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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Aug 2016 : 01:04:22
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
The idea of driders being the ultimate punishment was always stupid. One of the few consistent standards among Lolth worshippers was the sacred nature of spiders. They are the only creatures that drow don't torture, kill, or use as bait in their schemes.
Why "ultimate"? There can be worse things. The drider transformation is the worst of common.
And as far as Lolth is concerned, this may be not only punishment, but a corrective measure (for the failed individual) and even acknowledgement. With bonus training wheel for the rest.
Remember, in the end it's all about three things: natural selection, faith and collecting souls.
If one drow fails to become sufficiently spider-like on the inside, well... there's a way to bring the point closer to home.
The driderhood is reserved for the drow who deliberately and to a serious extent go against the way of Lolth. This cannot be allowed to continue - but on the other hand, there's a strong individual who presumes to stand alone... thus such a transgressor is removed from the society and gene pool, but not wasted.
quote:
Another consistent standard in drow society is craving power for its own sake, and being willing to do anything for it. Thus, being morphed into a giant half spider that's significantly more powerful can't possibly be a punishment.
Indeed, how strange - why the drow don't habitually turn themselves into something huge, like ogres? 
You're totally missing my point. It doesn't matter whether it's the ultimate punishment or not. Why is being turned into a half spider a punishment at all for a race that worships spiders?
Shar turned her faithful into shades as a reward for good service. Devils get promoted into more powerful devils as a reward. Far Realm cultists and warlocks can eventually be turned into aberrations as a reward.
What Lolth does is the equivalent of Asmodeus turning his cultists into pit fiends as a punishment. It makes no sense that you would be transformed into something more like your god as a punishment. And as we know, Lolth herself often takes on the form of a giant half spider and is obsessed with spiders. If you're a Lolth worshipper, how is it a valid punishment to be made more like Lolth? |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2016 : 01:12:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
The idea of driders being the ultimate punishment was always stupid. One of the few consistent standards among Lolth worshippers was the sacred nature of spiders. They are the only creatures that drow don't torture, kill, or use as bait in their schemes.
Why "ultimate"? There can be worse things. The drider transformation is the worst of common.
And as far as Lolth is concerned, this may be not only punishment, but a corrective measure (for the failed individual) and even acknowledgement. With bonus training wheel for the rest.
Remember, in the end it's all about three things: natural selection, faith and collecting souls.
If one drow fails to become sufficiently spider-like on the inside, well... there's a way to bring the point closer to home.
The driderhood is reserved for the drow who deliberately and to a serious extent go against the way of Lolth. This cannot be allowed to continue - but on the other hand, there's a strong individual who presumes to stand alone... thus such a transgressor is removed from the society and gene pool, but not wasted.
quote:
Another consistent standard in drow society is craving power for its own sake, and being willing to do anything for it. Thus, being morphed into a giant half spider that's significantly more powerful can't possibly be a punishment.
Indeed, how strange - why the drow don't habitually turn themselves into something huge, like ogres?
You're totally missing my point. It doesn't matter whether it's the ultimate punishment or not. Why is being turned into a half spider a punishment at all for a race that worships spiders?
Shar turned her faithful into shades as a reward for good service. Devils get promoted into more powerful devils as a reward. Far Realm cultists and warlocks can eventually be turned into aberrations as a reward.
What Lolth does is the equivalent of Asmodeus turning his cultists into pit fiends as a punishment. It makes no sense that you would be transformed into something more like your god as a punishment. And as we know, Lolth herself often takes on the form of a giant half spider and is obsessed with spiders. If you're a Lolth worshipper, how is it a valid punishment to be made more like Lolth?
As I recall Driders transformation the punishment was becoming ugly, not becoming half-spider.
As a Drider you become an outcast, the Spider half form a reminder of your failure. A Drow transformed into a Drider is an outcast to be shunned and at times being killed, because you failed as a good faithful of Lolth.
Is it logical? Most would say not, however Lolth is not considered a very logical deity. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Xanthias
Acolyte
9 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2016 : 21:25:29
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Actually, the power Lolth holds over so many drow has been bugging me since forever.
Granted, the real world offers examples of some exceptionally horrible practices and tyrannical regimes lasting surprisingly long, but we are talking millennia here, and millennia of such unmitigated horror, that even the worst real-life dictators look friendly in comparison.
Even a favored highborn priestess is nothing more than a plaything for her goddess, subject to her whims at all times. Dominating others beneath her in the social hierarchy (who are even worse off) does not make her less of a slave herself.
In theory, that’s where Masked Traitors (plus secret followers of Eilistraee, Kiaransalee, etc.) enter the picture. But somehow, they are still disappointingly rare, and, despite having opportunity after opportunity presented to them, and potential allies aplenty, constantly fail when it matters most?
They don’t even get one tenth of the spotlight they deserve. It’s always lolth this, Lolth that. Even when followers of Eili, or - wonder of wonders! - the Masked Lord, get some screen time, caring about their efforts is difficult even for me. The status quo will hold, that’s a foregone conclusion, so why even bother? Yawn.
And the Masked Traitors are such an interesting concept, too. Forget background noise like Shakti Hunzrin, think instead of the damage one of those could inflict if she acted intelligently.
A superpowered morally ambiguous spy destroying, say, Menzoberranzan from inside (not trying to, but actually accomplishing her goal, after all those botched attempts) would have been a breath of fresh air. Lolth actually losing in a substantial way, would have merited friggin’ fireworks and champagne. But… No.
(Ched Nasad? Not even worth the trouble.)
Just imagine something like what WotSQ should have been, but from the perspective of secret vhaeraunites. Who are actually victorious for once. Think of the chaos, the layers of deception, of traitor priestesses using their insider knowledge to strike the system when and where it hurts most. Think of the matrons finally losing control and actually facing the chaos they profess to worship.
Imagine Gromph realizing he chose the losing side.
Imagine the status quo going down the drain in the most exciting way possible.
Okay, rant mode /off.
Spells like the one discussed in this topic are cool, but certainly not the coolest thing about followers of Vhaeraun. They are change. In the middle of one of the most stagnant and oppressive societies in fantasy literature. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2016 : 22:22:30
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Oh man, I won't go there. I've commented on this so many times that I must sound like a broken record by now. Because of the change that they offer, Eilistraee and Vhaeraun should have both gained many more followers, but w/e. You do have a point that whenever Eilistraee or Vhaeraun appear in the picture, they ultimately end up losing, and their few victories are merely pyrrhic and always transient. Plus they came off as really lame at the end of WotSQ, to me at least (and that's from someone that loves them).
WotC like to downplay them. Now that they seem to have become friends after their return, you'd think that they should be up to something, but if it wasn't for Ed sprinkling lore about them, we'd have almost nothing if not a few words in the new sourcebook (and that's despite the fact that the focus has been on the drow for quite a bit of time during 5e). Bleh. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 27 Aug 2016 22:23:03 |
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Vhaeraun's Gift
