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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Jan 2018 : 22:29:33
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| I am not surprised other worlds have a Weave, and Mystra may or not be associated with them. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2018 : 01:08:34
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I think that the 'Weave' (Mythal) on most worlds are supposed to have a duel nature - the negative, and the positive. This 'two sides of magic' is a popular trope. On many of the worlds there is a single god (more often goddess for some reason) that represents this 'magical field', rather then spells, or the pure power of magic itself. And this god normally has a duel nature itself (like Shiva in Vedic traditions. or Wee Jas in GH). The represent BOTH the negative and the positive. However,something went wrong in Realmspace - the goddess of the Weave went crazy, and split into Selūne and Shar, who then worked against each other (really, its juts Shar working against Selūne all the time, and Mytra).
Thus, 'Mystra' was an attempt by Ao to fix this problem - he couldn't have Toril's Weave attacking itself. By taking Realmspace's Mythal away from the Sundered Goddess and attaching that power to a mortal (which was confirmed by Ed - Mystra/Mystryl is always 'pasted over' a mortal). Very few other worlds have it separated as we do, which is why Mystra is (or at least, should be) unique to us. Other worlds might have 'A' mystra, but not THE Mystra. For example, Hecate would be the mystra of a world ruled primarily by the Olympian pantheon. Basically, they are supposed to just be 'caretakers', but things have gotten weird in FR. Wee Jas is GH's mystra, for no other reason than their 'goddess of the weave' didn't get all bipolar. It also means our Weave is more fragile than others (NO KIDDING), because of the problem with the twin goddesses, the problem with the weave having been broken several times over, and the problem of it having a being that could conceivably 'die' in charge of it.
The good news is, that because of all the godly attention Toril gets (as I explained earlier in those other posts), Toril has more magic potential than nearly every other world. Look at it this way: The more Gods present = the stronger the magical network around the Sphere becomes, and the stronger the Network (Spheric Mythal/Weave), the higher order of magic available to mortals. Mortals on Toril used to be able to cast lev 10+ spells, but after Netheril fell, the powers that be (Mystra and Ao) decided it would be better to limit the level of power mortals had access to. Our network has the potential to be nearly unlimited, which means a LOT more uber-powerful mortals walking around (as we see in canon). Greyhawk's magic goes up to level 9 as well, but you don't see the super-Wizards there like we have. On many worlds, the maximum spell level is probably much lower, due to less divine activity. I would wager Earth's probably around lev. 3, at best (naturally, without drawing power from another source, as a visiting Chosen would). In fact, I think its RAW in settings with no gods - like RL and SJ (Phlogiston) - that the maximum spell level cap is 3. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Jan 2018 01:11:24 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2018 : 02:10:58
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Eberron, BTW, is also fairly unique (more like, a PitA).
There are no gods, yet it has 'high magic'... or does it? Not really... not when you think about it (and thank you to whoever that was that pointed that out to me recently). I think Eberron is actually supposed to be a low/no magic world, but because of all the stuff with the Dragons (the three 'biggies', not regular dragons), somehow Raw magical has become fairly accessible, to mortals with Dragonmarks. In fact, the Dragonmarks act like small, personalized mythals, like the torcs I discussed earlier. Raw magic gets filtered directly through the Dragonmarks, instead of a Weave. Its not nearly as powerful, but it enables people to use magic on an otherwise magic-dead (Godless) world. So Eberron would be just like Athas, if it didn't have the Dragonmarked Houses (and note that in THAT setting, mortals who do learn to use magic turn into dragons).
Dragons don't need a Weave - they can shape Raw magic. Thats why they're sorcerers, not Wizards. The do not need arcane formulae, which is all Weave-based. 'Benders' from the Avatar cartoon are elementalists who access Raw magic (dependent upon their bloodlines), so really, just another type of sorcerer. In fact, you can consider All 'Vancian' (Wizardly) magic in D&D Weave-based. The individual setting-Weaves are NOT connected - you can't create the necessary conduits through the phlogiston.
This means all Planeswalkers should be sorcerers, since there would be almost no 'adjustment period' for them. Raw magic is the same everywhere (in the Prime Material - it may not be present at all elsewhere). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2018 : 12:07:26
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The Weave is the password locked WiFi for Faerun. In other worlds, you get free WiFi or need a different password.
George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2018 : 16:31:22
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| I thought Eberron had gods. I looked into at one point. They are just more distant than those in FR. But I know next to nothing about it, so I could be wrong. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2018 : 17:00:14
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For me:
Crystal Spheres complicate everything.
I can only use the original cosmology found on page 120 of the AD&D Player's Handbook.
There is no plane of Concordant Opposition...and everything blends so smoothly in the Outer Planes as well.
There is no "Plane of Shadow" though there is a numerous number of Demi-Planes that float throughout the Multiverse.
For me...its just the way it should be.
Another, HUGE thing for me that this solves: Teleport Without Error can then be used to create Portals to other Worlds. To me this is critical for The Forgotten Realms because it allows the visitation of any place on the same Plane with no chance of error.
The vast Portal Network in the Forgotten Realms is too crucial for me to not have things this way. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2018 : 21:51:08
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I used to hate Crystal Spheres, mostly because I used to hate evrything about Spelljammer (which is where that originated).
However, after some excellent conversations (on the WotC boards) with Gray Richardson many years ago, we came up with the idea that all of that 'Spelljamming' was really taking place in the Ethereal (and we were only able to do this because they eliminated the ethereal as of 4e). The 'near Ethereal' becomes wildspace (which you are automatically transferred into when you leave the atmosphere in an SJ ship), and the Phlogiston become the Deep Ethereal. Since we normally only encounter the ethereal plane planetside, we are only used to how it looks from there (which is how it looks in canon D&D). However, everything changes once you enter 'space' using Spelljamming. Its a very simple, clever 'fix' that really makes everything else gel beautifully (because now we don't have the problem of galleons floating around in space alongside normal spacecraft - the two do not travel in the same mediums).
Thus, if you were to leave a planet in a mundane manner (giant catapult?  ), you wouldn't be in Arcane Space (and YES, its even called that... IN CANON! Never 'outer space', which is obviously a very different thing). You'd be in normal space, and you'd be dead in under 10 seconds. So, for most things, you can just ignore the Crystal spheres and think of all these worlds in the regular way. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Jan 2018 21:51:56 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2018 : 21:54:07
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I thought Eberron had gods. I looked into at one point. They are just more distant than those in FR. But I know next to nothing about it, so I could be wrong.
Not so much 'gods' as they are concepts, and no-one is really sure if they are even real, because they do not respond or interact with worshipers in any discernible way. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2018 : 03:23:06
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| After finally having reading "A Temporal Chronology of the Primes" (its a big document!), I want to update that stuff, with the current "discoveries" of the worlds of Abeir-Toril (4e/5e advancements to the timeline), as well as adding the stuff from Nerath and Eberron, just for completeness sake. Is there a way to contact BRJ to ask for permission to modify his work? (as I doubt he has the time to dedicate to such task again...) |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 16 Jan 2018 03:23:55 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2018 : 03:29:25
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| PM him here - he usually responds, eventually. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2018 : 20:54:28
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Okay, in order to marry some of my newer ideas together with some of my older ones, I have this:
THE 'Primal Spirit'. The very first one, actually. In my previous homebrew folklore I had it where The Ymir (the consciouness of the prime Material Plane itself) was killed, and its 'body' rent asunder (the destruction of the First World and the creation of the Multiverse). This would have occurred at the culmination of the Dawn War (both sides taken aback by the death of a supernal - something that is truly a 'piece of GOD', and something that should NOT be able to 'end'). Then its 'sister', the Supernal Gaea (the embodiment of life/mana) merged with the dying Ymir, in order to keep the physical beings of the universe alive ('lesser' races were put into a type of stasis, until the new worlds within the Crystal Spheres could be built). This would have included the Creatori (Creator races), as well as the progenitors (groups like the dwarves, giants, and dragons). Many other groups were also spared in this manner. This is all 'old news' (recap) as far as my homebrew cosmology goes.
So here's the new layer: When Ymir died*, it was the first 'death' (of a cosmic being... before that, lesser beings could be 'turned off', like a light switch, and then just be turned back on as needed - think of those early races almost like holograms on a ST holodek - they existed only when needed... at least, at first). Or NPCs in a video game, if you prefer (but a video game that is a simulation, that is left running all the time). After that, death had meaning (and is probably when Chronepsis first became Chronos - he went from 'Order', to 'things happening in an orderly fashion'; in other words, TIME). There was a 'beginning', and an 'end' to all things. From that concept was born two new beings - entropy; the 'end of everything' (and from that, 'death') , and 'Life' (Mana became 'life', or, our current concept of what that is). These were born from the 'end' of Ymir and Gaea - his death, and her life - now two faces of a single coin. Both of those 'originals' are beyond reach now (even beyond the reach of other Supernals, as far as we know).
Alpha & Omega. Beginnings and endings. Ao & Io, perhaps? The primal spirit of life itself has many names: Ubtao in The Forgotten realms, and Ouralon in Eberron. other worlds have other names... MANY other names. It is the 'spirit of the jungle' itself, or so the savage tribes say. But the Primal spirit has a 'brother' - its 'dark half'. The Shadow (Eshadow). The Umbra. As Unconstrained life (Mana from the Gaea) gave birth to the Darwinian concept of Evolution (the 'thirst' of life to continue, unrestrained), the Shadow represents the destruction that must go with such unconstrained growth - it is the 'emptiness' - the Entropy left behind from Ymir's Death. These are the two faces of having a physical existence - the yearning to grow and become something more, and the knowledge that in the end, all things must crumble to dust.
You can almost think of them as 'echoes' of the now 'lost' Ymir & Gaea.
And on a side-note, while doing some drow research (and NOT finding what I needed - the reference to where the word 'Drow' actually comes from... you would have thought the Wiki would have had it), I came across something VERY interesting; the Drow word for 'THE Goddess' (meaning Lolth - there is a slightly different term when its used to describe other goddesses) is Quarval-Sharess. Interesting, no? Considering the canon heresy that Lolth and Shar are one and the same, and Shar was involved in the creation of Sharess (she's like one-half of a conjoined goddess). I wonder if Ed had meant for Lolth to be the 'daughter' of Shar? (Dark elves being the children of Darkness would make a LOT of sense). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 16 Jan 2018 20:55:20 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2018 : 21:29:58
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And to elaborate further, I think that Annam was the 'first born' of Ymir, so that makes Annam the 'grandpappy' of giants, which also makes perfect sense within the Norse mythos, because Annam = Wotan (just another aspect of the same being). Ptah (Ymir's 'brother' Supernal) created Moradin, to assist the giants in their toils. Thus, Ptah becomes the dwarven 'High God' (who is unnamed in 2e's Complete Dwarves), and Moradin and Annam are 'cousins', and both considered the 'All Father' of the Jotunbrud (giantish races, which included the dwarves at that time). This would all change over time. The dwarves themselves (at first) were literally 'born of the flesh of Ymir' (just as it is in the Norse myths) - they were created by Moradin from the stone to be subordinates to the other giants. All of this would go very wrong eventually (and those first dwarves could change size - they were more like firbolgs - they were literally 'dwarfs' compared to the other giants).
During the Godswar the Norns - once handmaidens of Araushnee - were blinded and cursed. When Annam came to them seeking wisdom, he traded them his one eye for it (so this is where the Norse get their version of the all father - he is a later version). The Norns then became the Graeae, who share the Godseye between them. Meanwhile, Sehanine Moonbow (known as Selūne in the Realms) gave her own handmaidens the task of destiny - the Moirai. However, The Princess of Darkness (Lolth) had many handmaidens - those were only her favorite and most powerful. The 'lesser norns' continue to serve the Moirai, delivering destinies to mortal newborns as needed.
While some scholars have speculated on a connection between Wotan and Gruumsh (because of the missing eyes), the truth is, Annam willingly forfeited his eye for wisdom (the ability to 'read' destinies), whereas Gruumsh lost his eye due to a lack of wisdom. Also, some believe that the eye wasn't just destroyed, it was 'put out', so that Gruumsh's eye may yet exist in some form. The theory goes that this may be how the Elder evil Eye came about, but the most knowledgeable Sages of Sigil scoff at such notions - the Elder Eye is far more ancient then Gruumsh, or most other beings, for that matter.
EDIT:
In the Olympian mythos, Annam would be Kronos, who is NOT related to Chronos, who I believe is a later (non-reptilian) aspect of Chronepsis). Gods - even Overgods (Ordials) - 'evolve' over time. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 16 Jan 2018 21:35:16 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2018 : 22:31:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And on a side-note, while doing some drow research (and NOT finding what I needed - the reference to where the word 'Drow' actually comes from... you would have thought the Wiki would have had it),
The word "drow" comes from the Elvish word dhaeraow, which means traitor, and can also mean face of shadow or heart of night (loosely tying in with what you just mentioned about Lolth and Shar). |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 16 Jan 2018 22:31:39 |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2018 : 10:20:07
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| What I don't understand is why would you be so careless as to put the weave into basically one being, and do it over and over. You are putting magic in too much of a risk. In my FR, there is a council of gods and goddesses who govern over magic. This ensures that magic can't be disrupted being killing a single being. |
Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2018 : 11:50:18
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I'd attribute it to bad design on the part of people that didn't understand Ed's original idea.
The weave as it currently stands should depend only upon the existence of the nether scrolls. It should be totally independent of any deific control.
However when Mystryl "perished" the weave was disrupted for a time which suggests there is a connection although it need not be interpreted as total control over the weave.
The nether scrolls were created and expanded upon by each of the creator races. From George's work the nether scrolls are actually the containers for sentient beings who control the weave. Ed's Guide to FR mentioned Avrauntra who was the most powerful magic user during the early eras of Netheril and she vanished - merged with the weave. The presence of mythal ghosts and weave ghosts shows that you can indeed merge with the weave which is probably how the nether scrolls were created in the first place.
Avrauntra was the first to discover how to do so independent of the nether scrolls. She didn't become an anchor (like the scrolls) she merged with the weave itself and because of her power I believe she became the most dominant personality in the weave. I also think Avrauntra was the inspiration for the Grey Lady (from Volo's Guide to All Things Magical) and the inspiration for Mystryl as she continued to appear to guide the Netherese long after she merged with the weave.
So when Karsus chose Mystryl as his target for his spell. He actually chose Avrauntra as the target who was part of the weave. So Karsus literally drained the power of the weave into himself and caused the disruption directly.
At the same time one of the Netherese was creating an Improved Mythallar which just happened to be the method of creating a Nether Scroll/weave anchor. The spell went wrong as the weave was drained and it latched onto the archwizard as its anchor. The destruction of the enclave killed this anchor but like other nether scrolls it was recreated over the next few years and viola Myrjala Darkeyes was born.
Myth and Legend around the collapse of the weave concocted a tale about Mystryl being reincarnated as Mystra and so a cult/church of mystra began. Myrjala Darkeyes continued to wander around as the latest weave anchor and most dominant sentience in the weave (she also happened to be distantly related to Avrauntra).
The Time of Troubles was actually brought about when that idiotic Pasha of Manshaka (the one who disappeared suddenly) tried to cast the same spell Karsus did on Myrjala Darkeyes and drained the weave again (despite his first few attempts at the ritual failing). Poof the weave anchor that was Myrjala was reincarnated into Ariel Manx (also distantly related to Avrauntra).
The nonsense about the gods walking the earth was just hysteria spread about by cloak societies on behalf of other secret societies who were trying a new means to damage their rivals (Church of Bane and Zhentarim trying to weaken the Church of Mystra. Church of Mystra and the Harpers trying to weaken the Church of Bane). Everyone joined in the continent wide hysteria. People printed pamphlets to fabricate stories. Unscrupulous mages used the chaos to their own advantage (changing themselves into huge lion headed people or summoning undead in waterdeep) while claiming to be avatars of the gods.
Or at least that's how I'm spinning it. The non-entities that are the gods have no direct control over anything on the material plane. They can only influence things through confusing visions and summoned agents. Its all lies and more lies with the gods. The weave is a material plane construct created by the spellweavers/sarrukh/batrachi/fey and it is controlled by anchors on the material plane. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2018 : 12:50:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And on a side-note, while doing some drow research (and NOT finding what I needed - the reference to where the word 'Drow' actually comes from... you would have thought the Wiki would have had it), I came across something VERY interesting; the Drow word for 'THE Goddess' (meaning Lolth - there is a slightly different term when its used to describe other goddesses) is Quarval-Sharess. Interesting, no? Considering the canon heresy that Lolth and Shar are one and the same, and Shar was involved in the creation of Sharess (she's like one-half of a conjoined goddess). I wonder if Ed had meant for Lolth to be the 'daughter' of Shar? (Dark elves being the children of Darkness would make a LOT of sense).
Where's this heresy mentioned? AFAIK, it was just a speculation on this forum that started floating around when WotC decided to have a storyline stem from a pun (Lolth is a spider, so she must also know how "to Weave" magic), and then let that story basically die. Ed also clarified that Lolth didn't even remotely have the skill or insight to sustain a Weave, so her plan was doomed to fail from the beginning, while that clearly wasn't the case for Shar.
In any case, even if Lolth had been created by Shar, the dark elves wouldn't be children of darkness. They'd still be Corellon's creation, and even their current apperance would be due to him. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 17 Jan 2018 12:56:09 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11831 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2018 : 17:03:45
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I thought Eberron had gods. I looked into at one point. They are just more distant than those in FR. But I know next to nothing about it, so I could be wrong.
Way more different, as in you don't necessarily have to follow their ethos... can be of a totally different alignment, etc... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2018 : 19:51:01
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I am fairly certain that 'heresy' concerning Shar and Lolth was canon. I had thought it homebrew myself, a long time ago, but then someone pointed me to the article where it was mentioned (it was likely in one of the MANY 3e online articles of that time). Just so we are ALL on the same page here - the heresy is canon (AFAIK), but the reasoning behind the heresy IS NOT. There is zero canon pointing to any relationship between Shar and Lolth, and the heresy is supposed to be some sort of cult of misguided mortals. What you do with that in YOUR games is up to you.
However, I am finding some circumstantial evidence that Angharradh was an actual deity FIRST, that split into aspects (because thanks to the 4e lore, I am finding older references to HER, then her component parts). This means its entirely possible that Corellon's consort (and several are named simultaneously, so either he was a 'player', or they were all the same being, really) split at some point. Araushnee may have just been one specific aspect of the archtype, that got 'kicked out'. Now, we know the QoA&D 'went nuts', and we are seeing that she may also be 'of two minds' in recent lore. We also have a great deal of evidence that Shar and Selūne are in fact one god, that split into two (much as Tyche split into Tymora and Beshaba). Thus, we keep seeing this same story play-out in the elven/fey pantheons and in ancient FR lore - one goddess spliting into 'good & evil' (Light & Darkness). My current thoughts on the matter are starting to run similar to my thoughts on Bane - that we (in FR) have just been using an archtype name, whereas the particular deity could have many other names in other spheres, and should be nearly universal. 'Lolth' may just be a GH-specific aspect of the same archtype Shar belongs to. Lolth arrived in FR rather late, compared to most others, which is weird... unless she was already there in some other form.
As for 'groups of gods' in charge of the weave: I think its more like groups are in charge of handling aspects of it, just as the Chosen are responsible for 'routine maintenance'. But there has to be someone 'at the top' - a boss-figure. Really, the AI of the Weave itself. At one time I think this was supposed to be a dual-aspected god(dess), along the lines of Wee-Jas (neither good nor evil), to represent two sides of arcane magic (positive & negative, Preservers and defilers, creative & destructive, 'white & black' magic, 'Saidar & Saidan' {WoT}, etc, etc.), but something happened and the goddess 'broke'. In FR, we know of this event as the War of Light & Darkness. I think his had major ramifucations to the multiverse as a whole, but the split did not occur everywhere (however, it could be like a virus, and the 'Shar' aspect is trying to spread to as many spheres as possible, like a virus, disrupting the conjoined goddess into two). If we go back to my computer analogies, its like each Crystal Sphere is setup as a 'server', with its own local network and software, and bad things can happen to just one server, but the identical software on another server would still be fine (unless infected by the 'bad' server). We can almost think of Shar an analogous to Agent Smith in The Matrix - she is a glitch in the matrix. A 'rogue agent' that can infect - and crash - everything else. In a perfect world, the two sides of arcane (Weave) magic are in balance; ideal harmony. Just enough creation and destruction to keep life evolving.
So saying Mystryl/Mystra is 'all powerful' is not quite correct. Thats like saying the server software is 'all powerful', when in fact, its "just doing its job", and its the stuff being inputted into it that can make things go horribly wrong.
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
The word "drow" comes from the Elvish word dhaeraow, which means traitor, and can also mean face of shadow or heart of night (loosely tying in with what you just mentioned about Lolth and Shar).
Yes, I knew all that. I was looking for the source of that information. Thank you, though. I used it in my Elves of Faerūn articles on the drow, but unfortunately, no longer have any of the notes that went with that. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Jan 2018 19:55:49 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2018 : 20:56:29
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| I found it in Demihuman Deities, but I don't know if that is what you mean. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2018 : 23:09:57
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I found it in Demihuman Deities, but I don't know if that is what you mean.
Hmph... I would have never thought to look there.
Thank You.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2018 : 23:40:29
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| LOL no problem. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2018 : 08:58:30
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So I am thinking now that dragons must have 'sided' with the Primordials during the Dawn War. I'm not sure how to fit everything together with the dragons - isn't there some lore that dragons arrived en masse when 'eggs' rained down upon Toril?
Primordials create the Elder Giants Jotuns, and from them are created dwarves, and from them are created dragons. The elves are obviously involved in some way with the dragons -the Fey sent them to Toril to do something about them (but then they would up the dragon's slaves, so none of that really makes sense... unless the dragons turned out to be a LOT tougher than the elves had anticipated). Now why would the Fey have so grossly underestimated their foe? Something mst have changed. I'll just stick that aside for now...
Giants control the feywild (thats 4e canon - the Fomorians), and the fey show up and suddenly THEY control the Feywild. Hence, a war, a'la the old Irish/Celtic myths (I don't make this stuff up {much} - I just weave it all together). The only solid date we have is that the fey ruled "the otherworldy Realm of Faerie" in -34K DR, just 3000 years before the Sundering 1.0. This means they were no longer on Abeir-Toril (or were never on Toril) when the other Creator races got creamed. I do have an out though - the designers specifically said 'Faerie', not The Feywild, and as I've stated elsewhere, I think that was a demiplane created by the Fey when they left Ladinion. It would not have merged with The Feywild until after the Dawn War, or perhaps during the Godswar (that might make more sense). Its possible the Seldarine moved it for some reason. That gives me a 3K window for moving it, and I could possibly even say that the Dawn War also ended around -34,000 DR, but it would probably be safer to go all the way back to -35K DR because thats when the GHotR timeline begins. So that should give us approximately 3-4K years between the wars, which makes sense in that the Gods are immortal and that time would mean very little to them. That is, if we go with the assumption that the Great cataclysm (the 'tearfall' of the Ice Moon Zotha) was also the final moments of the [i]War of Light & Darkness, which itself may have been the very last battle in the Godswar.
But between all that, somehow the fey get created, then the Elves get created from the fey, the Fey invade the Feywild and take it over (for the most part), and I 'think' the fey made some sort of deal with dragons to free the dragons from giant control. 4e lore says the dragons were enslaved by the giants at some point (and this would have had to have been pre-FR history, so 'the Time Before Time'), and then the FR lore says that the fey felt guilty about something because the sent the elves to 'handle' the dragons. Now, it doesn't actually say they felt guilty, but why are they sending their own children to their deaths to fight something that isn't even encroaching on the plane they live on? For some reason they felt taking care of the dragons was THEIR problem - I don't think that can be interpreted any other way. So if the dragons were slaves to the giants, and then later the dragons are free to run amok, and the elves are feeling guilty and trying to stop them, the only conclusion I can draw is that it was the elves that managed to free them in the first place. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 31 Jan 2018 08:59:48 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2018 : 09:00:10
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I'm just trying to explain my decisions for some of the lore-choices I've made in the mythology I started creating in the Maztica thread, but I don't want to clog that thread up any more than it already is. I don't create things willy-nilly; I need clear paths of logic to follow.
I tried to bring the Orbs of Dragonkind into it, and I will probably stick with that, but maybe now I'll say they were created by the Giants and the Elves stole them (they do stuff like that). For some reason, at a later time, we see that elves and metallic dragons are fiends and elves can exert some measure of control over them (not so much 'domination', as it is some sort of ancient pact the dragons are keeping). Perhaps the elves only meant o free the metallics, and released all of them instead? Sounds like one of their screw-ups.
But we also have the rather interesting bit about Gith going to hell, striking some sort of deal with Tiamat, and instead of returning to his people, some female lich (that no-one has ever seen before) takes his place, and returns with the ability to control dragons, which she gifts to 'her' people. So either Gith was a female and no-one knew it (like Joan of arc I guess), and something turned him/her into a lich (unlikely), or there was some sort of 'switcheroo' that took place (highly likely, especially given that we do know Gith went in, and a female lich came out... of Hell). And up until that time Tiamat was apparently trapped in hell (and we also don't why that would be either). So we got elves with the ability to exrt some control over dragons, and we have Gith able to do the same thing, although it seems that the gith can only do it with Chromatics (like Tiamat), and specifically Red dragons. So two different ancient people (if the proto-Gith weren't the original human creator race, they were definitely a very close offshoot of it), with the ability to exert some sort of control (even if it was through negotiation) over the two main branches of dragon kind.
Almost makes me want to give other draconic subgroups to the other Creatori. Gem might work for the Batrachi, and maybe feathered dragons for the Aearee, but what about the Sarrukh? All dragon types seem apt for them. Actually, I just checked Wikipedia - 'feathered' isn't a major group, but 'Lung' is - that might be close enough (Asian Dragons literally lived in the sky). That only lives Ferrous dragons for the Sarrukh, and I suppose that is okay... if I wanted to even do this (because there really isn't any good reason for it, other than what I just said above about the other two).
I think I may be trying too hard to incorporate the Norse myths regarding dwarves turning into dragons into the main body of the lore. I will probably drop that line of reasoning and just have the dragons created by Io. Hmmmm... maybe Ptah IS Io? Not sure; have to think more on that. I already have Ptah helping with the dwarves. That could actually be the connection I need right there (between dragons and dwarves). Regardless, I am still going to make gold the catalyst - maybe gold that was already part of a dragon's horde? They fall asleep on that, think 'draconic' (greedy, etc) thoughts, and presto - they tap into some ancient magic that rewrites their god-created DNA into a different creature that god created? It a stretch.
I don't really want to portray the dragons as victims (even though they are, to some extent - they were still slaves). Or rather, portray the dwarves as victims that got turned into dragons. The dwarves could have also been slaves (which wasn't meant to happen - none of it was - but the Giants became tainted with evil at some point), but I don't want to let it get any more grisly and/or absurd than that. It also allows me to pain the fey in a better light (neutral, rather than evil, killing the giants and taking their stuff). Yeah, I think I'm formulating a better story now. Time to go to bed and dream on it. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 31 Jan 2018 09:00:34 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2018 : 20:53:42
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In the past few days I've been tweaking my Overcosmology, which I am always doing, but I made at least one major change, so here goes.
First, the Consciousness of the universe formed, driving Xaos (Chaos) from its waking awareness. Then it immediately splits into the Divine Masculine (what 'IS'), and the Divine Feminine (what 'could be'). I then had it where they created the 11 Supernals, each for one dimension.
But this is where I've modified it...
There were 12 Supernals, thus, twelve dimensions. They were in 'pairs', corresponding to the Divine 'gender' that created them (six of each). I picture the 'Divine Masculine' having created the Priordials (the embodiments of matter & energy), and the 'Divine Feminine' (the embodiments of concepts) having created the Estelar. However, some overlap probably occurred, since these are really just two sides of the same being (Eternity and Infinity in marvel Comics terminology). Then 'the Ymir' (the 'firmament', or The Material) is mortally wounded, and begins to fall apart. Aeon (this is NEW) is his feminine counterpart, and Aeon ('Life') merges with Ymir, and it creates a composite Supernal know as Gaea (both 'Life' and 'World'). She/it did this in order to salvage the prime material, and the lesser creatures that dwelt upon (and in) it. Because of its quasi-alive status, it is mostly dormant (comatose), but aspects became part of the shattered Prime Material (what coalesced into the crystal Spheres, over the next 3000 years). There are both male and female aspects within each crystal Sphere, and even sometimes a composite aspect as well (think of it like the spirit got shattered along with the body). In most places, this 'echo' of Gaea is called Earthmother, but it has many, many names (and has a tendency to further fragment).
This also caused the Planes of Negative Energy (death) and Positive Energy (Life) to come into existence, alongside the new version of the Material Plane - they represent the new duel-nature of the Material Planes (the essence of dead Ymir = the Negative, and the essence of Aeon/Gaea = the Positive). Also, before this all happened, there really was no concept of 'life', because there was no concept of death, so Aeon was really 'Mana' - the dimension of ultimate potentiality. It wasn't until after she merged with the Ymir and became a dual-aspected being did 'Life = Mana', which is how it stands today (and physicality = 'death', because all things with a physical nature must come to an end, or basically, Entropy. In some mythologies, Gaea is pictures as a 'Divine Cow' (or Goat) who nurtures the Ymir and causes the world(s) to come into existence, which represents her joining with the dying earth.
And when Ymir was killed, the Shard of Pure Evil was used to pierce his flesh (the Lattice of Heaven), and the shard was also shattered, and scattered. Many pieces wound-up inside the forming Crystal Spheres, where they would later cause even more harm. Many of the greatest world-shaking and tragic events in various settings could be attributed to appearances by shards of evil. Thus, the Greygem of Dragonlance was actually a piece of Pure Evil that Reorx applied 'light' (positive energies) to in order to create a 'neutral' artifact that could embrace both halves of magic (the negative & the positive). It obviously didn't go so well (because the shard was not of this universe, and could not be so easily thwarted). We have multiple examples of Black/Umbral/Shadow Stones/gems/shards in FR lore (The Realms seems to have bore the brunt of it).
So that's the major change in my Cosmology - where there were 12 dimensions, there are now only 11. Ahura Mazda (proto-Jazirian) and Angra-Mayu (Ahriman) were two others that were forced to combine (in order to create the Great Wheel, a vast artifact-machine that in-part is designed to collect and keep the life-energies flowing through the Prime Material), but they remain separate beings (because neither has died). They have fused together their physical manifestations for the greater good, but they remain distinct from one another. All of the Supernals changed after the death of Ymir - some withdrew, some became more active, and they're 'portfolios' shifted ever so slightly (for example, Chronepsis who represented 'Order', became Time, and more widely known as Chronos afterward). The effect of having Entropy (the dead Ymir) in the world effected them all, and changed the way they viewed things. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 16 Feb 2018 20:57:45 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2018 : 18:32:21
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So, while researching Vecna, I came across an actual name for 'The Serpent' -
quote:
Mok'slyk is an old Flan name for an entity known as the Serpent, an entity of godlike power believed to be the personification of arcane magic. The Serpent is said to be a member of a group of unfathomably old entities known as the Ancient Brethren, which, though similar to gods, are not exactly gods, though some beings honor them as such. The Lady of Pain, Asmodeus, and Jazirian are also sometimes said to belong, or to have once belonged, to this group, and supposedly Vecna is a descendant of the Ancient Brethren. There may also be a connection between the Ancient Brethren and the draedens and baernoloths born before the multiverse began.
More important than Mok'slyk himself is the other info here - the 'Ancient Brethren'. Pretty neat, huh? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Apr 2018 18:32:39 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2018 : 21:27:27
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So, since I am currently over in the Old Empires (and Unther in particular), I am finding myself drawn toward the Sumerian and Babylonian pantheons. Whereas Gygax & Co. were smart enough to know that the Roman and Greek pantheons were one and the same, it seems the same wasn't said for these other two. In my recent 'internet travels' I see RipVanWormer (I am sure many of you are familiar with his body of work... he used to be a regular around here) is of the same mind as me - he felt that Planescape really dropped the ball here, by leaving them as the 1e DD manual had them - separate. And yet, after just reading that section in On Hallowed Ground, I see that book even claims they were one and the same at some point. Now, they get a little into the whole 'gods splitting and becoming other gods' thing (a fairly new concept back then), and even falsely claim this was 'the only time this has occurred' (it seems the PS 'Sages' are more clueless on this one point than Primes). Thus, its fairly easy for me to reconcile all of this within my own framework and say both sets of gods are just different aspects of even more ancient Archtypes (although the Sumerian would be much closer to the Archtype/Estelar). OHG states that whereas the Babylonian pantheon started to focus on civics (culture-building) and mortals themselves, their Sumerian counterparts continued to focus more on the natural world and the universe. They allowed this 'split' to continue among their aspects, until they had grown so far apart reabsorbing them was no longer an option (one can only assume here the Sumerians thought those avatars had become 'polluted').
The weird part is that it (OHG) states that the two pantheons are now mortal enemies, which makes little sense within our own, Forgotten Realms lore. Unless, of course, all those 'deicides' weren't reallyall done by the Orcish pantheon. 
My thoughts here is that the two factions may have decided to use the Orcgate wars as a cover to settle some old scores.
Also, since On Hallowed Ground was written after our FR Old Empires lore came out, that may have (unfortunately) tipped the decision to keep BOTH pantheons within the greater Planescape lore (so rather than fix an old mistake and ignore/overwrite what OE said, they continued to let it snowball). But as I said, its fairly easy to reconcile it all with my ideas about aspects (as 'Ubertars'). The Spellplague (and whatever 'cosmic MacGuffin' was going on at the same time - the Abyssal Plague? The Empyrean Odyssey?) would be a most excellent opportunity to right this old wrong - they should just say the two pantheons finally remerged (the stronger gods fought & absorbed the weaker).
Which brings me to Ki - a goddess whom I've always liked, ever since the 1e Deities & Demigods tome came out (which was the very first D&D book I ever bought, BTW). I've always felt Mielikki and her should be the same, because their portfolios greatly overlap... not to mention one's name is completely contained within the other. OHG even states the two are close friends. But as I read the entry for Ki in OHG, It says she is trying to acquire the portfolios of the dead Enki - river & water. That makes her sound much more like FR's Eldath! And Eldath and Mielikki are also very close. So now my thoughts are that Ki is a very ancient, primal power, probably associated with the 'Elemental Sea' (primordial soup) before the Gods even had a 'world' top play with. She would be a young-seeming aspect of the Earthgoddess (Mother Nature), and her connection with Mielikki could be not unlike that between Gaea & Demeter (or even Demeter and her daughter Persephone - another name for her is 'Kore'!)
So perhaps 'Mileikki' translates in some lost language as 'step-daughter of Ki', or some-such, and Mielikki was an exarch (Chosen) of Ki who 'made good'. Any thoughts on this scenario?
It actually works better God-wise to say the opposite - that Mielikki came first, because of her broader portfolio, but if we spin it that the 'rivers & seas' are something she is now taking on, bringing her back around to be more like her original, primal portfolio (goddess of the 'primal soup'), she could just be an older power who was eclipsed by her own Exarch, and is now trying to 'rise again' by making herself more relevant to the modern era. We see something very similar going on with Mystra and Selūne - its almost as if the roles have become reversed from what they used to be (as Selūne was eclipsed by Mystra).
And interestingly enough, Enki was killed by Nergal (who I still think should have a connection to Jergal!) and another god named Anshar, the 'god of darkness'. Sounds like it might be a male aspect of Shar, no? There could be a VERY intriguing story woven in there. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 09 Apr 2018 21:35:02 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11831 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2018 : 13:32:42
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If you want to pursue this idea that Mielikki and Eldath are "related" to Ki, a good basis for that could be that both Mielikki and Eldath up until the ToT were both gods bound to the Prime Material in 1st edition (up until the ToT, which allowed the Mulan gods to leave Toril as well). Along these same lines Siamorphe "goddess of the divine right to rule" was also Toril bound.
On the idea that it wasn't just the orcish pantheon that killed the Untheric gods, IF there is a link between Kiaransalee, Ereshkigal, and the Raven Queen ... then perhaps Kiaransalee/Ereshkigal killed her "husband" Nergal up near Dun-Tharos/Narathmault (aka Bheuristahl the Hag City in my homebrew). In fact, what if Nergal was attempting to access Narathmault and free the demons bound there to help the Untheric cause against the orcs. Just to add a little more to this concept, what if there are still hags deep in Dun-Tharos /Narathmault / Bheuristahl and these "hags" worship Kiaransalee / Ereshkigal (there is a definitely link between Kiaransalee and hag like dark elves). Maybe this is WHY Nergal and his family was entombed up there. This may be an act that this goddess continually repeats (Kiaransalee killing her husband, the Raven Queen killing her husband, and Ereshkigal killing her husband). Revenge seems to be important to all these entities. Also given that one of Kiaransalee's main holdings is the acropolis of Thanatos in the Galenas (which is very nearby Narfell and Dun-Tharos/Narathmault) AND Orcus' attention on Dun-Tharos near immediately following the death of Nergal..... I would half wonder if there isn't some connection between Orcus and Nergal (the god, not the devil).... not necessarily in the "they're the same being" way, but more in the Nergal's dead and Orcus is seeking and/or using his "corpse" or "essence" to "act" like a god. In this concept, Kiaransalee/Ereshkigal predates the Imaskari godswall, so while Nergal had to come over on a boat and listen to Enlil, Ereshkigal wasn't so bound to Enlil's will. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 10 Apr 2018 13:41:45 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2018 : 09:27:54
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Both Nergal and Orcus have fiend/god status, and i believe RW they are from the same 'pantheon' (or rather, originated in the same cultural region).
So I am going back to the 'divine spark' thing and fiends. For some reason mortals (beings native to the Prime material) CAN ascend and become gods. This tells me that we all have 'a little bit of god in us' (and if Zeus has his way, perhaps literally LOL). That part I relate back to my own theories about the original universe/world getting 'shattered', and all that cosmic 'soul stuff' (from the dead Supernal Ymir) was still attached to the prime Material, so every being born of it has some of that Uber-Overgod in them (an infintesimal amount, but even having such a tiny bit of 'omnipotence' is basically having the potential for omnipotence). But fiends were created, and more importantly, are part of the 'cosmic structure' of the Outer Planes - they don't have access to a 'divine spark' unless they steal one somehow. like how Asmodeus made Azuth his footstool in 4e.
So what if Nergal was an archfiend, and he lured the god Enki into the Abyss to kill him (and take his stuff), and got a bunch of his tanarri buddies to help (that parts canon, except it assumes Nergal was already a deity then). He also got help from a 'shadowy' god named Anshar. But before he was able to absorb Enki's divine essence, some underhanded Spellweaver (named Jack ) steal it right out from under him (using that that super-cool pyramid array of his). So then he and his shadowy buddy have to find another god-entity to kill, and they decide on Shamash (an ancient sun god... so this could just be another name for the 'first sun' we see in several D&D creation myths). Nergal is a 'god' of the Underworld, but he is also identified with the noonday sun (apparently the Mesopotamians had this concept f the sun-portfolio being split) and Shamash. Now here' the fun part - a shadowy god with 'shar' in its name helps him destroy the first sun... like how shar destroyed the first sun in FR (so once again, we see an 'echo' of a proto-myth going on). It also work well within the context of the dragon myths, because these would be truly ancient beings - 'draconic' entities of primal rage and might. Also,in the FR WoL&D creation myth, the only other beings that were said to be around were the Shadvari - perhaps that is an ancient term for 'shadow fiends', and Nergal was the king of those? (it does fit that entity well). Of course, I think the Shadvari were just shadow-touched Slaad (who in turn were the descendants of Batrachi), so would that make Nergal the original 'Slaad Overlord'? He doesn't seem very amphibian, though - he's more 'shadowy' than anything (despite his odd connection to the sun). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2018 : 18:08:44
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| Orcus is Roman, Nergal is Mesopotamian. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2018 : 22:22:10
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They all derived from the same proto-cultures, which is how I look at things (since many of these RW cultures were kidnapped before those Earth-empires even arose).
In D&D, devils are just tainted celestials, and demons are just corrupted elementals, so 'back in the day' before all the battle-lines were drawn up, I can see Orcus and Nergal getting together to play cards on Tuesday nights.
There are TWO Nergals in FR canon - I really wish they hadn't separated them like that. RW, one just became the other. Orcus went a similar route (later 'demonized' by other cultures).
Hmmmmmm... maybe the 'Underworld' (Lower Planes) is more like a retirement home for the gods? 
Anyway, I had forgotten that it was (devil) Nergal who had captured Elminster. That plot could have been so much better if they had kept the two Nergals the same (while at the same time, if Anshar is connected to Shar, then we have a buddy of Shar's capturing and torturing Elminster, which kind of makes cosmic sense).
Hmph... random thought. For awhile now I've been espousing the virtues of Shar and Selūne having been one deity that split (and the canon does hint at this) - perhaps I can repurpose this 'Anshar' to be the name for the original, conjoined deity? It's a lot easier than me having to keep calling her 'original Selūne' (I played with the idea of calling her Mystara or Mysharūne, among other things). Anshar would have also been more androgynous, hence the older references to it being 'male'.
Then it might be fun to spin original Nergal (just one being) as an agent of The Dark God, working his corruption into Anshar and getting her personality to split.
Another random thought - an aspect/avatar of a god growing so different from the original it splits-off (nothing new there), Buuuuut... what if it gets 'punished' and sent to the lower planes (thus becoming a fiend-lord)? Does that make any sense? That a God can continue to be a god, but one of its aspects gets corrupted and is sent to the Underworld as punishment? Thus, we can have the two Nergals be the same being, and yet, also be totally separate entities. And to take this idea a step further, what if this is how some of the Dark Gods corrupt the 'ones of Light'? It must be VERY hard to corrupt an entire (ancient) god, but what if you could do it in layers? Peal-off one aspect/avatar at a time?  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 11 Apr 2018 22:23:09 |
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Cosmology Theories
