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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Oct 2016 : 19:38:06
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You can't become a god in the Realms unless Ao elevates you. I remember the rule you're talking about, it was a 4e thing, but the best that you could achieve was becoming a demipower. And a demipower can coexist with a deity in their own pantheon, even while having the same portfolio. That said, even if Drizzt was somehow elevated to Greater Power by Ao, unless Bob gave him the exact same portfolio as Eilistraee, both of them would be able to coexist (they should be allies, by all logic, tbh. And their concepts are not even the same, as Drizzt doesn't play the role of "mothering" the whole drow, nor I picture him using Eilistraee's way to lead the drow to choose a different path--which basically consists of making them rediscover all the beauty and joy in life that they have forgotten).
Although I really don't see Drizzt, who is becoming more and more detached from the gods, choosing to become one. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 25 Oct 2016 19:42:19 |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2016 : 19:54:18
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| Irennan, you're underestimating the inconsistencies that have become worse and worse with each passing novel. I think that if the Drizzt line isn't ending here, that Drizzt becoming a god is likely, as that would make the screaming hail Bob as the greatest writer of all time. ;P |
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Shadolan
Acolyte
29 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2016 : 20:04:22
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quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy
quote:
I agree with you regarding Kimmuriel. I also have a perspective for Kane's purpose in the book, although I suspect that it'll only make you more done with him. ;P
Kane helps Drizzt achieve ascension like he himself has. Technically speaking, in terms of D&D anyway, isn't it the case that ascension is a viable, albeit difficult, path for a character to follow, and if they're successful, they can then choose to become a Divine Being or a God as a prestige class?
I mean, we've all known that Bob's refusal to acknowledge Eilistraee all this time is because she, what she embodies, and what her followers are, take away from the special snowflakeness that is Drizzt. What if it's actually greater than that, that there can't be another goodly drow diety, because Bob's plan had been to install his poster boy to be one all along? I mean, Drizzt certainly is on the path to become one now. :P
Is it shown that Drizzt gains anything by achieving such enlightenment or does it only help him overcoming his mental issues?
If it does make him stronger then I wonder if RAS wants to make him the strongest swordsman around. I hoped that Arty would remain his equal or maybe even end up slightly stronger to prove that caring about others and no longer being emotionally close can be a good source of motivation to get stronger.
Anyway, does RAS bring the matter of Drizzt possibly being a Chosen or is it sealed that he is only the Chosen of whatever is in his heart?
quote:
Originally posted by DandelionClock
Page time does surely play a role. I mean, her son gets two half sentence mentions and that was an integral part of her storyline once. (Did I overread in my haste how she learnt he was still alive?)
It looks like it was dropped along with Effron* for something more problematic, aka - crazy evil chick, lots of rape happens to her until we can all feel sorry for her, redemption after that - with some deus ex machina thrown in. That also makes the fact so icky that she was fixed by Kimmuruel, who also took advantage of her - basically her character development from back story to humbled mellowed end was men forcing themselves upon her. Unneccessary.
Instead of developing herself as a character, she gets this (victim role) and then gets fixed by one of the guys who abused her (apparently the scene wasn't supposed to be read that way, but it really wasn't ambigious anyways - Kimmuriel finds her out of her mind, then actively puts her into a dream/ trip state in which she mistakes him for Drizzt - that isn't her as the "aggressor" and him just letting it happen. That's like being left alone with a defenseless mental patient, giving them LSD, and then having sex with them knowing they won't remember).
Sorry if I am repeating myself, but these bits/ decisions really stayed a thorn in my side, reading wise.
Then you see the similarities to Cali - "crazy, haunted, bi" woman gets thrown out after trying to harm her lover - then gets her brain fixed by Kimmuriel - gets back to Entreri for a more mellow encounter. I forgot if the question was answered why she would be so emotionally cruel as to have him believe she was kidnapped and ended up god knows where. I mean, that would be a horrible and repulsive thing to do to your ex even if it was resolved the next day, instead of just saying, here, this won't work out, but I am glad we could make amends and end it on better terms. Someone help me out there, because that is worse than just staying away from the guy in my opinion.
Now, after what sno4wy posted, can someone point me to a goodly aligned woman in the books that is bi or lesbian - or does it always go hand in hand with moral ambivalence? Hm. Again, someone help me out there.
Btw, a third crazy chick is still out there after having been abused by the same baddies, sexually, too, hence rendering it all as "to show how bad he is" even more unnecessary because Doum'wielle already served that purpose, which is cheap enough - writing that kind of thing it just to make you a) sorry for murderous women and b) hate the men who do this to them (but only if they do it a certain way).
PS: Wulfgar. Was that necessary? Like I said, "Sleep with her to avoid a war... no pressure..." - here, you may want to reverse the gernders if you don't already see it... and everyone chuckles afterwards.
PPS: I loved the idea of everyone staying kind of connected in the end. But is it really a given that the host tower will be a source of stability when influenced by people/ parties with so wildly conflicting moral alignments?
*Was anyone -Amber, Afafrenfere- informed or rightfully miffed when they learnt Jarlaxle knew all this time where their lost companion was all these years (3 I think)?
LOOL, I wonder if Doum'wielle is actually bisexual too. Maybe she will also fall in love with Arty who by that time will become a full fledged psychiatrist. |
Edited by - Shadolan on 25 Oct 2016 20:07:52 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2016 : 20:05:14
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quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy
Irennan, you're underestimating the inconsistencies that have become worse and worse with each passing novel. I think that if the Drizzt line isn't ending here, that Drizzt becoming a god is likely, as that would make the screaming hail Bob as the greatest writer of all time. ;P
If Drizzt becomes a god, and RAS doesn't even involve Eilistraee in the whole thing--she would obviously help him, and be happy to have such an ally--then that would be flat out disrespectful. Eilistraee doesn't diminish Drizzt's character. He has still overcome all his challenges, he still has his whole story and all that he conquered. OTOH Eilistraee adds depth to the drow as a whole: in my eyes drow like her and her followers make Drizzt more beliavable, because if he's the only drow who has ever managed to choose good or to get free from Lolth in over 10 millennia, then that just doesn't make sense. It makes his choices come from a birth "flaw", not due to his values or intelligence. I really can't picture RAS being a spiteful person and going out of his way to throw even more crap on Eilistraee than LP already did.
Besides, I remeber RAS writing about how he was happy with his story at this point, and how putting the word "END" to it felt, so I doubt that he'd try to make a god out of Drizzt. He'd also have to leave his companions and Catti behind, he'd have to embrace something that he doesn't believe in. As I said, unless RAS truly wanted to be spiteful, there'd be no reason for that. WotC also needs to approve it, and if Drizzt becomes a god, then they will effectively no longer be able to use him in any story or whatever, which I don't see them accepting. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 25 Oct 2016 20:07:01 |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2016 : 20:13:22
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| It isn't a matter of Bob being spiteful, but the entirety of Hero reads like one giant ego-stroke (that also does a fair amount of putting down alternates to social-normative definitions of "good" and "natural"), that boosting his poster boy to illogical means wouldn't be an inconsistent path to follow. But then again, I'm trying to extrapolate based on patterns set in a series of books that have become extremely inconsistent not only with the greater setting but also with themselves, so I suppose that's an inherent tension. |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2016 : 20:14:18
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| @Shadolan: Hey, you might be onto something there. Following the trend in all of the Drizzt books so far, she's probably bisexual. As DandelionClock pointed out, all women of less than perfect purity of virtue have proclivities towards the same gender, after all. |
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Shadolan
Acolyte
29 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2016 : 20:17:02
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Sooo...Drizzt is kinda Gary Stueish in this book, yes?
But he does not beat Kane to a pulp who begs Drizzt for mercy while marveling on how Drizzt is better than him could ever be while Arty looks all jealous and all chicks including Ambergis are all googly eyed while looking at Drizzt?
Right? ^^; |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2016 : 20:19:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadolan
Sooo...Drizzt is kinda Gary Stueish in this book, yes?
But he does not beat Kane to a pulp who begs Drizzt for mercy while marveling on how Drizzt is better than him could ever be while Arty looks all jealous and all chicks including Ambergis are all googly eyed while looking at Drizzt?
Right? ^^;
KIND OF? :P
You're right. He didn't do all of that. Because this isn't Twilight, at least. Not yet, anyway. :P |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2016 : 20:20:03
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@sno4wy I get your point of view, but such a change involves too many external factors and isn't actually Bob's choice (I mean, WotC didn't even let him alter the status quo of Menzo, AFAIK).
About being spiteful, what I mean is that, if Bob elevated Drizzt while leaving Eilistraee out of that story, it'd be just the same as being spiteful (for the reasons that I've already pointed out). It'd be like saying that Eilistraee, Ed's own character, that heavily contributes to define the FR drow, is in fact irrelevant. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 25 Oct 2016 20:21:29 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2016 : 20:20:11
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I am kind of kind of hoping this is "the end", because it has to end at some point. The series has been going on for a long time. But if Drizzt DID become a deity (or demipower), I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to it -unless-- E and V were continually ignored and he overrode both of them. I wouldn't like that. It would also mean leaving the CotH behind, as pointed out. Plus, Drizzt probably doesn't want to become a god, but if he did, I would hope Drizzt, E and V would become some sort of triad, like Ilmater, Tyr (or was it Helm? lol), and Torm.
But I think it better that the story line is ended (I may or may not feel differently after I read the novel lol). |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Shadolan
Acolyte
29 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2016 : 20:25:59
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quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy
@Shadolan: Hey, you might be onto something there. Following the trend in all of the Drizzt books so far, she's probably bisexual. As DandelionClock pointed out, all women of less than perfect purity of virtue have proclivities towards the same gender, after all.
I guess if the books continue then it is only a matter of time till Doum'wielle gets her own girl on girl scene, huh? :)
Maybe with Yvonnel?
And she will attack Jarl violently for stealing her virg...errr I mean Cutter.
Just a prediction lol. |
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DandelionClock
Seeker
67 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2016 : 20:41:51
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I see a crack fic in the near future. It could be cathartic.
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Shadolan
Acolyte
29 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2016 : 20:46:06
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quote:
Originally posted by DandelionClock
I see a crack fic in the near future. It could be cathartic.
Nothing to fear bro for Dr. Kim and Dr. Arty are there to bring their expertise in fixing any and all issues that crazy bisexual chicks might have :P
Just some brain surgery and a few talking seasons with Dr. Arty and those chicks will be like new! :)
And Doum'wielle will no longer need to keep searching for the biggest/sharpest..."sword". |
Edited by - Shadolan on 25 Oct 2016 20:47:49 |
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DandelionClock
Seeker
67 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2016 : 21:00:34
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| Seeing them becomes all the rage in the nobler circles of Luskan after Lady Avelyere boasted about her regular sessions - while attending a high society ball wearing a spectacular sparkly dress. Business is thriving until listening to too many tragic childhood tales, and every patient ending up with an infatuation with him, leads to Arty deciding he's going back to his evil ways, grab all their winnings, and stab someone on the way out to drive the point home. |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2016 : 21:09:00
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The thing is, in Hero, Bob is changing what defines FR drow. Here is a quote from the book, one of many, that reflects this:
"She was intrigued by Drizzt. She had seen the same possibilities of a wider and grander philosophy, one based on a love of others as much as, or more than, a love of oneself. Drizzt’s dedication to a greater cause than his own gain did hint at something from which most drow were starved."
It isn't that Drizzt's life and deeds have inspired oppressed male drow in an aggressively matriarchal society, he's also moved the fanatic females that uphold the authority of their society. When the embodiment of the pinnacle of what it means to be a Lolthite in Menzoberranzan actively rejects Lolth, sets out to the surface, and wants to find more meaning in life beyond pleasing herself, well... I'm really not sure what else to say about that. |
Edited by - sno4wy on 25 Oct 2016 21:09:28 |
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Shadolan
Acolyte
29 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2016 : 21:12:16
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quote:
Originally posted by DandelionClock
Seeing them becomes all the rage in the nobler circles of Luskan after Lady Avelyere boasted about her regular sessions - while attending a high society ball wearing a spectacular sparkly dress. Business is thriving until listening to too many tragic childhood tales, and every patient ending up with an infatuation with him, leads to Arty deciding he's going back to his evil ways, grab all their winnings, and stab someone on the way out to drive the point home.
Well, status quo must be kept so Arty will go evil sooner or later :P
Btw there is still the ultimate crazy chick out there :Valindra the lich.
Even Kim couldn't fix her and it was hinted that it would take the power of the Aboletic Sovereignty to heal her.
Just the challenge Arty needs!! Could she be bisexual too? Plus Arty will give ARKLEM the cuckold treatment this time :P
Though such "date" might drive Arty insane too. ^^ |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2016 : 21:14:27
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| Is it still cuckolding if Arklem is dead? I mean, more dead, that is? Or is his soul stuck in a phylactery somewhere still, I can't remember... |
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Shadolan
Acolyte
29 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2016 : 21:18:14
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quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy
The thing is, in Hero, Bob is changing what defines FR drow. Here is a quote from the book, one of many, that reflects this:
"She was intrigued by Drizzt. She had seen the same possibilities of a wider and grander philosophy, one based on a love of others as much as, or more than, a love of oneself. Drizzt’s dedication to a greater cause than his own gain did hint at something from which most drow were starved."
It isn't that Drizzt's life and deeds have inspired oppressed male drow in an aggressively matriarchal society, he's also moved the fanatic females that uphold the authority of their society. When the embodiment of the pinnacle of what it means to be a Lolthite in Menzoberranzan actively rejects Lolth, sets out to the surface, and wants to find more meaning in life beyond pleasing herself, well... I'm really not sure what else to say about that.
Don't you worry. Unless RAS decides to make Drizzt less "special"/Gary Stueish then there is no way that more drow will suddenly turn good for real.
It will just be like with Tos'sun. A temporary break and back to baddie business.
Yvonnel will be evil before you can say "Kane doesn't kill. He just allows those whom he had not killed yet to live". Chuck Norris style. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2016 : 21:20:21
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@sno4wy Ah ok, I see what you meant now. It is cool that Drizzt inspired something like that in someone like Yvonnel, and I'm fine with that, tbh (I'm only surprised that she rejected Lolth). Yvonnel is her own person, tho, or did Drizzt shake the whole foundation of the Lolthite cult?
I would have really liked to see Eilistraee play some role in all of this, especially after LP, but w/e. At least Ed is trying to give her something after LP. I'm curious if the "side-plot" about her appearance in Waterdeep and her followers befriending the city will have any followup. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 25 Oct 2016 21:21:21 |
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DandelionClock
Seeker
67 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2016 : 21:23:06
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quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy
The thing is, in Hero, Bob is changing what defines FR drow. Here is a quote from the book, one of many, that reflects this:
"She was intrigued by Drizzt. She had seen the same possibilities of a wider and grander philosophy, one based on a love of others as much as, or more than, a love of oneself. Drizzt’s dedication to a greater cause than his own gain did hint at something from which most drow were starved."
It isn't that Drizzt's life and deeds have inspired oppressed male drow in an aggressively matriarchal society, he's also moved the fanatic females that uphold the authority of their society. When the embodiment of the pinnacle of what it means to be a Lolthite in Menzoberranzan actively rejects Lolth, sets out to the surface, and wants to find more meaning in life beyond pleasing herself, well... I'm really not sure what else to say about that.
Yeah, I am still confused by that. I don't know what to make of it. Effectively, this is what convinced me that this is going to be the last FR novel, becuase this doesn't make sense -upending part of the established world *because*- unless they said, "You're the last one out, do what you want with the decoration and don't forget to switch off the light on your way out."
Nothing in regard to Menzo/ Drow society in the last two/ three books was consistent with what we've seen of it during the XX books before, or even in itself, in the sense of an actual, believable development.
Btw, is it weird to see Drizzt described as if he was his people's Ghandi? He wasn't! Until he went back in Maestro, he'd left Drow society behind him. Heroic reputation - yeah. But this? Until he was used as a weapon against Demogorgon in the most underwhelming/ artificial fight scene ever, he didn't fight *for Drow society* at all. And that society didn't exactly come across as having a Perestroika era, either. |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2016 : 21:25:58
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quote:
Originally posted by DandelionClock
Nothing in regard to Menzo/ Drow society in the last two/ three books was consistent with what we've seen of it during the XX books before, or even in itself, in the sense of an actual, believable development.
I would go so far as to say that that extends beyond Menzo/Drow society. The forced and contrived "development" of Artemis, the idiot ball syndrome that Jarlaxle can't shake... |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2016 : 21:28:04
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| Wait, so Drizzt actually did upset the foundation of the Lolthite society? He was turned into a champion of all drow, Eilistraee-style, without her even getting mentioned? Eh... |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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DandelionClock
Seeker
67 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2016 : 21:29:49
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...and the epilogue.
The epilogue made me think: There. This is the dark twist. Loth has placed a dark and ironic curse upon Drizzt: No one he loves can ever truly die. The first rounds everyone will think this is splendid. But let a thousand years pass... (omninous music) ....a few more lives lived on repeat, the seemingly spared wife, friend, companion change ever so subtly by their lives overlived... *dramatic change in light* ... and it turns into a twisted horror tale. |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2016 : 21:30:56
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quote:
Originally posted by DandelionClock
...and the epilogue.
The epilogue made me think: There. This is the dark twist. Loth has placed a dark and ironic curse upon Drizzt: No one he loves can ever truly die. The first rounds everyone will think this is splendid. But let a thousand years pass... (omninous music) ....a few more lives lived on repeat, the seemingly spared wife, friend, companion change ever so subtly by their lives overlived... *dramatic change in light* ... and it turns into a twisted horror tale.
Right??
I'm seriously boggling at people who think that the ending set a great precedent for many books to come. I mean, there's a reason that stories end with "Happily Ever After", when the prince and princess kiss. |
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Shadolan
Acolyte
29 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2016 : 21:34:11
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I wonder if Ellistrae will be killed in one of RAS books(if the line continues) or if her existence will be forever ignored altogether.
Btw isn't Yvonnel in love with Drizzt too? |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2016 : 21:39:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadolan
I wonder if Ellistrae will be killed in one of RAS books(if the line continues) or if her existence will be forever ignored altogether.
She has just managed to return to life... besides, that decision is up to WotC, not RAS. I think that he would rather continue to ignore her and her brother forever. Ed has included news and tidbits about Eilistraee in his latest two books, tho. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2016 : 21:40:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadolan
I wonder if Ellistrae will be killed in one of RAS books(if the line continues) or if her existence will be forever ignored altogether.
Btw isn't Yvonnel in love with Drizzt too?
To not include a character at all is more dismissive than including and killing the character. The latter option requires acknowledgement of the character's existence in the first place.
It certainly seems that Yvonnel is in love with Drizzt as well. Bob's never been good at writing multi-dimensional women. It's always been the case that you can predict whether a female character will live or die based on how beautiful she is. The level of depth to a female character also seems to be associated with whether she's in love with the poster boy. |
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DandelionClock
Seeker
67 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2016 : 21:47:59
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| Thinking of Dorigen, whose most if not sole redeeming act apparently was loving Cadderly (in whatever way). That means she's good by association, no matter what her past crimes are (she didn't live though). I didn't even dislike the story over it, it just comes to mind. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2016 : 21:53:22
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Since this is the (supposedly) last novel, perhaps the ending is RAS' final way of giving fans (or at least some fans) what they want? Many (admittedly myself included) have been clambering for it, or at least a story about him.
Again, I will have to draw my own conclusions (my copy should be arriving any time now), but I am miffed about Eilistraee being completely ignored. This goes back to my issue with Maestro. Drizzt can be seen as -a- beacon of hope, but to be painted as -the- beacon, whereas Eilistraee, and even Vhaeraun to an extent, have been such for centuries...
Going back to the characters' sexualities, maybe Jarlaxle and Zak had/will have a relationship ;) Actually, I would support that. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Shadolan
Acolyte
29 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2016 : 21:54:13
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I recall how Yvonnel told Drizzt that she was willing to make Drizzt the king of Menzo if he agreed to love her.
Was she serious?
Wouldn't Lloth take all of her powers away if she tried to bring down the matriarchy and make Drizzt the city's BOSS?
Hmmm... |
Edited by - Shadolan on 25 Oct 2016 21:56:26 |
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Hero [Spoilers]
