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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Aug 2016 : 12:44:53
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I recall reading a story about a doppleganger masquerading as a shopkeeper, woodcutter, merchant or tavern-keeper somewhere, but I cannot remember the source. Pretty sure it was FR canon. Does this ring any bells for anyone?
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Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Edited by - Fellfire on 16 Aug 2016 14:51:08
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2016 : 14:43:11
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No bell ringing, but I can definitely see a doppleganger who was maybe raised by humans because his own family was killed, but the people didn't feel that the child should be punished for the transgressions of its parents. So, they raise it amongst humans, and it adopts a human guise which grows over time. Maybe the person that raised it also had a child that was raised alongside the doppelganger. This child would even become a future lord of waterdeep, and whenever he's off doing the duties of the Hidden Lords, the doppelganger covers for him. Of course, when some of the other lords eventually find out about this, it is considered a bit unsettling to them... and it strains some relationships amongst the lords because they want to see the doppelganger dead after the transgressions done by doppelgangers long ago within the bounds of Waterdeep.
There also were in Eberron, a race known as changelings which were descended from doppelgangers. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2016 : 15:30:45
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| This is definitely feasible. Members of any "evil" race can be "good" or behave like normal citizens. Just look at Drizzt for proof. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2016 : 20:25:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
I recall reading a story about a doppleganger masquerading as a shopkeeper, woodcutter, merchant or tavern-keeper somewhere, but I cannot remember the source. Pretty sure it was FR canon. Does this ring any bells for anyone?
Volo's Guide to Waterdeep revealed that a popular festhall employed doppelgangers, and the Unseen are a group of doppelgangers and greater doppelgangers operating in Waterdeep. One of the Lords was replaced by a greater doppelganger; that Lord was a shopkeep, IIRC.
That storyline was nixed by the Spellplague, and I don't think anything came of it.
In one of my (non-canon) Lords of Waterdeep articles, I had a psionicist who was killed by a greater doppelganger while disembodied; as soon as the mirrorkin assumed the psycher's form, the latter attacked and took over the body -- leaving the mind of a human psionicist in the body of a greater doppelganger. Hence, the Unseen were infiltrated by an agent of the Lords of Waterdeep. |
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moonbeast
Senior Scribe
USA
522 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2016 : 08:52:00
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Doppelgangers, by their nature, are opportunists. Opportunism doesn't necessarily translate to "evil being". In my view of D&D alignments, they are opportunists just like the Classic D&D Thief (Rogue class now). Thieves are not always evil, and Classic D&D alignments traditionally pegged most thieves as "Neutrals". They are opportunistic, simply taking advantage of opportunities to remove wealth from others, perhaps doing so in order to feed their families? Is stealing from rich nobles an evil deed if you were simply doing so in order to care for your family? Not evil at all.
Robin Hood was a "thief", an outlaw and a bandit. But he was traditionally lumped with the "good guys".
So yeah, I would think that non-evil (true Neutral) Doppelgangers exist in fair numbers. They are simply opportunistic, stealthy, and deceptive individuals, taking advantage of their shape-shifting abilities in order to better their lot in life. It does not mean they have evil intentions in their hearts.
P.S. — I'm doing a write-up of a "Doppelganger" city that is hidden somewhere in the Shadowfell. Yes, I understand that according to D&D lore that Doppelgangers don't build cities themselves. That's fine, because this city is merely a city that was built by another race of humanoids but was taken over by Dopplegangers and Changelings in centuries past.
But here is the marvelous twist. Occulis, the City of Changelings….. is now (unbeknownst to the Doppelganger-majority citizens themselves) ruled by a Rakshasa usurper who himself is an extremely powerful shapeshifter, and Rakshasha has been disguising himself as one of the Doppelgangers ever since he claimed the rulership of Occulis.
Occulis, the City of Changelings (in the Shadowfell) has a long tradition of commerce and lucrative black market trade. There are numerous clans and guilds of Shapeshifters here, the majority of them are doppelgangers or their kin. There is definitely a robust "human trafficking" trade here, hundreds of infants and children abducted from Human families missing from Faerun…. can be found alive here.
The Rakshasa's true identity is only known by one other, a Doppelganger leiutenant, and thus this Doppel is a traitor to his own race. The Rakshasa's magical powers and shapeshifter ability is top-notch, not even the most experienced and elder Doppelganger guildmasters can uncover his true identity. However, something is amiss. In the past couple years since this ruler's ascent to power, his behavior has been very tyrannical, his laws and edicts quite strict and counter-productive…. which is against the loose free-wheeling hedonistic traditions of Doppelganger society in Occulis. The Doppel guild elders are suspicious. Who is this new governor? At first we thought he was just one of us. Is he really one of us? Or is he something else?
That's when the Adventuring Party comes in. The heroes are hired by the disturbed Doppelgangers to uncover the masquerade. The adventure is for higher-level PCs, ones that are capable of taking on and have the abilities to unmask the true identity of a legendary top-level Rakshasa baron.
The reward is great for the heroes. Should they succeed in this quest…. the Doppel community will promise (as if their promise means much?) never to bother, mimic or intentionally deceive the heroes ever again for the remainder of their lives. And maybe one of the heroes' young relatives (a beloved nephew) was abducted a few months ago…. he will be safely returned by the Doppels as an additional reward.
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2016 : 13:57:41
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quote:
Originally posted by moonbeast
Doppelgangers, by their nature, are opportunists. Opportunism doesn't necessarily translate to "evil being". In my view of D&D alignments, they are opportunists just like the Classic D&D Thief (Rogue class now). Thieves are not always evil, and Classic D&D alignments traditionally pegged most thieves as "Neutrals". They are opportunistic, simply taking advantage of opportunities to remove wealth from others, perhaps doing so in order to feed their families? Is stealing from rich nobles an evil deed if you were simply doing so in order to care for your family? Not evil at all.
Robin Hood was a "thief", an outlaw and a bandit. But he was traditionally lumped with the "good guys".
So yeah, I would think that non-evil (true Neutral) Doppelgangers exist in fair numbers. They are simply opportunistic, stealthy, and deceptive individuals, taking advantage of their shape-shifting abilities in order to better their lot in life. It does not mean they have evil intentions in their hearts.
P.S. — I'm doing a write-up of a "Doppelganger" city that is hidden somewhere in the Shadowfell. Yes, I understand that according to D&D lore that Doppelgangers don't build cities themselves. That's fine, because this city is merely a city that was built by another race of humanoids but was taken over by Dopplegangers and Changelings in centuries past.
But here is the marvelous twist. Occulis, the City of Changelings….. is now (unbeknownst to the Doppelganger-majority citizens themselves) ruled by a Rakshasa usurper who himself is an extremely powerful shapeshifter, and Rakshasha has been disguising himself as one of the Doppelgangers ever since he claimed the rulership of Occulis.
Occulis, the City of Changelings (in the Shadowfell) has a long tradition of commerce and lucrative black market trade. There are numerous clans and guilds of Shapeshifters here, the majority of them are doppelgangers or their kin. There is definitely a robust "human trafficking" trade here, hundreds of infants and children abducted from Human families missing from Faerun…. can be found alive here.
The Rakshasa's true identity is only known by one other, a Doppelganger leiutenant, and thus this Doppel is a traitor to his own race. The Rakshasa's magical powers and shapeshifter ability is top-notch, not even the most experienced and elder Doppelganger guildmasters can uncover his true identity. However, something is amiss. In the past couple years since this ruler's ascent to power, his behavior has been very tyrannical, his laws and edicts quite strict and counter-productive…. which is against the loose free-wheeling hedonistic traditions of Doppelganger society in Occulis. The Doppel guild elders are suspicious. Who is this new governor? At first we thought he was just one of us. Is he really one of us? Or is he something else?
That's when the Adventuring Party comes in. The heroes are hired by the disturbed Doppelgangers to uncover the masquerade. The adventure is for higher-level PCs, ones that are capable of taking on and have the abilities to unmask the true identity of a legendary top-level Rakshasa baron.
The reward is great for the heroes. Should they succeed in this quest…. the Doppel community will promise (as if their promise means much?) never to bother, mimic or intentionally deceive the heroes ever again for the remainder of their lives. And maybe one of the heroes' young relatives (a beloved nephew) was abducted a few months ago…. he will be safely returned by the Doppels as an additional reward.
Liking this concept. Shapeshifters messing with shapeshifters could make for an interesting mix of things. Throw in the Malaugrym, who are also on the plane of shadows, who may be secretly inserted into these doppelgangers.
Throw in members of the night parade and night hags both possibly coming to this city for young children to warp. Hell, throw in shadow elves as well from the old 2nd edition ravenloft shadow rift supplement (arguably the best version of the Unseelie Court, but one I'd say has been split by planar issues such that there is the Court in Ravenloft and the Court with Auril as its Queen.... or simply having it have multiple Kings and Queens and being split into multiple groupings of Unseelie fey). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1625 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2016 : 20:45:33
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| Regular Doppelgangers usually listed as true neutral, not evil,but greater doppelgangers are usually evil. I think of Greater Doppelgangers as a purer strain of Batrachi Doppelganger, like the desendants of Batrachi Lords, where as regular doppelgangers have more diluted blood, mixed with other races like humans more. |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1625 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2016 : 20:47:51
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| A Doppelganger Feasthall, where the coinlasses/lads can take any form you want, best.feasthall.ever. |
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Owesstaer
Acolyte
Luxembourg
30 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2016 : 19:30:02
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I read something like that recently too. I do not remember the srource though, but what I remmber is that it is somewhere in the Daggerford area. Maybe Bowshot. So possible sources include Volos guide to the Sword Coast or the Questions to Eric L. Boyd thread (around pages 30-40 there was lots of info about his Under Illefarn Remake.
Edit: confirm it's the entry in this very Forum about Ulmyn Andalor, page 35 in Questions for Eric L. Boyd |
Edited by - Owesstaer on 21 Aug 2016 19:35:49 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2016 : 21:15:39
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There have been several debate scrolls here about what constitutes "evil" in roleplaying. I personally have never subscribed to the idea that other races that kill humans are necessarily evil for doing so. Predators are not evil for killing their prey.
For me this is where dopplegangers fall. Humans and demihumans are the prey they have evolved to hunt. |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2016 : 23:17:58
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| Thanks, Owesstaer. Will check it out. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2016 : 23:49:17
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| That could very well be the doppleganger in question. However, I could have sworn it was written in short-story format and the fact that the woodcutter was actually a doppleganger but had gained his persona tragically, but peacefully was not revealed until the end. I will check VGttSC and google the name. Thanks again, Owesstaer. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Edited by - Fellfire on 21 Aug 2016 23:51:09 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2427 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2016 : 16:31:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
Non-evil Doppleganger
They're quite often True Neutral of either scavenger or mercenary sort.
For example.
quote:
I recall reading a story about a doppleganger masquerading as a shopkeeper, woodcutter, merchant or tavern-keeper somewhere, but I cannot remember the source. Pretty sure it was FR canon. Does this ring any bells for anyone?
They can be masquerading as anyone, that's the whole point. 
Oh, also there was a Forging the Realms article about one of their trades -
quote:
Doppelgangers who patronize adventurers lurk near them, eavesdropping and sometimes more boldly spying, using their shapeshifting abilities to pose as servants and passersby and temporary hirelings, from the stable boys who take charge of horses to servers in Waterdhavian clubs. They listen without seeming to, using the doppelganger trait of focusing their hearing on one individual (or one small group of individuals, who have their heads together). Then they act on what they hear, striving for deftness and a light, far from greedy touch, so as not to alert the adventurers to their existence.
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Non-evil Doppleganger
