts, excuse the pun.)
- As reality becomes more structured, more beings emerge. Things are still pretty chaotic compared to later ages, and so in return are the beings which emerge.
(Which is why primordials tend to be destructive. They are not really compatible with the present level of structuredness of reality. This is also the age of the celestial bureaucracy you describe. They may fight, but they are not separated into factions.)
- Stuff like Suns and Stars are created, and so Sun and Star gods emerge. As of yet there is no worship.
(Also sometime during this or the previous step comes the Obyrith incursion, which is a rather significant tangent, since they manage to infect individuals amongst both gods, primordials and mortals.)
- Whether by design, natural cause and effect, or both, mortal species emerge.
- Mortal species spend time and energy wondering about the world around them, and come to conclusions = Belief/Faith.
(What is the Sun? --> Sun God suddenly gets a suprise energy infusion.)
- Some immortal beings start becoming dependent on Faith energy. Some by choice, others inadvertently. Sometimes others of their kind resent this, sometimes the faith-dependent resent their non-dependent peers.
(Now factionalism occurs. Also discovered at this time is the power and nature of souls.)
- Gods design faith systems, divine carrots and sticks, afterlives, start interfernig on behalf of their followers, etc. Religion is born.
- As mortals spread across the worlds, there is less room for primordials. Some are weakned, some die, and some becomes angry enough to escalate factionalism into all-out war.
(Dawn War. All-out slaughter.)
- Eventually mortals become numerous enough that mortal ideas become a major source of faith energy, and so a new type of deities emerge. This time they are not born from natural but rather mortal-induced phenomena or even pure metaphysical concepts, like Home and the Hearth, Livestock, Agriculture, Libraries and Glyphs, Honesty, Integrity, Rulership, Gluttony, Lust, etc.
(Since these gods are different, they should be termed differently. God, Power, Deity. Something.)
- The primordials are on the defensive, and take desperate measures. Dendar eats the sun. Asgorath tests his throwing arm. Ubtao defects.
- The conflict ends. Some primordials (like Asgorath) assume godhood, some die, smoe leave, and some are imprisoned or banished. And some bide their time.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
if we look at the Universe as a vast construction project, the Primordials were the engineers who got the job done, and those others - the Ancient, Elder Gods - were the 'planners'. THEY figured out the 'why' of what was being built, and where.
I firmly agree. But it certainly didn't happen because everyone agreed on how to proceed or what their place in the project should be. 
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What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder, stronger, in a later edition. |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2017 : 09:18:08
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The stories about the beginning of Realmspace in Faiths and Avatars, Faiths and Pantheons, and the FRCS all talk about Selune and Shar "coalescing" out of the:
primordial essence of light and dark in the misty realm of shadows (F&A)
protoplasmic raw existence/swirling chaos (F&P)
shadowy essence of the misty realm of shadows (FRCS)
In the FRCG we get a bit more information:
quote:
...detritus remaining from [the universe's] creation coalesced around the universe as an ocean of silvery liquid. From this glittering realm of starlight formed beautiful twin beings, polar opposites of each other, one dark and one light.
I interpret this as: when Ao creates the crystal sphere of Realmspace, he creates a connection between it and the Outer Planes. This connection is the "ocean of silvery liquid" referred to as the FRCG - or the Astral Sea. We also know that Shar has been active annihilating other worlds, although the timeline of this is unclear. However, we also are led to believe that before the creation of Chauntea, Shar and Selune were friends - "so close they thought of themselves as one being" (F&A). The same tome even goes so far as to call them the "Two-Faced Goddess".
So here's my theory, based on the above and The Godborn:
Selune and Shar are local incarnations of multiverse-wide forces - the force of creation/light and the force of annihilation/darkness. Overgods like Ao serve the force of Creation/UberSelune, and try to bring the universe to a Balance from whence life can spring. Annihilation/UberShar however, is the destroyer of worlds described in The Godborn. Her servants are the greater obyriths. The multiverse exists in a state of dangerous fluctuation between the dominance of these two forces.
When Ao creates the crystal sphere of Realmspace, he connects it to the Outer Planes. In doing so, a reservoir of divine power enters the crystal sphere, which is needed for the first gods to form. Fresh divine power like this resembles the base state of existence - the raw potential for both creation and annihilation. Thus, that energy initially takes the form of Selune and Shar - local manifestations of the multiverse-wide forces of creation and annihilation. If avatars are the forms gods use when they want a presence on the physical world, Selune and Shar are more like uber-avatars: the gods Creation and Annihilation use when they want a presence in the universe. These gods are not created with the full understanding of what they are, and thus initially get along quite well - until the potential for life is discovered and they realize they are destined to be enemies.
In most crystal spheres, the Overgod shapes these proto-Selune/Shar gods into gods more desirable to its purposes. However, Ao decides to let them be. He chooses to have both creation and annihilation as fundamental forces in his sphere, perhaps to better replicate the circumstances of the multiverse as a whole. When they first enter the sphere, they blend as a misty realm of shadow, and then eventually coalescing into the Selune and Shar we know today.
Meanwhile, throughout existence Creation/UberSelune works to maintain the balance, while Annihilation/UberShar works to destroy all. UberShar destroys many worlds and planes, often using the obyriths to do its work. When it nears a certain crystal sphere, it sends a portion of its divine energy to that world. That portion of divine energy acts to begin the Cycle of Night that will result in the world's destruction. On Abeir-Toril that was Mask. UberShar also makes the local "uber-avatar" of Shar aware of the Cycle of Night, and uses her clergy to bring it to fruition. Thus, Shar acts for UberShar in The Godborn, and presumably the other Kemp books.
TL;DR: Selune and Shar coalesce into Realmspace as local godly uber-avatars of creation and annihilation, the fundamental forces of the multiverse. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2017 : 15:00:00
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I know Ed Greenwood is a fan of Michael moorcock's work (he used a lot of his gods in his original, pre-published FR article on 'The Gods' back in Dragon magazine). He is also a big fan of Roger Zelazny's Chronicles of Amber series. He 'borrowed' (or rather, was 'inspired by') stuff from many sources. A third 'biggie' would be the Chronicles of Narnia (and more specifically, the concept of 'The Wood Between the Worlds' - what Moorcock calls the Mittlemarch, and would be the Border Ethereal in D&D*). Thus, having read all the same material myself, I can get a 'feel' for how Ed pictures his world (and the greater D&Dverse).
One big concept Michael Moorcock puts forth is the multiverse (also used in the Amber novels), and 'the Gods'. In his various series, different gods have prominence, and some that appear in more than one world/setting behave and even look a bit differently in another. However, the god is still technically the same god - in one story I recall, Arioch recognizes and interacts with Elric, even though Elric is in a different, alternate setting. Elric recognizes the differences immediately, and even ponders on them a bit (the god itself seems to be unaware that it is different). To me, that a pretty major concept, and one I think Ed applies to the Realms (and perhaps other D&D designers have applied to the D&Dverse - and the Planescape cosmology - over the years). "The same, but different". Its where I get a lot of my musings on 'perception, faith, and reality', and how dogma (the 'known facts' of a setting) can influence all of those things. Dogma IS 'fact' within a setting. Thus, everything poured through that filter will verify the Dogma to be true. However, a different world may have a different dogma, with its own, different set of 'facts' (which CAN contradict the facts known elsewhere). Gods are part of the universe, and thus are affected by that dogma - what people expect to see, and how they expect a deity to behave, is how they look and behave. But the God isn't actually changing at all - only your 'awareness' of it is. Gods are actually just balls of energy, that your frail, mortal mind has to interpret. Some of this is even touched upon in the FR novel Prince of Lies - Mystra learns how to shift her own perception to that of another, and realizes even the gods see things differently from each other (they view everything through the 'filter' of their own awareness, preconceptions, portfolios, and desires). Basically, everyone is "living in their own private Idaho", gods and mortals alike.
So the bottom line is, that every setting might have a Shar and Selûne (and even a Mystra), but they would (likely) be called by other names in those places. And their behavior can be quite different, and they could have different portfolios as well. 'The same, but different". Its a pretty major concept of multiverses. The big difference between Gods and mortals is that every world might have its own, private version of Elric, or Conan, or Superman, and those ARE separate beings (maybe - Moorcock also had the concept of the 'Eternal Champion'), but THE GODS are the same being from world to world - only mortal perception of them changes.
One caveat: I think Primordials would be above all that - that they would not only be the same being no matter what, but their sheer power forces their own perception onto everything else, so basically, what you see is what you get. I think most Gods can do this when they focus on doing so - manipulate perception so that mortals see what they want them to see, but I think once you start to get into the 'Overgod tier' and higher, this happens automatically. Thus, another major difference between 'Gods' and Primordials. Because of their connection to mortals (through faith), the Gods become bound by Dogma. Maybe thats why most Primordials don't bother with religion or worshipers - its a two-way trap. A primordial can never be 'erased' (forgotten about) the way a God can.
*Actually, I would think the Mittlemarch is the Border Ethereal, and the 'Wood Between the Worlds' is the Ethereal, but I'm splitting hairs here, and both are influenced by mortal perception as well. In fact, now that I am putting a bit of thought into all of this, the 'Wood between the Worlds' might actually make a better Border Feywild (thinking here that if the Ethereal has a border-plane of its own, why can't others?). To take it a step further, the 'Plane of Shadows' might just be the Veil between the Worlds (I think I got that one from the SoT series), and function as the Border Shadowfell. Not that mortals would be able to tell the differences, as they move through these regions, from one to another. Its also beyond our understanding, since you should be able to move in (at least) eleven directions to get to anywhere else, and beings from the Prime Material are used to only thinking in terms of three.
In fact, that could explain part of the reason why gods are so powerful - they can see into these 'other places' and moved toward them, in directions we can't fathom. Perhaps 'Godhood' is nothing more than Greater Awareness.
Maybe... 'Godhood' isn't something you earn at all. Maybe, everyone is a god, right form the beginning, but we just don't know it. Its almost like mortals are born with a birth defect - the inability to access all those 'higher planes of awareness'. Once that gets unlocked, they become a god. Faith (and the dogma that goes with it) is what can unlock some of that power.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 30 Jun 2017 15:09:38 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2017 : 17:01:34
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
So, based on the events in Twilight Wars, and in the Godborn, Mask is, in a way, the hero who saves Toril from Shar lol.
Which is why my take on things has been that Leira was involved in the whole fiasco, and she was working with Mask. The two gods working together can fit much. To a degree, I think they even have an unhealthy love/hate relationship. I then throw in Savras and Leira working together strictly for the betterment of magic / the weave. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2017 : 17:11:55
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I have two theories, myself...
1)Shar and Selûne are both local powers... We know, though, that when they first battled, gods came in from beyond the Realms. I theorize that this led to Shar's awareness of other worlds, which she then set out to destroy because the whole "nothingness" shtick is very much her gig.
I'm not real keen on this theory, and honestly, the whole Fane of Shadows and Shar being a destroyer of worlds thing is more trouble to incorporate than it's worth, thinks I.
Which leads to my second, preferred theory:
2)Shar and Selûne are both local powers... But at some point, a highly destructive interloper from elsewhere came in to contact with Shar, and she slew and absorbed this interloper. So it wasn't Shar that destroyed all those other worlds -- it was a fallen power that is now part of Shar. Hence, Shar gets all the credit for it, and she knows how it was done, but the truth is that she's taken the place of the one that actually did it.
If we assume that this interloper was, for some reason, not at full strength, it could explain how Shar was able to best him/her/it. And going this way, we keep with prior lore of Shar arising in Realmspace, we have an explanation for why she gets credit for destroying other worlds, and even better, an explanation for why other worlds were apparently destroyed at her hand yet she's been unable to do the same to Toril.
(Alternatively, Shar could be acting on behalf of the interloper. Those in the Fane, being from Toril, saw Shar's face on the interloper because she is, in essence, his Realms avatar. Mask's thoughts on the whole thing were filtered through this perspective. After all, if Shar had been doing this routine for a long time, and ate her herald each time -- how would the new herald know about it?) |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 30 Jun 2017 17:18:26 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2017 : 18:48:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I have two theories, myself...
1)Shar and Selûne are both local powers... We know, though, that when they first battled, gods came in from beyond the Realms. I theorize that this led to Shar's awareness of other worlds, which she then set out to destroy because the whole "nothingness" shtick is very much her gig.
I'm not real keen on this theory, and honestly, the whole Fane of Shadows and Shar being a destroyer of worlds thing is more trouble to incorporate than it's worth, thinks I.
Which leads to my second, preferred theory:
2)Shar and Selûne are both local powers... But at some point, a highly destructive interloper from elsewhere came in to contact with Shar, and she slew and absorbed this interloper. So it wasn't Shar that destroyed all those other worlds -- it was a fallen power that is now part of Shar. Hence, Shar gets all the credit for it, and she knows how it was done, but the truth is that she's taken the place of the one that actually did it.
If we assume that this interloper was, for some reason, not at full strength, it could explain how Shar was able to best him/her/it. And going this way, we keep with prior lore of Shar arising in Realmspace, we have an explanation for why she gets credit for destroying other worlds, and even better, an explanation for why other worlds were apparently destroyed at her hand yet she's been unable to do the same to Toril.
(Alternatively, Shar could be acting on behalf of the interloper. Those in the Fane, being from Toril, saw Shar's face on the interloper because she is, in essence, his Realms avatar. Mask's thoughts on the whole thing were filtered through this perspective. After all, if Shar had been doing this routine for a long time, and ate her herald each time -- how would the new herald know about it?)
And this interloper is entropy, a primordial being who was entrapped by Ao because of his danger (and the sphere of nothingness after the spellplague down in Chessenta wasn't the only one, so he may exist in multiple places at the same time). He is some kind of primordial who is also tied to insanity (thus the Karanok insanity). Some might link him to Tharizdun or some other entity like the one that tried to destroy Krynn. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2017 : 19:31:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I know Ed Greenwood is a fan of Michael moorcock's work (he used a lot of his gods in his original, pre-published FR article on 'The Gods' back in Dragon magazine). He is also a big fan of Roger Zelazny's Chronicles of Amber series. He 'borrowed' (or rather, was 'inspired by') stuff from many sources. A third 'biggie' would be the Chronicles of Narnia (and more specifically, the concept of 'The Wood Between the Worlds' - what Moorcock calls the Mittlemarch, and would be the Border Ethereal in D&D*). Thus, having read all the same material myself, I can get a 'feel' for how Ed pictures his world (and the greater D&Dverse).
One big concept Michael Moorcock puts forth is the multiverse (also used in the Amber novels), and 'the Gods'. In his various series, different gods have prominence, and some that appear in more than one world/setting behave and even look a bit differently in another. However, the god is still technically the same god - in one story I recall, Arioch recognizes and interacts with Elric, even though Elric is in a different, alternate setting. Elric recognizes the differences immediately, and even ponders on them a bit (the god itself seems to be unaware that it is different). To me, that a pretty major concept, and one I think Ed applies to the Realms (and perhaps other D&D designers have applied to the D&Dverse - and the Planescape cosmology - over the years). "The same, but different". Its where I get a lot of my musings on 'perception, faith, and reality', and how dogma (the 'known facts' of a setting) can influence all of those things. Dogma IS 'fact' within a setting. Thus, everything poured through that filter will verify the Dogma to be true. However, a different world may have a different dogma, with its own, different set of 'facts' (which CAN contradict the facts known elsewhere). Gods are part of the universe, and thus are affected by that dogma - what people expect to see, and how they expect a deity to behave, is how they look and behave. But the God isn't actually changing at all - only your 'awareness' of it is. Gods are actually just balls of energy, that your frail, mortal mind has to interpret. Some of this is even touched upon in the FR novel Prince of Lies - Mystra learns how to shift her own perception to that of another, and realizes even the gods see things differently from each other (they view everything through the 'filter' of their own awareness, preconceptions, portfolios, and desires). Basically, everyone is "living in their own private Idaho", gods and mortals alike.
So the bottom line is, that every setting might have a Shar and Selûne (and even a Mystra), but they would (likely) be called by other names in those places. And their behavior can be quite different, and they could have different portfolios as well. 'The same, but different". Its a pretty major concept of multiverses. The big difference between Gods and mortals is that every world might have its own, private version of Elric, or Conan, or Superman, and those ARE separate beings (maybe - Moorcock also had the concept of the 'Eternal Champion'), but THE GODS are the same being from worOne caveat: I think Primordials would be above all that - that they would not only be the same being no matter what, but their sheer power forces their own perception onto everything else, so basically, what you see is what you get. I think most Gods can do this when they focus on doing so - manipulate perception so that mortals see what they want them to see, but I think once you start to get into the 'Overgod tier' and higher, this happens automatically. Thus, another major difference between 'Gods' and Primordials. Because of their connection to mortals (through faith), the Gods become bound by Dogma. Maybe thats why most Primordials don't bother with religion or worshipers - its a two-way trap. A primordial can never be 'erased' (forgotten about) the way a God can.
I agree with this to some extent. It holds merit (I fully admit I am not familiar with any mentioned things Ed has drawn inspo from, so I can't really compare).
I remember that scene from Prince of Lies, in which each of the deities sees the others differently (Talos sees the others as storms, IIRC). Oghma sees them dressed in robes. Mortals can't know the true form of the gods, so the gods pick a form (avatar) mortals would understand. It reminds me of that old moive, Oh, God! in which God comes to Earth in the form of an old man, and says, "I picked a form you would understand."
So, if the gods are "balls of [sentient] energy", they are essentially beyond form, and exist simultaneously in multiple realities. Silvanus is Silvanus on Toril, but may be known as Grengo (random name) in universe X, or heck, even planet X, and the energy that exists as Silvnaus/Grengo is considered both with what is happening on Toril and in planet and/or universe X. If sh*t is going down in Toril that concerns Silvanus' followers, "he" is going to be concerned about it, but Grengo may not be, since "he" is focused on what is going on in world X.
I still like the idea of the deities being individual entities, but the above theory would also explain how the gods can exist in multiple worlds, and you can't truly kill a god unless you destroy all its followers. I think this has been discussed before, but when these "balls of energy" create different forms of itself, these forms take on personalities that make them an individual. It's almost like having multiple personalities, but on a much deeper level. Silvanus is Silvanus, with the portfolio and desire of Silvanus. But elsewhere, Silvanus is also Grengo, with perhaps a different personality, but maybe a similar portfolio. The ball of energy that consists of Silvanus, Grengo, and others, could be the universal "domain" of wild places, nature, etc. Since I personally don't like the idea of the deities on the same plane being aspects of each other, there are multiple balls of energy that share similar portfolios (thus Chauntea and Mielikki exist alongside Silvanus).
Ergo, while all these gods may extend from balls of sentient energy (like the arms of an octopus), they over time became true individuals, existing both as a god and as a facet/arm of a truly greater being.
Or, the multiverse really does contain many, many gods, and, while still beyond mortal perception (they still take form we can understand), Silvanus doesn't stem from a ball of energy. He is, and always has been Silvanus, but still exists in multiple worlds, and may or may not go by the name Silvanus. This could loop back to the theory I mentioned above. Silvanus is the ball of sentient energy, and extends different "facets" of his personality to various worlds. So, the various "Silvanus'" may or may be similar in personality.
When a mortal undergoes apotheosis and becomes a god (like Sheverash, or Cyric, who became a greater deity), they shed their mortal coil, and obtain the "greater awareness". Their "journey" is different from those who have always been gods (the ancients, so to speak). They don't start out as multispheric, and have to obtain that as their godhood, and understanding of said godhood, continues. Since they have shed their mortal coil, and thus mortal restrictions on perception, they are able to gain a greater understanding of the multiverse, and exist on a multi-planar level.
Perhaps part of this process is learning to extend their awareness to more than one world. Perhaps Sheverash only exists on Toril at this point, because his concern and portfolio is very much tied to Faerun at this point. He is a "single spheric" deity at this point, which is why he hasn't been able to move beyond demigod or lesser god status.
I'm just throwing stuff out and rambling at this point lol. Musing as I type.
[I used ball of energy as the "form" for the sake of consistency]. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2017 : 20:41:39
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In my musings, I've extended the way Avatars work, since they are like like 'copies' of the gods. Each avatar can look and behave differently, and could even begin to have its own, distinct personality if separated from the 'host' god for too long (which is what i feel is precisely what happens when a god 'breaks off' a piece of itself and creates a self-aware Avatar to develop a presence in another Sphere (I've dubbed those 'Ubertars'). Its precisely what happened with the Mulan deities when they came to Realmspace (and then they further fragmented, creating those 'Greater Manifestations').
In fact, perhaps Shar is one of those that was separated from a more ancient power (and maybe Selûne as well - two different Ubertars could have been manifested in Realmspace; 'sisters' because they both came from the same progenitor deity). Thus, if we apply Wooly's 2nd theory, perhaps what he thinks happened actually happened in reverse (that Shar was once part of something like that). And both versions could work - a piece is broken off, and it splits in two (Light & Darkness), and then the original enters Realmspace trying to collect its dispersed energy, and Shar attacks it and somehow overpowers the original, absorbing it (so like in many mythologies, the 'children' rebel against the parent, and take its place).
@Wooly - except for one thing: WE KNOW that the world Shar and Selûne first manifested in no longer exists. We KNOW this - its canon. We call that world Abeir-Toril, and we know that it was split into (at least) two pieces - Abeir, and Toril. That allows us to speculate that all of that is being fed to us through the filter of FR - that thats how someone from The Realms would perceive it.
Moving outward to 'greater (D&D) canon', we have that article, written by Gary Gygax in the first issue of Dragon magazine, that says all (D&D) worlds are just pale reflections of an original one. We also know, as its most basic premise, that The Forgotten Realms is a sort of 'hub' of the universe; that there are connections to just about everywhere else.
So when we put the two together, and add-in what we know about the Sundering and the Spellplague (that both affected myriad worlds, not just Toril, or Abeir), it would appear that First World - the one we've been calling Abeir-Toril - may have been (or at least, been part of) that 'First World'. The world around which Shar and Selûne were spawned.
Thus, FR lore/canon remains intact, even if those two are 'multispheric', because they did indeed first appear in 'The Realms' (around Toril/Faerûn), but that world was shattered, and at least two new worlds were created from it. If I am right, and the whole Prime Material was created from that Sundered world (because it was actually just a flat plane), that means everything works. We CAN have our cake and eat it too. 
On the other hand, Shar 'eating and absorbing' some ancient, elder Galactus-like God could also work. Personally, if I were to use that, I'd spin that as piece of 'Pure Evil' that she got her hands on (some bit of Cthon from the Far Realms which drove her mad). In fact... Far Realms... Forgotten Realms - it seems the universe may have had those two divisions right from the beginning (maybe the 'Near Realms', and the 'Far Realms' - the Far Realms being that stuff outside of the normal, D&Dverse... which is still apart of it... sort of.
@Slevas - going with what I just said above, 'Entropy' itself could have been that piece of Cthonic matter, snuck into the Prime Material somehow, which set-off the first godwar. I still like using Erebus for that (in my cosmology, his realm is the paper-thin - yet infinite - border realm that separates the expanding bubble of the universe from the stuff outside - the pure chaos of the primordial soup (the Far Realms). Somehow, he is the only being able to touch the Far Realms without being driven mad by it. The Black Diamond may have also been another chunk of that. Beings like Tharizdun/Shathrogot/Ghaunadaur may just be other gods, long-corrupted by bits of Cthonic matter (I am going down this route right now because I have some new lore I want to write-up regarding the Creator Races, and the Illithids). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 30 Jun 2017 20:48:34 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2017 : 22:12:35
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Well, I personally think the First World is somewhere else, and I also think that Abeir isn't as much a world unto itself as it is a demiplane -- something like a lesser clone, only reachable from Toril's Prime. Even if Abeir is in fact a planet, I think it is a copy of the original, and not a literal split of one planet into two.
Also, to me, the fact that there are common creatures on all the campaign worlds suggests a common source, and I think that that source can't be the Realms when we know so much of what's in the Realms -- including a lot of its deities -- came from somewhere else. |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2017 : 00:40:14
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Here's my latest working theory for an encompassing timeline of Abeir-Toril, the First Work, and Earth. It uses parts of my Creation/Annihilation theory and emphasizes the importance of those three crystal spheres.
13.8 billion years ago: Creation (the luminous presence Ao later reports to) sparks the Big Bang. The multiple planes, the primordials, and the Overgods are created. The primordials go to work on the Prime Material Plane, organizing it into planets and planetary systems. The Overgods meanwhile bide their time, waiting for a time when the planets seem capable of forming life.
4.5 billion years ago: Earth is formed thanks to the efforts of the primordials, the latest in a line of innumerable planets throughout the universe forged by them. The Overgods decide that this world is one with perhaps the greatest potential for life in the multiverse thus far, and subsequently decide that this is an appropriate time to act to stop the primordials' shaping of worlds - to keep Earth intact. Thus, the Overgods create the Crystal Spheres, keeping the primordials (and the phlogiston) from interfering with the worlds of the Prime Material Plane that they select.
From this time, each Overgod gradually works to strengthen the connection between their crystal sphere and the Outer Plane. As this connection is strengthened, the Overgods become gradually more empowered with the potential to create gods.
1 million years ago: From this point on, the connections between the crystal spheres and the Outer Plane become strong enough that the Overgods begin to utilize the divine reservoirs of power that they possess. They craft the first gods out of their understanding of creation and the universe, an understanding which differs from Overgod to Overgod. They command these gods to protect the Balance that nurtures life, and then withdraw to wait and watch. The first Overgod to create gods does so in the region of space that houses the world that will become known as the First Work.
Seeing the perfection of Earth, these early gods mostly concern themselves with trying to emulate Earth on other planets. They perform subtle shaping, and try to create the potential for life as best they can - but they do not yet have the ability to create life themselves.
The First Work goes on to become the best example of what the gods can do with a world, and many other gods from other spheres are drawn to it over the eons. In stark contrast, the Overgods deem Earth too vital to the universe to be meddled with, and so creates no gods are created there - allowing Earth's life to arise naturally.
Other Overgods soon create the gods of Greyspace, Krynnspace, and many other spheres.
500,000 years ago: The Overgod Ao forges the connection between the crystal sphere of Realmspace and the Outer Plane, having waited to be the last Overgod to do so. Having seen the gods created by the other Overgods, Ao is unimpressed, and decides he cannot improve on the design of the universe. Thus, he decides to leave the divine power coalescing out of the Astral Plane to form naturally, and see what results. Soon the gods Selune and Shar coalesce from that connection - reflections of the fundamental forces of Creation and Annihilation. Ao commands them to work on the worlds of Realmspace, and subsequently withdraws to wait and watch. However, soon after they create Chauntea, a war between Selune and Shar which continues to this day begins. Ao's plan does not prove foolish yet however, as Selune manages to win out over her darker sister, and many more gods form from their deific battles as time goes on.
200,000 years ago: Homo sapiens arises on Earth, and becomes the first truly sentient species to be discovered by the gods. A god of the First Work whose name is lost transports some of them to his own world. The gods soon realize that the faith of these humans empowers them and makes them stronger. Realizing this, they begin work on the Lattice of Heaven, a divine network designed to bring mortals to the Outer Plane when they die in return for divine service rather than go into oblivion. The network of the Lattice crosses across every divine realm in the Outer Plane.
Many different gods of the First Work try to create different races based on the human template, with the idea that they will make races that more suit their own temperaments. Thus, Corellon creates the elves, Moradin the dwarves, and so forth. Other gods decide to completely avoid the human template. Other, stranger races also appear over time, some of them crafted by gods, others arising naturally on other worlds.
100,000 years ago: Tharizdun, a god in the region of the First Work, discovers a shard of evil pushed through into his region of the Prime Material by the obyriths. This shard comes from an alternate universe created during the expansion of the universe - a universe where Annihilation was about to totally consume all creation. Tharizdun places the shard in the Elemental Chaos instead of the Astral Sea as the obyriths had desired, and begins to recruit primordials to help him retrieve it. He promises them victory over the gods who took their creations from them so long ago. The Dawn War between the gods and the primordials begins.
The Lattice of Heaven, the delicate structure that connected the gods' realms in the Outer Plane, is shattered by the primordial invasion. Many divine realms are totally destroyed, as is the precious connection that allowed the gods to more easily funnel the faith of their worshipers. The gods find that the Lattice system had been so finely integrated into their divine power that they themselves are broken - they become entirely reliant on divine worship for their power. Gods that go too long without worship "die" and become husks on the Astral Sea. Overgods find that they are able to shield the gods of their sphere if they so wish, but it comes at a cost so most do not. Ao, however, decides to shield his gods, and so they are not affected by the destruction of the Lattice (although he eventually decides to lower his shield in the Time of Troubles).
40,000 years ago: The Dawn War ends with the defeat of the primordials, and the worlds affected by the war (such as Abeir-Toril) begin to settle once more. The gods turn their attention to rebuilding the shattered Lattice of Heaven, in the hope of no longer having to rely on mortals for faith. Their endless battling however does not lead them to agree on a single Outer Plane like there was before, and eventually a divine compromise is met in the multiple Outer Planes of the Great Wheel.
Earth, due to its lack of gods at this time, is completely unaffected by the Dawn War. The flourishing of life here compared to the destruction wrought in other spheres leads gods to look at Earth with even more envy. Over the following millennia, gods from other spheres (such as Asgard) begin to migrate to Earth to try and absorb some of the faith-power there. The Overgod of Earthspace allows this, under the condition that these gods do not affect the world's natural cycles. Over time, many of these gods transport humans to other worlds to spread their faiths - especially once they begin to dwindle on Earth.
37,000 years ago: The ice age of Abeir-Toril comes to an end, and the Days of Thunder begin. The gods of Abeir-Toril at this time are varied - some of them sons and daughters of the battles of Selune and Shar, others forged in the Dawn War, and still others interlopers from other planes - some brought in to fight those battles, others simply arriving out of curiosity.
30,000 years ago: The First Work is destroyed in an enormous cataclysm, and the peoples of that sphere flee to other worlds and spheres throughout the Prime Material Plane. The elves, for example, end up on a world they call Faerie. They will later migrate from here to Toril. The gods of the First Work follow their peoples to various worlds. The god Corellon follows his people to Faerie, while Pelor arrives fully in Greyspace and the planet Oerth, having been a multispheric deity worshiped there. Achra/Bane comes to Toril, but soon dies from lack of worship - though his name and the remnants of his divine power will one day be inherited by a native of that world. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
Edited by - KanzenAU on 01 Jul 2017 00:40:54 |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2017 : 20:17:49
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quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
37,000 years ago: The ice age of Abeir-Toril comes to an end, and the Days of Thunder begin. The gods of Abeir-Toril at this time are varied - some of them sons and daughters of the battles of Selune and Shar, others forged in the Dawn War, and still others interlopers from other planes - some brought in to fight those battles, others simply arriving out of curiosity.
30,000 years ago: The First Work is destroyed in an enormous cataclysm, and the peoples of that sphere flee to other worlds and spheres throughout the Prime Material Plane. The elves, for example, end up on a world they call Faerie. They will later migrate from here to Toril. The gods of the First Work follow their peoples to various worlds. The god Corellon follows his people to Faerie, while Pelor arrives fully in Greyspace and the planet Oerth, having been a multispheric deity worshiped there. Achra/Bane comes to Toril, but soon dies from lack of worship - though his name and the remnants of his divine power will one day be inherited by a native of that world.
Just want to add a bit to the elven migration. Taking quotes from Grand History of the Realms and [o]Demihuman Deities[/I].
"-34,000
The otherworldly realm of Faerie is ruled by the fey (creators of korreds, sprites, and pixies). The fey continue tp rule to the present day.
-27,000
Continuing their work to undermine dragon rule, the Fey open new gates allowing the first elves to immigrate to Toril. These new primitive green elves worship the Faerie gods (not the Seldarine, who are unknown at this time). Although most green elves are content to remain in small scattered tribes, one group known as the Ilythiiri negotiates with the dragons and begins to carve out a small kingdom in the south.
-25,400
Fleeing the destruction of the island kingdom of Tintageer, on their home world of Faerie, a small circle of gold elves led by the young prince Durothil case a divination to find their new home--on the world of Toril--and then create a portal leading there. The refugees name their new home Faerun, the One Land. Integrating into the native green elf communities, the descendants of the gold elves of Tintageer become known as sun elves, while the descendants of the sole silver elf refugee, Sharlario Moonflower, become known as moon elves." (GHotR pg 7-8).
"The Seldarine are closely linked with the gods of the Seelie Court and other sylvan deities, and the Fair Folk often include prayers to other faerie powers when worshiping the Seldarine...Elven mythology holds that the Fair Folk were born of the blood which Corellon shed in his battles with Gruumsh and bathed in the tears of Sehanine (or Angharradh)...Some legends state that the first elves appeared fully formed in Corellon's image...other myths claim that at least some of the elven subraces--the gold and moon elves in particular--migrated to Abeir-Toril through magical gates from one or more other worlds, most commonly identified as 'Faerie'. (DD pg 92-93).
The Seldarine existed before the elves migrated to Toril (Araunshnee was banished from Arvandor in -30000 DR, before the green elves migrated to Toril, and Lolth doesn't become interested in Toril until -24400 DR).The second myth (the sun and moon elves migrating from Faerie) is supported by the quote from GHotR, and can go with your theory of the elves bringing Corellon (and the Seldarine at large) to Faerie, and then subsequently to Faerun. Likely, these myths are all linked (Corellon's blood created the sun and moon elves, at the very least), and they later migrated from Faerie, mingled with the green elf communities, and eventually, the Seldarine became the center of elven worship.
I realize this is ahead of the universe creation discussion, but I wanted to provide it as evidence to support the theory of the elves bringing the Seldarine with them, and admittedly, to draw my own conclusions, as I hadn't dug into the nuances before. Since the sun and moon elves at least appear to have been created by Corellon, whether the blood myth holds true or not, supports the theory of him being a creator god (existing before his followers, and creating them, and likely coming from another plane with some of the other deities). Later, the green elves took up worship of the Seldarine as well, once the sun and moon elves started mingling with them and elven civilization took hold on Faerun.
Also from GHotR (this is the first entry)
"35000 to 370000 DR
This earliest days of recorded history begin at the end of a great Ice Age, some 37,000 years ago, when the last glaciations largely ended and the great ocean receded to reveal dry land. In the ancient time before The Sundering, the lands which would one day be identified as Faerun, Kara-Tur, Maztica, and Zakhara were each but one part of a much larger super-continent named Maerruoroboros. None of the dozen or so comment races which populate the world today existed in this distant era...though humand did exist during this time, they were primitive and ape-like, using only simple tools and living in caves. These were the Days of Thunder, the time of the Iqua-Tel'Quessir, the fabled creator races" (pg 5).
I would say that many of the ancient gods who existed before their followers came from other planes (though if you go with the earlier theory of them being multispheric and existing simultaneously on various planes, you could argue they had followers on those planes, but I would say they still came first, and created said followers later). This would support your theory of Creation. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2017 : 02:19:41
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Great stuff CorellonsDevout. You got me thinking about how more complex gods might fit into this picture, gods like Annam. There's some lore out there that's hard to reconcile about Annam, or more specifically, the giants, but I'll give it a go. This works in some dwarven history too.
Annam the All-Father is said to be the son of a conjunction of Chaos and Law (Giantcraft)
Annam is the father of the giant gods by an unknown sky goddess, and the terrestrial giants of Toril by Othea (Giantcraft)
Piranoth, the World Mover, is the primordial creator of the earth, frost, and fire giants (4e RotG)
The titans (greater giants) were created by the primordials (4e W&M)
The giants (lesser giants) were created by the titans, modelled on humanlike forms (4e W&M)
The giants enslaved Moradin's dwarves (4e R&C, Dr391).
180,000 years ago: To reconcile that the giants were created by the primordial line, I'm going ahead and saying that Annam was once a primordial - but his story is also more complex, revolving around the unknown sky goddess with which he sires the giant gods. I think this unknown sky goddess must have imparted a portion of her divinity to Annam when they created the gods, turning him from a base primordial into the conjunction of Chaos and Law that he becomes as Annam the All Father. The divine seed of the sky goddess within him also ensures that his future progeny bear the template she has set down - a template based on the human design, just like that Moradin's dwarves and Corellon's elves were based on the human design.
Annam, empowered by this, seeks to create more beings like he did with the sky-goddess. Thus, he creates the first titans. Other primordials, such as Piranoth the World Mover, seek to follow their brother's design, and create their own titans. However, only Annam's titans prove capable of siring children, and go on to father the giants. Nevertheless, the giants of some worlds consider Piranoth their creator rather than Annam - but this is a lie sold to them by their Piranoth-created titan masters. Meanwhile, Annam goes to many worlds and fathers many new lines of titans and giants.
170,000 years ago: Moradin creates the first dwarves, based on the human template and his own ideas. Some of these dwarves stay free in Stoneroot on the First Work, but Moradin also grants many dwarves to the primordials. The primordials give the dwarves to the titans and giants of the world, who use them as slaves. Moradin does not notice their suffering until much later, during the Dawn War.
100,000 years ago: The Dawn War eventually comes, and Annam finds himself on the side of the gods rather than the primordials, his nature changed by the sky goddess. He desires to create something that lasts - an immortal dynasty - something no primordial is supposed to want.
70,000 years ago: Sometime during the Dawn War, Clangeddin leds a revolt of dwarves against the giants, and Moradin finally sees their suffering. However, many dwarves may remain in the chains of giants following this.
40,000 years ago: Annam finds himself drawn to the world of Abeir-Toril as the Dawn War ends.
35,000 years ago: Sometime after the end of Abeir-Toril's last ice age, Annam founds a new line of titans with an unknown goddess. These giants slowly grow to challenge the batrachi that are dominant at that time.
32,500 years ago: The titans war against the batrachi and are wiped out in the event known as the Tearfall.
31,500 years ago: Annam then creates a second line of titans and giants, this time mating with Othea. This produces the line we know today, descended from such titans as Ruk, Lanaxis and Vilmos, the founders of Ostoria.
30,000 years ago: The First Work, homeland of the dwarves, is destroyed. Giants use this opportunity to try and enslave many of the dwarves whom they consider their property.
17,500 years ago: A group of dwarves escape their endless conflict with the giants across the worlds of the multiverse to Toril, arriving in the Yehimals. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
Edited by - KanzenAU on 03 Jul 2017 02:45:40 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2017 : 03:37:05
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This may or may not help.
From GHotR:
“-30000 DR
The great giant god Annam All-Father marries Othea, a lesser demigoddess of Toril. Their union produces eight terrestrial children. Osteoria, the Colossal Kingdom, is founded by Annam in honor of his sons.
…
-25500 DR
Othea begins an affair with Ulutiu [-2550], a minor sea god of the Savage Frontier. The union of Othea and Ulutiu ultimately produces four sons: firbolg, verbeeg, voadkyn, and fomorian.” (pg 8).
From DD:
“While some nondwarven scholars claim that the Stout Folk migrated to the Realms from another crystal sphere early in the history of Abeir-Toril—perhaps through a gate located in the heart of the planet—the collective dwarven racial memory holds that their ancestors sprang fully formed from the heart of the world itself. The All-Father is said to have secretly fashioned dwarves of iron and mithral in his Soul Forge, using his huge magical hammer to beat the bodies into shape and then breathing on his creations to cool them and give them souls” (41).
“It is unknown when or where dwarves appeared in the Realms, but most dwarven legends trace the earliest settlements to of the Stout Folk back tens of thousands of years to the great mountain range known as Yehimal. It is believed that in a great exodus from the Yehimal, the Stout Folk spilt into two (or possibly three) major branches as they spread across Faerun, Kara-Tur, and Zakhara. Those who came to Faerun are believed to have first settled beneath modern-day Sempher before spreading westward, eventually fragmenting into four dwarven subraces.” (pg 42).
“-16000 DR
The first dwarf settlements appear in the great mountain range known as the Yehimal, which lies at the juncture of the three great continents of Faerun, Kara-Tur, and Zakhara. From there, the earliest dwarves migrated into all three lands” (GHotR pg 12).
Interestingly enough, both dwarves and giants call the leader of their pantheon the All-Father.
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Sweet water and light laughter |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2017 : 03:51:06
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Just to make sure we're on the same page, my dates are not DR, but from the present day - that's why I've recorded -16,000 DR as -17,500 years ago.
I would say that perhaps the dwarven racial memory thing is correct, but they just have the world wrong. Moradin forged them in the Soul Forge in the heart of the First Work beneath Stoneroot, and then after the destruction of the First Work he opened gates to the hearts of other worlds. Gates between the hearts of worlds would eventually lead them to the heart of Abeir-Toril. So both the non-dwarven scholars and dwarven memory are true, in a way.
The All-Father thing has been utilized before, I think someone (Markustay?) has talked before about them potentially being the same deity. I definitely think it's possible to rewrite Moradin and Annam into being the same being. Odin's the All-Father as well, and I bet there's other gods with the title. I think someone around here has pointed out the mOraDIN connection before too. However, I find these deities more interesting as separate beings, sharing the notation of All-Father isn't enough to go on for me.
Edit: Maybe the early giants made the dwarves worship the "All-Father", Annam, but the dwarves subverted this, pretending to worship the "All-Father", but in truth sending their prayers to Moradin. And so Moradin, the All-Father, stuck. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
Edited by - KanzenAU on 03 Jul 2017 04:14:23 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2017 : 04:20:55
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Billions of years? Sounds too 'sciency'.
I always thought that 'Creation' happened a mere 50K years ago. Anything more implies that 'the Gods' were able to get along all that time, up until the Godwar. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2017 : 04:33:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Billions of years? Sounds too 'sciency'.
I always thought that 'Creation' happened a mere 50K years ago. Anything more implies that 'the Gods' were able to get along all that time, up until the Godwar.
I'm invested in the canon real-world connections to the Realms, so that requires real-world history for better or worse. I've never really liked the idea of a gothic-earth equivalent (although I still have room for this in my cosmology, I prefer the Earth-Realms link to be to our Earth). I initially tried to avoid going down this path, but now that I'm on it I kind of like it.
I think that billions of years is completely workable for gods, who to some extent exist outside of time - perhaps especially so before they garner mortal worshipers, and perhaps even more so before the breaking of the Lattice of Heaven.
I don't think it necessarily has to imply the gods always got along, either. There could have been endless divine clashes over time that we just haven't heard about, whether the history is 500,000 years or 50,000 years. However, I would say that for my own purposes I consider the time before the breaking of the Lattice of Heaven as far more "timeless" from the gods' perspective - although time existed, there was simply no great impetus to do anything faster than anyone else.
I have the breaking of the Lattice of Heaven at 100,000 years ago (pretty arbitrary, could easily have been 50,000 years ago instead). Before this there could have been divine arguments (and indeed, Selune and Shar are one example), but I imagine there was less at stake before this period - gods suddenly became a lot more vulnerable after the breaking of the Lattice. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
Edited by - KanzenAU on 03 Jul 2017 04:36:32 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2017 : 04:48:40
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quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
The All-Father thing has been utilized before, I think someone (Markustay?) has talked before about them potentially being the same deity. I definitely think it's possible to rewrite Moradin and Annam into being the same being. Odin's the All-Father as well, and I bet there's other gods with the title. I think someone around here has pointed out the mOraDIN connection before too. However, I find these deities more interesting as separate beings, sharing the notation of All-Father isn't enough to go on for me.
Edit: Maybe the early giants made the dwarves worship the "All-Father", Annam, but the dwarves subverted this, pretending to worship the "All-Father", but in truth sending their prayers to Moradin. And so Moradin, the All-Father, stuck.
Yeah, I am sure "All-Father" is a likely a widely used term, I just noticed it, so I thought I would mention it. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2017 : 04:51:22
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We can also garner from Ed's words that Abeir-Toril is geologically at least 60,000 years old:
quote:
Originally posted by Ed Greenwood, 1st of November, 2006
As for the geological age of Toril, we don’t know for sure. However, I can say that the eldest elves and dragons who’ve considered the matter, and the best-informed human sages ditto, all tend to hold opinions that suggest Toril is twice as old as the Age of Thunder . . . or perhaps a LITTLE less.
The Age of Thunder went from -36,500 years ago to -31,500 years ago, so this means a little less than 73,000 to 63,000 years ago. Gray Richardson has theorized around 71,000 year ago in another thread, which seems reasonable.
I take this geological age of Toril as the last time primordials interfered in its shaping - which presumably happened before or during the Dawn War. This could mean either when Ao Selune/Shar kicked out the primordials 71,000 years ago, and the Dawn War started sometime later, or it means the primordials came back and modified the world during the Dawn War around 71,000 years ago. Either would work (as would other interpretations).
For my purposes I think the primordials being kicked out millennia ago by Ao, but then coming back and messing with Abeir-Toril again during the early Dawn War (just before Toril's Blue Age) at around 71,000 years ago works well. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
Edited by - KanzenAU on 03 Jul 2017 05:08:17 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2017 : 07:08:02
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I know Ed Greenwood is a fan of Michael moorcock's work (he used a lot of his gods in his original, pre-published FR article on 'The Gods' back in Dragon magazine). He is also a big fan of Roger Zelazny's Chronicles of Amber series. He 'borrowed' (or rather, was 'inspired by') stuff from many sources. A third 'biggie' would be the Chronicles of Narnia (and more specifically, the concept of 'The Wood Between the Worlds' - what Moorcock calls the Mittlemarch, and would be the Border Ethereal in D&D*). Thus, having read all the same material myself, I can get a 'feel' for how Ed pictures his world (and the greater D&Dverse).
One big concept Michael Moorcock puts forth is the multiverse (also used in the Amber novels), and 'the Gods'. In his various series, different gods have prominence, and some that appear in more than one world/setting behave and even look a bit differently in another. However, the god is still technically the same god - in one story I recall, Arioch recognizes and interacts with Elric, even though Elric is in a different, alternate setting. Elric recognizes the differences immediately, and even ponders on them a bit (the god itself seems to be unaware that it is different). To me, that a pretty major concept, and one I think Ed applies to the Realms (and perhaps other D&D designers have applied to the D&Dverse - and the Planescape cosmology - over the years). "The same, but different". Its where I get a lot of my musings on 'perception, faith, and reality', and how dogma (the 'known facts' of a setting) can influence all of those things. Dogma IS 'fact' within a setting. Thus, everything poured through that filter will verify the Dogma to be true. However, a different world may have a different dogma, with its own, different set of 'facts' (which CAN contradict the facts known elsewhere). Gods are part of the universe, and thus are affected by that dogma - what people expect to see, and how they expect a deity to behave, is how they look and behave. But the God isn't actually changing at all - only your 'awareness' of it is. Gods are actually just balls of energy, that your frail, mortal mind has to interpret. Some of this is even touched upon in the FR novel Prince of Lies - Mystra learns how to shift her own perception to that of another, and realizes even the gods see things differently from each other (they view everything through the 'filter' of their own awareness, preconceptions, portfolios, and desires). Basically, everyone is "living in their own private Idaho", gods and mortals alike.
So the bottom line is, that every setting might have a Shar and Selûne (and even a Mystra), but they would (likely) be called by other names in those places. And their behavior can be quite different, and they could have different portfolios as well. 'The same, but different". Its a pretty major concept of multiverses. The big difference between Gods and mortals is that every world might have its own, private version of Elric, or Conan, or Superman, and those ARE separate beings (maybe - Moorcock also had the concept of the 'Eternal Champion'), but THE GODS are the same being from worOne caveat: I think Primordials would be above all that - that they would not only be the same being no matter what, but their sheer power forces their own perception onto everything else, so basically, what you see is what you get. I think most Gods can do this when they focus on doing so - manipulate perception so that mortals see what they want them to see, but I think once you start to get into the 'Overgod tier' and higher, this happens automatically. Thus, another major difference between 'Gods' and Primordials. Because of their connection to mortals (through faith), the Gods become bound by Dogma. Maybe thats why most Primordials don't bother with religion or worshipers - its a two-way trap. A primordial can never be 'erased' (forgotten about) the way a God can.
I agree with this to some extent. It holds merit (I fully admit I am not familiar with any mentioned things Ed has drawn inspo from, so I can't really compare).
I remember that scene from Prince of Lies, in which each of the deities sees the others differently (Talos sees the others as storms, IIRC). Oghma sees them dressed in robes. Mortals can't know the true form of the gods, so the gods pick a form (avatar) mortals would understand. It reminds me of that old moive, Oh, God! in which God comes to Earth in the form of an old man, and says, "I picked a form you would understand."
So, if the gods are "balls of [sentient] energy", they are essentially beyond form, and exist simultaneously in multiple realities. Silvanus is Silvanus on Toril, but may be known as Grengo (random name) in universe X, or heck, even planet X, and the energy that exists as Silvnaus/Grengo is considered both with what is happening on Toril and in planet and/or universe X. If sh*t is going down in Toril that concerns Silvanus' followers, "he" is going to be concerned about it, but Grengo may not be, since "he" is focused on what is going on in world X.
I still like the idea of the deities being individual entities, but the above theory would also explain how the gods can exist in multiple worlds, and you can't truly kill a god unless you destroy all its followers. I think this has been discussed before, but when these "balls of energy" create different forms of itself, these forms take on personalities that make them an individual. It's almost like having multiple personalities, but on a much deeper level. Silvanus is Silvanus, with the portfolio and desire of Silvanus. But elsewhere, Silvanus is also Grengo, with perhaps a different personality, but maybe a similar portfolio. The ball of energy that consists of Silvanus, Grengo, and others, could be the universal "domain" of wild places, nature, etc. Since I personally don't like the idea of the deities on the same plane being aspects of each other, there are multiple balls of energy that share similar portfolios (thus Chauntea and Mielikki exist alongside Silvanus).
Ergo, while all these gods may extend from balls of sentient energy (like the arms of an octopus), they over time became true individuals, existing both as a god and as a facet/arm of a truly greater being.
Or, the multiverse really does contain many, many gods, and, while still beyond mortal perception (they still take form we can understand), Silvanus doesn't stem from a ball of energy. He is, and always has been Silvanus, but still exists in multiple worlds, and may or may not go by the name Silvanus. This could loop back to the theory I mentioned above. Silvanus is the ball of sentient energy, and extends different "facets" of his personality to various worlds. So, the various "Silvanus'" may or may be similar in personality.
When a mortal undergoes apotheosis and becomes a god (like Sheverash, or Cyric, who became a greater deity), they shed their mortal coil, and obtain the "greater awareness". Their "journey" is different from those who have always been gods (the ancients, so to speak). They don't start out as multispheric, and have to obtain that as their godhood, and understanding of said godhood, continues. Since they have shed their mortal coil, and thus mortal restrictions on perception, they are able to gain a greater understanding of the multiverse, and exist on a multi-planar level.
Perhaps part of this process is learning to extend their awareness to more than one world. Perhaps Sheverash only exists on Toril at this point, because his concern and portfolio is very much tied to Faerun at this point. He is a "single spheric" deity at this point, which is why he hasn't been able to move beyond demigod or lesser god status.
I'm just throwing stuff out and rambling at this point lol. Musing as I type.
[I used ball of energy as the "form" for the sake of consistency].
I do like this theory, and is the theory I used to explain the gods to my players in one opportunity, in fact. With other words, but the essence of the explanation was the same.
Also, is nothing noteworthy, but at some point Sheverash did become a multi-spheric god. Or at the very least, duo-spheric. He was one of the Seldarine gods acknowledged to exist in the Core 4e/Nerath world.
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
170,000 years ago: Moradin creates the first dwarves, based on the human template and his own ideas. Some of these dwarves stay free in Stoneroot on the First Work, but Moradin also grants many dwarves to the primordials. The primordials give the dwarves to the titans and giants of the world, who use them as slaves. Moradin does not notice their suffering until much later, during the Dawn War.
100,000 years ago: The Dawn War eventually comes, and Annam finds himself on the side of the gods rather than the primordials, his nature changed by the sky goddess. He desires to create something that lasts - an immortal dynasty - something no primordial is supposed to want.
Take into account that many of the material in World & Monsters and Classes & Races what just preliminary material, and was changed in actual 4e products.
For instance, Primal Power (a 4e sourcebook) have a different version of the slavery of dwarves. Moradin did not gave them to the primordials willingly, a primordial named Vezzuvu beat the shit out of Moradin and took the dwarves for herself, and later she gave them to the titans and giants. This potentially happened in the first days of the Dawn War.
(You can check Primal Power, page 126 for the whole story; Vezzuvu is one of the primordials acknowledged in Heroes of the Elemental Chaos).
Noteworthy enough, a 4e core article in Dragon 394 about Runepriests mentions a being named "First Creator Annam", who may have sired a primordial known as the Stone King. This would mean that this First Creator Annam may have been a primordial itself. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 03 Jul 2017 07:18:25 |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2017 : 08:07:47
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quote:
Originally posted by ZeromaruX
Take into account that many of the material in World & Monsters and Classes & Races what just preliminary material, and was changed in actual 4e products.
I did, I don't consider R&C or W&M primary sources either. The stuff I referenced up top is all also in the Monster Manual or an issue of Dragon Magazine.
quote:
For instance, Primal Power (a 4e sourcebook) have a different version of the slavery of dwarves. Moradin did not gave them to the primordials willingly, a primordial named Vezzuvu beat the shit out of Moradin and took the dwarves for herself, and later she gave them to the titans and giants. This potentially happened in the first days of the Dawn War.
(You can check Primal Power, page 126 for the whole story; Vezzuvu is one of the primordials acknowledged in Heroes of the Elemental Chaos).
I mentioned the Vezzuvu event back on page 7 of this thread in the big history write-up, and I actually consider the first instance of the dwarves ending up with the primordials and the Vezzuvu attack to be two separate events. I don't think these are contradicting stories, I think they're separate stories. Moradin crafts the dwarves, keeps some and hands some over to the primordials (who in turn hand them to the titans and giants who enslave them). Then later, during the Dawn War, Vezzuvu attacks the free dwarves of Stoneroot.
quote:
Noteworthy enough, a 4e core article in Dragon 394 about Runepriests mentions a being named "First Creator Annam", who may have sired a primordial known as the Stone King. This would mean that this First Creator Annam may have been a primordial itself.
Nice find! |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
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Misereor
Learned Scribe
164 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2017 : 11:32:41
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quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
I mentioned the Vezzuvu event back on page 7 of this thread in the big history write-up, and I actually consider the first instance of the dwarves ending up with the primordials and the Vezzuvu attack to be two separate events. I don't think these are contradicting stories, I think they're separate stories. Moradin crafts the dwarves, keeps some and hands some over to the primordials (who in turn hand them to the titans and giants who enslave them). Then later, during the Dawn War, Vezzuvu attacks the free dwarves of Stoneroot.
This is worth a thread of it's own.
I've especially wanted to see more of the story of Dwarven bondage under the Giants, as well as the relationship between the Dwarven and Giant gods. (Should be a separate thread though.)
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What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder, stronger, in a later edition. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2017 : 17:48:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I know Ed Greenwood is a fan of Michael moorcock's work (he used a lot of his gods in his original, pre-published FR article on 'The Gods' back in Dragon magazine). He is also a big fan of Roger Zelazny's Chronicles of Amber series. He 'borrowed' (or rather, was 'inspired by') stuff from many sources. A third 'biggie' would be the Chronicles of Narnia (and more specifically, the concept of 'The Wood Between the Worlds' - what Moorcock calls the Mittlemarch, and would be the Border Ethereal in D&D*). Thus, having read all the same material myself, I can get a 'feel' for how Ed pictures his world (and the greater D&Dverse).
One big concept Michael Moorcock puts forth is the multiverse (also used in the Amber novels), and 'the Gods'. In his various series, different gods have prominence, and some that appear in more than one world/setting behave and even look a bit differently in another. However, the god is still technically the same god - in one story I recall, Arioch recognizes and interacts with Elric, even though Elric is in a different, alternate setting. Elric recognizes the differences immediately, and even ponders on them a bit (the god itself seems to be unaware that it is different). To me, that a pretty major concept, and one I think Ed applies to the Realms (and perhaps other D&D designers have applied to the D&Dverse - and the Planescape cosmology - over the years). "The same, but different". Its where I get a lot of my musings on 'perception, faith, and reality', and how dogma (the 'known facts' of a setting) can influence all of those things. Dogma IS 'fact' within a setting. Thus, everything poured through that filter will verify the Dogma to be true. However, a different world may have a different dogma, with its own, different set of 'facts' (which CAN contradict the facts known elsewhere). Gods are part of the universe, and thus are affected by that dogma - what people expect to see, and how they expect a deity to behave, is how they look and behave. But the God isn't actually changing at all - only your 'awareness' of it is. Gods are actually just balls of energy, that your frail, mortal mind has to interpret. Some of this is even touched upon in the FR novel Prince of Lies - Mystra learns how to shift her own perception to that of another, and realizes even the gods see things differently from each other (they view everything through the 'filter' of their own awareness, preconceptions, portfolios, and desires). Basically, everyone is "living in their own private Idaho", gods and mortals alike.
So the bottom line is, that every setting might have a Shar and Selûne (and even a Mystra), but they would (likely) be called by other names in those places. And their behavior can be quite different, and they could have different portfolios as well. 'The same, but different". Its a pretty major concept of multiverses. The big difference between Gods and mortals is that every world might have its own, private version of Elric, or Conan, or Superman, and those ARE separate beings (maybe - Moorcock also had the concept of the 'Eternal Champion'), but THE GODS are the same being from worOne caveat: I think Primordials would be above all that - that they would not only be the same being no matter what, but their sheer power forces their own perception onto everything else, so basically, what you see is what you get. I think most Gods can do this when they focus on doing so - manipulate perception so that mortals see what they want them to see, but I think once you start to get into the 'Overgod tier' and higher, this happens automatically. Thus, another major difference between 'Gods' and Primordials. Because of their connection to mortals (through faith), the Gods become bound by Dogma. Maybe thats why most Primordials don't bother with religion or worshipers - its a two-way trap. A primordial can never be 'erased' (forgotten about) the way a God can.
I agree with this to some extent. It holds merit (I fully admit I am not familiar with any mentioned things Ed has drawn inspo from, so I can't really compare).
I remember that scene from Prince of Lies, in which each of the deities sees the others differently (Talos sees the others as storms, IIRC). Oghma sees them dressed in robes. Mortals can't know the true form of the gods, so the gods pick a form (avatar) mortals would understand. It reminds me of that old moive, Oh, God! in which God comes to Earth in the form of an old man, and says, "I picked a form you would understand."
So, if the gods are "balls of [sentient] energy", they are essentially beyond form, and exist simultaneously in multiple realities. Silvanus is Silvanus on Toril, but may be known as Grengo (random name) in universe X, or heck, even planet X, and the energy that exists as Silvnaus/Grengo is considered both with what is happening on Toril and in planet and/or universe X. If sh*t is going down in Toril that concerns Silvanus' followers, "he" is going to be concerned about it, but Grengo may not be, since "he" is focused on what is going on in world X.
I still like the idea of the deities being individual entities, but the above theory would also explain how the gods can exist in multiple worlds, and you can't truly kill a god unless you destroy all its followers. I think this has been discussed before, but when these "balls of energy" create different forms of itself, these forms take on personalities that make them an individual. It's almost like having multiple personalities, but on a much deeper level. Silvanus is Silvanus, with the portfolio and desire of Silvanus. But elsewhere, Silvanus is also Grengo, with perhaps a different personality, but maybe a similar portfolio. The ball of energy that consists of Silvanus, Grengo, and others, could be the universal "domain" of wild places, nature, etc. Since I personally don't like the idea of the deities on the same plane being aspects of each other, there are multiple balls of energy that share similar portfolios (thus Chauntea and Mielikki exist alongside Silvanus).
Ergo, while all these gods may extend from balls of sentient energy (like the arms of an octopus), they over time became true individuals, existing both as a god and as a facet/arm of a truly greater being.
Or, the multiverse really does contain many, many gods, and, while still beyond mortal perception (they still take form we can understand), Silvanus doesn't stem from a ball of energy. He is, and always has been Silvanus, but still exists in multiple worlds, and may or may not go by the name Silvanus. This could loop back to the theory I mentioned above. Silvanus is the ball of sentient energy, and extends different "facets" of his personality to various worlds. So, the various "Silvanus'" may or may be similar in personality.
When a mortal undergoes apotheosis and becomes a god (like Sheverash, or Cyric, who became a greater deity), they shed their mortal coil, and obtain the "greater awareness". Their "journey" is different from those who have always been gods (the ancients, so to speak). They don't start out as multispheric, and have to obtain that as their godhood, and understanding of said godhood, continues. Since they have shed their mortal coil, and thus mortal restrictions on perception, they are able to gain a greater understanding of the multiverse, and exist on a multi-planar level.
Perhaps part of this process is learning to extend their awareness to more than one world. Perhaps Sheverash only exists on Toril at this point, because his concern and portfolio is very much tied to Faerun at this point. He is a "single spheric" deity at this point, which is why he hasn't been able to move beyond demigod or lesser god status.
I'm just throwing stuff out and rambling at this point lol. Musing as I type.
[I used ball of energy as the "form" for the sake of consistency].
I do like this theory, and is the theory I used to explain the gods to my players in one opportunity, in fact. With other words, but the essence of the explanation was the same.
Also, is nothing noteworthy, but at some point Sheverash did become a multi-spheric god. Or at the very least, duo-spheric. He was one of the Seldarine gods acknowledged to exist in the Core 4e/Nerath world.
That's noteworthy to me . I didn't know that. I know he was around in 4e (if reduced to exarch), and is around in 5e, but I didn't know he had obtained more than one sphere. Although, now that I think about it, that makes sense. In the Sword Coast Adventure's Guide, he is described as the elven god of vengeance. Previously, he would have been described as vengeance against the drow, but now he is just vengeance. While I might be splitting hairs here, the change in the wording suggests that he has widened his influence, because he is vengeance in general. And, if I remember correctly, FR is now considered the "core" setting in 5e. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Cosmology Theories
